Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

[RPM 26343]

2 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

So the procedure they were supposed to follow wasn’t working so they tried something else? Must have been the pilots fault then for not recognizing the alternative to following the correct procedure that wasn’t working. They should have just been able to improvise on the fly.

So is the new theory that the pilots were speeding and  “refused to drive, 55!!!!! Do don don duh duh Duh don. I can’t drive 55!!”

So in all seriousness, what was the speed limit they were exceeding? How fast were they going and how did that cause the crash of the plane? 

Jesus. The spin to blame the pilots here instead of Boeing’s fucked up system (still grounded by the way) is fucking embarrassing. 

I'm not a pilot and I have no pilot bias. The Ethiopian crew had the throttles set to TO thrust and never backed them off. They ignored overspeed warnings while trying to work the MCAS problem. They made procedural errors. BUT, if Boeing had installed the extra safety equipment, forced better training and not done cost cutting measures to extend the life of an aging platform they wouldn't have had to be working the problem in the first place. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 hours ago, RPM said:

I'm not a pilot and I have no pilot bias. The Ethiopian crew had the throttles set to TO thrust and never backed them off. They ignored overspeed warnings while trying to work the MCAS problem. They made procedural errors. BUT, if Boeing had installed the extra safety equipment, forced better training and not done cost cutting measures to extend the life of an aging platform they wouldn't have had to be working the problem in the first place. 

This. It's like the Old Spice commercial with the guy saying he needs to make getting to the QB harder to be more impressive, putting all kinds of obstacles in this own way.   It's like a 50% of your grade, sudden pop quiz for the docs in the middle of heart surgery, and the questions are all trick questions. That's shit for a simulator, not in actual flight.  Pilots are supposed to fly the planes, but making it more difficult because of poor system design seems...............odd and counter intuitive.

I don't have an issue with the MCAS system if it had been clearly spelled out, added to the procedure with a good explanation of the issue, and pilot training been mandated in big red letters.  That doesn't seem to be what happened here.  They actually charged airlines for a fix/ major safety feature that was their fault to begin with.

 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

8 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

So the procedure they were supposed to follow wasn’t working so they tried something else? Must have been the pilots fault then for not recognizing the alternative to following the correct procedure that wasn’t working. They should have just been able to improvise on the fly.

So is the new theory that the pilots were speeding and  “refused to drive, 55!!!!! Do don don duh duh Duh don. I can’t drive 55!!”

So in all seriousness, what was the speed limit they were exceeding? How fast were they going and how did that cause the crash of the plane? 

Jesus. The spin to blame the pilots here instead of Boeing’s fucked up system (still grounded by the way) is fucking embarrassing. 

Airplanes have speed limitations for many reasons. I’d recommend you spend two minutes researching the subject before posting willy nilly again cementing that you don’t know jack shit about the subject matter. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Airplanes have speed limitations for many reasons. I’d recommend you spend two minutes researching the subject before posting willy nilly again cementing that you don’t know jack shit about the subject matter. 

Willy nilly ?  That doesn't sound very piloty.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

6 hours ago, C-Man said:

 

I think it’s more than fair to criticize Boeing for building a plane that needs this MCAS thing in the first place and if that whistle-blower story is true, well, F Boeing. I’m just slightly correcting the guy who stated they followed the procedure to a T and still crashed. They did not.

 

The Lion Air crew didn’t follow the procedure at all.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

22 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Willy nilly ?  That doesn't sound very piloty.

It’s right there in the FAR/AIM glossary of terms wedged between Whiskey Tango Foxtrot and wutsajigger. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[Asithappens 974]

Boeing Co. on Monday said certain safety alerts on its 737 MAX jets didn’t operate as airlines would have anticipated because of a previously undisclosed error on its part.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-signals-additional-software-problem-affecting-737-max-airliners-11556592646?mod=hp_lead_pos1

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

It’s right there in the FAR/AIM glossary of terms wedged between Whiskey Tango Foxtrot and wutsajigger. 

[hayden_horn 11365]

6 hours ago, Asithappens said:

Boeing Co. on Monday said certain safety alerts on its 737 MAX jets didn’t operate as airlines would have anticipated because of a previously undisclosed error on its part.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-signals-additional-software-problem-affecting-737-max-airliners-11556592646?mod=hp_lead_pos1

uh oh.

[Captainant 27755]

6 hours ago, Asithappens said:

Boeing Co. on Monday said certain safety alerts on its 737 MAX jets didn’t operate as airlines would have anticipated because of a previously undisclosed error on its part.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-signals-additional-software-problem-affecting-737-max-airliners-11556592646?mod=hp_lead_pos1

I was told by some folks on this thread that those pilots didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Huh. I guess the massive, multi-national corporation wasn't being honest and forthcoming to the public regarding a safety issue that could negatively impact their bottom line. That never happens!

[retread 2951]

Summary from Marketwatch

Quote

Boeing’s BA, -0.60%   statement came a day after The Wall Street Journal reported the company hadn’t told airlines flying 737 Max jets that certain safety alerts wouldn’t function as expected. The issue of nonfunctioning alerts came to light after the crash of a Lion Air jet in October in Indonesia, but there were no indications since then that it stemmed from a mistake on the part of the plane maker.

The alerts offer an extra safeguard for pilots in the event a separate stall-prevention system called MCAS, suspected in the deadly Lion Air crash and the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max in March, may be on the verge of misfiring. The two crashes took a total of 346 lives, leading regulators around the world to ground the 737 Max fleet.

The Monday statement suggests Boeing engineers and management, as well as U.S. air-safety regulators, either missed or overlooked one more software design problem when the model was certified two years ago. Before Monday, neither Boeing nor the Federal Aviation Administration had disclosed that an additional software glitch — rather than an intentional plan by the plane maker — rendered so-called angle of attack alerts inoperable on most Max aircraft. The alerts warn pilots when there is a disagreement between two separate sensors measuring the angle of a plane’s nose.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing-says-additional-737-max-software-glitch-made-some-safety-alerts-inoperable-2019-04-29

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

33 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I was told by some folks on this thread that those pilots didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Huh. I guess the massive, multi-national corporation wasn't being honest and forthcoming to the public regarding a safety issue that could negatively impact their bottom line. That never happens!

At this point you’re either an obtuse  regard needing a helmet before venturing outside or you’re trolling. The ongoing need to have one bad guy, and one bad guy only Vasili is Corky level cognition, and everyone who told you the pilots pooch screwed themselves into fresh ditches has said the manufacturer f’d up. Both can be true. 

And lost amidst all the new finger pointing at Boeing is the fact that the airlines accepted these planes in this state, and no one quit scratching their asses long enough to question whether or not their safety features worked until now. It’s not a car. You don’t have to just trust that the airbags will work. 

[XYZ 2154]

53 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I was told by some folks on this thread that those pilots didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Huh.

No, you weren’t told that.

[Captainant 27755]

24 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

At this point you’re either an obtuse  regard needing a helmet before venturing outside or you’re trolling. The ongoing need to have one bad guy, and one bad guy only Vasili is Corky level cognition, and everyone who told you the pilots pooch screwed themselves into fresh ditches has said the manufacturer f’d up. Both can be true. 

And lost amidst all the new finger pointing at Boeing is the fact that the airlines accepted these planes in this state, and no one quit scratching their asses long enough to question whether or not their safety features worked until now. It’s not a car. You don’t have to just trust that the airbags will work. 

Sure, but I'm saying maybe you shouldn't be criticising the pilots for lacking basic airmanship when the plane was rushed through cert and pushed by airlines to get a bigger margin on fuel cost savings. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Sure, but I'm saying maybe you shouldn't be criticising the pilots for lacking basic airmanship when the plane was rushed through cert and pushed by airlines to get a bigger margin on fuel cost savings. 

So the foibles in certification exonerate the pilots from their failures to actually pilot well?  No, I don't think so. And the latest revelation of the comparator malfunctions had no bearing on the two accident aircraft which both had single sourced systems. 

Look, we all question everyone from the president to the postman on a daily basis. I don’t have a problem with it. But the ongoing insistence that the pilots get a pass  is getting pretty silly. 

Did it occur to you that the airlines are also trying to position themselves to getter better deals and compensation from Boeing by announcing this?  Do you think SWA’s recent ham fisted peek at the A220 was on accident?  

Whats the move behind the public move?  This isn’t a checkers situation. Folks have such a hard on to get further enraged about this that they’re not thinking about it in the same way they do on subjects they’re better acquainted with. 

[Asithappens 974]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

I was told by some folks on this thread that those pilots didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. 

That's just some weird shit.

I think Boeing has some Russia-type bots posting here.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

27 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

That's just some weird shit.

I think Boeing has some Russia-type bots posting here.

A true Russian would leave the "a" and "the" out of the phrase "know their ass from hole in ground".

Edited April 30, 2019 by Onboard 2.0

[Pasken 1309]

Did any of you actually look at the Black Box data??? ONE of the control sticks was shaking indicating a stall. ONE. That immediately indicates a mismatch with the captain and co pilot's  speed or angle sensors because if they matched then both columns would be shaking. A small warning light pales in comparison to the damn steering column violently shaking. This latest "report" changes jack shit. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Pasken

[retread 2951]

Saw this graphic while reading about pitch trim units. It was in this article https://www.satcom.guru/2019/04/what-happened-on-et302.html

FDR graphic for ET302   https://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/ET302-FDR-trace-specifics.png

Quote

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

12 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Airplanes have speed limitations for many reasons. I’d recommend you spend two minutes researching the subject before posting willy nilly again cementing that you don’t know jack shit about the subject matter. 

No thanks. I’ll post willy again cementing that I don’t know jack shit about a subject matter on the internet as much as I please. Thank you.

Look man, as you have pointed out repeatedly and that I have never contested, is I’m not a pilot so I can’t really get into a debate with you on pilots and their procedures and negligence.

So that being said, and given that I do have the right to post on this website given that I went through the arduous procedure of registering, my opinion is that while the pilots may have as our First Lady said “been better” that the root and true cause of this disaster that killed hundreds of people was a completely fucked up design caused by Boeing. 

Agree or disagree? 

[happyfunball 481]

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

4 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

No thanks. I’ll post willy again cementing that I don’t know jack shit about a subject matter on the internet as much as I please. Thank you.

Look man, as you have pointed out repeatedly and that I have never contested, is I’m not a pilot so I can’t really get into a debate with you on pilots and their procedures and negligence.

So that being said, and given that I do have the right to post on this website given that I went through the arduous procedure of registering, my opinion is that while the pilots may have as our First Lady said “been better” that the root and true cause of this disaster that killed hundreds of people was a completely fucked up design caused by Boeing. 

Agree or disagree? 

It hard to point to one thing as a root cause when failure occurred at so many points in the process. Why isn’t the FAA the root cause since they ceded their responsibility for oversight and certification to a manufacturer? 

The rule of deepest pockets wins the day in aviation litigation cases. I guess the FAA technically has Uncle Sam’s credit card on file, but really it’s Boeing who’ll take the biggest loss even though the FAA and both airlines failed impressively themselves. 

[GringoSalado 1651]

10 hours ago, Captainant said:

I was told by some folks on this thread that those pilots didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Huh. I guess the massive, multi-national corporation wasn't being honest and forthcoming to the public regarding a safety issue that could negatively impact their bottom line. That never happens!

For the millionth time, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Edited May 1, 2019 by GringoSalado

[Armybrat 40888]

Things have apparently changed with the criteria for the FAA grounding policies since the early 1960s.

I recall flying to Kansa City in a Lockheed Electra turboprop in May, 1960. That model had been in service only since the previous year and had experienced 3 catastrophic crashes (wings kept falling off), with the last one occurring two months before. Supposedly to lessen the danger, the 400 knot plane was restricted to a slower speed for the time being while they figured out what the problem was.

The fault was found and modifications were made later in that year. Nonetheless, on our flight prior to the modifications, the pilot announced our airspeed as 400 (don’t remember if he said knots or mph). Anyway, my brother said “uh-oh”.... and Mom asked what was wrong. Bro replied that “at this speed the wings can fall off”, making us all feel thrilled to no end. Lulz.

When we landed in KC and were taxiing to the terminal, I puked into my barf bag then carefully sealed it and placed it back into the seat pocket in front on me. Was too embarrassed to tell anyone.

[EE2B 1565]

Did Wilbur or Orville pilot that flight?

[Brisketexan 105301]

2 minutes ago, EE2B said:

Did Wilbur or Orville pilot that flight?

Icarus.

[PilotsError 2320]

You remember months and years of flights?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, PilotsError said:

You remember months and years of flights?

I think if I was in a plane that had a history of wings falling off, I might even remember the clothes I was wearing.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Onboard 2.0

[Brisketexan 105301]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

I thunk if I was in a plane that had a history of wings falling off, I might even remember the clothes I was wearing.

The shitstain in the pants would be a good mnemonic device.

[Pato del Muerto 52578]

He’s confused.  He was in a Buick Electra with the 400 ci motor. 

[Longhorn94 2458]

this isnt hard. 

1. Boeing fucked up.

2. FAA fucked up.

3. LA and EA fucked up.

4. Pilots of both fucked up in different ways.

If any one of the above doesnt fuck up, 500+ people are still alive. But they didnt and all of the above contributed to causing the crashes. No one is more to blame than the others. They all should not have made the mistakes they made. In today's unbelievable safe world of aviation, it takes this sort of catastrophic failure across many parties to lead to a crash(es).

Y'all are surprised that pilots are partially blaming the pilots in each crash? Have you ever met a pilot? They always believe they can safely land the plane. And that is exactly how I want them to believe. I want a badass in the front seat that is 100% sure he/she can get my ass home safely no matter what happens. That is just how they are programmed. Of course they are pissed at Boeing, FAA and the airlines for putting them in that position but what do you want them to do? give up and blame someone else? No, they are going to take responsibility and land the motherfucking plane like we all want them to. They have to believe that they will figure it out or they arent fit to sit in that seat. You saw what happened even after all the fuck ups listed above in the previous LA flight, the third pilot fixed that shit in 5 seconds. That's what these pilots are getting at: even with all the prior fuck ups, a good pilot makes the difference between life and death. I am grateful they have that mentality and its what I am counting on to get me home every time i get on a plane. 

[ChickenSandwich 9850]

34 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

this isnt hard. 

1. Boeing fucked up.

2. FAA fucked up.

3. LA and EA fucked up.

4. Pilots of both fucked up in different ways.

If any one of the above doesnt fuck up, 500+ people are still alive. But they didnt and all of the above contributed to causing the crashes. No one is more to blame than the others. They all should not have made the mistakes they made. In today's unbelievable safe world of aviation, it takes this sort of catastrophic failure across many parties to lead to a crash(es).

Y'all are surprised that pilots are partially blaming the pilots in each crash? Have you ever met a pilot? They always believe they can safely land the plane. And that is exactly how I want them to believe. I want a badass in the front seat that is 100% sure he/she can get my ass home safely no matter what happens. That is just how they are programmed. Of course they are pissed at Boeing, FAA and the airlines for putting them in that position but what do you want them to do? give up and blame someone else? No, they are going to take responsibility and land the motherfucking plane like we all want them to. They have to believe that they will figure it out or they arent fit to sit in that seat. You saw what happened even after all the fuck ups listed above in the previous LA flight, the third pilot fixed that shit in 5 seconds. That's what these pilots are getting at: even with all the prior fuck ups, a good pilot makes the difference between life and death. I am grateful they have that mentality and its what I am counting on to get me home every time i get on a plane. 

The mentality aspect is fascinating. On the show Air Disasters they said a majority of pilots would stop flying shortly after listening to CVR’s of crashed flights. Maybe it just takes away that edge of “I could have saved it” when they hear a peer have no options. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by ChickenSandwich

[DalTxHornFan 3116]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

Things have apparently changed with the criteria for the FAA grounding policies since the early 1960s.

I recall flying to Kansa City in a Lockheed Electra turboprop in May, 1960. That model had been in service only since the previous year and had experienced 3 catastrophic crashes (wings kept falling off), with the last one occurring two months before. Supposedly to lessen the danger, the 400 knot plane was restricted to a slower speed for the time being while they figured out what the problem was.

The fault was found and modifications were made later in that year. Nonetheless, on our flight prior to the modifications, the pilot announced our airspeed as 400 (don’t remember if he said knots or mph). Anyway, my brother said “uh-oh”.... and Mom asked what was wrong. Bro replied that “at this speed the wings can fall off”, making us all feel thrilled to no end. Lulz.

When we landed in KC and were taxiing to the terminal, I puked into my barf bag then carefully sealed it and placed it back into the seat pocket in front on me. Was too embarrassed to tell anyone.

Glad that you survived. "Of the total of 170 Electras built, as of June 2011, 58 have been written off because of crashes and other accidents."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-188_Electra#Accidents_and_incidents

[XYZ 2154]

30 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

this isnt hard. 

1. Boeing fucked up.

2. FAA fucked up.

3. LA and EA fucked up.

4. Pilots of both fucked up in different ways.

If any one of the above doesnt fuck up, 500+ people are still alive. But they didnt and all of the above contributed to causing the crashes. No one is more to blame than the others. They all should not have made the mistakes they made. In today's unbelievable safe world of aviation, it takes this sort of catastrophic failure across many parties to lead to a crash(es).

Y'all are surprised that pilots are partially blaming the pilots in each crash? Have you ever met a pilot? They always believe they can safely land the plane. And that is exactly how I want them to believe. I want a badass in the front seat that is 100% sure he/she can get my ass home safely no matter what happens. That is just how they are programmed. Of course they are pissed at Boeing, FAA and the airlines for putting them in that position but what do you want them to do? give up and blame someone else? No, they are going to take responsibility and land the motherfucking plane like we all want them to. They have to believe that they will figure it out or they arent fit to sit in that seat. You saw what happened even after all the fuck ups listed above in the previous LA flight, the third pilot fixed that shit in 5 seconds. That's what these pilots are getting at: even with all the prior fuck ups, a good pilot makes the difference between life and death. I am grateful they have that mentality and its what I am counting on to get me home every time i get on a plane. 

I only take issue with this: “No one is more to blame than the others”. I think that items 1-3 go in a category of “negligence”. The pilots, on the other hand, I assume that they were overwhelmed by a hundred different alarms. They tried and failed. Maybe they didn’t have enough experience, or maybe their training was deficient. The people at Boeing, FAA, and the airlines, they weren’t under duress when they made the fateful decisions. Maybe the airlines can get a pass if Boeing lied to them. Boeing and the FAA, I can’t think of a reason why some people shouldn’t go to prison for manslaughter.

[Dahobbs 17677]

48 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

this isnt hard. 

1. Boeing fucked up.

2. FAA fucked up.

3. LA and EA fucked up.

4. Pilots of both fucked up in different ways.

If any one of the above doesnt fuck up, 500+ people are still alive. But they didnt and all of the above contributed to causing the crashes. No one is more to blame than the others. They all should not have made the mistakes they made. In today's unbelievable safe world of aviation, it takes this sort of catastrophic failure across many parties to lead to a crash(es).

Y'all are surprised that pilots are partially blaming the pilots in each crash? Have you ever met a pilot? They always believe they can safely land the plane. And that is exactly how I want them to believe. I want a badass in the front seat that is 100% sure he/she can get my ass home safely no matter what happens. That is just how they are programmed. Of course they are pissed at Boeing, FAA and the airlines for putting them in that position but what do you want them to do? give up and blame someone else? No, they are going to take responsibility and land the motherfucking plane like we all want them to. They have to believe that they will figure it out or they arent fit to sit in that seat. You saw what happened even after all the fuck ups listed above in the previous LA flight, the third pilot fixed that shit in 5 seconds. That's what these pilots are getting at: even with all the prior fuck ups, a good pilot makes the difference between life and death. I am grateful they have that mentality and its what I am counting on to get me home every time i get on a plane. 

The bold is fucking horseshit and a lazy cop-out. I can absolutely assign a hierarchy of blame. None of this happens if Boeing doesn't massively fuck up in the chase of profits. There would have been nothing for the FAA to fuck up. The pilots wouldn't have to deal with the plane deciding to dive into the ground. And the airlines wouldn't have had to choose between various models of planes with differing features of unrealized importance. Boeing started the whole thing, rationalized away the safety concerns, and mislead everyone regarding the extent of the changes solely because it was getting its butt kicked in the market.  Boeing gets the majority of the blame. Everyone else fucked up too. Boeing fucked up worse. 

Put another way, the pilots didn't choose to crash. They didn't choose to not fly perfectly. They fucked up, but it was an accident under pressure. Boeing chose this design. Boeing chose to skimp on safety testing. Boeing chose to mislead everyone about how important the changes truly were. We have different penalties for criminal negligent homicide, manslaughter, murder for a reason. We recognize the distinction from a purposeful act, recklessness, and mere negligence. The pilots were negligent. Boeing was somewhere between purposeful act and recklessness. Intent fucking matters. Fuck Boeing. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Dahobbs

[retread 2951]

Pretty egregious actions/inactions by Boeing https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Quote

Current and former engineers directly involved with the evaluations or familiar with the document shared details of Boeing’s “System Safety Analysis” of MCAS, which The Seattle Times confirmed.

The safety analysis:

Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.

Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.

Assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.

The people who spoke to The Seattle Times and shared details of the safety analysis all spoke on condition of anonymity to protect their jobs at the FAA and other aviation organizations.

 

[Pato del Muerto 52578]

34 minutes ago, XYZ said:

I only take issue with this: “No one is more to blame than the others”. I think that items 1-3 go in a category of “negligence”. The pilots, on the other hand, I assume that they were overwhelmed by a hundred different alarms. They tried and failed. Maybe they didn’t have enough experience, or maybe their training was deficient. The people at Boeing, FAA, and the airlines, they weren’t under duress when they made the fateful decisions. Maybe the airlines can get a pass if Boeing lied to them. Boeing and the FAA, I can’t think of a reason why some people shouldn’t go to prison for manslaughter.

There were time deadlines and financial implications!  

[Armybrat 40888]

2 hours ago, PilotsError said:

You remember months and years of flights?

That one was to attend my grandpa’s funeral. Besides, my family flew very little in the 1940s to early 1960s. Dad hated airplanes and the expensive fares.

that’s why we had to go by military transport Ships across the Pacific & to the Caribbean.

[Asithappens 974]

In a quest to cut costs (and, it seems, to see how far idiocy can become a strategic objective) Boeing cut off the input from their own test pilots.

Boeing Co. BA 0.18% limited the role of its own pilots in the final stages of developing the 737 MAX flight-control system implicated in two fatal crashes, departing from a longstanding practice of seeking their detailed input, people familiar with the matter said.

As a result, Boeing test pilots and senior pilots involved in the MAX’s development didn’t receive detailed briefings about how fast or steeply the automated system known as MCAS could push down a plane’s nose, these people said. Nor were they informed that the system relied on a single sensor—rather than two—to verify the accuracy of incoming data about the angle of a plane’s nose, they added.

Investigators have linked faulty sensor data to the flight-control system’s misfire, which led to crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia that took 346 lives.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeings-own-test-pilots-lacked-key-details-of-737-max-flight-control-system-11556877600?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=4

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 5/3/2019 at 11:05 AM, Longhorn94 said:

this isnt hard. 

1. Boeing fucked up.

2. FAA fucked up.

3. LA and EA fucked up.

4. Pilots of both fucked up in different ways.

If any one of the above doesnt fuck up, 500+ people are still alive. But they didnt and all of the above contributed to causing the crashes. No one is more to blame than the others. They all should not have made the mistakes they made. In today's unbelievable safe world of aviation, it takes this sort of catastrophic failure across many parties to lead to a crash(es).

Y'all are surprised that pilots are partially blaming the pilots in each crash? Have you ever met a pilot? They always believe they can safely land the plane. And that is exactly how I want them to believe. I want a badass in the front seat that is 100% sure he/she can get my ass home safely no matter what happens. That is just how they are programmed. Of course they are pissed at Boeing, FAA and the airlines for putting them in that position but what do you want them to do? give up and blame someone else? No, they are going to take responsibility and land the motherfucking plane like we all want them to. They have to believe that they will figure it out or they arent fit to sit in that seat. You saw what happened even after all the fuck ups listed above in the previous LA flight, the third pilot fixed that shit in 5 seconds. That's what these pilots are getting at: even with all the prior fuck ups, a good pilot makes the difference between life and death. I am grateful they have that mentality and its what I am counting on to get me home every time i get on a plane. 

I disagree. Boeing created the issue. They are the owner/contributor /creator of the design issue.  They sold a plane with a defect, then tried to charge airlines for the fix they caused.

Should pilots be able to overcome design issues while in flight?  In theory yes, most of the time I'd say yes. That 2 airlines had catastrophic accidents because of a Boeing design flaw speaks to something more than just overriding an alarm. Boeing should have been much more proactive in warning about the problem and requiring additional pilot training to deal with the issue.  Boeing knew the issue existed and didn't exercise proper due diligence. 

[WhatTheBuck 28797]

On May 3, 2019 at 12:21 PM, Pato del Muerto said:

There were time deadlines and financial implications!  

Funny how bugs can get overlooked when someone's bonus is on the line. 

[Eskimohorn 5642]

It hard to point to one thing as a root cause when failure occurred at so many points in the process. Why isn’t the FAA the root cause since they ceded their responsibility for oversight and certification to a manufacturer? 
The rule of deepest pockets wins the day in aviation litigation cases. I guess the FAA technically has Uncle Sam’s credit card on file, but really it’s Boeing who’ll take the biggest loss even though the FAA and both airlines failed impressively themselves. 

I think it’s very likely Boeing played a pivotal role in weakening the FAA’s authority and ability to regulate its own industry. From Boeing’s perspective, they can speed through regulatory barriers by doing things themselves.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

32 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

I think it’s very likely Boeing played a pivotal role in weakening the FAA’s authority and ability to regulate its own industry. From Boeing’s perspective, they can speed through regulatory barriers by doing things themselves.
 

 

This, the fox guarding the hen house a bit.

[retread 2951]

3 hours ago, Asithappens said:

Boeing cut off the input from their own test pilots.Boeing Co. BA 0.18% limited the role of its own pilots in the final stages of developing the 737 MAX flight-control system implicated in two fatal crashes, departing from a longstanding practice of seeking their detailed input, people familiar with the matter said.

As a result, Boeing test pilots and senior pilots involved in the MAX’s development didn’t receive detailed briefings about how fast or steeply the automated system known as MCAS could push down a plane’s nose, these people said. Nor were they informed that the system relied on a single sensor—rather than two—to verify the accuracy of incoming data about the angle of a plane’s nose, they added. 

 

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Funny how bugs can get overlooked when someone's bonus is on the line. 

If you ask too many people for input, it just gums up the works. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

3 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

I think it’s very likely Boeing played a pivotal role in weakening the FAA’s authority and ability to regulate its own industry. From Boeing’s perspective, they can speed through regulatory barriers by doing things themselves.
 

 

Maybe. And maybe ongoing budgetary issues helped hamstring the FAA so that they found it easier to cede some of their authority and oversight to Boeing. They cited a lack of manpower and time when giving Boeing authorization to certify some of their work if I recall correctly. 

[Pato del Muerto 52578]

I cite the case of frog v scorpion. 

[Your Mom 4850]

7 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

I think it’s very likely Boeing played a pivotal role in weakening the FAA’s authority and ability to regulate its own industry. From Boeing’s perspective, they can speed through regulatory barriers by doing things themselves.
 

 

It was an act of Congress in 2004.  They were looking to cut the FAA budget and the FAA argued that it needed all those employees for oversight of manufacturers, oversight of airlines, oversight of pilot training, etc...  This plan of letting more of that oversight out of their hands was Congress' answer.  

It's not just manufacturing either.  I've probably taken 40ish checkrides and linechecks as a pilot to meet a standard set by the FAA.  An actual FAA employee has watched exactly one of them.  Last time a fed watched me fly was 2001 (I'm not complaining... knock on wood!).  Same with manufacturing, the fed oversees the designee and the program as a whole, but not the individual pieces of it. It all goes back to cutting costs and the budget of the FAA being stretched thin.  Congress wants to cut budgets, FAA says less manpower will slow down the certifications process, Boeing and airlines say "Whoa we can't have that!" and lobby for the ability to oversee some of the certifications themselves, Congress approves it, gets their budget cuts, tax cuts, smaller government, etc... and it all has no repercussions at all... until it does.  

And now Congress wants hearings about the problems with the Max.  That's rich.  Their own actions created this slippery slope.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

12 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

It was an act of Congress in 2004.  They were looking to cut the FAA budget and the FAA argued that it needed all those employees for oversight of manufacturers, oversight of airlines, oversight of pilot training, etc...  This plan of letting more of that oversight out of their hands was Congress' answer.  

It's not just manufacturing either.  I've probably taken 40ish checkrides and linechecks as a pilot to meet a standard set by the FAA.  An actual FAA employee has watched exactly one of them.  Last time a fed watched me fly was 2001 (I'm not complaining... knock on wood!).  Same with manufacturing, the fed oversees the designee and the program as a whole, but not the individual pieces of it. It all goes back to cutting costs and the budget of the FAA being stretched thin.  Congress wants to cut budgets, FAA says less manpower will slow down the certifications process, Boeing and airlines say "Whoa we can't have that!" and lobby for the ability to oversee some of the certifications themselves, Congress approves it, gets their budget cuts, tax cuts, smaller government, etc... and it all has no repercussions at all... until it does.  

And now Congress wants hearings about the problems with the Max.  That's rich.  Their own actions created this slippery slope.  

There are agencies where you just don't cut budgets.  FDA, EPA, FAA, etc.  those agencies that are directly responsible for overseeing safety/environmental issues.

[Eskimohorn 5642]

It was an act of Congress in 2004.  They were looking to cut the FAA budget and the FAA argued that it needed all those employees for oversight of manufacturers, oversight of airlines, oversight of pilot training, etc...  This plan of letting more of that oversight out of their hands was Congress' answer.  
It's not just manufacturing either.  I've probably taken 40ish checkrides and linechecks as a pilot to meet a standard set by the FAA.  An actual FAA employee has watched exactly one of them.  Last time a fed watched me fly was 2001 (I'm not complaining... knock on wood!).  Same with manufacturing, the fed oversees the designee and the program as a whole, but not the individual pieces of it. It all goes back to cutting costs and the budget of the FAA being stretched thin.  Congress wants to cut budgets, FAA says less manpower will slow down the certifications process, Boeing and airlines say "Whoa we can't have that!" and lobby for the ability to oversee some of the certifications themselves, Congress approves it, gets their budget cuts, tax cuts, smaller government, etc... and it all has no repercussions at all... until it does.  
And now Congress wants hearings about the problems with the Max.  That's rich.  Their own actions created this slippery slope.  

Boeing and other industry players put immense pressure on Congress for the 2004 legislation. http:// https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjSveSgsoXiAhXkwcQHHTUrAVQQzPwBegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.politico.com%2Fstory%2F2019%2F03%2F21%2Fcongress-faa-boeing-oversight-1287902&psig=AOvVaw2w2rCY7XpjEoI2QW1Ws3BA&ust=1557180154159716

It wouldnt surprise me if Boeing has drafted the majority of all aviation legislation.

[WhatTheBuck 28797]

Give the page more time to load so you can c&p a proper link. 

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/21/congress-faa-boeing-oversight-1287902