Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

[Ghost of LL 15348]

On 1/6/2024 at 1:55 PM, Bevo said:

One of their issues is that they are competing against a company that is subsidized by multiple countries and can afford poor decisions.

I really don't want to hear it when Boeing gets all the largesse that it does from the DOD.  It's all dressed up as a procurement, but let's be real clear--the United States Government makes sure nothing too bad happens to Boeing.

On 1/7/2024 at 9:14 AM, FartingMonk said:

I bet my bottom dollar NTSB finds out there were no bolts installed and QA/QC ate a dick

It's the only explanation I can come up with, but it's an absolutely shocking conclusion to reach.

Boeing has a real corporate-culture problem right now that needs to be addressed ASAP.

[Telegraph_it 3353]

1 minute ago, Ghost of LL said:

I really don't want to hear it when Boeing gets all the largesse that it does from the DOD.  It's all dressed up as a procurement, but let's be real clear--the United States Government makes sure nothing too bad happens to Boeing.

It's the only explanation I can come up with, but it's an absolutely shocking conclusion to reach.

Boeing has a real corporate-culture problem right now that needs to be addressed ASAP.

They canceled their executive retreat! Things are happening. 

[Brisketexan 104462]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I really don't want to hear it when Boeing gets all the largesse that it does from the DOD.  It's all dressed up as a procurement, but let's be real clear--the United States Government makes sure nothing too bad happens to Boeing.

It's the only explanation I can come up with, but it's an absolutely shocking conclusion to reach.

Boeing has a real corporate-culture problem right now that needs to be addressed ASAP.

Word is they've brought in a consulting outfit that has years of expertise in bolting things on....

[Bevo 13493]

13 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I really don't want to hear it when Boeing gets all the largesse that it does from the DOD.  It's all dressed up as a procurement, but let's be real clear--the United States Government makes sure nothing too bad happens to Boeing.

I agree that Airbus is directly subsidized by the EU and that Boeing is indirectly subsidized through defense contracts. However, that doesn't change the fact that the need for subsidies changes the way that these companies do business. Financial constraints can lead toward more accounting business leadership and away from engineering led leadership. And accounting led leadership often leads to poor engineering and manufacturing controls as both those areas are often considered cost centers rather than profit centers. It doesn't excuse Boeing in the slightest, it only explains how these things crop up in business. It happens in every industry.

[DaysOff 7821]

Boeing departed from engineering leadership after the McDonnell Douglas merger. The company became Boeing in name only.

[SquishMitten 10395]

On 1/5/2024 at 11:40 PM, ClubWhatever said:

It looks like the seat cover was sucked off the seat next to the hole.   If somebody had been sitting there they would probably be gone, seatbelt or not.

I believe those are similar to fitted sheets and can be removed for cleaning. The seat belt is attached to the chair frame which appears to be fully intact. At least that’s what I’m going to tell myself. 

[FartingMonk 3606]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

I really don't want to hear it when Boeing gets all the largesse that it does from the DOD.  It's all dressed up as a procurement, but let's be real clear--the United States Government makes sure nothing too bad happens to Boeing.

It's the only explanation I can come up with, but it's an absolutely shocking conclusion to reach.

Boeing has a real corporate-culture problem right now that needs to be addressed ASAP.

Yeah.  If a singular bolt was missing.  I would be like eh, shit happens.  An entire fucking door panel that establishes your pressure boundary.  That's a who the fuck was asleep at the wheel

[ClubWhatever 12085]

40 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Boeing departed from engineering leadership after the McDonnell Douglas merger. The company became Boeing in name only.

They've had plenty of leaders who are ex-engineers.  The problem is they have all been indoctrinated into the Jack Welch shareholder value cult as a condition of advancement.  It's the product, stupid.

[ClubWhatever 12085]

38 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

I believe those are similar to fitted sheets and can be removed for cleaning. The seat belt is attached to the chair frame which appears to be fully intact. At least that’s what I’m going to tell myself. 

If you were belted in tight, your torso would get blown into the 500 mph jet stream and your head would play bongos on the fuselage.   You might not get sucked out, but the end result is the same. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13391]

17 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

If you were belted in tight, your torso would get blown into the 500 mph jet stream and your head would play bongos on the fuselage.   You might not get sucked out, but the end result is the same. 

If you're belted in and the integrity of the seat/floor bracket remains solid, is there a risk of you falling out?

[Bateshorn 9882]

Boeing rents like half the office space in Pentagon City.  I drive by it everytime I make a Costco run.  I get they are separate businesses between civil and military, but overall, they are printing money. 

[ClubWhatever 12085]

14 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

If you're belted in and the integrity of the seat/floor bracket remains solid, is there a risk of you falling out?

Probably not much.   But the outrush of air is so strong and sudden that you can't keep your upper body from being blown outside.   This happened on the SWA flight where the window broke due to shrapnel from an engine failure.   The lady in that seat was killed by getting blown partially out the open window and slammed into the fuselage by the airstream.

[Blotto 23418]

38 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Boeing rents like half the office space in Pentagon City.  I drive by it everytime I make a Costco run.  I get they are separate businesses between civil and military, but overall, they are printing money. 

I would have assumed that was the case, but a look at their income statement the last 5 years proves otherwise. How the fuck they cant turn a profit is beyond me, but apparently their defense business is somehow a big money loser

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-struggles-steer-defense-unit-another-year-billion-dollar-losses-2023-10-27/

Quote

Boeing's (BA.N) defense business is proving harder to turn around than executives initially predicted, with supplier errors and high manufacturing costs contributing to $1.7 billion in losses this year on programs like the next Air Force One and NASA's Starliner capsule.

Despite absorbing $4.4 billion in losses in 2022 – which executives said would lower the risk of future cost overruns – the unit has seen little improvement this year.

Excluding last year, losses on Boeing's defense programs in 2023 exceed those from all years since 2014, according to a Reuters review of Boeing’s regulatory filings.

Boeing is unique among its defense contractor peers, as companies like Lockheed Martin (LMT.N), General Dynamics (GD.N) and RTX (RTX.N) are seeing higher revenues due to demand from the war in Ukraine.

Unlike those companies, however, Boeing is locked into handful of contracts that force the planemaker to take a loss when technology development goes over budget.

The defense unit's losses this year include $933 million in charges in the third quarter, mostly comprising a $482-million loss building two Air Force One planes and a $315-million charge on an unidentified satellite program that had not previously lost money.

 

Edited January 8 by Blotto

[Bateshorn 9882]

6 minutes ago, Blotto said:

I would have assumed that was the case, but a look at their income statement the last 5 years proves otherwise. How the fuck they cant turn a profit is beyond me, but apparently their defense business is somehow a big money loser

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-struggles-steer-defense-unit-another-year-billion-dollar-losses-2023-10-27/

 

I will say, and seriously, no CR, Trump did snooker the fuck outta them on that Air Force One Contract.  They were so desperate to get in the Administration's good graces they signed a no overage contract with required delivery. 

Narrator: "The project ran millions over estimate"

Buncha dummies. 

Edited January 8 by Bateshorn

[FartingMonk 3606]

14 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I will say, and seriously, no CR, Trump did snooker the fuck outta them on that Air Force One Contract.  They were so desperate to get in the Administration's good graces they signed a no overage contract with required delivery. 

Narrator: "The project ran millions over estimate"

Buncha dummies. 

They all should be made to sign no overage contracts.  The government gets their shit pushed in by the defense contractors all the time

 

[tx 3 putt 76158]

2 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

They canceled their executive retreat! Things are happening. 

I doubt they got a refund on the ‘talent’ 

Edited January 8 by tx 3 putt

[tx 3 putt 76158]

4 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

They all should be made to sign no overage contracts.  The government gets their shit pushed in by the defense contractors all the time

 

 

 

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 hours ago, DaysOff said:

Boeing departed from engineering leadership after the McDonnell Douglas merger. The company became Boeing in name only.

pretty sure someone at some point got their shareholder value though

long as that shareholder value is protected in the short term, fuck long term business success

[Captainant 27309]

3 hours ago, Bevo said:

Financial constraints can lead toward more accounting business leadership and away from engineering led leadership.

"""Financial constraints""" normally means some pissant financial analyst set a sales goal that was not realistic, but the can-do MBA middle manager doesn't know shit about fuck so they run their part of the company as if missing that synthetic target would harm the business - and do massive damage to long term stability in the process. 

It's how you end up with Boeing selling off and outsourcing their manufacturing and QA and every other meaningful part of their business. They all get framed as cost centers, rather than investments for long term business stability. 

It all reeks of brainless following of whatever the consultant of the week said last time they stopped by. It's great for meeting next quarters targets, but it'll fall apart after enough time. Just ask Jack Welch how that goes - one of his MBA prodigies is fucking over Boeing as it's CEO right now.

It's always the same fuckers running the same playbook. And it always fucking end the same way with enshittification 

[ClubWhatever 12085]

Boeing effectively guaranteed these quality problems by outsourcing the manufacturing and then demanding ever more cost savings out of these suppliers.  "Reduce your costs 25% or we'll find somebody else."  The only way the suppliers can keep meeting these cost targets is to cut pay, benefits, investment, etc and therefore the skill of its workforce; or they can turn around and outsource down another tier (which just passes the same quality problem down a tier).  Having a skilled, equipped, motivated workforce that knows how to build quality machinery is expensive.  It does not support growing profit margins to be in line with Wall Street expectations.

[Bevo 13493]

30 minutes ago, Captainant said:

"""Financial constraints""" normally means some pissant financial analyst set a sales goal that was not realistic, but the can-do MBA middle manager doesn't know shit about fuck so they run their part of the company as if missing that synthetic target would harm the business - and do massive damage to long term stability in the process. 

I am speaking in more strategic terms - Boeing didn't have many competitors so it could build what it wanted, build how it wanted, and sell at whatever price it wanted. Once, Airbus became a competitor, it was forced to build and sell at a competitive price. And so, it became accounting run to keep costs down. Think about GM in the early 80s. It took awhile for GM to stop building cheap plastic stuff to save money and even now, its reputation suffers from the cheap shit it built 40 years ago.

[SuperSport 1328]

 

 

[Blotto 23418]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

It all reeks of brainless following of whatever the consultant of the week said last time they stopped by. It's great for meeting next quarters targets, but it'll fall apart after enough time. Just ask Jack Welch how that goes - one of his MBA prodigies is fucking over Boeing as it's CEO right now.

It's always the same fuckers running the same playbook. And it always fucking end the same way with enshittification 

All those guys paid careful attention to Jack back in the day

Quote

In 2020, Boeing had a historically bad year, reporting a $12 billion loss and laying off 30,000 workers. At the same time, Calhoun earned $21.1 million in compensation.[9]

Executives in this country have no fucking shame. And they all sit on each others boards just rubber stamping these ridiculous executive compensation packages. 

[bschoolprof 6232]

If a different airline (United) is finding loose bolts across multiple relatively new planes, sounds like a Boeing issue, not an Alaska issue.  

[Bateshorn 9882]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

I am speaking in more strategic terms - Boeing didn't have many competitors so it could build what it wanted, build how it wanted, and sell at whatever price it wanted. Once, Airbus became a competitor, it was forced to build and sell at a competitive price. And so, it became accounting run to keep costs down. Think about GM in the early 80s. It took awhile for GM to stop building cheap plastic stuff to save money and even now, its reputation suffers from the cheap shit it built 40 years ago.

There's some truth here, but the McDonnell Douglas execs who took over Boeing (that's my favorite part of the merger, somehow through financial wizardry, McDonnell Douglas used Boeing's money to be bought and take control of BA!)  also were the ones who moved the HQ to Chicago expressly to get the managers away from the engineers in Seattle.  Basically they couldn't cut costs the way they wanted too if the engineers could walk in somebodies office and say "This is going to kill people and let me explain why"

[MrBig 5279]

24 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

There's some truth here, but the McDonnell Douglas execs who took over Boeing (that's my favorite part of the merger, somehow through financial wizardry, McDonnell Douglas used Boeing's money to be bought and take control of BA!)  also were the ones who moved the HQ to Chicago expressly to get the managers away from the engineers in Seattle.  Basically they couldn't cut costs the way they wanted too if the engineers could walk in somebodies office and say "This is going to kill people and let me explain why"

Boeing is lucky nobody was killed. The odds of those seats being empty is unbelievable since airlines oversell flights so much.

When was the last time an American was killed in a large airliner accident aside from the woman on the Southwest flight? 

[AUS-97HORN 11654]

4 minutes ago, MrBig said:

Boeing is lucky nobody was killed. The odds of those seats being empty is unbelievable since airlines oversell flights so much.

When was the last time an American was killed in a large airliner accident aside from the woman on the Southwest flight? 

the two women run over when the 777 landed short of the SFO runway and broke into 3 pieces.

[ClubWhatever 12085]

43 minutes ago, SuperSport said:

 

 

This is nuts (no pun).  It looks like the assembly and installation of that door on multiple airplanes was a total shit show, with zero quality control.  There needs to be a stand down of whatever unit does this work with all other critical joints they worked on also reviewed.   I wouldn't let these airplanes fly again until that is done.

Edited January 8 by ClubWhatever

[SuperSport 1328]

Something was signed off wrongly (incorrect torque value, improper safety wire/loctite install, etc.) or the signoff was overlooked (shift change, out-of-sequence work, etc.), but a huge QC miss either way. Would love to know who's truly responsible, but the unions are pretty good about shielding their own from scrutiny...assuming there was no alcohol or malicious intent involved.

[FartingMonk 3606]

19 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

This is nuts (no pun).  It looks like the assembly and installation of that door on multiple airplanes was a total shit show, with zero quality control.  There needs to be a stand down of whatever unit does this work with all other critical joints they worked on also reviewed.   I wouldn't let these airplanes fly again until that is done.

I've been a second checker on many things.  How there isn't a torque value and an initial next to each one of those bolts is appalling.  And I'm sure one of the pre certs is to pressurize the plane to probably 5-10 psi.  This is just amazing 

[Anastasis 23375]

45 minutes ago, SuperSport said:

Something was signed off wrongly (incorrect torque value, improper safety wire/loctite install, etc.) or the signoff was overlooked (shift change, out-of-sequence work, etc.), but a huge QC miss either way. Would love to know who's truly responsible, but the unions are pretty good about shielding their own from scrutiny...assuming there was no alcohol or malicious intent involved.

Seems like a more systematic issue given they are finding issues with other planes and operators. 

[Brisketexan 104462]

1 hour ago, ClubWhatever said:

This is nuts (no pun).  It looks like the assembly and installation of that door on multiple airplanes was a total shit show, with zero quality control.  There needs to be a stand down of whatever unit does this work with all other critical joints they worked on also reviewed.   I wouldn't let these airplanes fly again until that is done.

 

Just now, Anastasis said:

Seems like a more systematic issue given they are finding issues with other planes and operators. 

These.

Just mind-boggling that such a thing can happen and be a systematic problem.  A bizarre one-off due to wacky circumstances would be bad enough.  But if there's a demonstrated systematic failure to properly assemble THIS part of the fuselage....there could damned well be other assemblies that were done improperly as well.

Boeing needs a top-down, no-stone-unturned audit/investigation.  Not just as to specific safety items like this, but to their entire manufacturing culture and processes.  Every member of the Board of Directors has a duty to demand that.

[Anastasis 23375]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

These.

Just mind-boggling that such a thing can happen and be a systematic problem.  A bizarre one-off due to wacky circumstances would be bad enough.  But if there's a demonstrated systematic failure to properly assemble THIS part of the fuselage....there could damned well be other assemblies that were done improperly as well.

Boeing needs a top-down, no-stone-unturned audit/investigation.  Not just as to specific safety items like this, but to their entire manufacturing culture and processes.  Every member of the Board of Directors has a duty to demand that.

From an article in my Apple feed. 
 

The door plug, like the rest of the Max 9 fuselage, is manufactured by Spirit AeroSystems, a Boeing supplier based in Wichita, Kansas.

"We are grateful the Alaska Airlines crew performed the appropriate procedures to land the airplane with all passengers and crew safe," the company said in a statement.

"At Spirit AeroSystems, our primary focus is the quality and product integrity of the aircraft structures we deliver. Spirit is a committed partner with Boeing on the 737 program, and we continue to work together with them on this matter," the statement said.

The company's previous CEO stepped down in October amid problems with production and was replaced by a former Boeing executive.

[FartingMonk 3606]

Ah yes.  The old fuck the whistle blower and replace him with a corporate shill.  How Boeing of you.

[Brisketexan 104462]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

From an article in my Apple feed. 
 

The door plug, like the rest of the Max 9 fuselage, is manufactured by Spirit AeroSystems, a Boeing supplier based in Wichita, Kansas.

"We are grateful the Alaska Airlines crew performed the appropriate procedures to land the airplane with all passengers and crew safe," the company said in a statement.

"At Spirit AeroSystems, our primary focus is the quality and product integrity of the aircraft structures we deliver. Spirit is a committed partner with Boeing on the 737 program, and we continue to work together with them on this matter," the statement said.

The company's previous CEO stepped down in October amid problems with production and was replaced by a former Boeing executive.

Well, that just tells us who MADE the fuselage and plug.  It doesn't tell us who did the assembly (I don't know -- and can't tell from that article, or anything else I've found).  This doesn't look to be a fabrication problem, it looks to be an assembly failure.  Who was responsible for the assembly?  The answer to that question will lead to all the rest of the answers we're looking for.

Truly amazing.

If the failure is the failure to install the bolts....it's like an auto manufacturer forgetting to screw on the lugnuts of the wheels of cars it's assembling.  It's a pretty basic fucking thing.

[InkaUtexas 25423]

Yeah, door did not get banged up as much as I thought.

Also, why not just have a door where it is designed to go? I mean is less emergency exits a good thing?

[DaysOff 7821]

Lolz. The airlines are a profit gig (sometimes).

[FartingMonk 3606]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yeah, door did not get banged up as much as I thought.

Also, why not just have a door where it is designed to go? I mean is less emergency exits a good thing?

I think it's a cost issue.  That plug might be 10k or so.  The emergency exit door with that slide is half a million.  And then the door you would have to keep maintaining it.

[elfenix 34167]

4 hours ago, Captainant said:

"""Financial constraints""" normally means some pissant financial analyst set a sales goal that was not realistic, but the can-do MBA middle manager doesn't know shit about fuck so they run their part of the company as if missing that synthetic target would harm the business - and do massive damage to long term stability in the process. 

It's how you end up with Boeing selling off and outsourcing their manufacturing and QA and every other meaningful part of their business. They all get framed as cost centers, rather than investments for long term business stability. 

It all reeks of brainless following of whatever the consultant of the week said last time they stopped by. It's great for meeting next quarters targets, but it'll fall apart after enough time. Just ask Jack Welch how that goes - one of his MBA prodigies is fucking over Boeing as it's CEO right now.

It's always the same fuckers running the same playbook. And it always fucking end the same way with enshittification 

it's the same thinking that leads some little consumer geekeroid to change from a 16 oz roll of sausage to a 12 oz roll of sausage.

 

[InkaUtexas 25423]

14 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

I think it's a cost issue.  That plug might be 10k or so.  The emergency exit door with that slide is half a million.  And then the door you would have to keep maintaining it.

understand, but they fleece people as it is so maybe they should keep up safety?

Edited January 9 by InkaUtexas

[conVINCEd 21468]

4 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

I think it's a cost issue.  That plug might be 10k or so.  The emergency exit door with that slide is half a million.  And then the door you would have to keep maintaining it.

Aren’t there rules for how many emergency exits you need versus how many passengers you can carry?  

[FartingMonk 3606]

Just now, conVINCEd said:

Aren’t there rules for how many emergency exits you need versus how many passengers you can carry?  

There is.  I don't know what the number is but I think someone mentioned based on the config.  That extra door isn't needed so they plug it.

[royiv 9131]

1 minute ago, conVINCEd said:

Aren’t there rules for how many emergency exits you need versus how many passengers you can carry?  

Yes. They manufacture it with the capability to have an exit there for high density operators who pack even more seats in to the plane. Ironically, if Alaska had an actual door there it would cost them seats in their configuration due to the extra legroom for the exit and losing the window seat next to the door.

[Surly Bevo 24692]

43 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Every member of the Board of Directors has a duty to demand that.

The members of the BoD should all resign

[Surly Bevo 24692]

8 minutes ago, elfenix said:

it's the same thinking that leads some little consumer geekeroid to change from a 16 oz roll of sausage to a 12 oz roll of sausage.

 

 

[bschoolprof 6232]

"Larry, you put the damn bolts on didn't you?"

"Well, yeah, but you didn't say I needed to tighten them."  

[Deej 76509]

They should consult with NowThis about keeping a plug in place

.

[ClubWhatever 12085]

9 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

"Larry, you put the damn bolts on didn't you?"

"Well, yeah, but you didn't say I needed to tighten them."  

More like:  Did Larry tighten those bolts?

Who's Larry?  Oh the dude who quit last week?  He went back to Home Depot man.

Alright well I stamped it.

 

[MrBig 5279]

[Brisketexan 104462]

it's the same thinking that leads some little consumer geekeroid to change from a 16 oz roll of sausage to a 12 oz roll of sausage.
 

This reference will get rep from me 100% of the time.