2019 MLB thread

[Fozzz 152]

18 hours ago, Helobious said:

 

This logic ignores the fact that Astros may have hit even worse at home had they not been stealing signs.

There is no reason to expect an even larger split when MMP has fairly neutral park factors.  Also, the home-road xwOBA split in 2016 for the Astros is similar to 2017.  I think the most you could plausibly argue is that the Astros got like a .002-0.003 bump in wOBA for the season from their cheating - the same gap separating the 18th and 19th teams that season in wOBA.  

[htown85 159]

If MLB actually tried to vacate the WS win for the Astros that would not only be egregious, but it would crush baseball fandom in Houston. Death penalties are not good for growing the game. I expect a fine and some suspensions, maybe even a loss of draft pick, which won’t be enough for the Twitter mob but seems reasonable in the overall landscape. 
 

Certainly there is a reporter who hates another team as much as Drellich hates the Astros, right?  If I am Jim Crane I would commission that reporter to go do his own digging in an effort to justify the notion that the whole league is doing this.

[Hank Chinaski 6,315]

2 minutes ago, htown85 said:

If MLB actually tried to vacate the WS win for the Astros that would not only be egregious, but it would crush baseball fandom in Houston. Death penalties are not good for growing the game. I expect a fine and some suspensions, maybe even a loss of draft pick, which won’t be enough for the Twitter mob but seems reasonable in the overall landscape. 
 

Certainly there is a reporter who hates another team as much as Drellich hates the Astros, right?  If I am Jim Crane I would commission that reporter to go do his own digging in an effort to justify the notion that the whole league is doing this.

MLB isn't vacating anything. Draft picks and a fine.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Hank Chinaski

[David Dennison 18,860]

1 hour ago, Hank Chinaski said:

MLB isn't vacating anything. Draft picks and a fine.

Heads will explode.

[Jive Turkey 12,598]

Game Day in Waco today. 
 

 

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

 

 

[Beau Vine 54,230]

51 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

 

 

Quote

An Astros front-office executive wrote about the team’s desire to steal signs in an August 2017 email that was obtained by The Athletic. As the club discussed its advance scouting plans ahead of the playoffs, the executive asked the team’s scouts to pursue sign stealing from the stands, and suggested cameras could be used to do so.

“One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout,” the email’s sender wrote in a message from August of 2017. “What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or can’t) do and report back your findings.”

The email was sent to multiple people and provided to The Athletic on the condition that both its sender and recipients remain unnamed.

Major League Baseball declined to comment on the legality of scouts using cameras, which would require a public interpretation of a broadly written rule from 2017 that is applicable to an ongoing investigation. The rule prohibited electronic equipment from being used “for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage.”

The Astros declined to comment.

The email at least reflects the mindset of the team’s front office in 2017, when another sign-stealing effort was already underway.  Last week, The Athletic published a story detailing a scheme the Astros used involving a center-field camera at Minute Maid Park that was fixed on the catcher signs.

Scouts discussed sign stealing with the executive outside of email as well, on phone calls and in a group Slack channel. Multiple Astros scouts said they were appalled by the possibility they would be asked to use a camera — and said that some scouts indeed voiced as much to management. Another scout noted a generally confounded feeling amongst the group by the overall request.

“Nobody wanted to do that, and take a chance of getting caught and ruining their reputation, not only as a scout but then even further damage what the Astros had going,” one person directly involved in the conversations said.

What Astros’ management did with any information learned through the project, or how they intended it to evolve, is unclear.

“It just goes to the story, for 2017, we were asked to electronically cheat in the playoffs,” one scout said of the long-term intent as he perceived it.

MLB rules made it permissible then and today for scouts to steal signs in the stands — so long as the signs are not being communicated during that same game, and so long as those signs are stolen with one’s own eyes or binoculars, a source familiar with the rules said.

The potential use of the camera, however, could have been a rule violation in 2017.

The rule is written broadly. But that does not mean commissioner Rob Manfred would necessarily interpret its application the same across usages. For instance, were the Astros intending to review the footage only after the game — and not use the footage during the game to signal signs in realtime — it’s possible Manfred would see a gray area in the rule as written then. Or, he could see a blanket clause rendering the use of the camera illegal. The rules have been updated since that year.

A longtime scout outside of the Astros organization said that, across the sport, asking advance scouts to attempt to track signs is not uncommon. A general manager confirmed the same. But the potential use of a camera stood out to both.

“That’s (b.s.),” the scout outside the organization said. “When you start bringing in help, that’s when it crosses the line and is unacceptable. … Other guys would call them out. If you’re sitting there with a camera trying to steal signs and somebody saw it, you get ratted out quickly.”

Said another scout unaffiliated with the Astros: “There’s a gray area. But I think cameras are past the line. It’s cheating, basically. I don’t know if it’s ‘cheating-cheating.’ But it’s over the line.”

During the 2018 playoffs, the Indians and Red Sox separately discovered a person connected to the Astros named Kyle McLaughlin taking pictures near the dugout. MLB investigated and said it found no wrongdoing.

The Astros’ front office will be looked at closely as MLB investigates the center-field camera system the team used to steal pitchers’ signs during the 2017 season.

“Obviously, following the rules is crucial to the competition on the field; any time there’s this sort of allegation, we take it very seriously,” commissioner Rob Manfred told Yahoo Finance at the Paley International Council Summit on Thursday. “We’re in the midst of gathering the facts. We want to make sure we understand everything that went on, who was involved, how far up in the organization it went. And at that point in time, we’ll make a decision as to what, if any, discipline is appropriate.”

When a team was last publicly disciplined for a sign-stealing effort, in 2017, Manfred’s statement explaining punishment for the Red Sox began by pointing out the violation “occurred without the knowledge of ownership or front office personnel.”

It must suck for the Astros fans to have a writer who is "out to get them" (because Crane tried to get him fired from the Chron) that keeps getting the goods to make them look bad.  

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Beau Vine

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

17 hours ago, Jive Turkey said:

Game Day in Waco today. 
 

 

Baylor covered up rape.  Self awareness is low in Waco.

[David Dennison 18,860]

20 hours ago, Jive Turkey said:

Game Day in Waco today. 
 

 

That's funny.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

2 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Baylor covered up rape.  Self awareness is low in Waco.

The thing is, one program is probably going to get a pretty severe punishment, and the other got a slap on the wrist (if you even want to call it that). The NCAA, man. 

[Helobious 9,454]

Very rough sports fall for me. Yankees bounced from the playoffs by a bunch of cheaters, Texas is having a disappointing year, my alma mater Harlingen HS got bounced from the playoffs by a transfer factory. It's clear I need to find teams with lower moral fiber to cheer for. 

[David Dennison 18,860]

20 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Very rough sports fall for me. Yankees bounced from the playoffs by a bunch of cheaters, Texas is having a disappointing year, my alma mater Harlingen HS got bounced from the playoffs by a transfer factory. It's clear I need to find teams with lower moral fiber to cheer for. 

You are a Yankees fan. Save the righteous indignation about cheating.

[Helobious 9,454]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You are a Yankees fan. Save the righteous indignation about cheating.

Sorry you hate capitalism. Paying the best players is not cheating.

[David Dennison 18,860]

Just now, Helobious said:

Sorry you hate capitalism. Paying the best players is not cheating.

Paying known PED users kind of is.

[Beau Vine 54,230]

 

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

I don’t know if anyone else is following the Jomboy videos, but his new life mission is to take down the Astros lol. He’s a likable guy, and I’m sure plenty of Astros fans used to like him. But I bet he’s spent every hour of every day for the last week watching every minute of the 2017 Astros season lol. It’s kinda sad, but he thinks he’s doing gods work. MLB doesn’t even need to do an investigation. Just hit him up 

[Beau Vine 54,230]

Quote

No Sawamura winner named for 2019 season

BY JASON COSKREY

STAFF WRITER

 

• OCT 21, 2019
  ARTICLE HISTORY
• PRINT
• SHARE
•  

 

The Sawamura Award is an honor given to the top pitcher in Japanese baseball each season.

Well, except when it isn’t.

 

 

 

For the first time since 2000, and the fifth time since the award was established in 1947, no pitcher was deemed worthy of the honor this season.

“This year, we had an unusually long debate and everyone was able to respectfully give their opinion,” said former pitcher Tsuneo Horiuchi, who served as chairman of the five-man committee of retired pitchers who voted on the honor this year. “After talking about various things, we decided there was no winner.”

Former pitchers Masaji Hiramatsu, Manabu Kitabeppu, Choji Murata and Hisashi Yamada also served on the committee, which was unchanged from last year.

“Of course there were names that came up. The strongest were (Shun) Yamaguchi and (Kohei) Arihara-kun,” Horiuchi said, referring to the pitchers of the Yomiuri Giants and Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters.

“We did our best to compare the two of them. But as the Sawamura selection committee, we also looked at their stability and if they had more than 15 wins and stood out in things such as innings pitched and complete games.

“We want as many players as possible to earn the experience of winning the Sawamura Award when they put up the numbers. But it’s still insufficient, and we don’t want the level of the Sawamura Award to drop. So the five of us came up with this decision.”

Yamaguchi was 15-4 with a 2.91 ERA and 188 strikeouts in 170 innings over 26 starts. He finished tied with Arihara for the most wins in NPB, led Japan with a .789 winning percentage and led the Central League with 188 strikeouts.

Arihara made 24 starts for the Fighters, going 15-8 with a 2.46 ERA and 161 strikeouts in 164⅓ innings. He led Japan’s qualified pitchers with a 0.92 walks plus hits per inning pitched.

They each cleared four of the seven benchmarks — 25 games started, 10 complete games, 15 wins, .600 winning percentage, 200 innings pitched, 150 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.50 or lower — used to evaluate candidates for the award.

Shota Imanaga, of the Yokohama BayStars, Fukuoka SoftBank Hawks ace Kodai Senga and the Orix Buffaloes’ Taisuke Yamaoka each satisfied three of the criteria.

No one, however, met the committee’s lofty standard.

“As a member of the committee, I would like everyone to remember once again the Sawamura Award has helped build the history of NPB and supported NPB’s great pitchers,” Murata said. “So my decision was nobody wins.

“Masaichi Kaneda, who died on Oct. 6, he was on another level. He had 20 or more wins for 14 straight years. He earned faith because he started, relieved and completed games. I want the media to understand the greatness of the Sawamura Award led to this decision.”

Kaneda was 86 when he passed away and pitched from 1950-1969.

The committee largely pinned their decision on the current state of pitcher usage in the Japanese game, noting few surpass 200 innings or throw more than a handful of complete games.

The Hiroshima Carp’s Daichi Osera (11-9, 3.53 ERA) led NPB with six complete games, while Senga (13-8, 2.79) was the innings leader with 180⅓.

“One player we wanted to win this award was Osera,” Horiuchi said. “He had six complete games. He was really good midway through the first half of the season, but slowed down later. His six complete games is a big number.

“Also Imanaga was mentioned. Of course, Senga, but he can do better.”

Like his fellow committee members, Yamada also expressed concern over changes in how pitchers are being used in recent years, noting the increased use of setup men and other relievers.

“The tendency to think that 100 pitches are enough is emphasized too much,” Yamada said. “That leads to the situation where the numbers are insufficient to win an award like Sawamura Award.

“I expect a pitcher who throws many innings and makes everyone feel like he can go the distance to come up, maybe one per team. Having that type pitcher is good for baseball. I keep thinking of the Sawamura Award from that point of view.”

 

[DaysOff 7,951]

Sorry you hate capitalism. Paying the best players is not cheating.

No, but the Astros learned to allegedly bang on trash cans from Carlos Beltran who spent the previous decade in New York.

[Helobious 9,454]

1 hour ago, DaysOff said:

No, but the Astros learned to allegedly bang on trash cans from Carlos Beltran who spent the previous decade in New York.

Tell me more about this decade Beltrán spent playing for the Yankees. Unless you mean the Mets, but I doubt you know he ever played for them.

[66BUFF 2,562]

On 11/17/2019 at 1:39 PM, Helobious said:

Sorry you hate capitalism. Paying the best players is not cheating.

Go read the book The Kansas City A's and the wrong half of the Yankees:  How the Yankees controlled 2 of the 8 American League franchises during the 1950's.

 

I have been a Yankees fan since 1971 and can admit that they have a history of cheating. 

[David Dennison 18,860]

Just now, 66BUFF said:

Go read the book The Kansas City A's and the wrong half of the Yankees:  How the Yankees controlled 2 of the 8 American League franchises during the 1950's.

 

I have been a Yankees fan since 1971 and can admit that they have a history of cheating. 

Ya think?

 

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

 

astros are about to get scapegoated. I have a feeling the punishment could be more than we’re leading on. I don’t know what that means necessarily, but I have a feeling manfred is about to make an example out of the Astros.

[spystud13 2,371]

Bet he’s real fucking popular in the clink. 

Quote

Pittsburgh Pirates pitcher Felipe Vazquez has been denied bail and is facing 21 felony counts from his alleged sexual assault of a minor.

The bail decision and announcement of additional charges were made at a Tuesday hearing in a Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania, courtroom.

The new charges consist of 10 counts of unlawful sexual contact with a minor, 10 counts of child pornography and one count of corruption of a minor.

Vazquez pleaded not guilty to the charges and his new attorney, Robert Wheelock, said he plans to defend Vazquez on the merits of the case, despite all the evidence presented against him.

Wheelock gave an indication while cross-examining a state trooper that he may present evidence that the alleged victim lied about her age and may have shown Vazquez a fake ID. Wheelock declined to elaborate or comment after the hearing.

Vazquez did not speak during the hearing. His only reaction after bail was denied was to audibly sigh.

Vazquez, who was arrested in September, faces multiple felonies in both Pennsylvania and Florida. He had previously been charged with three felonies in Pennsylvania -- statutory sexual assault of a minor 11 years or older; unlawful contact with a minor; and corruption of minors -- as well as one misdemeanor, indecent assault of a person less than 16 years old.

Vazquez, 28, admitted to police in September that he tried to have sex with a then-13-year-old girl in 2017, according to a criminal complaint released by Pennsylvania State Police at the time. The state trooper who interviewed Vazquez in September said in the Tuesday hearing that Vazquez told him he had intercourse with the girl. Police said Vazquez met the girl while he was in the bullpen at PNC Park in Pittsburgh.

Vazquez told police he communicated with the girl through text messages and social media and sent her nude photographs and videos of himself committing sexual acts, according to the complaint. Vazquez "claimed initially that he refused to communicate with her due to her age," saying the girl appeared to be 16 or younger, according to the complaint.

The girl, now 16, told police Vazquez drove to her residence in Scottdale Borough, Pennsylvania, about an hour outside of Pittsburgh, in August 2017. When Vazquez, then 26, arrived, the girl got into his car. She told police Vazquez placed her on his lap, removed her pants and tried to have sex with her. Vazquez then told the girl he had to leave because he had a game that night.

In Florida, Vazquez faces charges of soliciting a child for unlawful sexual conduct using computer services or devices and giving obscene material to a minor, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

Vazquez and the girl maintained contact via text messaging when she moved to Fort Myers, Florida, according to the FDLE. The girl's mother found photographs allegedly sent from Vazquez on her daughter's device and sent a message to Vazquez informing him the girl was a minor. The mother also called police, spurring the investigation.

Florida law enforcement officials sought to extradite Vazquez but were denied in a separate Westmoreland County hearing Tuesday.

 

[UpperWestside 6,165]

6 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

 

astros are about to get scapegoated. I have a feeling the punishment could be more than we’re leading on. I don’t know what that means necessarily, but I have a feeling manfred is about to make an example out of the Astros.

That quote is leaving on the table the ability to strip them of post-season victories. That is all that was about. Whether he follows through on that if the investigation leads them to that punishment is another story. 

[Beau Vine 54,230]

30 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

That quote is leaving on the table the ability to strip them of post-season victories.

Is there any other pro league that has done something like this?  Because I can only remember the NCAA doing this, and it's stupid when they do it and I don't know why a league would want to mimic the NCAA at this point.  

[Helobious 9,454]

I hope they strip Altuve of his 2017 MVP. Of course he outhit Judge, he knew what pitch was coming most of the time. 
 

Im starting to wonder if my initial “opposite field bloop hitter” scouting report that I got flamed for on TOS was actually an accurate take on Altuve’s true hitting ability. Look who gets the last laugh.

[David Dennison 18,860]

27 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I hope they strip Altuve of his 2017 MVP. Of course he outhit Judge, he knew what pitch was coming most of the time. 
 

Im starting to wonder if my initial “opposite field bloop hitter” scouting report that I got flamed for on TOS was actually an accurate take on Altuve’s true hitting ability. Look who gets the last laugh.

You're going to be disappointed.

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

Rosenthal is realizing that the Astros are gonna get scapegoated. No surprise Drellich didn’t co-sign this one.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

I doubt anything would get stripped, but it wouldn’t shock me at all if everyone from Luhnow to Hinch got fired and/or banned. I doubt it’s just draft picks and a fine at this point. This is turning into a huge story, and the biggest fan bases feel like they got fucked. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by youdunnf'dup

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 hour ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I doubt anything would get stripped, but it wouldn’t shock me at all if everyone from Luhnow to Hinch got fired and/or banned. I doubt it’s just draft picks and a fine at this point. This is turning into a huge story, and the biggest fan bases feel like they got fucked. 

No title is ever getting stripped.  That's foolishness even in the NCAA.  If something happened, it happened.  Its over.  Also neither Luhnow or Hinch are getting fired.  Although Hinch maybe should be fired for other reasons.  He isn't a very good game manager.  The problem for fan bases, even the biggest ones, is that they are just fan bases.  As we have seen when owners of other leagues get together to discuss penalties knowing their own teams do the same shit, the penalty for this is one million dollars, a four game suspension (for Hinch in this case, I guess), and the loss of 2 draft picks.

You do realize that Charlie Morton just finished 3rd in Cy Young voting right?  You think his time on the Astros had nothing to do with that? Or Cole becoming a superstar?  No team wants Luhnow banned.  Nearly every team would hire him with a salary bump right now in the midst of this.  Or maybe the Astros not only stole signs, but also erased other teams' ability to hit as well, even when they sent a pitcher to Tampa.

And the Astros have sucked at home in the playoffs.  Not sure what the biggest fanbases have to complain about there.  Nobody was banging a drum for the Astros in the Nats park or in Yankee Stadium.  The Astros made the playoffs on the back of the Rangers and the AL west coast (middling fan bases).  If they cheated anyone, its those middling fanbases, but realistically, the Astros would have won the division anyway, just by a smaller margin, if everyone in the AL west was squeaky clean.

Edited November 20, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

I’m just saying, the way manfred is talking about this, I bet it’s more than just fines and loss of draft picks. A lot more. He’s talking about this like it’s as big a cheating scandal that the sport has ever seen.
 

And you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think NYY, LAD, and BOS fan bases run this league. More eyes are on those games than any other teams, and they’re easily the biggest fan bases (along with the cubs and Cards). If those fan bases feel like they got cheated and there is sufficient evidence to prove it, there’s going to be a lot of pressure on Manfred to over shoot on a punishment as opposed to giving them a slap on the wrist. 

I’m not saying that’s fair, or foul, but they got caught. It’s just like anything else. People get away with crimes all the time, but when you get caught, and more and more evidence keeps mounting, you’re going to get a pretty harsh punishment. ESPECIALLY when the hope is, this is only an Astros problem. It would take a ton of resources to do a league wide investigation on this. It would be easy to just scapegoat one team, really lay down the hammer, and hopefully scare any other team from continuing to do it if there are actually other teams doing it. Those teams (if they exist) don’t have the evidence staring Manfred right in the face. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by youdunnf'dup

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

25 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I’m just saying, the way manfred is talking about this, I bet it’s more than just fines and loss of draft picks. A lot more. He’s talking about this like it’s as big a cheating scandal that the sport has ever seen.
 

And you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think NYY, LAD, and BOS fan bases run this league. More eyes are on those games than any other teams, and they’re easily the biggest fan bases (along with the cubs and Cards). If those fan bases feel like they got cheated and there is sufficient evidence to prove it, there’s going to be a lot of pressure on Manfred to over shoot on a punishment as opposed to giving them a slap on the wrist. 

I’m not saying that’s fair, or foul, but they got caught. It’s just like anything else. People get away with crimes all the time, but when you get caught, and more and more evidence keeps mounting, you’re going to get a pretty harsh punishment. ESPECIALLY when the hope is, this is only an Astros problem. It would take a ton of resources to do a league wide investigation on this. It would be easy to just scapegoat one team, really lay down the hammer, and hopefully scare any other team from continuing to do it if there are actually other teams doing it. Those teams (if they exist) don’t have the evidence staring Manfred right in the face. 

But other teams have already been caught, and everyone that did it is going to get caught.  Fiers is the first tattletale but not the only one.  Then what? 

And I get that the Yankees own the league.  I'm simply saying their fanbase doesn't matter in this decision.  The Yankees owner is the decision maker, and he probably has 10 votes for every other franchise owner's one.  The Yankees love to play above the rules.  Their fans like to win.  Steinbrenner Jr isn't going against the Astros on this.  He's going to spend more and run the same system.

As far as the media being Yankee fans, that was already evident.  Chapman choked and actually fired a gun in the direction of his girlfriend, with witnesses who were threatened by his gun as well, and the Yankees acquired him with zero backlash at all.  Osuna did less than that and the Astros continue to hear about his acquisition over a year later.  There are multiple sets of rules.  However, I'm a zero tolerance guy when it comes to domestic violence.  Both of those guys should be banned from the league and have their entire fortunes donated to non-profits that support domestic violence victims.

Edited November 20, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[Girdwood 118]

On 11/14/2019 at 6:10 PM, Beau Vine said:

 

Haha I went to high school with this fuck. What a pussy.

[DaysOff 7,951]

I hope they strip Altuve of his 2017 MVP. Of course he outhit Judge, he knew what pitch was coming most of the time. 
 
Im starting to wonder if my initial “opposite field bloop hitter” scouting report that I got flamed for on TOS was actually an accurate take on Altuve’s true hitting ability. Look who gets the last laugh.

Give it up pussy. Altuve is the one guy we know for sure didn't participate because he swings at every fucking pitch regardless of location. Most frustrating best hitter to watch.

[Beau Vine 54,230]

6 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

As far as the media being Yankee fans, that was already evident.  Chapman choked and actually fired a gun in the direction of his girlfriend, with witnesses who were threatened by his gun as well, and the Yankees acquired him with zero backlash at all.  Osuna did less than that and the Astros continue to hear about his acquisition over a year later.  There are multiple sets of rules. 

I agree with most of what you said but not this.  Rules:

1.  Don't trade for the guy before his suspension is even over. 

2.  Don't tapdance around a "zero tolerance policy" after you've acquired him.

3.  Don't tell the media that your clubhouse is OK with the trade when you clearly didn't OK it with your clubhouse, while bragging about "unprecedented due diligence."

[Fozzz 152]

More evidence that unless the Astros somehow were doing the same thing on the road in 2017, the effect was small enough to be basically imperceptible when digging into the stats.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-much-did-the-astros-really-benefit-from-sign-stealing/

 

[Beau Vine 54,230]

21 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

More evidence that unless the Astros somehow were doing the same thing on the road in 2017, the effect was small enough to be basically imperceptible when digging into the stats.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-much-did-the-astros-really-benefit-from-sign-stealing/

 

Which is going to mean absolutely zero to Manfred when he's deciding on the punishment to levy.

[Fozzz 152]

I agree, from his recent comments, it appears Manfred is going with the NCAA approach of hammering one team while avoiding the larger issue of rampant cheating within the league.  At this point I think it's likely the Astros will lose multiple draft picks and there may even be some suspensions.

[Beau Vine 54,230]

11 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

I agree, from his recent comments, it appears Manfred is going with the NCAA approach of hammering one team while avoiding the larger issue of rampant cheating within the league.  At this point I think it's likely the Astros will lose multiple draft picks and there may even be some suspensions.

Well, my point is that the rule is "Don't use video to cheat."  It's not "Don't use video to cheat unless you don't benefit too much."  The fact that they didn't get much benefit from cheating is zero concern to Manfred.  It is another thing that makes the Astros look stupid in the whole situation.  When Manfred came down on the Cardinals for using Luhnow's password, he made no attempt to figure out how much that act benefited the Cardinals, nor should he have.  And he won't here, either.

[Beau Vine 54,230]

44 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

More evidence that unless the Astros somehow were doing the same thing on the road in 2017, the effect was small enough to be basically imperceptible when digging into the stats.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-much-did-the-astros-really-benefit-from-sign-stealing/

 

This article does nothing but make me wonder how an organization full of bros with econ and finance degrees from top schools fucked up the risk-reward assessment of this operation so badly.

[David Dennison 18,860]

8 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

This article does nothing but make me wonder how an organization full of bros with econ and finance degrees from top schools fucked up the risk-reward assessment of this operation so badly.

You sure about that?

[Beau Vine 54,230]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

You sure about that?

Do you have a point you'd like to make?

[David Dennison 18,860]

1 minute ago, Beau Vine said:

Do you have a point you'd like to make?

Are you sure the risk outweighs the reward in this case?

[Beau Vine 54,230]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are you sure the risk outweighs the reward in this case?

If I'm reading that article with the context that "these results they are presenting are accurate," then yes.

[David Dennison 18,860]

1 minute ago, Beau Vine said:

If I'm reading that article with the context that "these results they are presenting are accurate," then yes.

What do you think winning that championship has been worth to the Astros organization?

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

I've seen the word "scapegoat" pretty badly misused on this page,  imo.

 

[Beau Vine 54,230]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

What do you think winning that championship has been worth to the Astros organization?

A lot.  Is there any indication in that article that cheating helped win that championship?

[UpperWestside 6,165]

12 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Is there any other pro league that has done something like this?  Because I can only remember the NCAA doing this, and it's stupid when they do it and I don't know why a league would want to mimic the NCAA at this point.  

Honestly I cannot think of an instance where it happened in North American pro sports. The size and scope of this is unprecedented, at least in recent memory, and it's a shame to see this. It doesn't matter the team, it just tarnishes the sport and that's not good obviously.

[Pato del Muerto 52,499]

On 11/15/2019 at 10:33 AM, Pato del Muerto said:

Baseball can’t afford a huge controversy. MLB will minimize the size and scope of it as best they can. There will be no punishments other than maybe taking a draft pick away from Houston, as the center of it all so as to have applied more than zero disciplinary action. 
privately, teams will be told to knock it off and steal signs the old fashioned way, if they can. 
Once the memes run their course, this will be gone. 
i think astros fans should just stfu about it, take their medicine for a little while, wait for it to blow over. fan bases are good at doing that, right?

Step 1 minimize size and scope CHECK

Step 2 trivial penalties for Houston PENDING

[spystud13 2,371]

Bird DFA’d, Ellsbury released by Helobious’ heroes. Still over $26M owed to Jacoby, what a fucking disastrous contract.