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Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

Nueces River Rat

By Nueces River Rat
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Captainant

Captainant 27309

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, SuperSport said:

Would love to know who's truly responsible, but the unions are pretty good about shielding their own from scrutiny...assuming there was no alcohol or malicious intent involved.

Lmfao Boeing outsourced this to avoid dealing with unions. This is what you get when you cut costs to the bone. Fuck ups. 

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Bobby_Batronic
Bobby_Batronic

Incorrect. MCAS didn’t kill two planes worth of people. Pilots failing to react to an inadvertent nose down pitch input correctly as per their MEMORY ITEMS, killed two planes worth of people. Someone

Ghost of LL
Ghost of LL

Oh, my everloving fucking god, will you please stop trying to make some innane political point with every fucking post on every fucking topic?  It's exhausting.  It's exhausting to an absolute mortify

Gatorubet
Gatorubet

“Could you make sure that the bolts to the side panel are fastened so I don’t blow out the plane?” “Sure….that will be an extra $23.”

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Captainant

Captainant 27309

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, elfenix said:

spirit's a union shop.

Boeing doesn't deal with the union, spirit does. Boeing doesn't have to go with spirit, but they do even though Spirit has a fuckin track record of failing to properly bolt bolts

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-urges-737-max-inspections-possible-loose-bolt-faa-2023-12-28/

Edit: this article doesn't link spirit to the loose rudder bolt problem, so my bad on that. However. 737MAXs be having hella loose bolts, yo. Which is generally not advisable 

Edited by Captainant
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MissingInAction

MissingInAction 24765

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Captainant said:

UAL has found 5 more planes with loose bolts on plug doors. 

https://theaircurrent.com/feed/dispatches/united-finds-loose-bolts-on-plug-doors-during-737-max-9-inspections/

Inb4 some more braindead defense of Boeing 

I will never understand why anyone would defend a giant corporation.

The elmo fanbois, and now Boeing fanbois.

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11532

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Captainant said:

Boeing doesn't deal with the union, spirit does. Boeing doesn't have to go with spirit, but they do even though Spirit has a fuckin track record of failing to properly bolt bolts

Jesus dude give the workers of the world unite bullshit a bit of a fucking break.

Boeing is unionized.  So is the vendor.  What more do you fucking want?

 

Would seem to me its going to boil down to the spec and certification documents on who was responsible for the integrity of the plug.    Alaska will seemingly eat some shit here too because as reported the plane had given a few decompression warnings recently

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9882

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Jesus dude give the workers of the world unite bullshit a bit of a fucking break.

Boeing is unionized.  So is the vendor.  What more do you fucking want?

 

Would seem to me its going to boil down to the spec and certification documents on who was responsible for the integrity of the plug.    Alaska will seemingly eat some shit here too because as reported the plane had given a few decompression warnings recently

Alaska is notoriously bad at Maintenance. Flight is based on real world Alaska airlines incident, but Whip did not in the end save the day, although the plane was flown upside down for a bit. 

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Captainant

Captainant 27309

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Jesus dude give the workers of the world unite bullshit a bit of a fucking break.

Boeing is unionized.  So is the vendor.  What more do you fucking want?

 

Would seem to me its going to boil down to the spec and certification documents on who was responsible for the integrity of the plug.    Alaska will seemingly eat some shit here too because as reported the plane had given a few decompression warnings recently

Well for one they should probably be paying their aircraft assembly and machinist folks more than $45k/yr (according to Glassdoor) which is basically $20/hr. It's no wonder they're turning out fast food quality airplanes. They're paying fast food level wages to the people that are building fucking 200 person airlines. 

Also this isn't just an Alaska airlines thing. United has found multiple planes with the bolts missing upon doing their maintenance checks. This is a "profit above safety" corporate culture issue. I'd like them to fix that culture issue and treat their skilled labor like skilled labor, but that doesn't make beancounters happy

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RPM

RPM 26185

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

I will never understand why anyone would defend a giant corporation.

The elmo fanbois, and now Boeing fanbois.

Used to know a guy from another message board that was a long time Boeing employee working low level management. He was a company man to the bone. Nobody new anything better than Boeing.

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11532

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Well for one they should probably be paying their aircraft assembly and machinist folks more than $45k/yr (according to Glassdoor) which is basically $20/hr. It's no wonder they're turning out fast food quality airplanes. They're paying fast food level wages to the people that are building fucking 200 person airlines. 

Shouldn't the union take care of that?  I have been told REPEATEDLY they are the answer to all economic issues.

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ClubWhatever

ClubWhatever 12085

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Turning bolts to a torque that the wrench is calibrated to shouldn’t be this spotty.  Easy to do, easy to check. 

The missing bolts are supposed to have cotter pins.   So even if the torque is wrong they have a secondary locking method.  It feels like the installation was completed halfway and then never completed.   Like a shift change snafu.

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Lat22

Lat22 3990

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Turning bolts to a torque that the wrench is calibrated to shouldn’t be this spotty.  Easy to do, easy to check. 

Just add a little torque paint and voila!

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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 52321

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

Like sending the entire world home for months on end and then a resultant massive brain drain of boomer retirements kind of shift change SNAFU?

Jesus Christ buddy take a break. I don’t think reading a spec sheet and using a torque wrench is the kind of institutional knowledge that gets lost when employees leave. 
 

you don’t stop until you can attribute anything to a policy enacted by your political opponent. 

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25423

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

The missing bolts are supposed to have cotter pins.   So even if the torque is wrong they have a secondary locking method.  It feels like the installation was completed halfway and then never completed.   Like a shift change snafu.

We ran into something like that with equipment maintenance. Solution, have QC come in staggered so they were the point of review. Was not perfect, but did improve the situation.

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Blotto

Blotto 23418

Posted
Posted
49 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Well for one they should probably be paying their aircraft assembly and machinist folks more than $45k/yr (according to Glassdoor) which is basically $20/hr. It's no wonder they're turning out fast food quality airplanes. They're paying fast food level wages to the people that are building fucking 200 person airlines. 

Also this isn't just an Alaska airlines thing. United has found multiple planes with the bolts missing upon doing their maintenance checks. This is a "profit above safety" corporate culture issue. I'd like them to fix that culture issue and treat their skilled labor like skilled labor, but that doesn't make beancounters happy

Glassdoor is about as accurate as those NIL reports telling us what athletes are getting. its garbage in/garbage out, and with the latest union contract (mid 23) who knows how accurate the data is.

But it seems that most of what I am reading lays the blame on Boeing, rather than Spirit. This sounds plausible, but who knows: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-aero-made-blowout-part-boeing-has-key-role-sources-2024-01-07/

 

Quote

The 737 MAX 9, currently Boeing's largest single-aisle, seating up to 220 people, includes an optional extra door to allow for the approved number of evacuation paths whenever carriers opt to install the maximum number of seats.

But most airlines using the jet have chosen a looser layout based on a smaller number of seats and do not need the surplus door, which adds weight and reduces flexibility in the cabin. Instead the door is deactivated before delivery, using a "plug."

Other optional doors or fill-in replacement structures were also offered on a predecessor model, the 737-900ER.

As part of the production process, Spirit builds fuselages for 737s and sends them by train with the special door assembly “semi-rigged,” one of the people said.

“They are fitted but not completed," the person said.

At its Renton, Washington, plant, Boeing typically removes the pop-out, or non-functioning, door and uses the gap to load interiors. Then, the part is put back and the installation in completed. Finally, the hull is pressurized to 150% to make sure everything is working correctly, the person said.

 

 

 

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FartingMonk

FartingMonk 3606

Posted
Posted

I've been to many oil and gas plants and when they are doing turnarounds.  They would assign random people to do closeout inspections.  Well, if you have never done a closeout inspection.  Then you don't know what you're looking for.  A lot of people are too prideful to ask what they are supposed to do for a closeout inspection.  So they just shine their flashlight in there and say yep. Looks good to me.  If you ever ask them what looks good.  That's when you're like hmmm......

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ClubWhatever

ClubWhatever 12085

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, RPM said:

On 6 aircraft?

I haven't seen any other reports of cotter pins missing or bolts not installed.   And it's kind of easier to understand not torquing bolts to spec than it is not installing hardware at all.   But yeah since it's just haphazard shit going on then who's to say on the accident airplane that one crew just forgot some parts.

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RPM

RPM 26185

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

I haven't seen any other reports of cotter pins missing or bolts not installed.

Delta United found 5 faulty plugs. So far.

 

Edited by RPM
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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5517

Posted
Posted

Hypothetically (asking for a friend) - if you were flying into Seattle this summer would you exclude Alaska Air and favor Delta (both offer direct/non-stop flights), or would you assume that 5-6 months out Boeing & AA will get this shit figured out?

Using wiki as a source:
Alaska Air - 66 of 231 aircraft are 737 Maxx (all but 1 being Maxx 9's)
Delta - 0 of 978 aircraft are 737 Maxx (though the do have 100 Maxx 10's on order)
I would fly Southwest for the free luggage - but I don't really want to see Midway, DIA, Sky Harbor or  Harry Reid along the way

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FartingMonk

FartingMonk 3606

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Hypothetically (asking for a friend) - if you were flying into Seattle this summer would you exclude Alaska Air and favor Delta (both offer direct/non-stop flights), or would you assume that 5-6 months out Boeing & AA will get this shit figured out?

Using wiki as a source:
Alaska Air - 66 of 231 aircraft are 737 Maxx (all but 1 being Maxx 9's)
Delta - 0 of 978 aircraft are 737 Maxx (though the do have 100 Maxx 10's on order)
I would fly Southwest for the free luggage - but I don't really want to see Midway, DIA, Sky Harbor or  Harry Reid along the way

It's the terrorist attack rule.  No place is safer than after a terrorist attack.  Those 737s are going to be inspected with a fine tooth comb.  Just gotta watch out for mushroom eating pilots

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royiv

royiv 9131

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

It's the terrorist attack rule.  No place is safer than after a terrorist attack.  Those 737s are going to be inspected with a fine tooth comb.  Just gotta watch out for mushroom eating pilots

The entire Max fleet was grounded for 18 months. Seems like that would have been a good time to inspect the planes with a fine tooth comb.

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FartingMonk

FartingMonk 3606

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Posted
36 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Counterpoint.  All 737 max planes just spent months and months grounded.  

 

30 minutes ago, royiv said:

The entire Max fleet was grounded for 18 months. Seems like that would have been a good time to inspect the planes with a fine tooth comb.

That is very true.  But if I had an electrical/electronics issue I wouldn't be checking my doors and windows for tightness

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FartingMonk

FartingMonk 3606

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Blotto said:

Glassdoor is about as accurate as those NIL reports telling us what athletes are getting. its garbage in/garbage out, and with the latest union contract (mid 23) who knows how accurate the data is.

But it seems that most of what I am reading lays the blame on Boeing, rather than Spirit. This sounds plausible, but who knows: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-aero-made-blowout-part-boeing-has-key-role-sources-2024-01-07/

 

 

 

 

That Renton plant is definitely a union shop and they are around 60 dollars an hour there.

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9882

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Chopper said:

What's the basis for your assertion? Their "safety rating" is the same as it is for every other major US airline.

Mostly because of Alaska 261 which was a maintenance failure. I guess Notoriously is probably a bit strong. 

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