Buttigieg 2020

[Hank Kingsley 20939]

Bring it, motherfuckers. Time to take on the religious right.

 

[bad_teammate 13195]

I would prefer it if the leader didn't need so much "healthy pressure" from the poor people his policies displace. It would be much better if his initial push wasn't directed as much by outside consultants and data obsession and more by a genuine concern for the people whose lives are visibly falling apart.

2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Bring it, motherfuckers. Time to take on the religious right.

Aside from raising Pete's profile and burnishing his image as The Goodest Good Boy, what does this do for anyone?

You can't win a fight with religious people. You don't logic and reason someone out of a position they didn't logic and reason their way into.

 

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

14 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Aside from raising Pete's profile and burnishing his image as The Goodest Good Boy, what does this do for anyone?

Morally, I figured you of all people would be able to appreciate someone trying to steer the religious conversation away from exclusion and judgement, and towards acceptance and helping others.

Politically, I'm not sure I can think of a "hot button issue" Republicans would want less to be a centerpiece of the 2020 campaign than same-sex marriage and Christianity's perception of it.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Chuckie Finster

[bad_teammate 13195]

29 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Morally, I figured you of all people would be able to appreciate someone trying to steer the religious conversation away from exclusion and judgement, and towards acceptance and helping others.

lol that's not what Pete is doing, come on

Pete: “Is it that he (Pence) stopped believing in Scripture when he started believing in Donald Trump? I don’t know.”

Nope. That's not an open-minded, open-hearted call for acceptance and helping others and away from exclusion and judgement. That statement is ALL judgement. You and I agree with the judgement because we (rightly) despise Mike Pence and what Pence stands for, but this isn't Pete being a nice guy. This isn't Pete being the shepherd gently calling Pence back into the flock. This is a politician attacking a rival politician on a fairly profound and personal level.

Then we get this quote from Pence when Pete came out: "I hold Mayor Buttigieg in the highest personal regard. I see him as a dedicated public servant and a patriot."

That's a bad look. And not just a bad look, but a pretty firm slap in the face against what is, frankly, a dumb and pointless strategy of going directly after a man's faith.

And again, it's a Biblically unsound argument. What scripture says to not serve under sinners?

Quote

Politically, I'm not sure I can think of a "hot button issue" Republicans would want less to be a centerpiece of the 2020 campaign than same-sex marriage and Christianity's perception of it.

Sure, but, "Know-it-all liberal college kids are attacking the faith of good Americans!" is an issue they would LOVE to have, and Pete seems determined to give it to them.

Imagine a VP debate in which Pence says, "When you came out I praised you. I called you a patriot and dedicated public servant. I held no ill will in my heart for you then. So I was hurt when you attacked my faith and my belief in the Scripture that I've held so dear to me my entire life and has guided me as I try my best to serve people and help people."

Oops.

Wonder Boy isn't going to win this fight. He needs to step out of the arena. The next time someone asks about Pence, he needs to not take the bait. (Don't apologize, though. Never apologize to those animals.)

[MidTexHorn 822]

As a former right wing Christian (grew up somewhere to the right of Jerry Falwell) with much of my family (at least the older folks) still in that same boat, I tend to agree with @bad_teammate on this. While I appreciate what Pete is saying and really like the guy, it's a no win argument. Every time I try to come up with a religious argument for my family, I ultimately reject it and decide to stay silent because you just can't argue with faith. They believe what they want and and I just can't refute that, no matter how ridiculous or hypocritical I think they're being. Better to stay away from the faith based arguments and stick to facts, science and reality. It's the winning argument in the long run.

[henrygandorf 29191]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Imagine a VP debate in which Pence says, "When you came out I praised you. I called you a patriot and dedicated public servant. I held no ill will in my heart for you then. So I was hurt when you attacked my faith and my belief in the Scripture that I've held so dear to me my entire life and has guided me as I try my best to serve people and help people."

Oops.

Wonder Boy isn't going to win this fight. He needs to step out of the arena. The next time someone asks about Pence, he needs to not take the bait. (Don't apologize, though. Never apologize to those animals.)

saying "oops" or implying that reliving pence's 2015 praise of pete is going to bring sympathy to the vp and turn pete into an unlikable bully makes me think this thread belongs on the lulz board.

[UTDD 362]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Morally, I figured you of all people would be able to appreciate someone trying to steer the religious conversation away from exclusion and judgement, and towards acceptance and helping others.

Politically, I'm not sure I can think of a "hot button issue" Republicans would want less to be a centerpiece of the 2020 campaign than same-sex marriage and Christianity's perception of it.

Yeah, this issue is dead down the road especially as the next generation comes into adulthood.  I have significant contact with younger people, and many younger people with very conservative parents that are financially very well off and very (so they are often highly exposed to much more conservative/restrictive viewpoints on this) religious, and I'd estimate at least 90% of these kids (12-24 age range or so in my personal experience) find it silly and downright archaic that this is an issue for some people. 

[TexEx15 17528]

On an individual level religion can do amazing things for people.  On a large scale it has led to some of the worst atrocities mankind has ever seen.

I have always laughed when people try to assert religion as a reason to not support gay marriage.  However, when it comes to the government doing so such as Pence or that bitch Kim I believe it was it is just infuriating.

Imagine a gay atheist couple being told they can’t marry because a book they don’t believe in says they can’t, never mind the fact it doesn’t actually state that.  It’s fucking ludicrous.

And yet republicans thump their bibles about what is right according to god while blasting athletes that would dare kneel if protest for equal justice.

Religion should have no place in politics or government period.

I realize none of this is breaking news but all this shitty Pence talk made me think about religion and government and I’m bored in a meeting, which also accounts for the rambling nature.

 

 

 

[henrygandorf 29191]

6 minutes ago, TexEx15 said:

Religion should have no place in politics or government period.

100% agree with you, and i don't want this to spin off topic...but i think that just because there's a separation of church and state doesn't mean there's a separation of religion and politics.  it's just not realistic, unfortunately.  and whether it's used in campaigning or completely ignored, the candidates aren't in charge of deciding what is and isn't important to voters.

to me, that's why it's interesting that mayor pete is using this coming from the left, in a move not often seen in recent presidential elections.

(and before bad_teammate jumps on me, i'm saying i think it's interesting.  i didn't say it's smart or dumb or the right or wrong move.  but it's worth a discussion.) 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Bring it, motherfuckers. Time to take on the religious right.

 

I personally am curious to see the “science” that says God didn’t make gay people. 

[TDunk 590]

59 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I personally am curious to see the “science” that says God didn’t make gay people. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Poor Pence

[UTDD 362]

7 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

I personally am curious to see the “science” that says God didn’t make gay people. 

Indeed.  I also wonder how can anyone that believes in God as an infinite being can possibly NOT believe that literally everything that has existed, does exist, and ever will exist was created by God?  If God didn't make something that exists, what does that mean about God?  Even if an ultra religious person believes there is choice involved in being gay, who created that choice?  It's all very confusing to me...I still never got my question answered at eight years old about how a child born for 1 minute then dying in Africa without having the chance to ever hear of religion much less convert is somehow logically barred from heaven forever and yet there is infinite and everlasting love for all beings.  I'm just confused  I guess...

[Satchel 6938]

9 hours ago, MidTexHorn said:

As a former right wing Christian (grew up somewhere to the right of Jerry Falwell) with much of my family (at least the older folks) still in that same boat, I tend to agree with @bad_teammate on this. While I appreciate what Pete is saying and really like the guy, it's a no win argument. Every time I try to come up with a religious argument for my family, I ultimately reject it and decide to stay silent because you just can't argue with faith. They believe what they want and and I just can't refute that, no matter how ridiculous or hypocritical I think they're being. Better to stay away from the faith based arguments and stick to facts, science and reality. It's the winning argument in the long run.

Yep. Tis true, because it's not what they know, it's what they believe which is invulnerable to disproof.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

7 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

I personally am curious to see the “science” that says God didn’t make gay people. 

And the scripture. 

[Mole 4333]

11 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

And again, it's a Biblically unsound argument. What scripture says to not serve under sinners?

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Trump checks 5/6 boxes as best as I can see. The problem isn’t that Trump is an unrepentant sinner; the problem is that he’s claiming Christ while pretty plainly demonstrating himself to be an unrepentant sinner.

Or as the next verse (5:12) says: What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

[henrygandorf 29191]

leave mike pence alone!

 

(this is from a year ago, but a bunch of great clips, both older and newer)

[bad_teammate 13195]

7 hours ago, Mole said:

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Trump checks 5/6 boxes as best as I can see. The problem isn’t that Trump is an unrepentant sinner; the problem is that he’s claiming Christ while pretty plainly demonstrating himself to be an unrepentant sinner.

Or as the next verse (5:12) says: What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

- Trump and Pence aren't brothers in the faith, odds that those two have attended church together non-politically are a flat zero

- You don't know whether or not Donald is repentant or unrepentant

- It is not those who are well who need the physician.

(lol religion!!!)

[atomheartbevo 89666]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

 You don't know whether or not Donald is repentant or unrepentant

He told a roomful of Christian leaders that he doesn’t need to ask for forgiveness for his sins, and that he really doesn’t do bad things.  

He’s not religious and gives no fucks.  

[NWBuck 8565]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

He told a roomful of Christian leaders that he doesn’t need to ask for forgiveness for his sins, and that he really doesn’t do bad things.  

He’s not religious and gives no fucks.  

... Unless they're to porn stars 

[bad_teammate 13195]

4 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

He told a roomful of Christian leaders that he doesn’t need to ask for forgiveness for his sins, and that he really doesn’t do bad things. 

He's private with his faith.

lol

[Hank Kingsley 20939]

Buttigieg is being interviewed on The Ellen Show today and the episode will air tomorrow. He officially announces his candidacy on Sunday. 

Pete clearly wants this fight with Pence and the evangelicals. Not sure if it's the correct strategy, but it's definitely calculated.  The situation could really blow up if he continues the attack in his interview with DeGeneres, as their will be a lot of people watching. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Hank Kingsley

[kevwun 15788]

I like it.  Make them own up to their hypocrisy.

[bad_teammate 13195]

3 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Make them own up to their hypocrisy.

The number of evangelicals who are going to feel shamed by Pete Buttigieg is somewhere between -1 and 1.

[Hank Kingsley 20939]

 

[henrygandorf 29191]

18 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The number of evangelicals who are going to feel shamed by Pete Buttigieg is somewhere between -1 and 1.

well no duh. that’s not his objective. 

[kevwun 15788]

If the rest of society understands they are hypocritical assholes, they'll tune them out and stop voting for them.

Edited April 11, 2019 by kevwun

[bad_teammate 13195]

What's the demographic we're thinking about here?

[kevwun 15788]

Everyone who isn't an evangelical.

Edited April 11, 2019 by kevwun

[henrygandorf 29191]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What's the demographic we're thinking about here?

as far as who these remarks are meant for?

i would say there are a lot of republican voters out there who aren't religious zealots, but faith is a part of their lives.  they likely have issues with donald trump as a human, but this whole time they've been able to rationalize it by saying, "well, he's paired with mike pence, and he's a man of extraordinary faith and values, so it evens out."  pairings like these have been going on for decades.  they're not accidents.

by attacking pence in the way i've been saying - implying that he's hypocritical, and that he (and others) have basically sold out their beliefs in order to fall in line with trump - pete can open some eyes and make some of those voters rethink things in 2020.

the nice thing about how pete is doing this - is that it helps all dems.  if these comments/attacks weaken pence, and therefore trump, then it helps bernie, biden, kamala, warren - it doesn't matter.  i'm glad he's doing it, because it comes from a good place, as pete is also a man of faith.  it would be extremely disingenuous for some of the other candidates to do it. 

he doesn't have to change hearts and minds.  he just has to cast some doubt, and maybe some of these people stay home on election day.  it won't take much.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

37 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The number of evangelicals who are going to feel shamed by Pete Buttigieg is somewhere between -1 and 1.

The number of evangelical mouthbreathers who aren't going to vote for Trump in 2020 is somewhere between -1 and 1. I don't think Pete is trying to recruit them into his base, just trying get the other 75% of the country to point and laugh at their hypocrisy. I love it. 

Every time Pence comes out and says he is against gay marriage it is a win for Pete. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i would say there are a lot of republican voters out there who aren't religious zealots, but faith is a part of their lives.  they likely have issues with donald trump as a human, but this whole time they've been able to rationalize it by saying, "well, he's paired with mike pence, and he's a man of extraordinary faith and values, so it evens out."  pairings like these have been going on for decades.  they're not accidents.
by attacking pence in the way i've been saying - implying that he's hypocritical, and that he (and others) have basically sold out their beliefs in order to fall in line with trump - pete can open some eyes and make some of those voters rethink things in 2020.

Are the types of people who care so much about Jesus that they were won over by Mike Pence likely to care about the moral scolding of a 37-year-old gay man who goes around playing piano and speaking Norwegian?

No doubt it's good way to get attention in a primary, of course.

2 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

I don't think Pete is trying to recruit them into his base, just trying get the other 75% of the country to point and laugh at their hypocrisy. I love it.

So it's kind of a Trumpian game of winning over the Dem base by demeaning their enemy? Whoever can own the conservatives the hardest?

[henrygandorf 29191]

8 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

I don't think Pete is trying to recruit them into his base

yep.  it's never been as simple as "i'm a better christian than mike pence, so vote for me instead."

[henrygandorf 29191]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Are the types of people who care so much about Jesus that they were won over by Mike Pence likely to care about the moral scolding of a 37-year-old gay man who goes around playing piano and speaking Norwegian?

No doubt it's good way to get attention in a primary, of course.

So it's kind of a Trumpian game of winning over the Dem base by demeaning their enemy? Whoever can own the conservatives the hardest?

you've been thinking about this too much in black and white.

'faith and religion' has been a weapon of the right for forever.  for pete to be able to access it through his own background and his own faith (as well as personal geographical overlap) enables him to use it as a wedge for himself and for his party against the gop in 2020.

when you say "they were won over by mike pence" - i don't think that's accurate.  these are conservatives who are religious.  they weren't undecideds with no formulation of an idea of who to vote for.  like i said, they used pence as a rationalization back before they knew that trump was a fucking monster.  that rationalization will be a tougher sell in 2020, and it won't take much to turn this election.  2016 was pretty close, all things considered.  and there are no fewer than 6-8 dems who are better candidates than hrc.

a lot of folks are out there saying "you can't make this election all about just beating trump."  while true, sort of, you have to make some of it about that.  warren's issues, biden's name, pete's piano-playing - these aren't enough on their own.  you can't just assume that the american people are completely aware of what this man has been up to.  it'll get more vitriolic in the general, but i don't mind the occasional grenade lob now.  it's clearly working.

it's also easier/more effective now, before trump/pence know who they're running against.

[Hank Kingsley 20939]

27 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

by attacking pence in the way i've been saying - implying that he's hypocritical, and that he (and others) have basically sold out their beliefs in order to fall in line with trump - pete can open some eyes and make some of those voters rethink things in 2020.

the nice thing about how pete is doing this - is that it helps all dems.  if these comments/attacks weaken pence, and therefore trump, then it helps bernie, biden, kamala, warren - it doesn't matter.  i'm glad he's doing it, because it comes from a good place, as pete is also a man of faith.  it would be extremely disingenuous for some of the other candidates to do it. 

he doesn't have to change hearts and minds.  he just has to cast some doubt, and maybe some of these people stay home on election day.  it won't take much.

Agreed. Let's remember that Buttigieg ran for DNC chair in 2017. He loves his party, but also recognizes their failures in 2016 and has his own thoughts on how to fight the GOP and reclaim the Democrats as the party of "values".  That game plan is currently in action with the Pence/religious right remarks. 

 

 

[Celery Man 20949]

Without thinking very hard about it, young people who are Christian or were raised in Christian/evangelical environments. I’m perfectly ready to write off the old fucks but there are plenty of young Christians with more modern views that are still a strong balance against the evil that has corrupted that community.

[atomheartbevo 89666]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Buttigieg is being interviewed on The Ellen Show today and the episode will air tomorrow. He officially announces his candidacy on Sunday. 

Pete clearly wants this fight with Pence and the evangelicals. Not sure if it's the correct strategy, but it's definitely calculated.  The situation could really blow up if he continues the attack in his interview with DeGeneres, as their will be a lot of people watching. 

 

9 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Without thinking very hard about it, young people who are Christian or were raised in Christian/evangelical environments. I’m perfectly ready to write off the old fucks but there are plenty of young Christians with more modern views that are still a strong balance against the evil that has corrupted that community.

Pete wants this fight, or discussion depending on your POV, with Pence and the evangelicals (and Trump by proxy), because that fight is going to happen whether Pete wants it to or not, and he knows it.  Both Trump and Pence loathe gay marriage, and it's one of the biggest negatives (in their minds) to the Trump base.  

There's just not a whole lot else for them to attack Pete over (look at them reaching back to his dead father's writings), because it's the Streisand Effect in politics - they don't want to draw attention to his successes in various areas.

At some point, Pence and/or the evangelicals are going to go after him for being a homosexual married to another man.  By doing this now, Pete is controlling when and where this little fight is going to happen, which. means putting Pence and Trump on the defensive.   He gets to define the Christian that he is, rather than waiting for them to define him.  He gets to make them come out and try to portray him as some evil homersexual, just after he's started pointing out where they are hypocrites, and he's already throwing scripture out there, which is a debate that Trump can't win, and I'm thinking Pence can't either.

Arguably, he's taking a small page from Trump's playbook right now - have this fight now, be very blunt about it, define his stance, and people will be tired of it by the time the primaries and general roll around.

[atomheartbevo 89666]

And I do think there are plenty of young Christians who could easily find themselves voting for Pete.

I know plenty of young people who define themselves as Christians, but they are not evangelicals, not even close - they are fully comfortable in a more secular society (where Pence isn't), and the idea of somebody like Pete, who is very open about his being a Christian, being in a stable/caring marriage is more appealing than somebody like Trump who publicly cheats on his wives, and who openly scoffs at the idea of asking for forgiveness from God, and doesn't believe he needs to repent (something that should have turned a lot of evangelicals off).

[JimmyJames 12271]

Dude is definitely purposefully going after Pence. Dude also worked for McKinsey. My guess he knows what he’s doing and the strategy is sound. 

[henrygandorf 29191]

after posting some iowa polls where pete was 3rd, the cnn analysts cited a few things:

 

-he's 3rd and well over half of iowa doesn't know who he is yet.  his likability among those who know him is insanely high, and his poll numbers will only rise as 2020 approaches

-they called the biden/bernie numbers disappointing considering their name recognition.  stating that gore and hillary were way higher at this point, and it is worrisome (the fact that there's two of them is a huge defining factor in their "low" numbers obviously)

-they called his strategy of going after pence "incredibly shrewd", since he's saying something many agree with, and attacking trump without really attacking trump, by implying that pence is being "disingenuous" standing behind him (something we've obviously all been saying).  also that pence can be vulnerable to these types of attacks, but pete is the only one doing it.

 

liberal media and all that, but i love that these stories are out there.  even if it's not "expert" analysis, people are watching.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Calling pence disingenuous for standing behind trump despite his obvious immorality is genius because (1) it’s so obviously true, (2) it attacks trump without really doing so and (3) Pence can’t muster a defense to it.

What’s he gonna say? Well I stood behind trump because I was waiting for him to either croak or get impeached? 

Nope. The only thing they’ve come up with so far is that Pete should have aired his grievances to pence “in private.”

That won’t get you very far. Plus it implies that Pete is both right and that pence has something to be ashamed about “in public.”

This Pete dude seems kind of smart. Let’s see if it lasts. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

I don't think Pete intended his campaign to be scorched earth. It seems like he had been very carefully crafting himself to NOT be a progressive demagogue and right now we are kind of trying to have it both ways: (A) he's a mild-mannered, data-driven technocrat with a heart of gold and (B) he is a furious progressive Jesus going through the temple with a flaming whip.

I MUCH prefer Option B, but is he going to commit to the bit?

I am on record as wanting a pissed off candidate. Enough dopey smiles and both-sides-work-together BS. If Pete is going to be the Left's flamethrower of justice I'll put on my pink camo and march in his glorious gay army.

[Hank Kingsley 20939]

He specifically mentioned Pence twice in a prepared speech to the LGBTQ community and knew it would be highly publicized. Clearly intentional. 

 

 

[henrygandorf 29191]

32 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I don't think Pete intended his campaign to be scorched earth. It seems like he had been very carefully crafting himself to NOT be a progressive demagogue and right now we are kind of trying to have it both ways: (A) he's a mild-mannered, data-driven technocrat with a heart of gold and (B) he is a furious progressive Jesus going through the temple with a flaming whip.

I MUCH prefer Option B, but is he going to commit to the bit?

I am on record as wanting a pissed off candidate. Enough dopey smiles and both-sides-work-together BS. If Pete is going to be the Left's flamethrower of justice I'll put on my pink camo and march in his glorious gay army.

i think the only reason we can, in theory, have it both ways, is because he's not going after his fellow dems (yet).  he can go scorched earth on pence, but still speak intelligently about himself to the left, discussing experience, plans, policy, personality, and values. 

i think it's incredibly smart to work it that way, even if unintentional.  right now, he's winning points with the left while not offending anyone who actually has the chance to vote for him.  and the smart republicans know that the more they acknowledge these attacks, the bigger platform they give him - which is not what they want - because i don't think they know how to run against him yet.  

i guarantee you that a lot of trump supporters are hoping the dems bloody the shit out of each other in the next 12 months, leaving a weakened nominee that trump can roll over.  their narrative will be that the dems are fragmented and unorganized - all exposing each others warts, while the gop is strong, steady, and battle-tested.

and the reason it will work on the bernie bros like yourself, is because if pete wins the nom, he won't have done so by trashing bernie, and you'll gladly vote for him in the general.  if he doesn't get the nom, it won't matter anyway.

[Hank Kingsley 20939]

 

[henrygandorf 29191]

9 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

 

some people will probably see this tweet or see the show tomorrow and think it's the first time he's called out pence.  the call-to-action is interesting.

pence has become a master of deflection, so i'm sure we'll see more of the same.

[Hank Kingsley 20939]

 

[bad_teammate 13195]

"I'm not critical of his faith."

"I'm not interested in feuding with the Vice President."

Starting a fight with someone who barely even knows you're there and then backing away like, "Hey, whoa buddy, calm down!" as soon as everyone starts looking is some petty political shit. We can appreciate the cold political calculus of it because we don't like who he's doing it to (because we don't), but that doesn't make it less political or calculated.

14 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

pence has become a master of deflection

Pence called it for exactly what it was immediately.

“I get it, you know, it's like, you have 19 people running for president on that side, and part of it is sliding off to the left. They're all competing with one another for how much more liberal they can be. I get that.”

[henrygandorf 29191]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

"I'm not critical of his faith."

"I'm not interested in feuding with the Vice President."

Starting a fight with someone who barely even knows you're there and then backing away like, "Hey, whoa buddy, calm down!" as soon as everyone starts looking is some petty political shit. We can appreciate the cold political calculus of it because we don't like who he's doing it to (because we don't), but that doesn't make it less political or calculated.

Pence called it for exactly what it was immediately.

“I get it, you know, it's like, you have 19 people running for president on that side, and part of it is sliding off to the left. They're all competing with one another for how much more liberal they can be. I get that.”

yeah, i meant his specific call-to-action, from the clip, which he will be asked about.  and his many deflections on a variety of topics.

but yeah, i'm thinking this post is gonna go well for you.

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"I'm not critical of his faith."

"I'm not interested in feuding with the Vice President."

Starting a fight with someone who barely even knows you're there and then backing away like, "Hey, whoa buddy, calm down!" as soon as everyone starts looking is some petty political shit. We can appreciate the cold political calculus of it because we don't like who he's doing it to (because we don't), but that doesn't make it less political or calculated.

Pence called it for exactly what it was immediately.

“I get it, you know, it's like, you have 19 people running for president on that side, and part of it is sliding off to the left. They're all competing with one another for how much more liberal they can be. I get that.”

So you down with mayor Pete or no?