Debt Collections Help

[Huckleberry 33,119]

Simple question, I hope. I am arguing with an ambulance company that their fees are exorbitant. Basically they sent a bill for 2-1/2 times the going rate (I compared pricing to similar services from other ambulance companies and the city). My insurance covered a reasonable portion of that cost, roughly the same amount I found the market rate to be, so they sent me a bill for the rest. I told them to stick it, essentially. They called again and I told them I'd settle for a percentage of the cost. They refused.

A month later a collections agency called. They said "we are not authorized to settle for less than the full amount" which obviously is bullshit because they had simply purchased the debt for pennies on the dollar. I also told them to stick it. None of this worries me because my credit is fine and if they want to report it then I don't give a shit.

However, the collections agency just mailed a statement to my daughter for the balance. My daughter was a minor at the time of service but has since turned 18, so I assume that's where they got the name and why they transferred it to her. So the question is this: Is it legal for them to be harassing her for a debt for which she is not responsible? I am going to coach her this evening on what to say when she calls them and want to make sure I get it right. I assume all she has to say is that she was a minor at the time of service and that she is not in any way responsible for the debt. And then when the person on the phone pesters her for information on her parents I figure that's when I'll tell her to tell them to stick it. And/or to repeat that she is not responsible for the debt and that's all she has to tell them.

Somebody in law tell me where I'm wrong. Does she assume that debt when she turns 18?

[EE2B 1,565]

We will require pics of your daughter in order to be able to adequately assess your question. /surly

[Sbbruin 21,900]

Sounds bullshit to me, but what do I know.

 

[Gil Bang 26,058]

DO NOT tell her to call.  If they call her, she should tell them that all communications must be in writing.

 

Write a letter for her signature saying that she was a minor.   Send it certified mail, and obviously, keep a copy.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Gil Bang

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,529]

I think the more you speak with them, the more they will pursue you. You have a right to never be contacted by them again, ask them where you need to mail that demand, and then never speak to them again.  Then watch both of your credit reports to understand what they report.

[DanRydell 799]

Are they coming after you/her for the full balance of the chargemaster rate (less insurance payment), or are they coming after you for the amount your insurance EOB says is your responsibility?

 

[zork 629]

9 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Simple question, I hope. I am arguing with an ambulance company that their fees are exorbitant. Basically they sent a bill for 2-1/2 times the going rate (I compared pricing to similar services from other ambulance companies and the city). My insurance covered a reasonable portion of that cost, roughly the same amount I found the market rate to be, so they sent me a bill for the rest. I told them to stick it, essentially. They called again and I told them I'd settle for a percentage of the cost. They refused.

A month later a collections agency called. They said "we are not authorized to settle for less than the full amount" which obviously is bullshit because they had simply purchased the debt for pennies on the dollar. I also told them to stick it. None of this worries me because my credit is fine and if they want to report it then I don't give a shit.

However, the collections agency just mailed a statement to my daughter for the balance. My daughter was a minor at the time of service but has since turned 18, so I assume that's where they got the name and why they transferred it to her. So the question is this: Is it legal for them to be harassing her for a debt for which she is not responsible? I am going to coach her this evening on what to say when she calls them and want to make sure I get it right. I assume all she has to say is that she was a minor at the time of service and that she is not in any way responsible for the debt. And then when the person on the phone pesters her for information on her parents I figure that's when I'll tell her to tell them to stick it. And/or to repeat that she is not responsible for the debt and that's all she has to tell them.

Somebody in law tell me where I'm wrong. Does she assume that debt when she turns 18?

I don't know if this is the same for ambulance service wrt insurance and doctor or medical facility services wrt insurance.  In the latter cases if they agree to accept the insurance they cannot charge more than that.  At least that is what United Healthcare told me when a doc in a box type organization tried what the ambulance company did.

So, it might be worth a call to your insurance provider to see if that type of relationship applies to ambulance providers?  And to confirm that the ambulance received the agreed upon rate from your insurance.

When I discussed the policy that UHC mentioned to the doc in a box they backed off.  Might not work, who knows.  My story is how I remember it happening but it was about 10 years ago.  

[Viper 12,112]

15 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

DO NOT tell her to call.  If they call her, she should tell them that all communications must be in writing.

 

Write a letter for her signature saying that she was a minor.   Send it certified mail, and obviously, keep a copy.

this is always what I've heard. I seem to remember there are some form letters for this purposes out there. Anyone have a link?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,529]

6 hours ago, zork said:

I don't know if this is the same for ambulance service wrt insurance and doctor or medical facility services wrt insurance.  In the latter cases if they agree to accept the insurance they cannot charge more than that.  At least that is what United Healthcare told me when a doc in a box type organization tried what the ambulance company did.

So, it might be worth a call to your insurance provider to see if that type of relationship applies to ambulance providers?  And to confirm that the ambulance received the agreed upon rate from your insurance.

When I discussed the policy that UHC mentioned to the doc in a box they backed off.  Might not work, who knows.  My story is how I remember it happening but it was about 10 years ago.  

 Some healthcare providers will say they accept insurance plans, but that doesn’t mean they have negotiated rates with them. They mean they will work with the insurance company in an attempt to get full payment from the ins company but once that ends, they expect the patient to make good on the remainder of the bill.  The right path is always asking the ins company to understand your coverage with that provider. 

OP- I know you can appeal some healthcare bills to the state ins board, and patients have a high success rate of winning. I don’t know about ambulance bills.

[Nueces River Rat 5,559]

Full disclosure- I'm not a Lawyer, not do I play one on TV.  

Is this a private ambulance company contracted by a municipality?   I'll just say from my experience in the health care sector, some of these ambulance companies are shady outfits.   In other words some of their owners and other key employees have ended up in a local Club Fed for some of their business practices,  especially when dealing with Medicare/ Medicaid.  Go visit a local junk or repo yard and you may see some ambulances from these defunct companies sitting there 

First I would find out from the insurance company if they had a contract  and if so, get it in writing what their negotiated rates are with the ambulance company.  You should be liable for your cost only as spelled out in your summary of benefits.   The jackals at the ambulance company can't come around and add crap after the fact and if they have a contract with your insurance, you need to make them aware of it with all the documentation you have at hand.   Nor can they make your daughter liable for the cost because, she was under the legal age where a contract can be legally binding.   

But it might be worth a few bucks to have an attorney write a simple letter to both the ambulance company and their asshole like collection agency and tell them to prove the charges (where they are allowed to collect over what the insurance company reimbursed)  or pound sand.  And if they screw with your credit record (or daughters for that matter)  they will be liable for damages including the possibility of renaming the ambulance company Huckleberry EMS.  

 

[Jkwellborn 6,750]

We will require pics of your daughter in order to be able to adequately assess your question. /surly

First post nails it and shit. This place seldom disappoints.

[Gene Parmesan 4,016]

Assuming it's all legit and you have no legit recourse to tell them where to stick it, but you still want to stick to your guns.  What kind of credit damage would you be looking at?

[Huckleberry 33,119]

Thanks for all the assistance guys. I will make sure to take the written communication advice.

Regarding some of the questions above, my sole concern in this right now is making sure the debt does not stay associated with my daughter. I'm perfectly willing to be an asshole and fight as long as necessary but she was stressed as hell when she checked the mail and read the letter. Of course it didn't help that the stupid hospital accounts department had sent her a bill for $27,000 for something recently (we actually owe nothing on the procedure as it had been pre-approved with insurance, everything was settled up front, etc.) which nearly caused a genuine panic attack before we were able to convince her not to worry about it. She was crying already and was about to lose it.

On the bright side, my oldest has learned that adulting is hard.

The amount in question is roughly $1,500. For a similar ride length (<5 miles) and services provided (they gave her smelling salts as she was getting in the ambulance, other than that they were a chauffer) I shopped around and found that $1,200 was a reasonable rate. That's also roughly how much my insurance covered. I will be following up with them to see if they had a contract with the ambulance company. Thanks again.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,229]

If you have an 18 year-old daughter I am sure there is some way you can work something out with the debt collectors.

Bow chicka, bow, chicka, bow, chicka, bow...

[Bat Guano 359]

"I am not responsible for that debt. Do not call me again."

That's all she has to say. Then she hangs up.

 

Edit: This worked for me in a similar situation, i.e., a debt from a family member for which I was not responsible. There were a number of collection agencies that were calling, and usually after I said that they said, OK, we won't call again. Or they said nothing; but in both cases they did, indeed, stop calling.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Bat Guano

[Viper 12,112]

I found the form letters here

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/what-should-i-do-when-a-debt-collector-contacts-me-en-1695/

The following sample letters will help if you’re experiencing common problems that may come up with debt collectors.

• I do not owe this debt .
• I need more information about this debt .
• I want the debt collector to stop contacting me .
• I want the debt collector to only contact me through my lawyer .
• I want to specify how the debt collector can contact me .

If you use any of these letters, it’s important to do so as soon as possible after you’re first contacted, and to keep copies of any letters you send. In certain situations, you only have 30 days after you’re contacted to ask for certain information, but even if more than 30 days pass, it’s still a good idea to ask for what you need.

[Sbbruin 21,900]

2 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

On the bright side, my oldest has learned that adulting is hard.

 

My kids desperately need to learn this lesson, even though they are teens.  Every year is going to be harder than the last, at least for the next 25 or so.

[Nueces River Rat 5,559]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

My kids desperately need to learn this lesson, even though they are teens.  Every year is going to be harder than the last, at least for the next 25 or so.

Same here.   It gets harder when one of them gets close to college graduation.  

He will do so next Spring and I'm trying to figure out a way to break the news to him that once he finds a job,   he's off my payroll.  I guess one month he will have  to assume his cell phone cost, the next it will be his car insurance,  etc.   And boy I am jumping for joy for the car insurance one because it will be just in time for my youngest to start driving.  I couldn't imagine my premium with three teenage/ young 20 something drivers.  

[pacman 7,375]

I don't believe that is lawful.

FDCPA: Unfair practices [15 USC 1692f] A debt collector may not use unfair or unconscionable means to collect or attempt to collect any debt. Without limiting the general application of the foregoing, the following conduct is a violation of this section: (1) The collection of any amount (including any interest, fee, charge, or expense incidental to the principal obligation) unless such amount is expressly authorized by the agreement creating the debt or permitted by law.

As parent, the only agreement they possibly could have would be between you and the ambulance company.

https://blog.credit.com/2012/12/medical-bills-and-minors-what-you-need-to-know-63624/

[ROFL BOX 6,649]

This deep into it & no Shag lawyer commentary so far?  What a ripoff.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,229]

1 hour ago, ROFL BOX said:

This deep into it & no Shag lawyer commentary so far?  What a ripoff.

No kidding.  It's an actual case of "ambulance chasing" and the surly legal mafia is conspicuously silent.

[Jkwellborn 6,750]

No kidding.  It's an actual case of "ambulance chasing" and the surly legal mafia is conspicuously silent.

Hits close to home and such.

[Llano Estacado 1,257]

An ambulance hit your home?!?

[SDG 3,319]

5 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

This deep into it & no Shag lawyer commentary so far?  What a ripoff.

They’re waiting for pics of course. They don’t work for free.  

[Lidig8r 1,874]

I used to do a ton of FDCPA defense work. Was admitted pro hac vice in over 20 federal courts outside of Texas to defend these types of cases.

Just from your brief description, I see at least 3 to 4 FDCPA violations along with the attendant Texas Finance Code violations.

Violation of the FDCPA is max statutory damages of $1000 plus mandatory attorney's fees.

In negotiating the ambulance bill as part of the settlement, you emphasize it was never a legitimate bill to begin with so they don't hit you with a 1099 saying the amount you are not having to pay constitutes income.

[Dbeasy 15,135]

This deep into it & no Shag lawyer commentary so far?  What a ripoff.

Let’s me take a shot at this. I live down the street from one.

Have you considered standing in the middle of the mall and shouting “I declare bankruptcy”?

[scottsins 1,980]

Simple question, I hope. I am arguing with an ambulance company that their fees are exorbitant. Basically they sent a bill for 2-1/2 times the going rate (I compared pricing to similar services from other ambulance companies and the city). My insurance covered a reasonable portion of that cost, roughly the same amount I found the market rate to be, so they sent me a bill for the rest. I told them to stick it, essentially. They called again and I told them I'd settle for a percentage of the cost. They refused. A month later a collections agency called. They said "we are not authorized to settle for less than the full amount" which obviously is bullshit because they had simply purchased the debt for pennies on the dollar. I also told them to stick it. None of this worries me because my credit is fine and if they want to report it then I don't give a shit.

However, the collections agency just mailed a statement to my daughter for the balance. My daughter was a minor at the time of service but has since turned 18, so I assume that's where they got the name and why they transferred it to her. So the question is this: Is it legal for them to be harassing her for a debt for which she is not responsible? I am going to coach her this evening on what to say when she calls them and want to make sure I get it right. I assume all she has to say is that she was a minor at the time of service and that she is not in any way responsible for the debt. And then when the person on the phone pesters her for information on her parents I figure that's when I'll tell her to tell them to stick it. And/or to repeat that she is not responsible for the debt and that's all she has to tell them.

Somebody in law tell me where I'm wrong. Does she assume that debt when she turns 18?

 

 

Send the collections agency a “cease comm” letter, then wait and see what happens. The agency will be out of the equation (again). The ambulance company may continue to call after that. If they do, tell them to kick rocks. They’ll either leave y’all alone or file a lawsuit, which is cake.

 

This may seem like a major hassle, but it’s better than trying to “reason” with them and “persuade” them into the correct action.

 

Currently, the math is easy for them. They need to know that it will cost them something to go any further. Right now, this is no skin off of their back. Make them work and see what their demand is.

[pops 7,007]

Call Lobo. 

[Seasick Sailor 3,747]

On 4/3/2019 at 7:21 AM, pops said:

Call Lobo. 

This is the right answer.