Buttigieg 2020

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

which folks?  progressive voters?

No idea but Pete didn't pivot until he dropped off from his 8% high back in April.  Not sure if you guys are ready to acknowledge he pivoted but he did it successfully because he's now pushing 9-10%. 

[Hank Kingsley 20988]

Psst...there wasn't a pivot. 

 

[henrygandorf 29194]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

No idea but Pete didn't pivot until he dropped off from his 8% high back in April.

no idea either, but about 15 posts ago you made a comment about him being "in the spotlight" and recently he's been polling in the top 4 across the board (like you said - successfully).  but then a few posts ago, you're saying "lots of folks bailed on him".  so i was wondering if you were saying that progressives bailed on him, and now moderates have picked up the slack, or something.

[henrygandorf 29194]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Not sure if you guys are ready to acknowledge he pivoted but he did it successfully because he's now pushing 9-10%. 

to quote bt, "citation needed".

maybe you guys liked pete's story, and the way he expressed himself in broad, non-specific ways early on, while he was basically introducing himself to america.  and then once he narrowed in on his policy proposals, it went away from what you wanted, so you started hating him because you didn't like the specifics of his plans?  i'm not sure.

it's weird because if the above is true, i would assume i would hear more policy bashing (which i hear from bt, but nobody else).  the rest of you seem to hate him for the same reasons you liked him 6 months ago.

other than maybe prioritizing different ideas more in speeches, there hasn't been any type of noticeable pivot.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

if you were saying that progressives bailed on him, and now moderates have picked up the slack, or something.

Yes, this but not all progressives bailed on him.  I think he realized he maxed out his progressive street cred while Warren was on the rise and it would be more strategic to sell himself as the best moderate alternative to Biden.  That's why he went on offense against Warren and started saying shit like, "this is a two person race, me and Warren."   

[Hank Kingsley 20988]

The two person race comment was stupid. 

Going on "offense against Warren" is just normal campaigning in a primary. It's important to show differences between you and other candidates. He called her out for being evasive on policy by not answering questions about middle class taxes on M4A. Nothing offensive or personal there. Then she literally had to craft her specific healthcare plan to avoid middle class tax hike not to look bad. 

Is your expectation that everyone should just leave Liz alone and let her coast to the nomination? 

 

 

[henrygandorf 29194]

17 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 and started saying shit like, "this is a two person race, me and Warren."   

which, again, he didn't just come out and say it like this.  and if you listen to the whole interview, you can hear how it eventually got to this "quote".

aligning yourself with the top tier (or in this case, the front-runner) is what smart candidates do.  it's how narratives get established, and it's a pretty smart way to attack biden - by making him seem irrelevant.  biden tried to run his campaign as a general against trump from the beginning - which is his way of dismissing all other dems and establishing his narrative that it's his nomination to lose.

you say warren won't "punch down" at pete, but if pete goes on the offensive and punches up at warren, then it's omg attack!
 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

3 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

and then once he narrowed in on his policy proposals, it went away from what you wanted, so you started hating him because you didn't like the specifics of his plans?  i'm not sure.

My first impression of Pete was, "wow, this guy could be the real deal and genuinely in it for the right reason.  I want to hear more."  

Then he started punching left on single payer and that kinda did it for me.   Pete can pimp his own plan but when he starts using the language of conservative pundits to describe Bernie and Warren's plan, it's a big turnoff because I know Pete knows what he's doing and it has little to do with helping Americans get better healthcare.  My view on the plan specifics isn't nearly as important what messaging the candidates are publicly projecting because that is the most influential medium for a guy in Pete's position.  

Releasing plan specifics in a campaign isn't all about getting some law passed through congress but more about telling voters where their values are.  Pete's values are reflected in his policy ideas and for me, they come up short.  There's also the whole grossly under-qualified to be POTUS angle. 

/rant 

[David Dennison 18937]

South Carolina is going to be an eye-opener for Mayor Pete.

[tantric superman 4667]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Releasing plan specifics in a campaign isn't all about getting some law passed through congress but more about telling voters where their values are

We knew what the values were.  Releasing was to try to make sure she wasn't losing credibility.  When she actually released the plan, she lost a little credibility.

 

Is there a way to criticize Warren or Bernie without "using the language of conservative pundits"?

[tantric superman 4667]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

South Carolina is going to be an eye-opener for Mayor Pete.

They're going to dig him the most.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

12 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

It's important to show differences between you and other candidates. He called her out for being evasive on policy by not answering questions about middle class taxes on M4A.

You keep acting like I shouldn't judge candidates by the way they behave because "it's all in the game" or some shit.  Pete can play shitty cable news pundit on the campaign trail and in the debates. I can also hate him for doing it.

[David Dennison 18937]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You keep acting like I shouldn't judge candidates by the way they behave because "it's all in the game" or some shit.  Pete can play shitty cable news pundit on the campaign trail and in the debates. I can also hate him for doing it.

At this point, there's only one way I ever vote for Mayor Pete.

I don't think he's going to get the nomination, though.

 

[henrygandorf 29194]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You keep acting like I shouldn't judge candidates by the way they behave because "it's all in the game" or some shit.  Pete can play shitty cable news pundit on the campaign trail and in the debates. I can also hate him for doing it.

people were lining up to ask her about the middle class taxes for weeks before pete said anything.  i'm sure you hate steven colbert as well.  and biden, klobuchar, shit, even bernie piled on at the debate.

if pete was really the one who forced her to release details, then you're welcome.  it needed to be done.

but recently all of your "hate" sounds like middle-school nonsense.  i don't like him because he was mean to my friend!

[henrygandorf 29194]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

South Carolina is going to be an eye-opener for Mayor Pete.

why?  you think he can't read polls?  or the thousands of stories about how african americans feel about him?

at this point, south carolina is going to be an eye-opener for everyone not named biden.

[David Dennison 18937]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

why?  you think he can't read polls?  or the thousands of stories about how african americans feel about him?

at this point, south carolina is going to be an eye-opener for everyone not named biden.

It should be proof that he has no path to the nomination.

[Hank Kingsley 20988]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

At this point, there's only one way I ever vote for Mayor Pete.

 

 

Wow, that makes me feel even better about him. Thank you. 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Hank Kingsley

[David Dennison 18937]

Just now, Hank Kingsley said:

Wow, feel even better about him. Thank you. 

I like him, too.

But I'm not voting for him unless he's the nominee.

He's not going to be the nominee. Even he knows that.

[henrygandorf 29194]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It should be proof that he has no path to the nomination.

so then everyone except warren and biden should just drop out and go away?

[David Dennison 18937]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

so then everyone except warren and biden should just drop out and go away?

When it becomes obvious they have no path to the nomination, absolutely. 

South Carolina will be that day for Mayor Pete.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

4 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Is there a way to criticize Warren or Bernie without "using the language of conservative pundits"?

Sure, the best way to do it to start off by saying something like "the current healthcare system in this country is an abomination and while Warren and Bernie's plans have some of the right ideas, I believe I have a better way to get there and here is how/why..."  

[tantric superman 4667]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Sure, the best way to do it to start off by saying something like "the current healthcare system in this country is an abomination and while Warren and Bernie's plans have some of the right ideas, I believe I have a better way to get there and here is how/why..."  

So a little heavier on the "abomination" motif? 

Sounds like a goes to 11 values plan.

[David Dennison 18937]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Sure, the best way to do it to start off by saying something like "the current healthcare system in this country is an abomination and while Warren and Bernie's plans have some of the right ideas, I believe I have a better way to get there and here is how/why..."  

The current healthcare system is Obamacare, so if they come at it like that, there's gonna be a whole lot of angry Democrats.

[henrygandorf 29194]

3 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

So a little heavier on the "abomination" motif? 

Sounds like a goes to 11 values plan.

it would be a better process if each candidate outlined the proper way to go after their ideas.  kind of like a guide that other candidates could follow, in order to prevent vicious attacks like these.  we don't want any feelings getting hurt with this type of aggressive rhetoric.

[tantric superman 4667]

Damn, I'd be killing it if I had decided to run.

Chunky yet handsome Hispanic from Texas with an "Obamacare on Steroids" health plan.  

Si se puede, carnal!

[Js1 85441]

19 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

so then everyone except warren and biden should just drop out and go away?

After Super Tuesday, yes I hope so. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

31 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

people were lining up to ask her about the middle class taxes for weeks before pete said anything.  i'm sure you hate steven colbert as well.  and biden, klobuchar, shit, even bernie piled on at the debate.

if pete was really the one who forced her to release details, then you're welcome.  it needed to be done.

but recently all of your "hate" sounds like middle-school nonsense.  i don't like him because he was mean to my friend!

In fairness, it's really hard to evaluate Pete on anything but his performances because his record as an elected official is so thin. 

The guy saw a golden opportunity with Warren and he took it.  It says a lot to me about where he's willing to go to win.  Some may see that as a positive and I get that.  For me Pete came off as a petty douche bag playing to an audience, same with everyone else that was holding Warren to a standard unlike every other candidate just for some cheap soundbytes and temporary poll movement. 

 "Middle school nonsense" is an accurate description of how I see Pete's campaign.  

But that's politics in America

Edited November 11, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Hank Kingsley 20988]

10 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The guy saw a golden opportunity with Warren and he took it.  It says a lot to me about where he's willing to go to win.  Some may see that as a positive and I get that. 

By (correctly) noting she was being evasive on the middle class tax question? Is that too low a blow for you? 

It's a primary. 

 

[henrygandorf 29194]

11 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

everyone else that was holding Warren to a standard unlike every other candidate

you mean like, america?

healthcare, and how it affects taxes the middle-class pays are like 2 of the top 3 issues voters care about (even if warren has decided not to make them the centerpiece of her campaign).  this was a question she was deflecting for months, and needed to finally work out - which she did. 

there was a 1-2 month period when bernie wouldn't release his taxes.  he started getting asked about it often, then he released them.  if he still hadn't, we would still be hearing about it.

sorry that warren is doing well enough to get "front-runner scrutiny" but she is being treated completely fair.

[henrygandorf 29194]

17 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It says a lot to me about where he's willing to go to win. 

yeah, this is amazing.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Warren earned the scrutiny.  She took the hits.  Pete played the game well.  I don’t have to like him for it.  

This isn’t the only reason I dislike Pete.  He uses a lot of words to say nothing.  He talks about the failures of the past but never articulates exactly what those failures were nor does he articulate a vision of what he would do differently.  Just that he would do things differently which is apparently good enough for a lot of people because he has charisma. 

In my opinion his worldview overlooks just how bad the current crisis of Trumpism is in relation how it impacts vulnerable populations.  He’s more interested in making everyone feel like everything is going to be okay when everything is not going to be okay without a serious fight.  

Pete has a lot of good qualities but this isn’t his moment. JMO

[Hank Kingsley 20988]

 

[bad_teammate 13218]

Smartest guy in the room continues to promote as reality the urban legend that literally came from the Rambo movies.

 

[David Dennison 18937]

Mayor Pete seems to be implying that those particular veterans have never been thanked or welcomed home since their return and that he's the first person to do so.

That's just good old fashioned pandering.

[bad_teammate 13218]

David did u know that Pete went to Afghanistan?

[Hank Kingsley 20988]

Glad to see Pete brings BT & Dennison together, lol. 

 

[Hank Kingsley 20988]

On 11/11/2019 at 8:02 AM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I think people realize the failures of the Obama era while simultaneously acknowledging it’s a bad idea to throw stones at the Obama Administration while running for the 2020 Democratic nomination.  It’s perceived as punching left when you should be punching right.  Not even Bernie is going to come out and blast Obama right now. 

Too many people like playing pundit. 

Why is Warren attacking Hillary? I AM SO OFFENDED. Let's all freak out!

 

[tantric superman 4667]

20 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Smartest guy in the room continues to promote as reality the urban legend that literally came from the Rambo movies.

Reality becomes legend, and legend becomes myth.

Although sometimes it's just history.

https://www.history.com/news/vietnam-war-veterans-treatment

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by tantric superman

[tantric superman 4667]

19 hours ago, David Dennison said:

hat's just good old fashioned pandering.

No pander.  No pander.  You're the panderer.

[bad_teammate 13218]

8 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Reality becomes legend, and legend becomes myth.

Although sometimes it's just history.

https://www.history.com/news/vietnam-war-veterans-treatment

Did you read your own article? There is testimony from one guy about getting the middle finger. That's... it.

There's no doubt that some soldiers returning home were mocked, jeered, or even spit at. But this idea that Americans at home were engaged in some widespread and long-running campaign of terror against Vietnam vets is a lie. It doesn't even make any sense, because many of the people in the anti-war movement were veterans themselves.

It's absolutely stupidity with zero grounding in history.

But it plays well politically, so opportunists and nationalists serve up the lie.

[tantric superman 4667]

11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

There's no doubt that some soldiers returning home were mocked, jeered, or even spit at

Yep, and that's exactly how to read his statement.  Your attempt to contort this into some Rambo-ish nonsense, is nonsense.

 

[bad_teammate 13218]

16 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Yep, and that's exactly how to read his statement.  Your attempt to contort this into some Rambo-ish nonsense, is nonsense.

Then why did Pete make it about Vietnam and not veterans in general?

[Js1 85441]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Then why did Pete make it about Vietnam and not veterans in general?

I do make it a habit of flipping off all veterans.  If they are really old, like Korea or WW2, I try to run them over with my car.  For the ones from Afghanistan, I'm a little nicer, I just throw concrete milkshakes at them. 

[tantric superman 4667]

Assuming he ONLY spoke about Vietnam, I would assume that it is because of all the wars where there are still living veterans, Vietnam was the most divisive and there probably were more incidents of negative treatment towards returning servicemen.

 

[bad_teammate 13218]

22 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Assuming he ONLY spoke about Vietnam,

Watch the clip.

Quote

I would assume that it is because of all the wars where there are still living veterans, Vietnam was the most divisive and there probably were more incidents of negative treatment towards returning servicemen.

Probably? Based on what?

[tantric superman 4667]

Based on reports of returning vets.  You can find many of them, randomly.

.https://www.concordmonitor.com/The-treatment-of-Vietnam-veterans-10895909

I'm older than you undoubtedly, and though to young for the war, was alive and kicking when it was going on and ended.  Whether media influenced, fact influenced, or just part of the long PTSD/agent orange aftermath, it's not surprising that stories like this existed and made the rounds. 

I think you're being a bit hysterical about his comments, and seem incapable of admitting there is a factual space between instances of a thing a) not occurring at all and 2) those instances being criminally over-hyped. 

 

[Hank Kingsley 20988]

It's hilarious to see how much BT is bothered by anything re: Buttigieg. 

A whole back and forth with tantric over a 48 second clip from a 30 minute speech. 

 

[David Dennison 18937]

1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

Assuming he ONLY spoke about Vietnam, I would assume that it is because of all the wars where there are still living veterans, Vietnam was the most divisive and there probably were more incidents of negative treatment towards returning servicemen.

Black soldiers returning home from WWI and WWII notwithstanding, of course.

[bad_teammate 13218]

14 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

It's hilarious to see how much BT is bothered by anything re: Buttigieg. 

A whole back and forth with tantric over a 48 second clip from a 30 minute speech.

Is it a back and forth I'm having with myself or does your "heh, so triggered" BS apply to those who get so upset with my criticisms of Pete?

[tantric superman 4667]

Your silly criticisms of Pete.