Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

There should be no trick questions when a lot is trying to regain control of an aircraft.  This is so clearly the fault of being, and not the pilots. Criminal negligence is the phrase that feels right here.

[Captainant 27309]

I mean it's not like Boeing had documented concerns from sim and test pilots on the issue or anything - it's just unreasonable to expect an aircraft designer to design inherently safe aircraft that don't require undocumented and band-aid fixes to get it good enough to squeak through cert, right?

The desperation to spread blame to the dead pilots just smacks of "both sides" bullshit. Boeing violated so many basics of ethical engineering that directly led to the death of hundreds of passengers. They put completing the project on time ahead of ensuring its safety, according to the test pilots and flight engineers that were told not to "rock the boat".

THAT is dangerous. THAT is what you should be more concerned about, rather than watering down their negligence and malfeasance.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

2 hours ago, Homercles said:

JFC not this circle jerk again.  

Welcome to Surly Dead Horse Beating 101.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

33 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Welcome to Surly Dead Horse Beating 101.

You sure it's not Poke the Bear 101 ??

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You sure it's not Poke the Bear 101 ??

[GringoSalado 1651]

 

4 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Life’s short. Being a bitch is optional. 

Both crews responded poorly on top of the sins of Boeing and the FAA. Responding in a manner consistent with uncommanded pitch procedures in the 737 fixes both situations whether they knew about the new system or not.  Sorry that’s hard for some to understand. 

Not going to go back but pretty sure that literally happened to another Lion Air crew (MCAS tried to lawn dart itself and pilot flipped the correct toggle and landed the plane)?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

52 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I wanna make sure I'm in the right lecture hall. I have that recurring college nightmare enough as it is.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I wanna make sure I'm in the right lecture hall. I have that recurring college nightmare enough as it is.

Damn. I have one that I can't find the room to take my last final in. 

[Shoxthemonkey 1976]

19 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Damn. I have one that I can't find the room to take my last final in. 

I found the room but I'm naked.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, GringoSalado said:

 

Not going to go back but pretty sure that literally happened to another Lion Air crew (MCAS tried to lawn dart itself and pilot flipped the correct toggle and landed the plane)?

I believe it was the same airplane with a different crew and the jumpseater recognized the situation and responded correctly. The first part may be off. The second part is correct. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Damn. I have one that I can't find the room to take my last final in. 

Oh yeah,  that one or you sit down, and the prof. announces OK everybody ready for the end of year final ??!

[Pato del Muerto 52321]

6 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Life’s short. Being a bitch is optional. 

Both crews responded poorly on top of the sins of Boeing and the FAA. Responding in a manner consistent with uncommanded pitch procedures in the 737 fixes both situations whether they knew about the new system or not.  Sorry that’s hard for some to understand. 

 

6 hours ago, DaysOff said:

6 hours ago, RPM said:

I was assured the plane was perfectly safe and the incompetent pilots were to blame.

No that wasn't wrong. What I learned on my last trip through the simulator about these accidents is more of a face palm from these pilots. Much of the return to service has been a political boondoggle, but that doesn't change the mistakes Boeing and the Feds made. Both can be true.

So have you guys gotten this failure in sim time yet?  Or no, because they’re “fixing” it?

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

I fly the Airbus so it’s not something we specifically trained for. 

The unreliable airspeed scenario (what primarily led to the Ethiopian crash) is a memory item for us, and we don’t have pitch trim cut outs. We can get the plane into alternate flight law whereby any uncommanded pitch can be overridden by the pilot.

[Your Mom 4789]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

 

So have you guys gotten this failure in sim time yet?  Or no, because they’re “fixing” it?

Yep.  It’s about a 5 second procedure. Same way it’s been done for decades.

There is nothing new or different about stabilizer trim runaways. This particular cause is new and different and probably more likely to happen than the many other reasons that have caused them over the years, but a Runaway Stab Trim is a Runaway Stab Trim no matter what caused it.  
The procedure didn’t change just because of the shitty engineering of the MCAS and it won’t change after the fix. The training we will undergo related to “the fix” will be more background knowledge on how the system works but it won’t change the recovery procedure. The procedure to recover from a runaway stab trim has been in place for decades. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Your Mom

[Captainant 27309]

Who gives a shit if given ideal conditions, any pilot should have been able to recover? 

Boeing hid material design flaws from pilots, passengers, and regulators. Those design flaws directly led to the death of hundreds of people. 

Why are you chuckleheads spending so much effort to shit on the dead pilots and victims, when there is substantial, corroborated, and addressable wrongdoing by boeing? Who is still trying to rush the airframe through the same certification process that produced a deadly bird in the first place?

[Captainant 27309]

Have y'all actually read the report and/or an analysis of the report? It's pretty damning. 

The 238-page report details how Boeing attempted to minimize both the regulatory testing and pilot training required to fly the new Max, which was being rushed out in an attempt to compete with the Airbus A320neo.

It found the company successfully persuaded the FAA not to classify the anti-stall system as “safety critical,” meaning that many pilots did not even know of its existence before flying the Max.

In doing so, Boeing concealed from regulators internal test data showing that if a pilot took longer than 10 seconds to recognize that the system had kicked in erroneously, the consequences would be “catastrophic.”

The report also detailed how an alert, which would have warned pilots of a potential problem with one of their anti-stall sensors, was not working on the vast majority of the Max fleet. It found that Boeing deliberately concealed this fact from both pilots and regulators as it continued to roll out the new aircraft around the world.

[Your Mom 4789]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Who gives a shit if given ideal conditions, any pilot should have been able to recover? 

Boeing hid material design flaws from pilots, passengers, and regulators. Those design flaws directly led to the death of hundreds of people. 

Why are you chuckleheads spending so much effort to shit on the dead pilots and victims, when there is substantial, corroborated, and addressable wrongdoing by boeing? Who is still trying to rush the airframe through the same certification process that produced a deadly bird in the first place?

If by “so much effort” you mean the same amount of effort I give to posting about South Austin’s mom... well yeah. It’s not exactly a lot of effort or energy. Just a sharing of observations. Sorry it triggers you. 

[DaysOff 7821]

So have you guys gotten this failure in sim time yet?  Or no, because they’re “fixing” it?

Yes I have. It's a non event. That's what we've been trying to say. I'm sure the FAA will waste sim time making us repeat this failure annually after its been engineered out of the plane instead of more important things.

Nobody is advocating for Boeing or polyester wearing FAA dorks. We're advocating for the 346 dead people that deserved well trained crews.

[Captainant 27309]

3 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Yes I have. It's a non event. That's what we've been trying to say. I'm sure the FAA will waste sim time making us repeat this failure annually after its been engineered out of the plane instead of more important things.

Nobody is advocating for Boeing or polyester wearing FAA dorks. We're advocating for the 346 dead people that deserved well trained crews.

And the reason they did not have well trained crews is that Boeing took active steps to conceal the need for additional training or even basic information about the MCAS system. 

[DaysOff 7821]

Lol that's not the reason.

[Captainant 27309]

So you don't see anything morally/ethically/legally wrong with shipping planes with known critical safety indicator defects and undocumented behaviors to the average commercial pilot in less developed countries? By boeing's own assessment, if the event wasn't addressed in under 10 seconds it would be catastrophic.

The MCAS system would continually fire the elevator correction even after being mitigated the first time, so you had pilots trying to diagnose an unknown system where their mitigations were being actively undone by the unknown system put in place and concealed by Boeing to avoid a new type classification. Sounds like the root issue isn't just a couple of pilots to me. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Captainant

[DaysOff 7821]

No shit. We've jerked that circle.

Runaway pitch trim procedure on Boeings hasn't changed in 50 years. You know when the trim is running on the 737 as a giant clanking wheel is trying hit your knee as it's running.

[Huckleberry 32685]

1 hour ago, DaysOff said:

Yes I have. It's a non event. That's what we've been trying to say. I'm sure the FAA will waste sim time making us repeat this failure annually after its been engineered out of the plane instead of more important things.

Nobody is advocating for Boeing or polyester wearing FAA dorks. We're advocating for the 346 dead people that deserved well trained crews.

They deserved competent engineering departments, too.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Who gives a shit if given ideal conditions, any pilot should have been able to recover? 

Boeing hid material design flaws from pilots, passengers, and regulators. Those design flaws directly led to the death of hundreds of people. 

Why are you chuckleheads spending so much effort to shit on the dead pilots and victims, when there is substantial, corroborated, and addressable wrongdoing by boeing? Who is still trying to rush the airframe through the same certification process that produced a deadly bird in the first place?

It's akin to a contractor covering a large hole in a second floor of a building during construction with a piece of carpet that matches the look of the plywood flooring surrounding it, and not telling anyone about it..  Boeing thru willful negligence hid a major design flaw from everybody in the world that needed to know about it.

[Homercles 10205]

Just close the thread.  It can be the result of coverup at Boeing, a poorly funded and therefore lax enforcement agency, and pilots that were poorly trained/experienced who were trying to diagnose instead of recalling a memory item.  
 

That Hyatt collapse wasn’t only because the builder changed from the plans...the plans were not properly designed to support the weight in the first place, massive inflation and poor economics pushed builders to rush/cut corners, and oversight was poor.    
 

Just like AF447 was a confluence of design choices, weather and a terrible decision by a second officer operating under poor CRM.  
 

It wasn’t just Boeing.  It wasn’t just Boeing + the FAA.  Professionals here have given their opinions multiple times...hell you’ve got pilots from ‘both sides’ flying the 73 and A32 saying the same thing...but if we are just going to spin that merry go round of fucking chickens, what’s the point of discussion at all?

[Blotto 23418]

This thread has blown right past regular circle jerk  territory, and is now firmly in mobius strip jerk territory. 

[elfenix 34168]

1 hour ago, DaysOff said:

No shit. We've jerked that circle.

Runaway pitch trim procedure on Boeings hasn't changed in 50 years. You know when the trim is running on the 737 as a giant clanking wheel is trying hit your knee as it's running.

has runaway pitch trim procedure previously required you to fix it within seconds otherwise the computer was going to fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Just close the thread.  It can be the result of coverup at Boeing, a poorly funded and therefore lax enforcement agency, and pilots that were poorly trained/experienced who were trying to diagnose instead of recalling a memory item.  
 

That Hyatt collapse wasn’t only because the builder changed from the plans...the plans were not properly designed to support the weight in the first place, massive inflation and poor economics pushed builders to rush/cut corners, and oversight was poor.    
 

Just like AF447 was a confluence of design choices, weather and a terrible decision by a second officer operating under poor CRM.  
 

It wasn’t just Boeing.  It wasn’t just Boeing + the FAA.  Professionals here have given their opinions multiple times...hell you’ve got pilots from ‘both sides’ flying the 73 and A32 saying the same thing...but if we are just going to spin that merry go round of fucking chickens, what’s the point of discussion at all?

No it started with Boeing.  They knowingly hid a major defect.

Not sure I agree about the Hyat failure. The original design was adequete I believe. It was a revised that wasn't checked properly.

[Homercles 10205]

14 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

No it started with Boeing.  They knowingly hid a major defect.

Not sure I agree about the Hyat failure. The original design was adequete I believe. It was a revised that wasn't checked properly.

 

Analysis of these two details revealed that the original design of the rod hanger connection would have supported 90 kN, only 60% of the 151 kN required by the Kansas City building code. Even if the details had not been modified the rod hanger connection would have violated building standards. As-built, however, the connection only supported 30% of the minimum load which explains why the walkways collapsed well below maximum load

https://web.archive.org/web/20070814044511/http://www.eng.uab.edu/cee/faculty/ndelatte/case_studies_project/Hyatt Regency/hyatt.htm

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

17 minutes ago, elfenix said:

has runaway pitch trim procedure previously required you to fix it within seconds otherwise the computer was going to fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground?

Yes. If anything a normal runaway trim situation is worse as the trim moves much faster than MCAS activations. 

In that respect MCAS trim activation is more insidious, because it’s much slower and possibly less noticeable. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Homercles said:

 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20070814044511/http://www.eng.uab.edu/cee/faculty/ndelatte/case_studies_project/Hyatt Regency/hyatt.htm

Damn, I believed...... wrongly.

[Your Mom 4789]

23 minutes ago, elfenix said:

has runaway pitch trim procedure previously required you to fix it within seconds otherwise the computer was going to fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground?

Yes. That’s exactly what the trim running away does. The MCAS is a new cause of this but it doesn’t change the result of it.  From a pilots point of view the cause is irrelevant, all causes of runaway trim result in the airplane either nose-diving in or trying to aggressively stall you nose-high.  It has always required a fast recovery to avoid becoming a crater. The only thing that has changed is that the fucked up MCAS design has created a new reason for the trim to runaway. Other reasons that have caused the same condition in years past are faulty trim switches, faulty electric motors, bad servos, and probably more I don’t know about.  But the characteristics of it don’t change based on what caused it. 

[Pato del Muerto 52321]

53 minutes ago, Blotto said:

This thread has blown right past regular circle jerk  territory, and is now firmly in mobius strip jerk territory. 

[Murfdogg21 4412]

I appreciate all the pilots’ responses on this thread. Very interesting. 

[Upgrayedd 5803]

14 hours ago, Blotto said:

This thread has blown right past regular circle jerk  territory, and is now firmly in mobius strip jerk territory. 

You know what the definition of a fierce competitor is?  The one that finishes first and third in a circle jerk.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21780]

20 hours ago, DaysOff said:

No shit. We've jerked that circle.

Runaway pitch trim procedure on Boeings hasn't changed in 50 years. You know when the trim is running on the 737 as a giant clanking wheel is trying hit your knee as it's running.

When trim is running away from my pitch I usually have to go home and jerk that circle

[Eskimohorn 5610]

It’s all ball bearings, nowadays!

[Wally Fairway 5517]

Reportedly Boeing is looking to sell 737's already built, but for cancelled orders. These likely will be discounted.

What say we all come together and but 1? It will make a great conversation starter at Surly tailgates

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-cancelled-737-max-sales/amp/

[Captainant 27309]

46 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Reportedly Boeing is looking to sell 737's already built, but for cancelled orders. These likely will be discounted.

What say we all come together and but 1? It will make a great conversation starter at Surly tailgates

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-cancelled-737-max-sales/amp/

Just think of the banners we could fly

[Brisketexan 104462]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Just think of the banners we could fly

Yeah, but who the hell would we get to fly it for us?

Wait....I've got it....

[C-Man 26991]

On 9/16/2020 at 2:34 PM, Bobby_Batronic said:

I believe it was the same airplane with a different crew and the jumpseater recognized the situation and responded correctly. The first part may be off. The second part is correct. 

Hell, I seem to recall it was that same plane the day before as it flew in the airport it flew out of the next day on its last flight.

[RPM 26185]

59 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Just think of the banners we could fly

[Eskimohorn 5610]

Just think of the banners we could fly

Chris Ash and Boeing are not our standard

[Telegraph_it 3353]

Could these pilots stop screwing up this thread!? What do they know about airmanship or trim..?

[Updawg 2260]

I’m not getting on that fucking plane but I’ll chip in for gas

Ass,grass or cash...

[NeverMarryAStripper 21780]

9 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

Reportedly Boeing is looking to sell 737's already built, but for cancelled orders. These likely will be discounted.

What say we all come together and but 1? It will make a great conversation starter at Surly tailgates

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-cancelled-737-max-sales/amp/

Yeah, the Bobs can sell tickets on it to go to the Okie Lite game in Stillwater

Edited October 3, 2020 by NeverMarryAStripper

[Rockwell Torrey 1276]

14 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

Chris Ash and Boeing are not our standard

This plane is ash, my dude

[Wally Fairway 5517]

It's back, or at least being scheduled for passenger flights in the near future

https://www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/american-airlines-quietly-made-a-decision-thatll-disturb-everyone/

I'd add a poll if I could

Would you fly out, in the next year?

Y/N?

[Shoxthemonkey 1976]

I would fly on a domestic airline Max. I would not fly a foreign carrier. It has much more to do with my distrust of the training and qualifications of foreign pilots than my distrust of Boeing.

Edit to add that I have already flown on the Max twice prior to it being grounded.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Shoxthemonkey

[XYZ 2154]

Y