Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

[DaysOff 8227]

 
Pretty good technical breakdown of what NTSB has found and told the public so far, delivered by an aircraft mechanic. Some harrowing details that were new to me: the cockpit door blew open when the door came off, the pilots headsets got sucked off their heads and blown out of the plane along with their fuckin emergency checklists, and that the (now found) door is missing one of its guides. It's very possible that the plug door was missing lock bolts AND structural bolts. Oh yeah and the cockpit door blowing open is officially a feature and not a bug - they just forgot to include that detail in the manual. I wonder what else Boeing omitted from the manual. 
 
I'm very glad I flew a 90s era 737-900er home today and not a Boeing plane made within the last decade

That 900er has the same plug.

[Captainant 28629]

23 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

That 900er has the same plug.

Yes, but it wasn't assembled by the current generation of Boeing that cares more about profitability than safety

[Dahobbs 18449]

22 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Yes, but it wasn't assembled by the current generation of Boeing that cares more about profitability than safety

QA at Boeing appears extraordinarily bad right now apparently. I don't know how you can really trust that it has done anything correctly in the manufacture or design of its planes. 

[royiv 9942]

14 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

QA at Boeing appears extraordinarily bad right now apparently. I don't know how you can really trust that it has done anything correctly in the manufacture or design of its planes. 

I don't know about that. Seems like some young MBA has upper management written all over him for an innovative materials and labor cost savings program by eliminating pesky bolts.

[CycleTex87 3047]

All these cheeky quips about missing bolts are funny and all, but I’m really interested to hear the root cause failure in this deal.  Like mentioned above, the plugs are a commonly installed item and it’s not likely that the design has changed in decades so it’s unlikely a design flaw.  Properly torqued bolts at 100 ft-lbs and improperly torqued bolts at 85 ft-lbs you likely won’t have any issues either, even though the under torqued bolts are “loose”.  So back to assembly procedures and oversight by someone, company/contractor division of responsibility, etc. 

If my subcontractor screws something up in my product it’s still my fault for lack of oversight. 

[SuperSport 1375]

1 hour ago, royiv said:

I don't know about that. Seems like some young MBA has upper management written all over him for an innovative materials and labor cost savings program by eliminating pesky bolts.

Reminds me of a budget planning meeting I was in a few years back. Some supply chain finance analyst, fresh out of college, is looking through our current-year actuals and says "You spent a lot of money on...[visible confusion] engine borescopes?..this year. Will that be needed again next year, or could we maybe only do like half the amount?" We (the engineers) just laughed.

[Incredulity 11891]

12 hours ago, Captainant said:

Oh yeah and the cockpit door blowing open is officially a feature and not a bug - they just forgot to include that detail in the manual.

Is his assertion that other cockpit doors don't open during explosive depressurization?

He (the gentleman on the video) is very worked up about this, but doesn't go to the next step of WHY its a big issue beyond not being in the manual.  But, is it an out of the ordinary feature of a MAX plane?   I would somewhat assume so based on his tone, but he also discussed the need for ALL areas of the plane to be equalized during and explosive decompression.

 

Who are the pilots on the site?  I would be interested in their opinions.  @DaysOff  who else

[DaysOff 8227]

There's blowout panels in the door to equalize pressure during a rapid or explosive decompression. The door flying open seems improbable and certainly isn't in the flight manual. Of course, the fact that MCAS existed wasn't initially in the manual either. Frankly, if I can't control it, don't add shit my brain has to remember.

[Bevo 13948]

2 hours ago, royiv said:

I don't know about that. Seems like some young MBA has upper management written all over him for an innovative materials and labor cost savings program by eliminating pesky bolts.

I do know that if you don't place bolts, then you don't have to worry about stripping the aluminum door panels.

[ClubWhatever 12341]

3 hours ago, CycleTex87 said:

All these cheeky quips about missing bolts are funny and all, but I’m really interested to hear the root cause failure in this deal.  Like mentioned above, the plugs are a commonly installed item and it’s not likely that the design has changed in decades so it’s unlikely a design flaw.  Properly torqued bolts at 100 ft-lbs and improperly torqued bolts at 85 ft-lbs you likely won’t have any issues either, even though the under torqued bolts are “loose”.  So back to assembly procedures and oversight by someone, company/contractor division of responsibility, etc. 

If my subcontractor screws something up in my product it’s still my fault for lack of oversight. 

How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

at the surface level you have a supplier using unqualified or untrained personnel.   And QC people being either pressured or unavailable to sign off work.

at a deeper level you have the supplier needing to resort to these tactics to meet schedule and cost.

and why is that?  Because the top level product is inferior and must therefore compete on cost to make sales.

and that's because the company chose to modify a 60 year old design instead of doing a clean sheet.

and that's because meeting Wall Street growth expectations is the governing principle of management

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

3 hours ago, DaysOff said:

There's blowout panels in the door to equalize pressure during a rapid or explosive decompression. The door flying open seems improbable and certainly isn't in the flight manual. Of course, the fact that MCAS existed wasn't initially in the manual either. Frankly, if I can't control it, don't add shit my brain has to remember.

The bus has pressurization sensors on the overhead panel that will unlock the door during a depressurization.  It’s the two pencil sized holes next to the five yellow lights (3 strike plates, Channel A/B).  Simply blowing on them is enough to trigger it. The door is no longer locked, but is it latched securely enough to withstand a sudden depressurization? I hope to never find out. 

[FartingMonk 3630]

2 hours ago, ClubWhatever said:

How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

at the surface level you have a supplier using unqualified or untrained personnel.   And QC people being either pressured or unavailable to sign off work.

at a deeper level you have the supplier needing to resort to these tactics to meet schedule and cost.

and why is that?  Because the top level product is inferior and must therefore compete on cost to make sales.

and that's because the company chose to modify a 60 year old design instead of doing a clean sheet.

and that's because meeting Wall Street growth expectations is the governing principle of management

If you are in operations or engineering.  You know the enemy is the business group 

[Pato del Muerto 53633]

I don’t know if any of you have seen Boeing’s contracts, but do we know if there are severe financial penalties for missing key time points- like delivery date?  It’s funny how much gets accomplished in construction projects right before key dates that affect the financials. 

[ConferenceRoom 6215]

Periods do not function as commas. 

[RPM 26692]

We spent a lot on commas last quarter and have all these periods just laying around.

[RPM 26692]

Quote

 

In the immediate aftermath of the accident, it has now been revealed that Alaska Airlines sent an email to the 171 passengers onboard Flight 1282, which was meant to fly from Portland to Ontario, California, with an offer to refund their full ticket costs and provide counselling services.

It has also been reported that Alaska Airlines made an upfront offer of $1,500 per passenger to cover immediate out-of-pocket expenses – or as the airline described it: “to assist with inconveniences”.

In addition, Alaska Airlines has told the lucky passengers from Flight 1282 to expect complimentary upgrades for more legroom and free inflight snacks on their future flight booking… once, of course, they feel confident enough to fly again.

 

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2024/01/11/traumatised-passengers-from-alaska-airlines-flight-1282-offered-free-inflight-snacks-if-they-step-foot-onboard-a-plane-again/

[royiv 9942]

22 minutes ago, RPM said:

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2024/01/11/traumatised-passengers-from-alaska-airlines-flight-1282-offered-free-inflight-snacks-if-they-step-foot-onboard-a-plane-again/

They should probably up the offer to include free booze.

[FartingMonk 3630]

There are probably a million ambulance chasers calling them right now.  

[ROFL BOX 6658]

[EuroHorn 3295]

[Herbie Hancock 7518]

 

In the immediate aftermath of the accident, it has now been revealed that Alaska Airlines sent an email to the 171 passengers onboard Flight 1282, which was meant to fly from Portland to Ontario, California, with an offer to refund their full ticket costs and provide counselling services.

It has also been reported that Alaska Airlines made an upfront offer of $1,500 per passenger to cover immediate out-of-pocket expenses – or as the airline described it: “to assist with inconveniences”.

In addition, Alaska Airlines has told the lucky passengers from Flight 1282 to expect complimentary upgrades for more legroom and free inflight snacks on their future flight booking… once, of course, they feel confident enough to fly again.

 

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2024/01/11/traumatised-passengers-from-alaska-airlines-flight-1282-offered-free-inflight-snacks-if-they-step-foot-onboard-a-plane-again/

Airlines suck ass. Idk how much it costs, but two months ago I kept a flight from LaGuardia to DFW from making an emergency landing about 40 minutes into the flight. Doing so cost me the seats I had paid $200 extra in order to acquire via early boarding. Know what SW offered me as a show of gratitude? $100 flight voucher that expires in 12 months. Dickbags

[shakahorn 1660]

A buddy's aunt was on the Aloha flight where the roof blew off in the 90's.  According to my buddy, she got about $280k in a settlement.  Almost everyone on that flight took that settlement, I think there were like 2-3 holdouts out of 110 or so.  Well except for the flight attendant that got sucked out, no idea what her estate got.

So I think Alaska needs to go up just a bit from $1500.

[RPM 26692]

[RPM 26692]

1 minute ago, shakahorn said:

So I think Alaska needs to go up just a bit from $1500.

Boeing is just sitting in the corner with their sphincter clenched.

[royiv 9942]

1 minute ago, RPM said:

Herb is rolling over in his grave seeing what the airline he built has become. 

[RPM 26692]

Just now, royiv said:

Herb is rolling over in his grave seeing what the airline he built has become. 

I looked for "spinning Herb Kelleher" and that was the best result. We are of one mind.

[FartingMonk 3630]

9 minutes ago, shakahorn said:

A buddy's aunt was on the Aloha flight where the roof blew off in the 90's.  According to my buddy, she got about $280k in a settlement.  Almost everyone on that flight took that settlement, I think there were like 2-3 holdouts out of 110 or so.  Well except for the flight attendant that got sucked out, no idea what her estate got.

So I think Alaska needs to go up just a bit from $1500.

Alaska hired the guys from Pawn Stars to do their bidding

[Surly Bevo 25839]

18 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2024/01/11/traumatised-passengers-from-alaska-airlines-flight-1282-offered-free-inflight-snacks-if-they-step-foot-onboard-a-plane-again/

Airlines suck ass. Idk how much it costs, but two months ago I kept a flight from LaGuardia to DFW from making an emergency landing about 40 minutes into the flight. Doing so cost me the seats I had paid $200 extra in order to acquire via early boarding. Know what SW offered me as a show of gratitude? $100 flight voucher that expires in 12 months. Dickbags

You kept a flight from making an emergency landing?  Maybe more details?

[RPM 26692]

4 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

You kept a flight from making an emergency landing?  Maybe more details?

He plugged the missing plug.

[Herbie Hancock 7518]

You kept a flight from making an emergency landing?  Maybe more details?

It’s nothing cool I assure you. The shortest way to tell it is a passenger had a medical episode, and the first person to “help” was a crackpot nurse that was nuttier than a shithouse rat and was demanding we make an emergency landing immediately. A flight attendant requested anyone with medical experience report to the back of the plane. I overrode the nutjob and the captain said he would continue to our original destination only if I stayed with the passenger and kept in contact with Medlink? for the duration of the flight.

[FartingMonk 3630]

2 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

It’s nothing cool I assure you. The shortest way to tell it is a passenger had a medical episode, and the first person to “help” was a crackpot nurse that was nuttier than a shithouse rat and was demanding we make an emergency landing immediately. A flight attendant requested anyone with medical experience report to the back of the plane. I overrode the nutjob and the captain said he would continue to our original destination only if I stayed with the passenger and kept in contact with Medlink? for the duration of the flight.

Herbie Hancock is a Doctor.  What he didn't tell the pilot is he is a Doctor in Philosophy 

[RPM 26692]

I'm not a pilot, but I've flown a sim or two.

[Herbie Hancock 7518]

Herbie Hancock is a Doctor.  What he didn't tell the pilot is he is a Doctor in Philosophy 

I’m as much a philosopher as Immamac is a porn star.

[FartingMonk 3630]

[RPM 26692]

10 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

I’m as much a philosopher as Immamac is a porn star.

Instagram model/influencer

[Pig Bellmont 8889]

4 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

[RPM 26692]

Wacka wacka

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

4 hours ago, Herbie Hancock said:

It’s nothing cool I assure you. The shortest way to tell it is a passenger had a medical episode, and the first person to “help” was a crackpot nurse that was nuttier than a shithouse rat and was demanding we make an emergency landing immediately. A flight attendant requested anyone with medical experience report to the back of the plane. I overrode the nutjob and the captain said he would continue to our original destination only if I stayed with the passenger and kept in contact with Medlink? for the duration of the flight.

Medlink is who you call if there’s any medical issue in the back and they assume responsibility and liability for the flight diverting or continuing on.

You get a patch to a doctor on call after the FA’s  hand you a report on the passenger, dispatch listens in, and the doctor makes the decision. 

99 times out of 100 they tell you to give pax some orange juice and continue to destination. 

Edited January 12 by Bobby_Batronic

[Homercles 10206]

[Chopper 17460]

8 hours ago, EuroHorn said:

Just in case any of y'all are flying on a damaged plane with a missing plug or whatever at some point, please keep in mind that NO, it would NOT be insider trading if a random passenger inside the damaged plane shorted Boeing or the airline's stock before the news became known to the general public because a random traveler would owe no fiduciary duty to Boeing or the airline. If you have no fiduciary duty, you have no insider trading.

 

[Herbie Hancock 7518]

Medlink is who you call if there’s any medical issue in the back and they assume responsibility and liability for the flight diverting or continuing on.
You get a patch to a doctor on call after the FA’s  hand you a report on the passenger, dispatch listens in, and the doctor makes the decision. 
99 times out of 100 they tell you to give pax some orange juice and continue to destination. 

This was slightly more complicated than that, but nothing remotely close to warranting an emergency landing if you are anyone besides the incompetent hag nurse I had to deal with. I’m not a people person. I deal in facts and realities, and I’m fucking blunt when it comes to both. Luckily the flight crew were reasonable folks.

I did find it fascinating when the FA walked up, popped a plastic cover off of the overhead compartment and plugged in a set of headphones then said “here you go, talk to them”. Uhhh…who is them and what do they want to talk about? If it’s our lord and savior Jesus Christ I’m definitely giving this flight a poor review.

[FartingMonk 3630]

10 hours ago, Herbie Hancock said:

This was slightly more complicated than that, but nothing remotely close to warranting an emergency landing if you are anyone besides the incompetent hag nurse I had to deal with. I’m not a people person. I deal in facts and realities, and I’m fucking blunt when it comes to both. Luckily the flight crew were reasonable folks.

I did find it fascinating when the FA walked up, popped a plastic cover off of the overhead compartment and plugged in a set of headphones then said “here you go, talk to them”. Uhhh…who is them and what do they want to talk about? If it’s our lord and savior Jesus Christ I’m definitely giving this flight a poor review.

 

[NeverMarryAStripper 22346]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:02 PM, Surly Bevo said:

Here are your accidents caused by maintenance failures, including the still the champ in the US, American Airlines Flight 191 (what a cursed flight number by the way)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airliner_accidents_and_incidents_caused_by_maintenance_errors

The motto here is don’t ever fly an airline with China in its’ name

[Captainant 28629]

Pretty big news - the FAA has extended the MAX 9 grounding for an overall audit and further round of inspections

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-boost-oversight-boeing-audit-737-max-9-production-line-2024-01-12/

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-increasing-oversight-boeing-production-and-manufacturing

WASHINGTON, D.C. — After taking decisive and immediate action to ground approximately 171 Boeing 737-9 MAX planes, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) today announced new and significant actions to immediately increase its oversight of Boeing production and manufacturing. These actions come one day after the FAA formally notified Boeing that the FAA has launched an investigation into the company as a result of last Friday’s incident on a Boeing Model 737-9 MAX in which the aircraft lost a passenger door plug while in flight. 

The actions announced today include the FAA conducting:

• An audit involving the Boeing 737-9 MAX production line and its suppliers to evaluate Boeing’s compliance with its approved quality procedures. The results of the FAA’s audit analysis will determine whether additional audits are necessary.
• Increased monitoring of Boeing 737-9 MAX in-service events.
• Assessment of safety risks around delegated authority and quality oversight, and examination of options to move these functions under independent, third-party entities.

"It is time to re-examine the delegation of authority and assess any associated safety risks," FAA Administrator Mike Whitaker said. "The grounding of the 737-9 and the multiple production-related issues identified in recent years require us to look at every option to reduce risk. The FAA is exploring the use of an independent third party to oversee Boeing’s inspections and its quality system."

Yesterday, the FAA announced an investigation to determine if Boeing failed to ensure completed products conformed to its approved design and were in a condition for safe operation in compliance with FAA regulations. The letter to Boeing is available here. 

The safety of the flying public, not speed, will determine the timeline for returning the Boeing 737-9 MAX to service. 

See the FAA's statements on the grounding of certain Boeing 737-9 MAX aircraft here.

[Pato del Muerto 53633]

On 1/12/2024 at 10:36 AM, RPM said:

Instagram model/influencer

[Captainant 28629]

That letter to Boeing is pretty monumental as well - surprised it's flow under the radar. The FAA is alleging noncompliance with Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) and their FAA approved quality system

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/EIR2024NM420001_737MAX9.pdf

Quote

ALLEGED NONCOMPLIANCE: The above-described circumstances indicate that Boeing may have failed to ensure its completed products conformed to its approved design and were in a condition for safe operation in accordance with quality system inspection and test procedures.

This letter is to inform you that the FAA is investigating this matter. We would appreciate receiving any evidence or statements you might care to make concerning this matter within ten (10) business days of receipt of this letter. Any discussions or written statements will be given consideration in the final conclusion of our investigation. However, if we do not hear from you within the specified time, our report will be processed without the benefit of your statement.

Your response should contain the root cause of the encountered condition(s), products/articles affected, service impacts, the extent of any immediate/long-term action taken to correct and preclude its recurrence, and any mitigating circumstances which you believe may be relevant to this case.

 

[NeverMarryAStripper 22346]

I’m no lawyer, but that kind of seems like a big deal for an airliner manufacturer

[FartingMonk 3630]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/16/investing/boeing-stock-faa-investigation/index.html

 

Oof.  They brought in former head of NAVSEA08 to right the wrongs.  Admiral Donald is the right person to get shit right.  He is no nonsense and will tell these MBA business group people to get the fuck out of his way.

[ClubWhatever 12341]

18 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/16/investing/boeing-stock-faa-investigation/index.html

 

Oof.  They brought in former head of NAVSEA08 to right the wrongs.  Admiral Donald is the right person to get shit right.  He is no nonsense and will tell these MBA business group people to get the fuck out of his way.

That's great but you shouldn't need an ass-kicker consultant to tell you to stop the self-inspection lunacy, hire and train more quality inspectors, and not squeeze your suppliers nuts so tight that they operate on the fringes of bankruptcy all the time.   Duh.

but I get it.   It's a PR image rehab move.

[FartingMonk 3630]

14 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

That's great but you shouldn't need an ass-kicker consultant to tell you to stop the self-inspection lunacy, hire and train more quality inspectors, and not squeeze your suppliers nuts so tight that they operate on the fringes of bankruptcy all the time.   Duh.

but I get it.   It's a PR image rehab move.

Yeah, but for far too long they have listening to consultants that told them they have to cut costs to prop up stock price.  Maybe the pendulum swing will go back to being more engineering centric and tell the business group to eat a bag of dicks.  But we know what's going to happen.  It rights the ship barely and then back to business.