Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

[BERT 4350]

2 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Btw, the reason the Airbus “barks” at the gate is that the Power Transfer Unit is trying to keep green and yellow hydraulic pressure up, and uses the higher pressure system to charge the lower system anytime the difference exceeds 500 psi. 

With regard to trim, RATS etc...

There are pressure sensors in the overhead panel that will unlock the flight deck door if they sense a loss of pressurization. You can trick them by blowing on them and unlock the door. It’s a favorite trick to show newbie FA’s, and most think you are trying to fool them. I showed one and she was delighted, but then went out loudly telling the two FA’s guarding the door (and any passenger in earshot) that the pilot showed her the trick to blow on the thingy....

Oops. 

I got a thingy she can blow on.

[GringoSalado 1651]

https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1108415427682729984

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by GringoSalado
Well shit

[FondrenRoad 4378]

57 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1108415427682729984

 

Just saw on ABC News that the same plane had the same problem before.  Pilot and co-pilot couldn't figure it out.  3rd pilot riding in jump seat saved the day.  

[Telegraph_it 3353]

3 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Just saw on ABC News that the same plane had the same problem before.  Pilot and co-pilot couldn't figure it out.  3rd pilot riding in jump seat saved the day.  

How in the hell was there not a company wide email sent out highlighting this!?! Probably because the third pilot had to take action and better to not have that come out. 

[Chewbacca 7729]

On 3/11/2019 at 9:15 PM, Bernard said:

Not sure what that means in this context. 

Bernard

It means DaysOff is a union douche.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

9 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

How in the hell was there not a company wide email sent out highlighting this!?! Probably because the third pilot had to take action and better to not have that come out. 

Yep, airline is fucked.  So is Boeing though.  The graphical recreation looks like a rough ride.  Hard to believe they kept a lid on it.  Anyone who survived a plane ride with that type of motion would have been all over social media talking about it.  But then again, maybe they were and it just didn't have time to get around.  The plane actually crashed the very next day.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed

"That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard."

 

And you're right about the company's thoughts on the 3rd pilot.

"The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported."

Edited March 20, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[Sbbruin 21704]

 

1 hour ago, BERT said:

I got a thingy she can blow on.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Sbbruin

[XYZ 2154]

And unless I missunderstood the surly pilots in previous pages, what the pilot in the jump seat knew, more or less every experienced pilot in the US knows.

[Fozzz 152]

Poor Boeing.

Quote

Now, in the wake of the two deadly crashes involving the same jet model, Boeing will make one of those safety features standard as part of a fix to get the planes in the air again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html

[retread 2951]

14 hours ago, XYZ said:

And unless I missunderstood the surly pilots in previous pages, what the pilot in the jump seat knew, more or less every experienced pilot in the US knows.

DaysOff posted this a few pages back

On 3/17/2019 at 11:45 PM, DaysOff said:

Quote

On 3/17/2019 at 11:38 PM, Bobby_Batronic said:
So, just finished talking with a friend at SWA....
Apparently the runaway stab procedure is no longer a Memory Item. The procedure is still on the Quick Reference Card. 
Sooo, both crews may not have had the knowledge to turn the stab cutout switches off. There’s only something like 4-5 procedures on that card so you’d like to think someone gave it a once over, but the institutional/tribal knowledge of an airline operating on type of airplane for years, and what to do in some situations may not have existed. On this I stand very much corrected. 

It was a memory item when I was first typed. Then it went away. As of yesterday it's back for us.

Memory item or not the runaway stab trim procedures for Boeings has been the same for decades. MCAS installed or not it fixes your problem.

 

[Huckleberry 32694]

Like I said previously, I absolutely respect the pride in their work that the pilots on this thread are displaying. I'm glad that most pilots feel that way and it's absolutely reassuring as an airline passenger.

However, that does not excuse the terrible engineering and management decisions and performance that appear to have contributed to these disasters. I hope every single professional pilot in the world considers this 100% the pilots' fault. Just like I hope every single aeronautics and avionics engineer considers it a 100% engineering failure.

[C-Man 27029]

13 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

However, that does not excuse the terrible engineering and management decisions and performance that appear to have contributed to these disasters. I hope every single professional pilot in the world considers this 100% the pilots' fault. Just like I hope every single aeronautics and avionics engineer considers it a 100% engineering failure.

This is where I'm at.

Maybe this is a dumb question -- and maybe it's been answered already -- but what was causing the malfunction in the first place? Is that common? The MCAS kicking on is what ultimately caused these two planes to dive straight into the ground and kill everybody aboard. We know the "fix" is to flip a switch to turn the feature off but what was causing the error readings that activated the dive-inducing maneuver in the first place?

[Huckleberry 32694]

Angle of Attack sensor was giving inaccurate readings to the computer (or the computer was interpreting it incorrectly, I haven't seen that explained in detail yet). That's why I said earlier that this is a pretty fundamental feature of aviation automation that should have a near-zero error rate. But the pilots here have reported facing the issue multiple times in their careers and call that pretty standard across the pilot population.

As critical as the angle of attack is to flying, it's frightening to me as a passenger and unacceptable to me as an engineer for this failure to be so common.

[retread 2951]

From that NYT article https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html

Quote

That software system takes readings from two vanelike devices called angle of attack sensors that determine how much the plane’s nose is pointing up or down relative to oncoming air. When MCAS detects that the plane is pointing up at a dangerous angle, it can automatically push down the nose of the plane in an effort to prevent the plane from stalling.

Boeing’s optional safety features, in part, could have helped the pilots detect any erroneous readings. One of the optional upgrades, the angle of attack indicator, displays the readings of the two sensors. The other, called a disagree light, is activated if those sensors are at odds with one another.

Boeing will soon update the MCAS software, and will also make the disagree light standard on all new 737 Max planes, according to a person familiar with the changes, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they have not been made public. The angle of attack indicator will remain an option that airlines can buy. 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by retread

[Pasken 1309]

1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

Angle of Attack sensor was giving inaccurate readings to the computer (or the computer was interpreting it incorrectly, I haven't seen that explained in detail yet). That's why I said earlier that this is a pretty fundamental feature of aviation automation that should have a near-zero error rate. But the pilots here have reported facing the issue multiple times in their careers and call that pretty standard across the pilot population.

 As critical as the angle of attack is to flying, it's frightening to me as a passenger and unacceptable to me as an engineer for this failure to be so common.

The computer was interpreting the information correctly but the information from the physical sensor was wrong. As others have said, it should be standard to have redundancy in the sensors and it should be a standard notification when information conflicts. That sensor is outside the plane and interacts with the real world. It's going to need repair every now and then. 

IMO, more pressure should be on the airline for why the sensor wasn't repaired properly when the issue was first noted. In the past, airline timekeepers have put planes back in the air that weren't air ready to keep the airline from losing money and it's resulted in hull losses. It really comes down to the culture of the airline and who is running the show. A NationAir plane was low on tire pressure and maintenance couldn't find any nitrogen to inflate it with. The boss said, to hell with it and the tire caught fire on the hot Saudi runways and killed over 200 people. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Pasken

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

Angle of Attack sensor was giving inaccurate readings to the computer (or the computer was interpreting it incorrectly, I haven't seen that explained in detail yet). That's why I said earlier that this is a pretty fundamental feature of aviation automation that should have a near-zero error rate. But the pilots here have reported facing the issue multiple times in their careers and call that pretty standard across the pilot population.

As critical as the angle of attack is to flying, it's frightening to me as a passenger and unacceptable to me as an engineer for this failure to be so common.

I was unaware that it was a single source failure, that Boeing offered dual AOA inputs and an error annunciation, but didn’t make it standard, that the two airlines in question bought the single source option, and that the stab cutout memory item had been removed from many memory items list. 

 

The bus has 3 AOA vanes. Loss of one is listed as “crew awareness”. Loss of two and uncommanded AOA protection activation required turning off two Air Data Computers to get the plane into Alternate Law so that the AOA protection can be overcome. But this is what is known as an Ops Bulletin, and it’s common knowledge what to do if that situation occurs. As the stab cutout switches should have been common m kwowledge in the Max’s. 

[Pasken 1309]

There should be an international regulator especially with all these new airlines. An investigation into a TransAsia Airways Flight included putting other TransAsia pilots in a simulator setup to recreate the conditions of the TransAsia Airways Flight 222 crash and all the pilots showed the same disregard for the set procedures as the pilots in the crashed plane. It's a culture issue.

I think it makes people feel better to blame the planes because that can be more easily changed but the reality is that any lazy or bad pilot or maintenance worker can down the plane. Emery Flight 17 crashed because a maintenance worker forgot to put a pin back in the end of a bolt. 

 

I'm glad the MAXes have the anti-stall system because it is the single thing I fear the most when flying. You would be shocked to see how many people actually survive plane crashes when the plane has some horizontal velocity but NO ONE survives stall crashes. The loss of life in these two incidents was unfortunate but they will (as all crashes always have) serve to make flying safer and hopefully weed out a culture of upselling safety. Make the mis-match indicator standard. Create a global aviation safety group.

[Pasken 1309]

HOPEFULLY, the Dept. of Transportation also goes to car manufacturers and stops them from only including life saving safety technology on the highest trims. I bought the Touring trim for the Honda CRV a couple years ago because it was the only one with assisted breaking. It has 3d sensors and will brake for you if it thinks you are going to hit someone. Think about how many lives and time lost from highway crashes if that was standard on all vehicles. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

As usual there’s a lengthy accident chain that could have been stopped at any given link. 

[retread 2951]

I was reading about some other plane crashes, and stall is a problem in several instances. For BB, DaysOff, and other pilots, what levels of redundancy are there below the AoA sensors (MCAS system). Once you turn MCAS off due to faulty AoA sensors, what instrumentation do you use to find/maintain a good AoA?

[Rusty Shackelford 414]

Poor Boeing.

Now, in the wake of the two deadly crashes involving the same jet model, Boeing will make one of those safety features standard as part of a fix to get the planes in the air again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html

So much damning evidence in that article against Boeing.

Boeing’s defense: but our shareholders tho..

[Huckleberry 32694]

1 hour ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I was unaware that it was a single source failure, that Boeing offered dual AOA inputs and an error annunciation, but didn’t make it standard, that the two airlines in question bought the single source option, and that the stab cutout memory item had been removed from many memory items list. 

 

The bus has 3 AOA vanes. Loss of one is listed as “crew awareness”. Loss of two and uncommanded AOA protection activation required turning off two Air Data Computers to get the plane into Alternate Law so that the AOA protection can be overcome. But this is what is known as an Ops Bulletin, and it’s common knowledge what to do if that situation occurs. As the stab cutout switches should have been common m kwowledge in the Max’s. 

Dude, I understand where you're coming from but you are still looking at it only through the lens of being a pilot.

As an engineer you should not have to face that situation as frequently as it's faced. In a car we all know what to do if our brakes go out, but that better be a pretty fucking rare event with standard maintenance upkeep. I don't blame the driver if they crash a car when the brakes go out, even if perfect driving would have avoided the crash.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

No, we’re in agreement on much of what you say. But the driver in this instance should have known to reach for the E brake. The list of f ups leading to these two crashes is long and distinguished from the engineering to the certification, to the purchasing, maintenance and operation. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[Fico 1743]

The list of f ups leading to these two crashes is long and distinguished

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

Saw one of the airplane disaster shows that had a similar issue for Qantas Flight 72. The plane went into two automated dives due to one of the three flight computers misreading altitude data and the auto safety features kicking in. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72

Edited March 21, 2019 by ChickenSandwich

[staboner 4956]

On 3/21/2019 at 9:42 AM, Telegraph_it said:

How in the hell was there not a company wide email sent out highlighting this!?! Probably because the third pilot had to take action and better to not have that come out. 

holy torfucking bush. i just read this too. wow. 

 

[Deej 76524]

47 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Saw one of the airplane disaster shows that had a similar issue for Qantas Flight 72. The plane went into two automated dives due to one of the three flight computers misreading altitude data and the auto safety features kicking in. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72

Air Disasters is must watch, but damn if it isn't running through my head when I fly. 

"What simple incident is going to cause a cascading chain of events to make this plane fall out of the sky?"

The ones where some badass averts disaster are my favorites. The Gimli Glider comes to mind.

[DaysOff 7843]

I was reading about some other plane crashes, and stall is a problem in several instances. For BB, DaysOff, and other pilots, what levels of redundancy are there below the AoA sensors (MCAS system). Once you turn MCAS off due to faulty AoA sensors, what instrumentation do you use to find/maintain a good AoA?

The airspeed tape shows margin to minimum maneuver speed which is 30 percent above stall speed for your current conditions. It then turns red and black at stick shaker speed telling you are really close motherfucker. Not to mention the flight management computer shows max altitude which in 737 is 99% a thrust limit. Inexcusable to get anywhere close to this and it shouldn't be a concern for any passenger.  

 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

Air Disasters is must watch, but damn if it isn't running through my head when I fly. 

"What simple incident is going to cause a cascading chain of events to make this plane fall out of the sky?"

The ones where some badass averts disaster are my favorites. The Gimli Glider comes to mind.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

Fed Ex flight 705 episode needs to be made a movie. Nick Cage needs to be in it. 

Incredible story. 

[RPM 26208]

I think NatGeo did a special on that one. Infreakingcredible.

Reminds me of a line from The Right Stuff. They call them Aviators in the Navy. They say they're better than pilots.

Edited March 22, 2019 by RPM

[Braff Zacklin 13406]

51 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Fed Ex flight 705 episode needs to be made a movie. Nick Cage needs to be in it. 

Only if they crash a full-scale mock-up and he's on it.

[Pato del Muerto 52336]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

Fed Ex flight 705 episode needs to be made a movie. Nick Cage needs to be in it. 

Incredible story. 

Uh holy shit

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

Claw Hammer is the new Tomahawk 

[millhouse 2587]

"Attempted Air Piracy" would be a solid band name

[RPM 26208]

KILL HIM!!! KILL HIM!!!

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by RPM

[immortal13 4059]

Wow what a freaking insane story

[FondrenRoad 4378]

15 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

Fed Ex flight 705 episode needs to be made a movie. Nick Cage needs to be in it. 

Incredible story. 

Wow.  I had never even heard of that, but we should be having parades for Tucker.  The guy loses half his brain, but manages to invert a DC10 and then put it in a dive like its an F14 in Top Gun.  And what a fucking asshole Calloway is.  Puts you in a rage.  Cops should have let Sanders put a bullet in his head on the tarmac, or maybe take out half his skull with a hammer.

Whole thing was about 15 minutes though, so a movie is tough.  And do you make it start with the action, and then be a heartwrencher about disability and physical therapy, or do you do family scene buildup and end with the action?

Edited March 22, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

2 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Wow.  I had never even heard of that, but we should be having parades for Tucker.  The guy loses half his brain, but manages to invert a DC10 and then put it in a dive like its an F14 in Top Gun.  And what a fucking asshole Calloway is.  Puts you in a rage.  Cops should have let Sanders put a bullet in his head on the tarmac, or maybe take out half his skull with a hammer.

Whole thing was about 15 minutes though, so a movie is tough.  And do you make it start with the action, and then be a heartwrencher about disability and physical therapy, or do you do family scene buildup and end with the action?

Hanks made Sully watchable, so it’s possible. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

14 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Claw Hammer is the new Tomahawk 

Take it back.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

Pics of the DC-10 show it bent to hell as it was overstressed in the attack. 

[Txzen 498]

It's been interesting to watch the number of 737 MAX planes stop appearing on the world-wide tracking here : https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M. Still many flying. 

The only one in the US right now? Took off from Boeing in Washington: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE207

 

[DaysOff 7843]

Some are just repositioning flights to get them back to a maintenance base.

[smuggs 9341]

1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

Whole thing was about 15 minutes though, so a movie is tough.  And do you make it start with the action, and then be a heartwrencher about disability and physical therapy, or do you do family scene buildup and end with the action?

 

Maybe a scene where a family still receives their 2nd Day Air package on time.

 

[NeverMarryAStripper 21781]

Tucker delivers the package personally, and then drives off into the sunset in a random direction.

[Buffsoldier 1895]

Tucker narration:
"....years later, just out of the blue, I wondered about the packages in the back of that bird.  Wondered if the families that got that spice rack from Sharper Image saw all the bumps and dings on the box and got curious.  Wondered if they really knew that that package went through in order for them to have their trinket.  Always makes me laugh now.  About the only thing about that day that makes me laugh, but still......"

*fade out...and credits roll*

[RPM 26208]

3 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

Wow.  I had never even heard of that, but we should be having parades for Tucker.  The guy loses half his brain, but manages to invert a DC10 and then put it in a dive like its an F14 in Top Gun.  And what a fucking asshole Calloway is.  Puts you in a rage.  Cops should have let Sanders put a bullet in his head on the tarmac, or maybe take out half his skull with a hammer.

Whole thing was about 15 minutes though, so a movie is tough.  And do you make it start with the action, and then be a heartwrencher about disability and physical therapy, or do you do family scene buildup and end with the action?

They were all former Navy aviators. You could do combat backstory on each of them then mortal combat.

[Pato del Muerto 52336]

21 minutes ago, RPM said:

They were all former Navy aviators. You could do combat backstory on each of them then mortal combat.

Couldn’t even get medical clearance to fly rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong 

[Deej 76524]

5 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

 The guy loses half his brain, but manages to invert a DC10 and then put it in a dive like its an F14 in Top Gun.  

 

[RPM 26208]

4 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Pics of the DC-10 show it bent to hell as it was overstressed in the attack. 

McDonnell Douglas FTW (except for that pesky hydraulic design flaw).

[Pato del Muerto 52336]

Good thing that DC10 didn’t have a MCAS system trying to counter the pilot’s radical maneuvers.