2019 MLB thread

[clapclapclap 9000]

Bang the Trashcan Slowly

[clapclapclap 9000]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

The Astros have signed Myles Garrett.

Your snark has a certain Odor to it.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

3 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

?? how is he the default winner every year? also your argument is a bullshit argument exclusively used by losers who played on better teams. the Astros are the most stacked fucking team in baseball, but yeah, let's act like the MVP award is about all those team wins that apparently only Alex Bregman was responsible for. this isn't basketball doofus, this is literally the last sport in the world where team wins should be a factor in MVP voting. no sport has more people impact the game than baseball. 

Lol doofus? Haven’t heard that one in a while. I didn’t necessarily mean it as a bad thing. He’s the best baseball player most of us have ever seen. My point was you could’ve just given him this award on opening day and nobody would’ve questioned you because he’s that good. I didn’t say I had a problem with it. 
 

lol doofus. Haha is that a word you use often?

[Goo Punch 4275]

i guess i was just feeling inspired this morning. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

[DaysOff 7977]

The Astros are quickly turning into a laughingstock. Fans on other MLB boards on reddit & team blogs are flaming the Astros fan base over their crusade against Jomboy & the fact that that Houston fans think blatant cheating is not a big deal. Of course the Astros fans are too oblivious in their echo chamber to notice. 

Don't worry. You'll still be able to watch the Astros next October along with the Yankees from your couch.

[Fozzz 152]

Rob Arthur is quickly becoming one of my favorite writers/analysts.  Really interesting read and illustrates how brazen the Astros were with this system.

[Hank Chinaski 6322]

4 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

all Astros fans should feel lousy as shit about everything they've accomplished. the same way that Cubs fans don't even talk or really even think about Sosa anymore, Astros fans should be sad and embarrassed by this. everything you won was through systemic cheating. if you're an Astros fan and you aren't completely gut-punched by this then I question where your head is at. 

By this logic...should NE Patriots fans feel lousy about the last 20 years, considering they've been known to bend the rules to gain slight advantages (even using cameras)? Should Red Sox fans feel bad because Manny and Ortiz were mainlining dianobol in 2004 and 2007? Should Alabama fans feel lousy about the last 10 years, considering it is pretty well known that they pay players (their fans don't even deny this)? 

I don't know. Maybe. But as a life-long Astros fan, I'm going to need more to feel that their recent success is tarnished. Like - how common is this (the Red Sox have literally been caught doing this, connect the dots to the Yankees too, and I'm going to guess they aren't alone)? How much difference does it actually make (it's documented that some players on the team didn't want the signalling because it was a distraction; also Astros had the exact same wRC+ total at home and on the road in 2017)? As of now, this feels overblown. The Red Sox got busted for this and it wasn't this big of a deal. 

I do wish that competition was always on the up-and-up. I enjoy sports because of the spectacular athleticism and skill of the participants. So yeah, this is disappointing; but, I'm also not so naive to assume that this kind of thing isn't happening, that guys aren't still doing 'roids, that major college programs aren't incentivized to cheat, etc. It is what it is. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Hank Chinaski

[Fozzz 152]

Luhnow seems to operate with that Bain/McKinsey type ethos where the question of whether or not you should break rules or cross some type of ethical/moral boundary is totally dependent upon whether doing so advances your primary goal of increasing short-term profitability/winning.  If it will help you win and you are either unlikely to be caught right away or the penalty for being caught is outweighed by the advantages of cheating then you cheat.  Luhnow is good at his job but I would never cheer or stan for someone like that.

[huge 3795]

4 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

everything you won was through systemic cheating. 

I would not agree with this part.  Of course you understand the arguments against that.

But I feel dirty.  Like a dirty winner.  Better than feeling nothing but crushing defeat.  But certainly not the smug satisfaction of before.

[Radical Larry 28664]

i guess i was just feeling inspired this morning.  

Should have used jabroni. It’s a cool word.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

22 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

By this logic...should NE Patriots fans feel lousy about the last 20 years, considering they've been known to bend the rules to gain slight advantages (even using cameras)? Should Red Sox fans feel bad because Manny and Ortiz were mainlining dianobol in 2004 and 2007? Should Alabama fans feel lousy about the last 10 years, considering it is pretty well known that they pay players (their fans don't even deny this)? 

I don't know. Maybe. But as a life-long Astros fan, I'm going to need more to feel that their recent success is tarnished. Like - how common is this (the Red Sox have literally been caught doing this, connect the dots to the Yankees too, and I'm going to guess they aren't alone)? How much difference does it actually make (it's documented that some players on the team didn't want the signalling because it was a distraction; also Astros had the exact same wRC+ total at home and on the road in 2017)? As of now, this feels overblown. The Red Sox got busted for this and it wasn't this big of a deal. 

I do wish that competition was always on the up-and-up. I enjoy sports because of the spectacular athleticism and skill of the participants. So yeah, this is disappointing; but, I'm also not so naive to assume that this kind of thing isn't happening, that guys aren't still doing 'roids, that major college programs aren't incentivized to cheat, etc. It is what it is. 

Huge difference. Imagine if the defensive coordinator had a live feed into the radio between the opposing team’s offensive coordinator and the other team’s qb, and he could relay that to his MLB or FS in real time. Everything from the play call to “check this read this particular way, and if it isn’t there, do this with the ball”. We’re talking about in game, up to the minute cheating. The more some of this information comes out, it really is kind of next level shit. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by youdunnf'dup

[Helobious 9467]

Over the past 3 seasons combined, no team walked more & struck out less than the Astros. Hmm.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, youdunnf'dup said:

Huge difference. Imagine if the defensive coordinator had a live feed into the radio between the opposing team’s offensive coordinator and the other teams qb. Everything from the play call to “check this read this particular way, and if it isn’t there, do this with the ball”. We’re talking about in game, up to the minute cheating. The more some of this information comes out, it really is kind of next level shit. 

This is silly.  The Astros' xwOBA for all home games in 2017 (regular season and playoffs) was .333 and .345 on the road.  Thus, they actually hit worse at home than on the road, which indicates that whatever benefit they received from cheating was probably pretty fucking small.  

[Goo Punch 4275]

23 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

By this logic...should NE Patriots fans feel lousy about the last 20 years, considering they've been known to bend the rules to gain slight advantages (even using cameras)? Should Red Sox fans feel bad because Manny and Ortiz were mainlining dianobol in 2004 and 2007? Should Alabama fans feel lousy about the last 10 years, considering it is pretty well known that they pay players (their fans don't even deny this)? 

I don't know. Maybe. But as a life-long Astros fan, I'm going to need more to feel that their recent success is tarnished. Like - how common is this (the Red Sox have literally been caught doing this, connect the dots to the Yankees too, and I'm going to guess they aren't alone)? How much difference does it actually make (it's documented that some players on the team didn't want the signalling because it was a distraction; also Astros had the exact same wRC+ total at home and on the road in 2017)? As of now, this feels overblown. The Red Sox got busted for this and it wasn't this big of a deal. 

I do wish that competition was always on the up-and-up. I enjoy sports because of the spectacular athleticism and skill of the participants. So yeah, this is disappointing; but, I'm also not so naive to assume that this kind of thing isn't happening, that guys aren't still doing 'roids, that major college programs aren't incentivized to cheat, etc. It is what it is. 

For me none of those examples are analogous to what the Astros have done- their entire team participating in cheating by using real-time video feeds and audio equipment, giving the entire lineup up-to-the-second information in what pitches are coming at them. I just watched a video of Michael Brantley being a dirty player. Michael Brantley. I mean shit, the entire roster is full of likable guys, but you've gone and made Michael Brantley dirty? That's fucking low man. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

This is silly.  The Astros' xwOBA for all home games in 2017 (regular season and playoffs) was .333 and .345 on the road.  Thus, they actually hit worse at home than on the road, which indicates that whatever benefit they received from cheating was probably pretty fucking small.  

You’re assuming they didn’t have a different system in place on the road. I’m not saying they did, but it’s like when you catch a significant other telling a full on lie, you know they’re lying, but they don’t know that you know. You start thinking about the entire relationship, and you’re wondering what else have they lied about/gotten away with that you didn’t even think about at the time. 
 

Again, I’m not saying I actually believe they did have a different type of system in place on the road, but would anyone be shocked if they did? No

[Fozzz 152]

Well if we're allowed to make unsubstantiated assumptions then i'm just gonna assume everyone else was cheating way worse than the Astros and actually the Astros are the real victims here. 

[Beau Vine 54468]

10 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

This is silly.  The Astros' xwOBA for all home games in 2017 (regular season and playoffs) was .333 and .345 on the road.  Thus, they actually hit worse at home than on the road, which indicates that whatever benefit they received from cheating was probably pretty fucking small.  

Then why the fuck wasn't one of their army of analysts able to communicate this to them? 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

18 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Over the past 3 seasons combined, no team walked more & struck out less than the Astros. Hmm.

They were in the top 5 in total strikeouts in 2016, if I’m not mistaken (correct me if I’m wrong. I’m basing that off what I was told by Astros fans). That was the big shift in their success at the plate from ‘16 to ‘17. Basically going from one of the worst teams in terms of strikeouts to being the best

Edited November 15, 2019 by youdunnf'dup

[Fozzz 152]

2 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Then why the fuck wasn't one of their army of analysts able to communicate this to them? 

It is odd.  I'm sure it must confer some type of benefit even if it's not clear from the underlying performance.  Maybe they expected that benefit to be greater than it was or maybe they just didn't a give a fuck and assumed they would never get caught.  We're talking about the GM that had to be talked out of drafting that pedo pitcher from Oregon after all.  

[Chuckie Finster 22756]

Has Carson Smith explained how his bullpen theory worked for the away games in the 2017 World Series?  Are there videos of Astros batters basically staring at the right field foul pole right before every pitch?  Because that's where the bullpen is.

[Get ln My Van 927]

Coming from a totally biased Rangers fan, I can’t wait to see the Astros WS title have a little asterisk by it.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

19 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Well if we're allowed to make unsubstantiated assumptions then i'm just gonna assume everyone else was cheating way worse than the Astros and actually the Astros are the real victims here. 

Lol I’m halfway kidding and trolling. This is a very touchy subject with every Astros fan I know, so it’s just funny to me. I was on y’alls side in regards to everyone is doing this. But now, as more and more videos and accusations come out, it’s pretty clear that you guys were a little over the top with all of this. I don’t think anyone has ever done it like y’all did. Doesn’t matter. You’ll get a slap on the wrist and you’ll get fined and lose draft picks. Ultimately, that’s probably worth it. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by youdunnf'dup

[Chuckie Finster 22756]

Just curious and not trying to imply anything, but has any hitter from another team made any public comments?  I've seen plenty of pitchers weigh in, both directly and trolling, but I can't recall a single hitter...?

[Get ln My Van 927]

It’s ok, Chuckie. The Astros‘ WS title is illegitimate and that’s upsetting to the Astros fans. Understandable.

[Pato del Muerto 52623]

Baseball can’t afford a huge controversy. MLB will minimize the size and scope of it as best they can. There will be no punishments other than maybe taking a draft pick away from Houston, as the center of it all so as to have applied more than zero disciplinary action. 
privately, teams will be told to knock it off and steal signs the old fashioned way, if they can. 
Once the memes run their course, this will be gone. 
i think astros fans should just stfu about it, take their medicine for a little while, wait for it to blow over. fan bases are good at doing that, right?

Edited November 15, 2019 by Pato del Muerto

[Hank Chinaski 6322]

38 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

This is silly.  The Astros' xwOBA for all home games in 2017 (regular season and playoffs) was .333 and .345 on the road.  Thus, they actually hit worse at home than on the road, which indicates that whatever benefit they received from cheating was probably pretty fucking small.  

Right...and again, some players apparently specifically said they didn't want the signalling. It doesn't seem that the overall effect of this really made much observable difference. 

It's a bad look for a FO that has worn a lot of bad looks. But it still seems overblown based on what is currently known. And again...the Astros are very unlikely to be the only club doing this (the Red Sox have already been busted). 

[Fozzz 152]

1 hour ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Right...and again, some players apparently specifically said they didn't want the signalling. It doesn't seem that the overall effect of this really made much observable difference. 

Yeah, it's certainly an advantage to know ahead of time the type of pitch you will be encountering.  However, for a hitter to take advantage, he has to listen for the signal and process that information in a fairly short period of time, which takes the hitter out of his normal routine in the box and may make it difficult for him to concentrate on the coming pitch.  It would not be surprising if those things detracted substantially from the benefit of that knowledge.  

[Beau Vine 54468]

12 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Yeah, it's certainly an advantage to know ahead of time the type of pitch you will be encountering.  However, for a hitter to take advantage, he has to listen for the signal and process that information in a fairly short period of time, which takes the hitter out of his normal routine in the box and may make it difficult for him to concentrate on the coming pitch.  It would not be surprising if those things detracted substantially from the benefit of that knowledge.  

Then those would be the guys mentioned who "don't want to know what's coming."  No trash can banging while they're at the plate.  Did Rob Arthur's analysis identify those guys?

[gsoda3 3283]

34 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

 It would not be surprising if those things detracted substantially from the benefit of that knowledge.  

the benefit of knowing what type of pitch was coming would significantly overshadow any "out of routine" disadvantages. 

[Beau Vine 54468]

12 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

the benefit of knowing what type of pitch was coming would significantly overshadow any "out of routine" disadvantages. 

In my experience it did.  But I'm not going to conclude that for everyone. 

So yeah, I was once on a Little League team that stole signs because none of us could hit this one kid's curve and he no-hit us.  Then we stole the catcher's signs the next game and beat him 3-2.  That kid was Skipper Johnson. 

[Helobious 9467]

2 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Right...and again, some players apparently specifically said they didn't want the signalling. It doesn't seem that the overall effect of this really made much observable difference. 

It's a bad look for a FO that has worn a lot of bad looks. But it still seems overblown based on what is currently known. And again...the Astros are very unlikely to be the only club doing this (the Red Sox have already been busted). 

 

2 hours ago, Fozzz said:

This is silly.  The Astros' xwOBA for all home games in 2017 (regular season and playoffs) was .333 and .345 on the road.  Thus, they actually hit worse at home than on the road, which indicates that whatever benefit they received from cheating was probably pretty fucking small.  

This logic ignores the fact that Astros may have hit even worse at home had they not been stealing signs.

[UpperWestside 6190]

12 hours ago, David Dennison said:

We're gonna have to take away some Yankee championships.

Take them away. You find out that this happened with them during any of their titles then they should be stripped.

Right now the first domino to fall would be Houston if the accusations are found to be true. That could open up the floodgates and I am fine with that. 

[Pato del Muerto 52623]

Just knowing the approximate speed of what’s coming would be so valuable. Still have to read location and movement but not being fooled on the velocity makes hitting so much easier. If you wanted that info, it would become part of your routine. 

[UpperWestside 6190]

7 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

this scandal is kind of crazy because it involves the entire team actively and knowingly cheating. as a Cubs fan who had to watch his childhood hero get busted using steroids, using a corked bat, pretending he forgot how to speak English, and then literally white washing himself, even I gotta say that this pretty fucking disgraceful and all Astros fans should feel lousy as shit about everything they've accomplished. the same way that Cubs fans don't even talk or really even think about Sosa anymore, Astros fans should be sad and embarrassed by this. everything you won was through systemic cheating. if you're an Astros fan and you aren't completely gut-punched by this then I question where your head is at. 

I am willing to wait and see what the investigation uncovers. The video that has been presented thus far doesn't help Houston's case. If it is found that they were doing this then you throw the book at their franchise.

It will be an extremely dark day for the sport and even the casual fan will understand how bad it is. Some may not care and still go to the games because family outings to the ballpark in the summer across the country are a fun way to spend an afternoon. I do not feel real good about everything that is going to come out about multiple franchises once the first dam breaks. Again that is assuming it does and this cheating happened in the systemic way it was described by Fiers and the three others.

[Beau Vine 54468]

4 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Just knowing the approximate speed of what’s coming would be so valuable. Still have to read location and movement but not being fooled on the velocity makes hitting so much easier.

Would be huge.  I noticed one of those videos had no-bang for fastball and slider and bangs for curve and change, which is consistent with that. 

Because I'm apparently in name-dropping mode today... a couple of years ago, I sent Goldschmidt an article from an economics journal that used game theory to model how batters should predict curves and fastballs based on count.  He was completely uninterested in it because "95% of the hitters in this league look fastball 95% of the time and adjust off that." 

[Pato del Muerto 52623]

You almost have to unless a guy has nothing on his fb. If you look fb and get something slower, you have a chance. If you look for something slow and get a fb it’s by you before you have a chance to do anything. 

but say a guy throws a pitch right at your chin. It’s probably useful to know beforehand if it’s a fastball that’s going to hit you in the chin or a curveball that’s going to drop in for a strike while you are bailing out. One whack of a trash can can tell you fb or no fb. 
 

that said, if a team knew or suspected this, I’d think one cross up is all it would take for a hitter or the whole team to lose faith in the system. 
something like the catcher saying whatever I call, if I touch the ground with my glove it’s an inside fastball. 

[Chuckie Finster 22756]

[David Dennison 18951]

2 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Take them away. You find out that this happened with them during any of their titles then they should be stripped.

Right now the first domino to fall would be Houston if the accusations are found to be true. That could open up the floodgates and I am fine with that. 

So any team that Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, or Alex Rodriquez played for that won a championship should have that championship stripped.

Cool.

[Guadaloopy 11023]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

 

[Jshep34 2321]

So any team that Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, or Alex Rodriquez played for that won a championship should have that championship stripped.
Cool.

Manny Ramirez and david ortiz also.

[Pato del Muerto 52623]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

So any team that Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, or Alex Rodriquez played for that won a championship should have that championship stripped.

Cool.

 

18 minutes ago, Jshep34 said:

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

So any team that Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, or Alex Rodriquez played for that won a championship should have that championship stripped.
Cool.

Manny Ramirez and david ortiz also.

If those were team activities then yes

[Fudge Nuggets 19228]

On 11/14/2019 at 1:07 AM, David Dennison said:

Mike Fiers is a narc. 

Snitches get stitches. This is a time I wish the DH didn’t exist. 

[Constant 6755]

Astros looking into signing Danny Almonte. Apparently he’s a young star in the Dominican Republic. 

[spystud13 2371]

This may be MLB’s best offseason move. 

Quote

Major League Baseball is working to implement another change to the rules governing injured list placements, per Jon Heyman of MLB Network. Teams will now operate under separate rules for hitters and pitchers.

Hitters will continue to have a ten-day minimum injury-list placement. That’s a continuation of the change made in 2016, which dropped the number of days from the preexisting fifteen.

Pitchers, however, will go back to the prior 15-day placement if the rule is finalized. That will raise the bar for placing hurlers on the IL but help to tamp down some of the rather obvious abuses of the system that had cropped up.

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

3 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

 

 

In 22 innings over the past 2 years the Brewers scored 2 runs against Darvish.  Strange insult, coming from Yelich.  Disappointing.

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

and somehow i've lost my ability to embed tweets again.

 

good lord.

 

anyway, Darvish didn't say they were stealing signs.link.

Edited November 16, 2019 by MC Fresh Breath

[David Dennison 18951]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

If those were team activities then yes

I'm pretty sure pitching and hitting qualifies.

[UpperWestside 6190]

7 hours ago, David Dennison said:

So any team that Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, or Alex Rodriquez played for that won a championship should have that championship stripped.

Cool.

This was the worst gotcha attempt I have read on this site. That was amateur hour right there. You might as well have been posting as Icono. 

[David Dennison 18951]

7 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This was the worst gotcha attempt I have read on this site. That was amateur hour right there. You might as well have been posting as Icono. 

So you aren't really concerned about the integrity of the game when it comes to a team you like.

Cool.

[Fozzz 152]

18 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Then those would be the guys mentioned who "don't want to know what's coming."  No trash can banging while they're at the plate.  Did Rob Arthur's analysis identify those guys?

No, he doesn't get into that.  He does say it's unclear if the Astros were sign stealing in the playoffs.

Quote

But even though the trash can sound appears obvious in the clip above, the banging seems to come and go in that game and in other postseason contests. Unlike the regular season, where the code was as simple as “noise = breaking ball”, the same sound doesn’t seem to always foretell an offspeed pitch. 

Does that mean they really did cast aside their sign stealing in a fit of good sportsmanship? There are reports the Astros switched to a different kind of signaling in the World Series, using either a visual cue (someone in the bullpen raising their arms) or a different sound (perhaps whistling). It seems likely that any one of these communication pathways would have had some problems: whistling could have been lost in the roar of the crowd, but trash can smacking and hand signals from the outfield could have been dangerously obvious. One way to overcome these issues would be if the Astros adopted a hybrid system in October, using several different methods to convey signals. Perhaps they realized that the trash can was overly bold when Farquhar managed to notice their cheating within a few pitches.

Or maybe they really did abandon their cheating when it counted most, as they claim. It would seem out of character for an organization willing to break the rules in late September, long after they had effectively wrapped up a playoff berth, to then do the honorable thing and retire the system that helped get them there. And that’s not to mention the potentially severe handicap that could incur on hitters who had gotten used to knowing what pitch was coming. Considering the Houston organization’s other adventures in immorality, it’s hard to believe that they’d forgo a clear advantage when the stakes were highest.