Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

[tucker 238]

5 minutes ago, michaelpshayes said:

 

I am waiting for it to hit $350

[EuroHorn 3204]

So what's the bottom on Boeing stock?  And when should I  buy?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, EuroHorn said:

So what's the bottom on Boeing stock?  And when should I  buy?

Once it really flames out.

Once it hits rock bottom

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

10 minutes ago, michaelpshayes said:

 

Damn, Trump calling for the grounding, something  must be up.

[Hagbard Celine 10734]

American has a dozen or so MD-80s and a shitpile of 752s sitting in Roswell.  If there were a permanent problem with the max8 (and max9?) i would not short amr.

I don't know the situation with recent LUV fleet retirements.

[EE2B 1561]

I just wanted to say fuck concur. Please continue the discussion.

This right here. I just got my fourth email that I need to do my expense report. Ain’t nobody got time for this shit.

[Sbbruin 21697]

15 minutes ago, michaelpshayes said:

grounded in the USA 

So that is binding on all airlines?  Maybe my wife isn't coming home tonight.

[EuroHorn 3204]

The Dow just dropped significantly after being up almost 200 points all day

[Pig Bellmont 8679]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Damn, Trump calling for the grounding, something  must be up.

Could be the data and firsthand accounts of pilots correcting errors at critical times in flight that has been reported within the US and globally, or nah. Probably a mystery. 

[atomheartbevo 89362]

19 minutes ago, HiggyBaby said:

That’s huge. Wonder what new data they found.

New information and physical evidence they will reveal shortly (probably Tuesday).  

Edited March 13, 2019 by atomheartbevo

[Your Mom 4789]

 I’m hearing the Ethiopian jet had a MCAS “runaway”  the day before the crash. The pilots quickly stopped it by turning off the stab trim cut out switches which is the normal basic procedure.  And they had an uneventful landing and either didn’t write it up or the write-up caused no alarm and the plane flew again the next day and crashed. 

 The same thing happened with Lion Air.  They also had a runaway the day before the crash that was stopped by following the procedure. 

[Updawg 2260]

So that is binding on all airlines?  Maybe my wife isn't coming home tonight.

If she is in the air on a direct flight. If not she will be stuck where it lands.
This seems like it's gonna be a cluster for the next couple of days. Especially Southwest.

[Telegraph_it 3353]

3 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

 I’m hearing the Ethiopian jet had a MCAS “runaway”  the day before the crash. The pilots quickly stopped it by turning off the stab trim cut out switches which is the normal basic procedure.  And they had an uneventful landing and either didn’t write it up or the write-up caused no alarm and the plane flew again the next day and crashed. 

 The same thing happened with Lion Air.  They also had a runaway the day before the crash that was stopped by following the procedure. 

That would undoubtedly be problematic and a reason for grounding. 

[Pig Bellmont 8679]

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

Speaking of the FAA:
 

Also this article on the topic:

 

[Sbbruin 21697]

4 minutes ago, Updawg said:

If she is in the air on a direct flight. If not she will be stuck where it lands.
This seems like it's gonna be a cluster for the next couple of days. Especially Southwest.

She is scheduled to fly (SWA) tonight.  

[Your Mom 4789]

 Out of 755 SWA aircraft only 35 are MAXs. There was a similar size draw-down in 2017  when they retired the 300s before the MAXs arrived.  There will be some tweaks in the schedule and a whole lot of time and a half paid to the crews  but for the most part the schedule will go on. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Your Mom

[EuroHorn 3204]

According to Wiki, there have only been 350 737 Max world-wide deliveries to-date?  Is that correct? 

It shows that SWA only has 31 in service

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_and_deliveries

[Moby Ric 2058]

Trump just grounded all 737 max.

[Your Mom 4789]

 34 as of a few days ago but I think there’s a new one arriving every week or two.   

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

16 minutes ago, Updawg said:

If she is in the air on a direct flight. If not she will be stuck where it lands.
This seems like it's gonna be a cluster for the next couple of days. Especially Southwest.

Gotdamit. I'm flying SWA three times over the next 10 days. How fucked am I going to be? First flight is Sat.

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

12 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

 Out of 755 SWA aircraft only 35 are MAXs. There was a similar size draw-down in 2017  when they retired the 300s before the MAXs arrived.  There will be some tweaks in the schedule and a whole lot of time and a half paid to the crews  but for the most part the schedule will go on. 

Thanks mom. This sounds somewhat reassuring.

[bluto 4873]

This was pre grounding but a 'what if' and summary is no biggie after the initial kinks

https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-737-max-grounding-would-affect-us-flyers/

[miguelito 11204]

52 minutes ago, michaelpshayes said:

grounded in the USA 

I'm so sick of John Cougar Mellencamp. 

[Newy25 7638]

The FAA and STB look pretty fucking stupid right about now. But their future on the Boeing board is safe now that the MF President had to step in and do what needed to be done. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

41 minutes ago, EuroHorn said:

The Dow just dropped significantly after being up almost 200 points all day

this is the important thing.

it's the right thing to do. security can be expensive, but even doing a reasonable cost-analysis, the risk of being the last country to ground these planes and having one crash...beyond the human loss, it would be catastrophic in any number of ways. brisket was right above in that boeing fucked this up by resisting the fix after the second plane crash. now it turns out they knew this was an ongoing problem.

Quote

US pilots who fly the Boeing 737 Max have registered complaints about the way the jet has performed in flight, according to a federal database accessed by CNN.

In one of the complaints, a captain reported an autopilot anomaly which led to a brief nose-down situation -- where the front of the aircraft pointed down, according to the federal database. In another complaint, a first officer reported that the aircraft pitched nose down after the autopilot was engaged during departure. The autopilot was then disconnected and flight continued to its destination, according to the database.

Although the data doesn't identify the pilots or their airlines, two US carriers fly the 737 Max 8: American Airlines and Southwest.

this is a known issue, and if @Your Mom is right that both planes that crashed experienced the same issue that had to be saved by human intervention and procedure, i mean, that's all well and good, but if an issue like this is repeated, i mean, this isn't popping the clutch to start mrs. larusso's station wagon. this is an aviation safety issue.

they should have been ground before this if this issue was a repeated one. reminds me of this:

Edited March 13, 2019 by hayden_horn

[C-Man 26991]

32 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

 I’m hearing the Ethiopian jet had a MCAS “runaway”  the day before the crash. The pilots quickly stopped it by turning off the stab trim cut out switches which is the normal basic procedure.  And they had an uneventful landing and either didn’t write it up or the write-up caused no alarm and the plane flew again the next day and crashed. 

 The same thing happened with Lion Air.  They also had a runaway the day before the crash that was stopped by following the procedure. 

So explain this further if you don't mind. Does this mean the first pilot crews had the training/experience to over-ride the problem and the second did not -- or does that not even play into it and these planes were going to go down at some point?

[Irwin F Fletcher 3550]

United has 14 of the Max 9's. Half of our volleyball team was set to fly out on them tomorrow for a tournament. Should be some fun the next few hours to see how everyone gets rebooked.

[EuroHorn 3204]

Actually, Disney and Home Depot are taking a bigger hit on their stock today than Boeing.  Perhaps they are the suppliers of the flight control automation.

Edited March 13, 2019 by EuroHorn

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

How does one find out what the aircraft they're going to fly on/in is ?

[Moby Ric 2058]

Wife and daughter flew up to Chicago on one yesterday.  Flying home Friday but on a 767.

[Brisketexan 104464]

17 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

this is a known issue, and if @Your Mom is right that both planes that crashed experienced the same issue that had to be saved by human intervention and procedure, i mean, that's all well and good, but if an issue like this is repeated, i mean, this isn't popping the clutch to start mrs. larusso's station wagon. this is an aviation safety issue.

This.  In bold and underlined.

The fact of "sure, it's a glitch, but any pilot with decent training can override it" is NOT a satisfactory answer because as noted, this ain't popping a clutch.  I LOVE workarounds -- I use them all over the place.  When it comes to a matter of fundamental control of an aircraft carrying 150 people, 'here's a standard workaround for failure X" is not an acceptable answer.  Not even a little bit.

[retread 2951]

I wonder how common it is for a pilot to have to override automated controls? This instance is life or death, but are there other manual overrides that a pilot regularly has to perform?

[closetojumping 62131]

Sitting in the airport with wife and little kids. We were boarding when they halt happened. Waiting to hear an update on the new gate and departure time. Bleh. 

[DaysOff 7821]

United has 14 of the Max 9's. Half of our volleyball team was set to fly out on them tomorrow for a tournament. Should be some fun the next few hours to see how everyone gets rebooked.

Our 9s are basically a 900ER with a 20/159 seating configuration. There may be a few flights that require reseating or booking due to an equipment sub, but with only 14 airframes this isn't a large disruption to the operation.

Remember the 787 groundings due to battery issues? I don't remember how long, but the thing prints money now. This too shall pass. Like I said I've only touched the thing a half dozen times, but it's the smoothest flying airplane I've ever flown.

[tucker 238]

Airbus for my next couple of flights by luck.

[elfenix 34168]

 

19 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

How does one find out what the aircraft they're going to fly on/in is ?

usually printed on the itinerary, if not, look up the flight number on flight aware and see what equipment has been used on that flight the last __ days. usually flight aware is the first or second hit on google if you search for that flight number.

Edited March 13, 2019 by elfenix

[InkaUtexas 25424]

3 minutes ago, tucker said:

Airbus for my next couple of flights by luck.

Sorry, we will start the wreath fund. 

[Gil Bang 25865]

American has a dozen or so MD-80s and a shitpile of 752s sitting in Roswell.  If there were a permanent problem with the max8 (and max9?) i would not short amr.
I don't know the situation with recent LUV fleet retirements.

Need pilots to fly them.

[Hagbard Celine 10734]

Just now, Gil Bang said:

Need pilots to fly them.

The 752s or MD80s?  Pilots for both types would need 3-4 hours in the box and they would be back in the pool.  MD80s were a fairly senior line, 752s not so much.  Most of those guys are still with the company.

As far as LUV pilots, i don't know the type rating situation but would guess same thing holds if they can find some -600/-700 metal they could use guys already on the payroll.

[Your Mom 4789]

44 minutes ago, C-Man said:

So explain this further if you don't mind. Does this mean the first pilot crews had the training/experience to over-ride the problem and the second did not -- or does that not even play into it and these planes were going to go down at some point?

The trim system makes minor adjustments  so you don’t have to hold constant back pressure on the yoke in a climb or constant forward pressure in a descent. You put it where you want it and then trim it to stay there until you’re ready for a different flight attitude.    If the trim motors “Runaway”  and won’t stop they will continue to force the airplane in one direction or the other and there is a process to stop it. 1) Autpilot and Autothrottles off  2) Stab Trim Switches to Cut Out. That’s it.   That removes the connection between the trim motors and controls surface.   That’s the whole procedure. It’s one of only a few required memory items and it almost the shortest memory item in the whole manual. 

 Lion Air did not crash because of a true runaway trim.  The trim system was doing exactly what it was told to.   The angle of attack indicators were sensing a stall. So the MCAS logic told the trim motors to trim nose down.  And they did their job correctly all the way to the ground.   The actual problem was in the angle of attack indicator, not the trim motors. But in the cockpit the problem presents itself exactly like a runaway trim. You’re trying to level the plane off but the trim motors continue to push it down.  Even if it’s not a true runaway trim it would present the exact same. You run that memorized procedure and it solves the problem. 

 Even before Lion Air crashed and before anyone knew this was going to be a recurring problem any decent pilot would’ve got his hands on those switches. And actually it’s looking like simply turning the auto pilot off would have also stopped the nose down trim.   It’s basic day one stuff in fancy airplane school.   But when the first officer has 200 total hours of flight time, day one simple stuff is going to be pretty hard.  I have no idea what the training is like at Lion Air or Ethiopia  but it’s hard to imagine a professional pilot in the United States not being able to stop a runaway trim within two or three seconds.    The kind of airline that would hire a guy with less than 200 hours is probably also the kind of airline that doesn’t take its training department real seriously. That’s just speculation on my part based on current events.    

The other big question is why wasn’t this specific airplane grounded after the pilot reported a runaway trim or something like it?    That’s not something you just casually tell the mechanic before you walk over to the next gate.  I don’t know why it was handled the way it was. 

 None of that is to say that I’m crazy about this system. I don’t like it and I’ll be glad when they change it.   But in the meantime Southwest has flown 41,000 flights in the MAX  without a single instance of this and I feel like  we can handle it until they change the logic. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Your Mom

[C-Man 26991]

2 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

The trim system makes minor adjustments  so you don’t have to hold constant back pressure on the yoke in a climb or constant forward pressure in a descent. You put it where you want it and then trim it to stay there until you’re ready for a different flight attitude.    If the trim motors “Runaway”  and won’t stop they will continue to force the airplane in one direction or the other and there is a process to stop it. 1) Autpilot and Autothrottles off  2) Stab Trim Switches to Cut Out. That’s it.   That removes the connection between the trim motors and controls surface.   That’s the whole procedure. It’s one of only a few required memory items and it almost the shortest memory item in the whole manual. 

 Lion Air did not crash because of a true runaway trim.  The trim system was doing exactly what it was told to.   The angle of attack indicators were sensing a stall. So the MCAS logic told the trim motors to trim nose down.  And they did their job correctly all the way to the ground.   The actual problem was in the angle of attack indicator, not the trim motors. But in the cockpit the problem presents itself exactly like a runaway trim. You’re trying to level the plane off but the trim motors continue to push it down.  Even if it’s not a true runaway trim it would present the exact same. You run that memorized procedure and it solves the problem. 

 Even before Lion Air crashed and before anyone knew this was going to be a recurring problem any decent pilot would’ve got his hands on those switches. And actually it’s looking like simply turning the auto pilot off would have also stopped the nose down trim.   It’s basic day one stuff in fancy airplane school.   But when the first officer has 200 total hours of flight time, day one simple stuff is going to be pretty hard.  I have no idea what the training is like at Lion Air or Ethiopia  but it’s hard to imagine a professional pilot in the United States not being able to stop a runaway trim within two or three seconds.    The kind of airline that would hire a guy with less than 200 hours is probably also the kind of airline that doesn’t take his training department real seriously. That’s just speculation on my part based on current events.    The other big question is why wasn’t this specific airplane grounded after the pilot reported a runaway tram or something like it?    That’s not something you just casually tell the mechanic before you walk over to the next gate.  I don’t know why it was handled the way it was. 

 None of that is to say that I’m crazy about this system. I don’t like it and I’ll be glad when they change it.   But in the meantime Southwest has flown 41,000 flights in the MAX  without a single instance of this and I feel like  we can handle it until they change the logic. 

That's kind of my takeaway from reading through this discussion. Thanks for taking the time to spell it all out.

I think I heard the co-pilot on the Ethiopian Air flight had 200 hours flying time but the pilot was over 8,000 or some-such. I don't recall the experience of the Lion Air pilots and will defer to you on that matter.

[lemonlime 5503]

29 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This.  In bold and underlined.

The fact of "sure, it's a glitch, but any pilot with decent training can override it" is NOT a satisfactory answer because as noted, this ain't popping a clutch.  I LOVE workarounds -- I use them all over the place.  When it comes to a matter of fundamental control of an aircraft carrying 150 people, 'here's a standard workaround for failure X" is not an acceptable answer.  Not even a little bit.

Yup.  And I'm sure most pilots will override it.  But I also want the pilot who didn't get enough sleep last night, just had a death in the family and is distracted, or is the most junior pilot at the airline, or hell, pilots who have another issue going on with the plane at the same time leading to increased workload say a birdstrike and MCAS problem simultaneously, to not have to override a faulty system to avoid becoming a crater in the ground.  

[Sbbruin 21697]

3 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

The trim system makes minor adjustments  so you don’t have to hold constant back pressure on the yoke in a climb or constant forward pressure in a descent. You put it where you want it and then trim it to stay there until you’re ready for a different flight attitude.    If the trim motors “Runaway”  and won’t stop they will continue to force the airplane in one direction or the other and there is a process to stop it. 1) Autpilot and Autothrottles off  2) Stab Trim Switches to Cut Out. That’s it.   That removes the connection between the trim motors and controls surface.   That’s the whole procedure. It’s one of only a few required memory items and it almost the shortest memory item in the whole manual. 

 Lion Air did not crash because of a true runaway trim.  The trim system was doing exactly what it was told to.   The angle of attack indicators were sensing a stall. So the MCAS logic told the trim motors to trim nose down.  And they did their job correctly all the way to the ground.   The actual problem was in the angle of attack indicator, not the trim motors. But in the cockpit the problem presents itself exactly like a runaway trim. You’re trying to level the plane off but the trim motors continue to push it down.  Even if it’s not a true runaway trim it would present the exact same. You run that memorized procedure and it solves the problem. 

 Even before Lion Air crashed and before anyone knew this was going to be a recurring problem any decent pilot would’ve got his hands on those switches. And actually it’s looking like simply turning the auto pilot off would have also stopped the nose down trim.   It’s basic day one stuff in fancy airplane school.   But when the first officer has 200 total hours of flight time, day one simple stuff is going to be pretty hard.  I have no idea what the training is like at Lion Air or Ethiopia  but it’s hard to imagine a professional pilot in the United States not being able to stop a runaway trim within two or three seconds.    The kind of airline that would hire a guy with less than 200 hours is probably also the kind of airline that doesn’t take his training department real seriously. That’s just speculation on my part based on current events.    The other big question is why wasn’t this specific airplane grounded after the pilot reported a runaway tram or something like it?    That’s not something you just casually tell the mechanic before you walk over to the next gate.  I don’t know why it was handled the way it was. 

 None of that is to say that I’m crazy about this system. I don’t like it and I’ll be glad when they change it.   But in the meantime Southwest has flown 41,000 flights in the MAX  without a single instance of this and I feel like  we can handle it until they change the logic. 

Finally someone understands this shit like I do.

[Your Mom 4789]

7 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

The 752s or MD80s?  Pilots for both types would need 3-4 hours in the box and they would be back in the pool.  MD80s were a fairly senior line, 752s not so much.  Most of those guys are still with the company.

As far as LUV pilots, i don't know the type rating situation but would guess same thing holds if they can find some -600/-700 metal they could use guys already on the payroll.

All one type at LUV.  Every pilot flies every plane. The FAA made us retire the old 300s all at the same time when the first MAX started flying  because they felt like three versions of the airplane were enough for one pilot group to switch between and 4 types were too many.  700, 800, and MAX8...  same pilot group for all three. 

[lemonlime 5503]

5 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

 

 Even before Lion Air crashed and before anyone knew this was going to be a recurring problem any decent pilot would’ve got his hands on those switches. And actually it’s looking like simply turning the auto pilot off would have also stopped the nose down trim.   It’s basic day one stuff in fancy airplane school.   But when the first officer has 200 total hours of flight time, day one simple stuff is going to be pretty hard.  I have no idea what the training is like at Lion Air or Ethiopia  but it’s hard to imagine a professional pilot in the United States not being able to stop a runaway trim within two or three seconds.    The kind of airline that would hire a guy with less than 200 hours is probably also the kind of airline that doesn’t take his training department real seriously.

My understanding is that most airlines overseas, including European carriers, hire pilots with very few hours, but provide extensive flight school training, whereas in the U.S. the pilots have a lot of flight time before being hired (mostly in smaller planes), but do not receive as comprehensive training from the airline.  Is that incorrect?

[DaysOff 7821]

The 752s or MD80s?  Pilots for both types would need 3-4 hours in the box and they would be back in the pool.  MD80s were a fairly senior line, 752s not so much.  Most of those guys are still with the company.
As far as LUV pilots, i don't know the type rating situation but would guess same thing holds if they can find some -600/-700 metal they could use guys already on the payroll.

That's not how Advanced Qual Programs work. Forget the maintenance side which is what drives aircraft scheduling.

[Brisketexan 104464]

12 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

The trim system makes minor adjustments  so you don’t have to hold constant back pressure on the yoke in a climb or constant forward pressure in a descent. You put it where you want it and then trim it to stay there until you’re ready for a different flight attitude.    If the trim motors “Runaway”  and won’t stop they will continue to force the airplane in one direction or the other and there is a process to stop it. 1) Autpilot and Autothrottles off  2) Stab Trim Switches to Cut Out. That’s it.   That removes the connection between the trim motors and controls surface.   That’s the whole procedure. It’s one of only a few required memory items and it almost the shortest memory item in the whole manual. 

 Lion Air did not crash because of a true runaway trim.  The trim system was doing exactly what it was told to.   The angle of attack indicators were sensing a stall. So the MCAS logic told the trim motors to trim nose down.  And they did their job correctly all the way to the ground.   The actual problem was in the angle of attack indicator, not the trim motors. But in the cockpit the problem presents itself exactly like a runaway trim. You’re trying to level the plane off but the trim motors continue to push it down.  Even if it’s not a true runaway trim it would present the exact same. You run that memorized procedure and it solves the problem. 

 Even before Lion Air crashed and before anyone knew this was going to be a recurring problem any decent pilot would’ve got his hands on those switches. And actually it’s looking like simply turning the auto pilot off would have also stopped the nose down trim.   It’s basic day one stuff in fancy airplane school.   But when the first officer has 200 total hours of flight time, day one simple stuff is going to be pretty hard.  I have no idea what the training is like at Lion Air or Ethiopia  but it’s hard to imagine a professional pilot in the United States not being able to stop a runaway trim within two or three seconds.    The kind of airline that would hire a guy with less than 200 hours is probably also the kind of airline that doesn’t take its training department real seriously. That’s just speculation on my part based on current events.    

The other big question is why wasn’t this specific airplane grounded after the pilot reported a runaway trim or something like it?    That’s not something you just casually tell the mechanic before you walk over to the next gate.  I don’t know why it was handled the way it was. 

 None of that is to say that I’m crazy about this system. I don’t like it and I’ll be glad when they change it.   But in the meantime Southwest has flown 41,000 flights in the MAX  without a single instance of this and I feel like  we can handle it until they change the logic. 

I have no doubt that a good pilot can handle this issue.   And from what I know of the SWA pilots, they all fit that bill.

But the point remains -- a plane shouldn't have a built-in, KNOWN failure mechanism that requires good piloting to overcome.  I know that you CAN overcome it.  But you shouldn't be forced to.  Because every so often, for whatever reason, a flight crew won't have the wherewithal in the moment to overcome the failure.  And they'll fly straight into the ground. 

Again, having a known failure mechanism is bad.  Really bad.  Like, pretty much all the time.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, closetojumping said:

Sitting in the airport with wife and little kids. We were boarding when they halt happened. Waiting to hear an update on the new gate and departure time. Bleh. 

Dude, that sucks. It’s going to fuck people going on spring break trips. Safe travels and hope delay is not too bad 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I have no doubt that a good pilot can handle this issue.   And from what I know of the SWA pilots, they all fit that bill.

But the point remains -- a plane shouldn't have a built-in, KNOWN failure mechanism that requires good piloting to overcome.  I know that you CAN overcome it.  But you shouldn't be forced to.  Because every so often, for whatever reason, a flight crew won't have the wherewithal in the moment to overcome the failure.  And they'll fly straight into the ground. 

Again, having a known failure mechanism is bad.  Really bad.  Like, pretty much all the time.

Uh, well, I hate to break it to you, but about half the memorized emergency procedures were developed because of accidents that have happened and could happen again.  There’s an old saying that our procedures and rules are written in blood. 

Since both aircraft were written up and had crews successfully deal with the situation I have to wonder if the maintenance folks wrote up a basic “cannot reproduce” and returned the plane to the line only for less adept crewmembers to be unable to deal with the situation.  

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[Brisketexan 104464]

5 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Uh, well, I hate to break it to you, but about half the memorized emergency procedures were developed because of accidents that have happened and could happen again.  There’s an old saying that our procedures and rules are written in blood. 

Since both aircraft were written up and had crews successfully deal with the situation I have to wonder if the maintenance folk wrote up a complete “cannot reproduce” and returned the plane to the line only for less adept crewmembers to be unable to deal with the situation.  

And I was discussing this with GOLL -- I should have completed my thought.  A known and FIXABLE failure mechanism.  Of course there are a jillion emergency procedures for mishaps that we know can happen (so, we prepare and train for a fix for those).

For example, a good driver should have some idea how to drive when a tire blows out.  No matter what steps you take, a blowout is always a possibility.

We don't take cars off the road because blowouts happen.

But it's counter-intuitive for drivers to train for how to handle things if the steering automatically lurches to the left, without touching the wheel.  I'm sure we can come up with some emergency procedures that can prevent a crash in most cases.  But the problem here is the steering automatically lurching to the left.  Without some outside influence, it really, really, really shouldn't do that.  And if we had a model of car where the steering would occasionally lurch to the left, we'd recall the hell out of that model.  

I think your "cannot reproduce" hypothesis makes sense.  But damn.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Brisketexan