2019 MLB thread

[UpperWestside 6165]

Ellsbury was disastrous money-wise. Bird was disastrous in that he never lived up to any of his hype and was a walking injury. At least Ellsbury was a valuable player at one point in his career. Looks like it'll be Andujar and Voit as the 1st baseman/DH combo assuming Andujar has a good spring and is fully healthy. 

[WBT 20572]

12 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

This article does nothing but make me wonder how an organization full of bros with econ and finance degrees from top schools fucked up the risk-reward assessment of this operation so badly.

Finance bros are generally dumbasses?

 

[Beau Vine 54230]

34 minutes ago, WBT said:

Finance bros are generally dumbasses?

 

The Astros had quants, though.  They had guys who were such quants that they didn't even speak English.  

[Helobious 9454]

You'll always have this moment, Greg.

 

[spystud13 2371]

Ouch, no insurance next year. 

Quote

The release means that the Yankees will eat the remaining $21 million on the seven-year, $153 million contract that Ellsbury signed with New York prior to the 2014 season, plus a $5 million buyout for the 2021 campaign. The New York Post reported that Ellsbury’s contract was not insured for 2020, as previous years had been. The $21 million figure will count against the Yankees’ luxury tax bill for 2020.

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

18 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Honestly I cannot think of an instance where it happened in North American pro sports. The size and scope of this is unprecedented, at least in recent memory, and it's a shame to see this. It doesn't matter the team, it just tarnishes the sport and that's not good obviously.

Huh?  The steroid scandal was not only much bigger than this, it left a very visible stat spike in it's era that will be seen as an anomaly forever.  The only punishments handed down were suspensions and a soft ban on the hall of fame which will eventually be lifted. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

15 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Huh?  The steroid scandal was not only much bigger than this, it left a very visible stat spike in it's era that will be seen as an anomaly forever.  The only punishments handed down were suspensions and a soft ban on the hall of fame which will eventually be lifted. 

I think the main difference is the fact that commish at the time viewed the steroid scandal as a league wide problem. Right or wrong, this is viewed as an isolated incident where one team is cheating, with tons of evidence to back it up (both with actual footage and stats). It’s getting talked about both by the commish and the media as the biggest cheating scandal this sport has ever seen. 
 

And regardless of what you might think about how much it actually helped, or how many other teams were doing, perception is reality. Especially when Manfred isn’t going to do a league wide investigation.

Edited November 21, 2019 by youdunnf'dup

[FondrenRoad 4378]

8 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I think the main difference is the fact that commish at the time viewed the steroid scandal as a league wide problem. Right or wrong, this is viewed as an isolated incident where one team is cheating, with tons of evidence to back it up (both with actual footage and stats). It’s getting talked about both by the commish and the media as the biggest cheating scandal this sport has ever seen. 
 

And regardless of what you might think about how much it actually helped, or how many other teams were doing, perception is reality. Especially when Manfred isn’t going to do a league wide investigation.

If it is widespread, I don't see how Manfred could contain it to one team. Players, coaches, and front office workers switch teams all the time. All it takes is a single person blowing the whistle on another team like Fiers did to the Astros. Manfred will have to expand the investigation.  Don't know if it will be "league wide" but it will be more like dominoes falling, one team at a time. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

19 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

If it is widespread, I don't see how Manfred could contain it to one team. Players, coaches, and front office workers switch teams all the time. All it takes is a single person blowing the whistle on another team like Fiers did to the Astros. Manfred will have to expand the investigation.  Don't know if it will be "league wide" but it will be more like dominoes falling, one team at a time. 

Right, but nobody else has come out yet. You’d think that would’ve already started, at least to a certain extent. Until they do, it’s just Fiers. And now they’re interviewing “thank god we got Osuna” douche, if I’m not mistaken. Who knows if he would actually spill anything, but he was fired by the organization, so he might have a motive. I’m just saying, at this point it’s just you guys. The Red Sox Apple Watch situation isn’t on the same level of this, at least not according to public perception and how it’s going to be handled in terms of punishment. So at this point it’s just a matter of assuming/hoping other teams are involved. And I think there probably are, but they haven’t been caught with concrete evidence. And probably not to this extent. There’s no reason to believe otherwise, other than to just say my gut tells me it’s more prevalent than we think. But that doesn’t mean shit. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

15 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Right, but nobody else has come out yet. You’d think that would’ve already started, at least to a certain extent. Until they do, it’s just Fiers. And now they’re interviewing “thank god we got Osuna” douche, if I’m not mistaken. Who knows if he would actually spill anything, but he was fired by the organization, so he might have a motive. I’m just saying, at this point it’s just you guys. The Red Sox Apple Watch situation isn’t on the same level of this, at least not according to public perception and how it’s going to be handled in terms of punishment. So at this point it’s just a matter of assuming/hoping other teams are involved. And I think there probably are, but they haven’t been caught with concrete evidence. And probably not to this extent. There’s no reason to believe otherwise, other than to just say my gut tells me it’s more prevalent than we think. But that doesn’t mean shit. 

I wouldn't expect the dominoes to fall yet. I think there is a wait and see approach being taken. When the heat starts to hit individuals, those individuals will give up other teams where they have worked. 

Even with the Astros investigation, Fiers has not been an Astro for two years. Took him two whole years to say a word. Why do you think that is?  Maybe he knew the Tigers were doing something similar so he waited til he was an A?  Maybe playing the Astros more often as an A pissed him off?  His timing is interesting and was certainly delayed. I would expect a delay from anyone else that eventually decides to talk as well. 

Taubman probably signed an NDA. Doubt he will talk at this point. Eventually maybe though. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[txhorns 2409]

If you want to put an actual stop to this, or stop it as much as possible, then you have to take away championships and individual awards.  Players don't care about a loss of draft picks or a hefty fine.  For them the reward still outweighs the risk.  Teams care more about it but still prefer the increased production over a draft pick or fine, especially when the increased production produces a championship.  You have to make the risks outweigh the reward if you truly want to stop this type of cheating.

 

A big problem for the Astros is that they have made themselves out to be the bad guy over the last few years.  No fans or media of other teams have any sympathy for them.  I think they get a harsher punishment than they may deserve because of this.

[Vic Mackey 47038]

44 minutes ago, txhorns said:

If you want to put an actual stop to this, or stop it as much as possible, then you have to take away championships and individual awards.  Players don't care about a loss of draft picks or a hefty fine.  For them the reward still outweighs the risk.  Teams care more about it but still prefer the increased production over a draft pick or fine, especially when the increased production produces a championship.  You have to make the risks outweigh the reward if you truly want to stop this type of cheating.

 

A big problem for the Astros is that they have made themselves out to be the bad guy over the last few years.  No fans or media of other teams have any sympathy for them.  I think they get a harsher punishment than they may deserve because of this.

Yep if all that comes from this is loss of draft picks and other soft shit, that will not deter it. A team will gladly trade draft picks for a championship. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

42 minutes ago, txhorns said:

If you want to put an actual stop to this, or stop it as much as possible, then you have to take away championships and individual awards.  Players don't care about a loss of draft picks or a hefty fine.  For them the reward still outweighs the risk.  Teams care more about it but still prefer the increased production over a draft pick or fine, especially when the increased production produces a championship.  You have to make the risks outweigh the reward if you truly want to stop this type of cheating.

 

A big problem for the Astros is that they have made themselves out to be the bad guy over the last few years.  No fans or media of other teams have any sympathy for them.  I think they get a harsher punishment than they may deserve because of this.

I tend to agree with you. One of the harsher punishment ideas that keeps getting thrown around is a multi-year postseason ban, but even then, they already got their title. If ownership told any franchise, especially one that hadn’t ever won a championship, that “we’re going to cheat to win a title, but it will ruin our pristine reputation, and we will get a 2 year postseason ban”, I think most would say that’s worth it.

[txhorns 2409]

2 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I tend to agree with you. One of the harsher punishment ideas that keeps getting thrown around is a multi-year postseason ban, but even then, they already got their title. If ownership told any franchise, especially one that hadn’t ever won a championship, that “we’re going to cheat to win a title, but it will ruin our pristine reputation, and we will get a 2 year postseason ban”, I think most would say that’s worth it.

A multi year postseason ban would certainly be harsher than a loss of draft picks or a fine.  At least with the postseason ban it's going to harm the team in free agency which is a short term effect.  But like you said, if you asked the Padres or Rangers I bet they would gladly take a championship this year even if it included a 2 year postseason ban immediately following that championship.

[txhorns 2409]

If I was the commissioner handing out the punishment it would be in the form of a ban on Hinch and Luhnow.  I think if you banned those two for say 5 years from baseball it would go a long way in deterring another team from doing the same type of cheating.

[txhorns 2409]

Grandal just signed with the White Sox for 4 years $73 million.

[David Dennison 18860]

There isn't a professional sport on earth that is going to ban a team from the post-season.

[WBT 20572]

3 hours ago, txhorns said:

Grandal just signed with the White Sox for 4 years $73 million.

That's quite the raise.  Last year he had to settle for one year $16 million.

[spystud13 2371]

Well, most rumors were he turned down 4/$64M from the Mets last offseason, but it all worked out in the end. 

[spystud13 2371]

And we fortunately have a non-Astros cheating thread now. 

 

[gsoda3 3262]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

There isn't a professional sport on earth that is going to ban a team from the post-season.

you ever hear of the heysel stadium disaster?  it was quite the punishment.

[David Dennison 18860]

17 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

you ever hear of the heysel stadium disaster?  it was quite the punishment.

Maybe the Astros will get banned from international team competition.

I'd be fine with that.

[gsoda3 3262]

26 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Maybe the Astros will get banned from international team competition.

I'd be fine with that.

for those who don't follow european soccer, the european tournaments are the equivalent of our postseason playoffs.  to not only have your club banned for a decade, but for all the teams from your country to be banned also (for a decade!), was huge.  just imagine if the entire AL was banned from postseason play because of this.  

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

6 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Right, but nobody else has come out yet. You’d think that would’ve already started, at least to a certain extent. Until they do, it’s just Fiers. And now they’re interviewing “thank god we got Osuna” douche, if I’m not mistaken. Who knows if he would actually spill anything, but he was fired by the organization, so he might have a motive. I’m just saying, at this point it’s just you guys. The Red Sox Apple Watch situation isn’t on the same level of this, at least not according to public perception and how it’s going to be handled in terms of punishment. So at this point it’s just a matter of assuming/hoping other teams are involved. And I think there probably are, but they haven’t been caught with concrete evidence. And probably not to this extent. There’s no reason to believe otherwise, other than to just say my gut tells me it’s more prevalent than we think. But that doesn’t mean shit. 

The initial article mentioned that the entire scheme was based off of techniques Beltran learned from a previous team. 

I am obviously biased, and I know it is very fun for others to see the Astros squirm (deservedly so!), but essentially containing this investigation to one team is Commissioner malpractice and I would not be shocked to see litigation if the Astros are the only team seriously looked into.

 

[txhorns 2409]

24 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

The initial article mentioned that the entire scheme was based off of techniques Beltran learned from a previous team. 

I am obviously biased, and I know it is very fun for others to see the Astros squirm (deservedly so!), but essentially containing this investigation to one team is Commissioner malpractice and I would not be shocked to see litigation if the Astros are the only team seriously looked into.

 

Really it all comes down to what actual evidence there is.  It appears that there is at least some concrete evidence that the Astros cheated.  They should be punished for that.  If there is physical evidence that others teams also did this then those teams should be punished as well.

[David Dennison 18860]

1 hour ago, gsoda3 said:

for those who don't follow european soccer, the european tournaments are the equivalent of our postseason playoffs.  to not only have your club banned for a decade, but for all the teams from your country to be banned also (for a decade!), was huge.  just imagine if the entire AL was banned from postseason play because of this.  

No, they aren't.

[Beau Vine 54230]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

The initial article mentioned that the entire scheme was based off of techniques Beltran learned from a previous team. 

I am obviously biased, and I know it is very fun for others to see the Astros squirm (deservedly so!), but essentially containing this investigation to one team is Commissioner malpractice and I would not be shocked to see litigation if the Astros are the only team seriously looked into.

 

lolwut???  Pretty sure franchises can't sue the league.  Part of the franchise agreement.  Leagues put it in to honor Al Davis.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

lolwut???  Pretty sure franchises can't sue the league.  Part of the franchise agreement.  Leagues put it in to honor Al Davis.

Oh so now you think the Astros will follow the rules?

[UpperWestside 6165]

16 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

Huh?  The steroid scandal was not only much bigger than this, it left a very visible stat spike in it's era that will be seen as an anomaly forever.  The only punishments handed down were suspensions and a soft ban on the hall of fame which will eventually be lifted. 

What happened is well documented from that time. We are not talking about steroids though. We are talking about a team allegedly using video technology to gain an advantage over the opponent. This is big and the story is not going away. This will be a huge black eye on the sport if it is true. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

17 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

What happened is well documented from that time. We are not talking about steroids though. We are talking about a team allegedly using video technology to gain an advantage over the opponent. This is big and the story is not going away. This will be a huge black eye on the sport if it is true. 

Right.  Documented.  Got it. It's like the Kennedy or Lincoln assassinations. Past history that happened before your time.  And I understand that.  You were too young for the steroid era to mean anything to you. For me though, the steroid era was a stain on baseball that is bigger than anything one team could do.  You do also realize that there was a team that actually threw the world series in the early 1900s, right?  And the winner of that series still has a title banner.  Nothing will come close to the Black Sox Scandal. But that one is before both our times, so obviously this is bigger.

Obviously the "right now" scandal is always the biggest for people living now.  Actual judges put things in better perspective though.  

Like steroids, this is just the beginning of a snowball. And also like steroids, it starts with a guy that spent time on several teams. One of those teams was yours. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[gsoda3 3262]

8 hours ago, David Dennison said:

No, they aren't.

qualify for them the year before and play the matches throughout the next season.  earn millions more by participating in them.  yeah they might be a bigger deal than our playoffs.

[UpperWestside 6165]

14 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Right.  Documented.  Got it. It's like the Kennedy or Lincoln assassinations. Past history that happened before your time.  And I understand that.  You were too young for the steroid era to mean anything to you. You do also realize that there was a team that actually threw the world series in the early 1900s, right?  And the winner of that series still has a title banner.  Nothing will come close to the Black Sox Scandal. But that one is before both our times, so obviously this is bigger. 

Obviously the "right now" scandal is always the biggest for people living now.  Actual judges put things in better perspective though.  

Like steroids, this is just the beginning of a snowball. And also like steroids, it starts with a guy that spent time on several teams. One of those teams was yours. 

I am well aware of the Black Sox scandal. Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall. Spare me the you know more about the National Pastime schtick than I do. I am also well aware of the Steroid era. The player I looked up to as a kid was a central figure in that scandal. Completely changed my childhood in regards to baseball. 

I have also said SEVERAL TIMES that I could not care any less if an investigation put the Yankees in the crosshairs. I am a fan of the sport more than anything else. I really do not understand why I have to restate that several times. Clean up the sport and if Houston did what was alleged then hit them with the harshest penalty ever handed down and take away the 2017 World Series if the evidence leads Manfred to that conclusion. If he finds evidence of the Yankees doing it then hit them just as hard and take away regular season wins, money, draft picks and any wins from the post-season of whatever year is in question. Christ this is not that hard. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by UpperWestside

[FondrenRoad 4378]

15 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I am well aware of the Black Sox scandal. Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall. Spare me the you know more about the National Pastime schtick than I do. I am also well aware of the Steroid era. The player I looked up to as a kid was a central figure in that scandal. Completely changed my childhood in regards to baseball. 

I have also said SEVERAL TIMES that I could not care any less if an investigation put the Yankees in the crosshairs. I am a fan of the sport more than anything else. I really do not understand why I have to restate that several times. Clean up the sport and if Houston did what was alleged then hit them with the harshest penalty ever handed down and take away the 2017 World Series if the evidence leads Manfred to that conclusion. If he finds  evidence of the Yankees doing it then hit them just as hard and take away regular season wins, money, draft picks and any wins from the post-season of whatever year is in question. Christ this is not that hard. 

You start okay and then you go into the harshest penalty ever nonsense.  This isn't in the top 3 worst scandals in baseball no matter how many teams were doing it. 

But take away the bash bros and Bonds World Series' first, and then we will talk about that as a possible penalty for this and other scandals.  But like I said. I get it.  You looked up to some player that came from the steroid era. But you weren't around for it nor were you around for the pre-steroid era. If you had been around pre-steroids, you'd understand that it was a much bigger scandal than this one.  Especially if only one team is sign stealing. But steroids would be bigger even if every team was sign stealing. It was a bigger scandal. Period. 

Really, you're still just pissed cuz the Astros beat your Yankees. Sign stealing didn't stop your guys from hitting though.  I get that too though. 

If anything, what all these scandals should tell you is that baseball is always going to find the "fix" that turns into a scandal. It is never going to be a pure game.  More than any other sport, it's analytics driven.  You can't better athlete your way ahead like in other sports. I don't think baseball has ever gone a single decade without a "historic" scandal that current fans think will kill the game. But all the scandals age and become history.   The game has never been and never will be clean. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[David Dennison 18860]

7 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

I am well aware of the Black Sox scandal. Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall. Spare me the you know more about the National Pastime schtick than I do. I am also well aware of the Steroid era. The player I looked up to as a kid was a central figure in that scandal. Completely changed my childhood in regards to baseball. 

I have also said SEVERAL TIMES that I could not care any less if an investigation put the Yankees in the crosshairs. I am a fan of the sport more than anything else. I really do not understand why I have to restate that several times. Clean up the sport and if Houston did what was alleged then hit them with the harshest penalty ever handed down and take away the 2017 World Series if the evidence leads Manfred to that conclusion. If he finds evidence of the Yankees doing it then hit them just as hard and take away regular season wins, money, draft picks and any wins from the post-season of whatever year is in question. Christ this is not that hard. 

MLB will never vacate wins. Ever. They are not going to punish fans.

[David Dennison 18860]

7 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

qualify for them the year before and play the matches throughout the next season.  earn millions more by participating in them.  yeah they might be a bigger deal than our playoffs.

Add to those things a different roster and you've got a tournament that is very different from playoff formats in America.

Champions League is a big deal, but it is very different from American style playoffs that we're all used to.

[txhorns 2409]

There's a huge difference in the steriod scandal and this one with the Astros.  The steriod era was individual players choosing to dope up to gain a competitive advantage.  It was very widespread but still individual players.

With the Astros it is a team that has organized the cheating.  The actual team organization participated in it.  That is a huge difference over individual players cheating, no matter how widespread the steriod dosing was.  It really takes this scandal up a notch when the team that cheated won the championship.  Their cheating directly resulted in a championship, that's a big deal.  That's why the Astros are under so much scrutiny right now.  It also doesn't help the the Astros front office has made huge mistakes in the public perception area either.

[gsoda3 3262]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Add to those things a different roster and you've got a tournament that is very different from playoff formats in America.

Champions League is a big deal, but it is very different from American style playoffs that we're all used to.

yes they're not identical especially in structure.  however the similarity is the main emphasis for the premier clubs in europe is getting to the champions league and winning that, much as it is in getting to the playoffs and winning the superbowl/world series/stanley cup/nba finals.  that's what the players are working toward.  banning the entire top tier of english football from europe was exactly banning any pro sport from the playoffs.  

[UpperWestside 6165]

22 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

You start okay and then you go into the harshest penalty ever nonsense.  This isn't in the top 3 worst scandals in baseball no matter how many teams were doing it.

Really, you're still just pissed cuz the Astros beat your Yankees.

This is a classic deflect attempt. I do not care what else has happened in the history of the sport. This is focused on something alleged by Mike Fiers and three unnamed players from 2017. Quit taking the focus off of it. 

I am not pissed because, and I have said this before on here, I spend time watching the Yanks because my mother is a lifelong fan of the team going back to the 1950's. She grew up on Mickey Mantle. That was her hero. I go to so many games because I love baseball, but also so I can share it with my mother who lives in Texas and the Yankee games I see with her. It is a way to connect with a parent and the sport she loves. Hell she played fast pitch softball until she was 40 and knew her time was done playing. Most competitive person I have ever known. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by UpperWestside

[FondrenRoad 4378]

11 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This is a classic deflect attempt. I do not care what else has happened in the history of the sport. This is focused on something alleged by Mike Fiers and three unnamed players from 2017. Quit taking the focus off of it. 

I am not pissed because, and I have said this before on here, I spend time watching the Yanks because my mother is a lifelong fan of the team going back to the 1950's. She grew up on Mickey Mantle. That was her hero. I go to so many games because I love baseball, but also so I can share it with my mother who lives in Texas and the Yankee games I see with her. It is a way to connect with a parent and the sport she loves. Hell she played fast pitch softball until she was 40 and knew her time was done playing. Most competitive person I have ever known. 

No deflection.  You broadened the scope by your use of comparative and superlative terms.  Our discussion began with your quote below calling this scandal unprecedented.  You then went on to call for the harshest penalty ever.  Perhaps if you wanted to stick with discussing only this particular scandal introduced by 4 players in 2017, you wouldn't have rushed to hyperbole.  Both of those statements require a look back at past scandals for comparison. 

My point remains that if one team did this, its a blip as far as a scandal goes.  If the whole league did it, its a much larger scandal but still not unprecedented.  Finally, no matter the final result of the investigation, the harshest penalty ever (whatever that actually means) should not be applied.  

On 11/20/2019 at 2:38 PM, UpperWestside said:

Honestly I cannot think of an instance where it happened in North American pro sports. The size and scope of this is unprecedented, at least in recent memory, and it's a shame to see this. It doesn't matter the team, it just tarnishes the sport and that's not good obviously.

As a baseball fan myself, if only the Astros did it, then they should be punished appropriately.  Again, that shouldn't mean the harshest penalty ever should be applied as that isn't appropriate.  If everyone was doing it, then punishment is a tough call.  Either way, I want a league wide investigation to occur.  If a team is deemed clean, then they are clean.   If every team is deemed clean except the Astros, then punish the Astros appropriately.  Although the Red Sox and Yankees were already deemed dirty in 2017.  My primary concern as an Astros fan is that only the Astros will be investigated even as enough evidence is uncovered to warrant investigations into other teams.  It seems pretty clear that even if everyone else was doing it, i will be ignored by the league, the league's commissioner, and fans like you.

Seriously, I can't think of anything that would tarnish the sport more than narrowly focusing on a single team.  The Yankees and Red Sox were both already caught stealing signs electronically in 2017, and it seems that everyone wants to forget that happened.  Also, thus far, the focus is on the Astros 2017 season, so not only is this scandal not "unprecedented" in history,  it also isn't unprecedented for the season in question.  So while your Yankees and the Red Sox were fined an undisclosed amount for electronic sign stealing in 2017, here you are wanting to retroactively have titles stripped and other harsh penalties for similar transgressions that occurred in the same season.  

It really isn't until you look at the 2018 and 2019 Astro seasons, post Manfred's hollow "warning", that you can apply harsher penalties.  The Astros didn't win a title in either one.

What it really comes down to is this.  The league's 2 biggest franchises were given a slap on the wrist for electronic sign stealing because the league was afraid of giving them harsher penalties.  Now that another team is caught doing it, in the same season no less, the league wants to be more heavy handed.  They should have brought the hammer down on the Yankees and the Sox if they wanted to have a hammer to use against other teams.

[Jshep34 2308]

^^this^^ all of it.

[David Dennison 18860]

On 11/22/2019 at 9:43 AM, gsoda3 said:

yes they're not identical especially in structure.  however the similarity is the main emphasis for the premier clubs in europe is getting to the champions league and winning that, much as it is in getting to the playoffs and winning the superbowl/world series/stanley cup/nba finals.  that's what the players are working toward.  banning the entire top tier of english football from europe was exactly banning any pro sport from the playoffs.  

I disagree. I don't think it's like that at all.

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

On 11/20/2019 at 10:55 PM, Helobious said:

You'll always have this moment, Greg.

 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

On 11/21/2019 at 3:27 PM, gsoda3 said:

for those who don't follow european soccer, the european tournaments are the equivalent of our postseason playoffs.  to not only have your club banned for a decade, but for all the teams from your country to be banned also (for a decade!), was huge.  just imagine if the entire AL was banned from postseason play because of this.  

So which one of the two teams committed the most egregious act of cheating ever seen in the sport?

[David Dennison 18860]

4 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

So which one of the two teams committed the most egregious act of cheating ever seen in the sport?

LOL wut?

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

56 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

LOL wut?

rothishamburger_meme.jpg

[gsoda3 3262]

10 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

So which one of the two teams committed the most egregious act of cheating ever seen in the sport?

they were actually punished for hooliganism.  an entire country's top flight division banned from their postseason (or not postseason if you're of DD's opinion) tournaments.

[Carl Spackler 3483]

[David Dennison 18860]

5 hours ago, Carl Spackler said:

That's funny.

[huge 3793]

they were actually punished for hooliganism.  an entire country's top flight division banned from their postseason (or not postseason if you're of DD's opinion) tournaments.

Who and when did this happen?

[gsoda3 3262]

Long time ago, the 80s?