Vice President tells NASA to get to the Moon in 5 years.

[RockyMountainHighHorn 929]

I woke up this morning excited to watch this coverage and see this awesome sight. Turned on the first news station on my guide-cnn- and all they were talking about was Lindsey graham and trump. Then fox, same thing but at least a small video in the corner of the rocket. Then msnbc..don’t get me started. I know they eventually switched over to it but it’s sad that major news stations can’t get over politics for an hour while an effin awesome rocket was supposed to travel to the moon. Doesn’t matter who you support, show some actual news, we know this trump..thing will be there tomorrow. 

[Captainant 28596]

2 minutes ago, RockyMountainHighHorn said:

Doesn’t matter who you support, show some actual news, we know this trump..thing will be there tomorrow. 

In fairness, the SLS launch will be there tomorrow as well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: also some of the YouTube coverage is truly professional quality. Everyday Astronaut does fantastic mission coverage and background videos on all things space flight. I'd go there over broadcast any day

Edited August 29, 2022 by Captainant

[immamac 44414]

1 minute ago, RockyMountainHighHorn said:

I woke up this morning excited to watch this coverage and see this awesome sight. Turned on the first news station on my guide-cnn- and all they were talking about was Lindsey graham and trump. Then fox, same thing but at least a small video in the corner of the rocket. Then msnbc..don’t get me started. I know they eventually switched over to it but it’s sad that major news stations can’t get over politics for an hour while an effin awesome rocket was supposed to travel to the moon. Doesn’t matter who you support, show some actual news, we know this trump..thing will be there tomorrow. 

ABC News Live is your friend. Stop watching that other garbage. 

[RockyMountainHighHorn 929]

1 minute ago, immamac said:

ABC News Live is your friend. Stop watching that other garbage. 

Oh I know there are better options, point I was trying to make was that it’s sad that most people just want to turn on any news station and see news about this momentous event yet it’s just political talk with small updates on the rocket. Should be the other way around. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 5005]

1 hour ago, RamjetFDO said:

Scrubs happen.  We had these during Shuttle, too... but what's worrying to me is that it seams to be in the same area that they had issues with during the wet rehearsal.  If that's the case, then it points to either not understanding the problem, not correctly fixing the problem, or having a systemic issue that's going to keep popping up regardless of what "fix" is applied - and that worries me a bit.

While Friday, 9/4 is the next *opportunity*, it'll completely depend on what the issue is and whether it's a "fix/resolve on the pad" or "roll it back" resolution.  "Roll it back" will probably be weeks-to-months before the next chance.  They're leaving the stack tanked/semi-pressurized for now to gather more data.

More later, I'm sure.

Four more years, baby!

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

16 minutes ago, RockyMountainHighHorn said:

Oh I know there are better options, point I was trying to make was that it’s sad that most people just want to turn on any news station and see news about this momentous event yet it’s just political talk with small updates on the rocket. Should be the other way around. 

All the networks dumped us. One said we made going to the moon as exciting as taking a trip to Pittsburgh. 

[atomheartbevo 90670]

27 minutes ago, RockyMountainHighHorn said:

Oh I know there are better options, point I was trying to make was that it’s sad that most people just want to turn on any news station and see news about this momentous event yet it’s just political talk with small updates on the rocket. Should be the other way around. 

When there are people on the rocket, everybody will be covering it.

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Hell they still haven't really completed a full wet rehearsal

i was following eric berger on twitter in bed

his followers called it insantly: no WDR after the last leaks were repaired = guaranteed scrub

started my normal day at 7:15 thanks to eric despite NASA being cromulent with the news drip to the MSM

this EXACT SAME MISSION PROFILE could be flown with a falcon heavy and a falcon 9 by docking the orion pieces for TLI

Mr. Boeing is no longer Joe Petroni's hero

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

/sarc

 

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

press conference in 5 minutes

[Captainant 28596]

here's an unlocked NYT link (thanks /r/nasa lol) that details the scrub a little better:

Quote

Mike Sarafin, the Artemis I mission manager, said that the technical issues previously described combined with a problem with a vent valve and weather issues later in the launch window would’ve made liftoff a no-go on Monday.

“We felt like today was the right thing to do,” said Jim Free, a NASA associate administrator, addressing whether the agency should have done more rehearsals before trying to launch. He added, “We’re not going to have all the implications and data today.”

“We’re preserving the option for Friday,” Mr. Sarafin said in response to a reporter’s question, suggesting NASA wanted to retry a launch in 96 hours. He added that the problem is not with the engine but with the bleed system to get the engine to the right temperature. Mr. Sarafin later said there was a “nonzero chance” of a Friday launch, but he wouldn’t say how likely it was be to happen.

Got dang boeing valves have delayed this ship so many times!

[Armybrat 41436]

9 hours ago, RamjetFDO said:

Scrubs happen.  We had these during Shuttle, too... but what's worrying to me is that it seams to be in the same area that they had issues with during the wet rehearsal.  If that's the case, then it points to either not understanding the problem, not correctly fixing the problem, or having a systemic issue that's going to keep popping up regardless of what "fix" is applied - and that worries me a bit.

While Friday, 9/4 is the next *opportunity*, it'll completely depend on what the issue is and whether it's a "fix/resolve on the pad" or "roll it back" resolution.  "Roll it back" will probably be weeks-to-months before the next chance.  They're leaving the stack tanked/semi-pressurized for now to gather more data.

More later, I'm sure.

Saw a lot of scrubs in the early days, and too many of these…

 

[Upgrayedd 5916]

17 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Saw a lot of scrubs in the early days, and too many of these…

 

My great uncle claimed to have destroyed more Atlas rockets than anyone on the planet.  He pressed the destruction button when the started flying off course.  Allegedly.

[YGIFS 19458]

So most sites agreeing that "launch window" is 1148hrs-CDT.  But is that the start of the window, the end of the window, or the specific launch time?  

[RamjetFDO 10655]

So most sites agreeing that "launch window" is 1148hrs-CDT.  But is that the start of the window, the end of the window, or the specific launch time?  

Ah launch windows... this can be a ridiculously complex subject or really easy. Unless you have the constraints for what defines the window, you really don't know.

For this mission, though... the opening of the window is as good as the end. There are ranges of ignition times for the TLI burn (Trans-Lunar Injection) that all provide acceptable trajectories from a timing and/or performance standpoint.

For "ground up" rendezvous (flying to ISS, retrieving a satellite, etc. ), the window is much shorter, ranging from "it has to be now or not at all" to maybe 9-10 minutes if you have a performance vehicle like the Shuttle with lots of ascent planar steering. In that case, your *optimum* time is usually closer to the middle of the window.

[YGIFS 19458]

So like I asked the Lunar Shuttle guy....."how long is my parking good for?"

Also, what's the fastest land animal?

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/08/warning-sign-nasa-never-finished-a-fueling-test-before-todays-sls-launch-attempt/

eric could probably come up with the answer to this question:

if they just built brand new RS-25E (expendable) engines what would that have cost vs. the 3 billion spent to store and rehab the last 20 engines from the shuttle program?

[Captainant 28596]

8 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/08/warning-sign-nasa-never-finished-a-fueling-test-before-todays-sls-launch-attempt/

eric could probably come up with the answer to this question:

if they just built brand new RS-25E (expendable) engines what would that have cost vs. the 3 billion spent to store and rehab the last 20 engines from the shuttle program?

Shit, a raptor 2 ($1M price tag) puts out 2.3MN of thrust to the RS25's ($40m price tag) 2.25MN of thrust, and you don't have the headaches of cryogenic hydrogen to grapple with. It was a mistake to go with the RS25'S not to mention their cost and complexity, they put an incredible number of design constraints on your rocket - hell they had to plumb the LOX line externally because it would otherwise get frozen by the LH2! 

Granted, raptor 2 didn't even exist when SLS was kicked off, but that's kind of my point. NASA has tied a millstone around its neck trying to eke out some value from leftover hardware and it's completely compromised their ability to send humans to space again. Were it not for spaceX, the west wouldn't have a way to get to space anymore! Just ridiculous that NASA isn't innovating any more on rocket design, despite burning $23,000,000,000 and counting on SLS 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Captainant

[RPM 26674]

This SLS looks more and more like a government operation especially after reading that Houston Chronicle writer's piece.

Edited August 30, 2022 by RPM

[Radical Larry 28826]

[atomheartbevo 90670]

At least my kids can watch it get delayed again.

[immamac 44414]

You guys can talk all the shit you want, you better eat crow when this mother fucker flies to the moon and back. 

[Sbbruin 22146]

[atomheartbevo 90670]

10 minutes ago, immamac said:

You guys can talk all the shit you want, you better eat crow when this mother fucker flies to the moon and back. 

Gladly.

[RamjetFDO 10655]

You guys can talk all the shit you want, you better eat crow when this mother fucker flies to the moon and back. 

Parts of it, anyway.

[Captainant 28596]

13 hours ago, immamac said:

You guys can talk all the shit you want, you better eat crow when this mother fucker flies to the moon and back. 

Man I fucking hope so! Still not clearing a full wet run through of their start sequence is a bit of a concern, as are the ongoing Boeing Reliability™ issues with valves. 

I'll eat all the crow I can when the Orion capsule is orbiting the moon, but it bears repeating how off the rails NASA is with this timeline. They haven't even completed a dress rehearsal, much less a full flight, and want to put people on Artemis II?? That's supposed to fly in 2024? When the original launch date for Artemis I was supposed to be sometime in 2016?

I want NASA to succeed, but the Artemis program has to run the table to have a happy ending at this point. It's existence was more of a "FU" from Congress to the President at the time it was created, and it's been incredibly successful as a jobs program, but it's comes at too high of an opportunity cost. Hell, putting a rover on Mars only costed $2.7B - just this Artemis launch is at $4B and counting. And it's just a test flight!

[RamjetFDO 10655]

I'm starting to get a little uneasy with the launch decision-making that's going on.

The Wet Dress Rehearsal (WDR) recently conducted did *not* include the RS-25 "engine chill" test - which is what scrubbed Monday's attempt.  I've heard "reliable sources" on the inside say it was not performed, because those tests had already been done "on the test stand".  Notice that does NOT mean "on the launch vehicle configuration"... so they rolled the dice and lost.

I've already mentioned that these are a new configuration for these previously-flown engines - especially with regard to the pre-launch regenerative cooling process.  Those engine bells need to be cooled substantially by pumping liquid H2 through the pipes surrounding the engine bells both pre-ignition and during powered-flight or your run significant risks of burn-throughs or RUDs.  Bypassing a critical path (and a new config to boot) on a WDR is a "Very Bad Choice".  They're literally crossing fingers it works.  So far, they're 0-for-1.

The other new issue I've just heard about is that the SRBs were stacked almost two years ago (including a never-before-flown additional segment configuration)... and they have a two-year "fly by" date that expires in November.

Could the SRB stack date be contributing a bit to the "GO fever" that people are starting to wonder about?  Let's just say, I'm sure it's in several people's thought process - even if it's not a launch constraint *yet*, the calendar is getting smaller and in a hurry.  Plus, rumors are that the KSC launch prep teams are getting pretty worn down.

But, for all this pessimism... I'm definitely looking forward to this BDR flying successfully, even if Saturday's Wx forecast is only about 40% go at this point.

[RamjetFDO 10655]

Now hearing that the KSC team's possible solution is to begin the chill-down of the RS-25s earlier than planned in the countdown, in order to get to the launch commit criteria value prior to T-0.  

If the valve is having issues with flowrate in a 1G static platform, I do have concerns about what it's going to do under 3G loading in powered-flight conditions.

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/08/nasa-will-make-second-attempt-to-launch-the-sls-rocket-on-saturday/

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

@RamjetFDO they are actually 0-5 on WDRs, or 0-4 on WDRs and 0-1 on whatever Monday was

[YGIFS 19458]

I haz much confuse.  So we're not going to the Moon on Friday?  FUCK!  I got my haircut and everything. 

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

in eric's article this morning they claim it was a bad sensor and they really truly believe #3 was actually chilled

 

also, @Captainant $4B is nowhere close to the real number spent thus far on all legacy repurposing of STS technology

dating back 3 decades, it is somewhere north of $75B

[RamjetFDO 10655]

7 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

in eric's article this morning they claim it was a bad sensor and they really truly believe #3 was actually chilled

 

That rationale (of the NASA SLS program manager) is truly a clown-show of pretty decent-sized proportions.

Claiming the sensor wasn't working because the "physics of the situation" (direct quote) SEEMS TO IMPLY that things were working just fine ... yeah.  That's not going to hold water in front of a review board if something happens.  

Hay-zoos marimba.

[Captainant 28596]

12 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

in eric's article this morning they claim it was a bad sensor and they really truly believe #3 was actually chilled

 

also, @Captainant $4B is nowhere close to the real number spent thus far on all legacy repurposing of STS technology

dating back 3 decades, it is somewhere north of $75B

Jeeze, I knew the Artemis program had burned ~$23B so far in budget but hadn't considered other attempts to repurpose STS like Ares. Although I don't think it's repurposing STS so much as keeping the jobs in those districts that built the STS parts

[YGIFS 19458]

somebody just tell me what time to get these back from the dry cleaners:

 

[RamjetFDO 10655]

Well, I guess Halloween's sorted this year.

[YGIFS 19458]

I'm so bummed out that you didn't own a pair already.  I guess I just assumed.  

Speaking of assumptions, go/no go on Friday or Saturday?  

[RamjetFDO 10655]

41 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Speaking of assumptions, go/no go on Friday or Saturday?  

 

Friday - NO GO, because they're not even trying that day. 

Saturday - I'd say 75% NO GO, because of (1) Wx being dodgy on any Florida summer afternoon and (2) they haven't addressed the root cause of the H2 issue yet and are just rolling the dice that an early flow will do anything.  

 

Hope I'm wrong and just being Captain Pessimism.  Regardless of the price tag, this is going to be a visual spectacle.

[YGIFS 19458]

wife also said it's no-go to try on Friday as well because she's ovulating and we're too old for a third.  
What were we talking about?  Oh yeah, space.  

If it's no-go on Saturday, when's the next window?  I read different dates at different sites but lord knows you've forgotten more NASA shit than I'll learn in ten lifetimes.  

[RamjetFDO 10655]

26 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

wife also said it's no-go to try on Friday as well because she's ovulating and we're too old for a third.  
What were we talking about?  Oh yeah, space.  

If it's no-go on Saturday, when's the next window?  I read different dates at different sites but lord knows you've forgotten more NASA shit than I'll learn in ten lifetimes.  

The short answer is "it depends".  The long answer is "it depends".

 

It depends on what the issue was that scrubbed the launch.  If Wx, that's an easier turn-around.  If it's a systems failure, then it's whether it can be resolved on the pad or a roll-back.  And if a roll-back, does that now mean a complete destack/demate and restack (because of the SRB stack limitations)?

See?  "It depends".

If you want to see when opportunities for even *considering* a launch are available - here ya go: Artemis I Mission Availability (PDF) 

From the source: 

There are four primary parameters that dictate launch availability within these periods. These key constraints are unique to the Artemis I mission and future launch availability beyond this flight will be determined based on capabilities and trajectories unique to each mission. 

1. The launch day must account for the Moon's position in its lunar cycle so that the SLS rocket’s upper stage can time the trans-lunar injection burn with enough performance to successfully intercept the "on ramp" for the lunar distant retrograde orbit. The more powerful Exploration Upper Stage on future configurations of the rocket will enable daily, or near-daily, launch opportunities to the Moon, depending on the orbit desired. 
2. The resulting trajectory for a given day must ensure Orion is not in darkness for more than 90 minutes at a time so that the solar array wings can receive and convert sunlight to electricity and the spacecraft can maintain an optimal temperature range. Mission planners eliminate potential launch dates that would send Orion into extended eclipses during the flight. This constraint requires knowledge of the Earth, Moon, and Sun along the planned mission trajectory path before the mission ever occurs, as well as an understanding of the Orion spacecraft’s battery state of charge before entering an eclipse. 
3. The launch date must support a trajectory that allows for the skip entry technique planned during Orion’s return to Earth. A skip entry is a maneuver in which the spacecraft dips into the upper part of Earth’s atmosphere and use that atmosphere, along with the lift of the capsule, to simultaneously slow down and skip back out of the atmosphere, then reenter for final descent and splashdown. The technique allows engineers to pinpoint Orion’s splashdown location and on future missions will help lower the aerodynamic breaking loads astronauts inside the spacecraft will experience, and maintain the spacecraft’s structural loads within design limits.  
4. The launch date must support daylight conditions for Orion’s splashdown to initially assist recovery personnel when they locate, secure, and retrieve the spacecraft from the Pacific Ocean.  

 

[thunderlounge 8464]

Guess we should be thankful there are no people flying on this one. Wow. 
 

On 8/30/2022 at 12:16 AM, Hagbard Celine said:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/08/warning-sign-nasa-never-finished-a-fueling-test-before-todays-sls-launch-attempt/

eric could probably come up with the answer to this question:

if they just built brand new RS-25E (expendable) engines what would that have cost vs. the 3 billion spent to store and rehab the last 20 engines from the shuttle program?

 

They did a Raytheon Reset on the SLS. 
 

Funny shit. 

[Captainant 28596]

The LH2 flow problem is very concerning, since if there's insufficient flow through the bell to cool it, there's almost certainly going to be insufficient flow to the combustion chamber to produce the designed thrust. It's not clear if the problem was on the core or the engine, but fuel flowing through the nozzle is part of its core operational cycle - those thin braised tubes that are the main combustion chamber would RUD very quickly if they weren't flowing enough cryogenic LH2.

But honestly. It's ridiculous to be using such a temperamental fuel as LH2 if you aren't going to be reusing the engine. The main selling point of LH2 was that it burned perfectly cleanly and had no issues with coking so it was well suited to STS's reusability mission - but if we're just throwing em away, much more forgiving and less limiting fuel cycle options are available.

[RamjetFDO 10655]

Saturday Wx improving now to 60% GO at the open and 80% GO at the end of the launch window.

 

Still raising a slightly-concerned eyebrow at the "just flow the H2 earlier" and cross your fingers plan ... they're also rationalizing away the issue and hoping that (1) understanding of the (newly configured) system and (2) relying on sensors that are indirectly measuring the situation will get them through launching this beast.

Honestly - "good luck" to them.  I hope it works.

Here's the cool flight infographic if you haven't seen it lately:

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

not that i'm hoping for it, but on the outside chance it happens, the phrase "wickwick event" already has an entry in the urban dictionary, and should it come to pass, will quickly spread like wildfire (pun intended) in larger geek community

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

ramjet rep for the wx chart - is that publicly published or insider only?

[RamjetFDO 10655]

48 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

ramjet rep for the wx chart - is that publicly published or insider only?

https://www.patrick.spaceforce.mil/About-Us/Weather/

I used to work with these guys (45th Wx) all the time during Shuttle missions - really awesome teams.

Edited September 2, 2022 by RamjetFDO

[RamjetFDO 10655]

51 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

not that i'm hoping for it, but on the outside chance it happens, the phrase "wickwick event" already has an entry in the urban dictionary, and should it come to pass, will quickly spread like wildfire (pun intended) in larger geek community

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu....  that's a lose-lose scenario right there.  Ugh.

[CycleTex87 3044]

I’m riding bikes in the morning with a buddy who flew on the STS a couple times. Will hit him up for some thoughts on this mission at coffee. 

[Hagbard Celine 11285]

2 hours ago, CycleTex87 said:

I’m riding bikes in the morning with a buddy who flew on the STS a couple times. Will hit him up for some thoughts on this mission at coffee. 

john blaha by chance?

[RamjetFDO 10655]

I’m riding bikes in the morning with a buddy who flew on the STS a couple times. Will hit him up for some thoughts on this mission at coffee. 

Name? I might know him... pm if you don't want it public.