Things seem to be going quite well for Joe Biden

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

Lol at making fun of Joe’s gaffes.  That coming from Trump supporters definitely hurts.  How stupid are these people?  
 

Oh, they’re Gary Johnson voters?  Carry on.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

21 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Good one.

Actually no, a great one.  

[JimmyJames 12271]

So let me get this straight. The trumpkin troll talking points against Biden are gonna be (1) he's old and getting senile, (2) likes to grab and sexually harass women and (3) has corrupt dealings with foreign governments. Well ok then. Sounds like a bold strategy Cotten. 

Next thing they should accuse him of is playing too much golf in Florida resorts he owns and marrying a Russian hooker mail order bride.

[bad_teammate 13132]

- "He voted for NAFTA, the worst trade deal ever, and he even still defends it. Me? I just passed the best trade deal, such a great deal even the Democrats agreed. Even loony Pocahontas who hates me agreed it was a great deal. Across the aisle, everyone agrees with my trade deal. Unlike NAFTA which destroyed the factories."

- "He voted for the Iraq War, which I was against, and was a huge mistake. And I avoid wars, unlike Joe I don't want to invade every other country and start wars. That war started so many terror groups and built ISIS, who I defeated because of a war Joe started."

- "He wrote the terrible and racist crime bill that I have overturned. I helped get people out of prison who never should have been in prison but were because of his racist crime bill."

- "He wants to cut Social Security and Medicare and I want to protect it. For years and years as an ineffective senator and with Obama he tried to cut Medicare and Social Security. I will protect it."

But yes ALSO the things you just said.

[Jester 382]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

- "He voted for NAFTA, the worst trade deal ever, and he even still defends it. Me? I just passed the best trade deal, such a great deal even the Democrats agreed. Even loony Pocahontas who hates me agreed it was a great deal. Across the aisle, everyone agrees with my trade deal. Unlike NAFTA which destroyed the factories."

- "He voted for the Iraq War, which I was against, and was a huge mistake. And I avoid wars, unlike Joe I don't want to invade every other country and start wars. That war started so many terror groups and built ISIS, who I defeated because of a war Joe started."

- "He wrote the terrible and racist crime bill that I have overturned. I helped get people out of prison who never should have been in prison but were because of his racist crime bill."

- "He wants to cut Social Security and Medicare and I want to protect it. For years and years as an ineffective senator and with Obama he tried to cut Medicare and Social Security. I will protect it."

But yes ALSO the things you just said.

Ok, now do Trump.  But put that shit in a spoiler because it's gonna be long.

[hobbes2702 12834]

7 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Actually no, a great one.  

Anyone who thinks this is simply ignoring facts. 

[G650 14106]

Sounds to me like things are going pretty well for Joe Biden at the moment.

[JimmyJames 12271]

All lies that only Trumpkins will believe. 
 

Joe Biden, like most of the Republican Party and a lot of the Democratic Party over the last 40 years, has voted for some terrible shit. But the truth is, that terrible shit was supported by a lot of the voters, both Republicans and Democrats. It’s often a representatives job to pass what his voters want. 
 

The crime bill? People forget how bad crime was in the 80s and early 90s. Congress gave the voters what they wanted and in fact demanded as crime was the highest priority issue at the time, despite the terrible consequences. 
 

The Iraq war? The American people supported it. Sure it was because the bush administration lied about it.  But that wasn’t revealed until it was too late. 
 

NAFTA? The American people supported that too. Should have listened to Boss Ross Perot instead.

The bankruptcy bill? I’m not gonna try to defend that one. That, like NAFTA, just shows how much power corporations and banks have in this country. 
 

The Baby boomers wanted all that crap. They got it. And we’re “reaping the whirlwind” because of it. Blame them. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by JimmyJames

[G650 14106]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

The American people supported that too.

They still do.

[bad_teammate 13132]

42 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

All lies that only Trumpkins will believe.

Whistling past the graveyard.

It's not just about MAGA people, it's about those who are disengaged or cynical.

Pay attention to how Trump is really targeting the black vote right now. He doesn't need to win it. All he needs to do is turn 2-3% Republican and then keep 5+% home and he wins. It's why he pushes black unemployment #s and the First Step Act.

We mock this at our peril. His operation took a joke candidacy and turned it into a presidency.

42 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Joe Biden, like most of the Republican Party and a lot of the Democratic Party over the last 40 years, has voted for some terrible shit. But the truth is, that terrible shit was supported by a lot of the voters, both Republicans and Democrats. It’s often a representatives job to pass what his voters want. 

Not really a fun sales job in a general election where you've got millions of unengaged voters and while attempting to persuade young activists to jump in.

"Oh yeah I voted for a ton of terrible crap, but it was cool at the time! You see I'm not a very visionary person or a good, brave leader. I'm kind of a go-along type. Which is... what you want right?"

Quote

The crime bill? People forget how bad crime was in the 80s and early 90s. Congress gave the voters what they wanted and in fact demanded as crime was the highest priority issue at the time, despite the terrible consequences. 

No need to forget if you're only 35 years old and never were even aware of those times.

Quote

The Iraq war? The American people supported it. Sure it was because the bush administration lied about it.  But that wasn’t revealed until it was too late. 

We knew it was a lie at the time. If you believed that at the time it's a bad sign for your judgement. But again, "I believed lies that millions and millions and millions of others didn't believe." is not a great sell.

Quote

NAFTA? The American people supported that too. Should have listened to Boss Ross Perot instead.

See above. It's not like it wasn't said ahead of time that it was shit.

I'm just seeing 2016 again where we spend the entire primary season rationalizing away all the massive red flags and shouting down the people pointing them out.

So do we just eliminate everyone with a laundry list of terrible votes? Actually yes, we fucking do. We had SO MUCH TO CHOOSE FROM but we got this.

So how do we get out of it?

I've got ideas on that, but a terrible idea is moral scolding and shaming. If someone says, "I don't want to vote for someone who pushed a racist crime bill" the response isn't "Well how dare you I guess you love Donald Trump you rapist-lover!"

Joe needs to give us a good response. If he wants to pay me to come up with them I can help, but I don't think he's capable.

And repeat for all the other shit.

Quote

The Baby boomers wanted all that crap. They got it. And we’re “reaping the whirlwind” because of it. Blame them. 

Oh it ain't just them. Gen X skateboard guy and near-millenial Mayor Goodboy couldn't fucking wait to jump in and juice the old man with the godawful track record because their hero Obama asked them to.

It's a Baby Boomer/Gen X hybrid clusterfucking.

Edited March 5, 2020 by bad_teammate

[staboner 4958]

goddammit biden is gonna win the heisman now

[bad_teammate 13132]

Biden's healthcare plan is stupid and bad!? WHO KNEW!?!?

Holy fuck it says he hopes to cover 97% of Americans.

Fuck every single one of you imbeciles who voted for this guy. Seriously and personally, fuck you.

People are going to die.

You care more about how nice people are to you online than whether or not poor people live. You're scum. You're shit.

Edited March 5, 2020 by bad_teammate

[bad_teammate 13132]

The "fuck you" applies to those of you who know better (i.e., anyone who posts here).

The vast majority of Biden voters? They have no idea.

2016: "Oh man Donald Trump he's famous as hell!!" *pounds voting button*

2020: "Oh man Joe Biden he's Barack Obama's friend!" *pounds voting button*

[mdmost 42865]

Is this the anger stage?

[G650 14106]

I wonder if he has finally short circuited

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

I wonder if he has finally short circuited

Apparently not. Haven’t seen Hugo in awhile though. Maybe one has a better longer lasting contact.

Thats a joke btw. I think...

[bad_teammate 13132]

4 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Is this the anger stage?

If you mean "... of realizing Sanders is going to lose" then no. I was at acceptance Tuesday night. That's not the point.

If you mean "... of realizing that people who have pretended to be progressives don't actually care about anything important" then yes, it pisses me off when the grand plan for the Democratic Party is to let tens of thousands of people die for lack of healthcare. It makes me mad. It triggers me.

I am owned and crying big leftist tears and you have owned me. Congratulations.

If you voted for Joe Biden, does it bother you at all that his grand vision dream for America is 10M uninsured people?

[bad_teammate 13132]

Shag centrists when policy discussion about the lives of millions of Americans starts:

Shag centrists when a Bernie Bro posts a snake emoji on Twitter:

[G650 14106]

I mean, I'm for universal coverage and I voted for Biden so I have no idea wtf you are on about.

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

I mean, I'm for universal coverage and I voted for Biden so I have no idea wtf you are on about.

Joe Biden issues

As president, Biden will stop this reversal of the progress made by Obamacare. And he won’t stop there. He’ll also build on the Affordable Care Act with a plan to insure more than an estimated 97% of Americans.

Good work, bud!

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

I mean, I'm for universal coverage and I voted for Biden so I have no idea wtf you are on about.

He’s short circuiting.  

[G650 14106]

So your position is if the Democratic Congress passes a universal healthcare bill, Biden vetoes it?

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, G650 said:

So your position is if the Democratic Congress passes a universal healthcare bill, Biden vetoes it?

This is honestly sad.

My position is that Joe Biden will not push for universal healthcare and will be perfectly happy with Congress promoting a bill that is not universal healthcare. He will not expend political capital to get to 100%, will see tens of thousands die, and say, "Good enough!"

[G650 14106]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This is honestly sad.

My position is that Joe Biden will not push for universal healthcare and will be perfectly happy with Congress promoting a bill that is not universal healthcare. He will not expend political capital to get to 100%, will see tens of thousands die, and say, "Good enough!"

Well your stated position above is that voting for Joe Biden means you dont care if 10 million Americans don't have coverage and die actually.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, G650 said:

Well your stated position above is that voting for Joe Biden means you dont care if 10 million Americans don't have coverage and die actually.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Am I incorrect? If so, why would you vote for someone who doesn't want universal healthcare instead of someone who does?

[G650 14106]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Am I incorrect?

My advice is to step back from the keyboard and ponder where you went wrong because I don't believe you can possibly be this dumb.

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

My advice is to step back from the keyboard and ponder where you went wrong because I don't believe you can possibly be this dumb.

I'm too stupid, you're going to have to teach me.

You say you support universal healthcare.

Given the choice of candidates, some of whom support universal healthcare and some who do not, you chose someone who does not.

My question is very simple: Why did you do that?

[bad_teammate 13132]

8.5% out of pocket cap... for the insurance itself

Not for how much you actually spend on healthcare, but to just have the plan.

So while the 3% will have literally nothing, even those who qualify will still have expensive insurance that they can't afford to actually use.

So awesome. Great job.

[FWD 297]

This is a full-on meltdown.

[G650 14106]

Because after the positive effects of Democratic gains from Congress down through the state house and the historic lack of coalition building from Sanders, the net advancement of our healthcare system will be greater under Biden than Sanders. That part is not terribly complicated.

But you still are not looking back at what you just wrote and how ridiculous it sounds, which is what we are actually discussing.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, FWD said:

This is a full-on meltdown.

I agree. When it comes to the issue of healthcare, I get very passionate.

I am both triggered and a snowflake when it comes to people posting GoFundMes for their kids dying of cancer and seeing Democrats coalescing behind a guy who doesn't want to stop that and endlessly berating the Democrats who do want to stop that.

Just now, G650 said:

Because after the positive effects of Democratic gains from Congress down through the state house and the historic lack of coalition building from Sanders, the net advancement of our healthcare system will be greater under Biden than Sanders. That part is not terribly complicated.

This is some convoluted logic built on a lot of faulty premises. It presumes you not only understand the political past with a great degree of accuracy, but that you can predict the future.

But it still avoids the issue, which is that the candidate you chose doesn't even call for universal healthcare. It's not even his goal.

Do you have any evidence of Biden having an ability to pass legislation that advances progressive ideals opposed by massive financial industries? If not, on what do you base your presumption that Biden can Get It Done?

Quote

But you still are not looking back at what you just wrote and how ridiculous it sounds, which is what we are actually discussing.

Please be more specific. I am a very stupid person.

[Foosters 17732]

I'm gonna vote for Biden if he's the nominee, but I'm not sure where all this optimism comes from regarding healthcare and entitlements. During the course of his career, his positions on both have been center-right (at best.)

Like, I get it, he's better than Trump in a number of ways. But that's no reason to act like he's something he's not.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Foosters

[bad_teammate 13132]

Joe Biden's healthcare plan from his 2008 campaign

Biden said that if he is elected, he would bring together government workers, health care providers, labor leaders and businesses in the first three months of his administration to work on health care challenges.

While his plan doesn't require universal coverage, Biden's campaign said if Americans are given better health care options, they will get coverage.

 

[G650 14106]

32 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

If not, on what do you base your presumption that Biden can Get It Done?

Maybe you just don't realize Congress is the legislative branch and the Presidency is the Executive?

 

I'm not looking for Biden to 'Get it Done'.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Since we’re now pivoting to universal healthcare, let’s all try to come to understand why we don’t have it.

Countries like Sweden, Canada, and Cuba have it because it’s a good thing for a country to have, and because in general they are what you would call homogeneous populations.

America does not have it for the same reason blacks lacked basic civil rights up to the 60s and beyond. Because we are a non homogenous population with a history of at first slavery and then racism.

For people who can afford it with good insurance, we have really good healthcare. For people who can’t afford it, it pretty much sucks and there’s a good chance you die.

In order to get the people who have the good healthcare to agree to vote to give something up to help those who don’t,  you have to convince them it won’t hurt them personally and their family. Its not complicated and as much as I like the Bern, he has not yet made that case.

Its why the olds in Florida don’t feel the Bern, Medicare for all means less Medicare for them. Its what the suburban soccer mom in philly doesn’t feel the Bern, more health insurance for the masses means less health insurance for them.

Convince the olds and the moms and maybe you get somewhere. Otherwise, keep spinning those wheels.

 

[G650 14106]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

Since we’re now pivoting to universal healthcare, let’s all try to come to understand why we don’t have it.

Countries like Sweden, Canada, and Cuba have it because it’s a good thing for a country to have, and because in general they are what you would call homogeneous populations.

America does not have it for the same reason blacks lacked basic civil rights up to the 60s and beyond. Because we are a non homogenous population with a history of at first slavery and then racism.

For people who can afford it with good insurance, we have really good healthcare. For people who can’t afford it, it pretty much sucks and there’s a good chance you die.

In order to get the people who have the good healthcare to agree to vote to give something up to help those who don’t,  you have to convince them it won’t hurt them personally and their family. Its not complicated and as much as I like the Bern, he has not yet made that case.

Its why the olds in Florida don’t feel the Bern, Medicare for all means less Medicare for them. Its what the suburban soccer mom in philly doesn’t feel the Bern, more health insurance for the masses means less health insurance for them.

Convince the olds and the moms and maybe you get somewhere. Otherwise, keep spinning those wheels.

 

There's also specific things that occurred to end up where somehow businesses became the primary health insurance provider.

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, G650 said:

There's also specific things that occurred to end up where somehow businesses became the primary health insurance provider.

Very true, but that’s a pretty long discussion.

[G650 14106]

Indeed. Not trying to rehash that.

[henrygandorf 29177]

9 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Very true, but that’s a pretty long discussion.

there's also the long discussion of the steps needed to go through the process of switching to single payer as a country.  most americans are too lazy to even listen to the steps, much less vote to start the process.

when people say "they like their current healthcare plan", i would guess that most of them don't really care or wouldn't really notice the difference if it got changed to single payer, as long as they didn't have to read anything or fill out any forms or make any decisions.  most americans will go really fucking far out of their way to avoid something they think is a hassle.

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

there's also the long discussion of the steps needed to go through the process of switching to single payer as a country.  most americans are too lazy to even listen to the steps, much less vote to start the process.

when people say "they like their current healthcare plan", i would guess that most of them don't really care or wouldn't really notice the difference if it got changed to single payer, as long as they didn't have to read anything or fill out any forms or make any decisions.  most americans will go really fucking far out of their way to avoid something they think is a hassle.

What I want is a public option as a critical first step. That will strengthen the process towards more universal care.

The health care industry opposes it because they don’t want the inevitable competition on pricing from the government.

Because in my mind and most importantly, a public option would create pricing pressure on a system that has unrealistic and arbitrary pricing.   I have personally seen the ridiculous nature of health care costs, not from watching the sick, but from watching those who profit from it. Its obscene. 

[henrygandorf 29177]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

What I want is a public option as a critical first step. That will strengthen the process towards more universal care.

The health care industry opposes it because they don’t want the inevitable competition on pricing from the government.

Because in my mind and most importantly, a public option would create pricing pressure on a system that has unrealistic and arbitrary pricing.   I have personally seen the ridiculous nature of health care costs, not from watching the sick, but from watching those who profit from it. Its obscene. 

agreed to all.

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

If BT keeps posting like this at least the entire country will agree on universal mental healthcare.  

[RPM 26228]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

I agree. When it comes to the issue of healthcare, I get very passionate.

I am both triggered and a snowflake when it comes to people posting GoFundMes for their kids dying of cancer and seeing Democrats coalescing behind a guy who doesn't want to stop that and endlessly berating the Democrats who do want to stop that.

This is some convoluted logic built on a lot of faulty premises. It presumes you not only understand the political past with a great degree of accuracy, but that you can predict the future.

But it still avoids the issue, which is that the candidate you chose doesn't even call for universal healthcare. It's not even his goal.

Do you have any evidence of Biden having an ability to pass legislation that advances progressive ideals opposed by massive financial industries? If not, on what do you base your presumption that Biden can Get It Done?

Please be more specific. I am a very stupid person.

Do you actually believe that if Bernie wins the R's in the Senate are going to magically roll over and vote for universal coverage? While you may be passionate about and a true believer in Bernie, McConnell is not. The result will be the same with Biden, but he will work and play well with others if you get my drift. The alternative is the what some people are saying will be the greatest, most luxurious coverage anyone has ever seen. It looks like it was straight out of Central Casting. Generals will have tears in their eyes.

Stay focused. Put the man with the best shot at winning on point.

[bad_teammate 13132]

27 minutes ago, G650 said:

Maybe you just don't realize Congress is the legislative branch and the Presidency is the Executive?

Like Brisket, you think saying obvious things makes you sound smart, but it doesn't.

Your argument is that Biden is more likely to get positive healthcare outcomes because he's a better coalition-builder than Sanders is, yes?

I am asking for evidence of this superior ability to build legislative coalitions when it comes to doing things that are bad for the massive corporations involved. Because to enact better healthcare we are going to have to eat into their profits one way or another.

No one can seem to do this, but it seems really important in terms of arguing that Biden is a deal-maker and things-accomplisher. Right?

25 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Convince the olds and the moms and maybe you get somewhere. Otherwise, keep spinning those wheels.

That's what we're actively trying to do and actually having a great deal of success doing.

Every single state so far.

That's just with Bernie as a candidate. Now imagine Bernie with the bully pulpit of the presidency.

41 minutes ago, RPM said:

Do you actually believe that if Bernie wins the R's in the Senate are going to magically roll over and vote for universal coverage?

Nope.

I think we get less than we want when we enter negotiations. So we go in saying "100% YOU FUCKERS!" and negotiate down to 97% the first time. Then we never ever stop pushing for 100%.

I know we're not going to get what we want, so we go in with the maximal ask to improve our bargaining position. That's common sense, is it not?

Obama went in asking for a regulated private market and a public option. He negotiated away with the public option.

Biden is going to go in asking for... a regulated private market and a public option. What is he going to negotiate away to get it?

Quote

While you may be passionate about and a true believer in Bernie, McConnell is not.

This isn't about Bernie, this is about 100% universal healthcare.

Quote

The result will be the same with Biden, but he will work and play well with others if you get my drift.

How can you know either of these things? What evidence is this based on?

Let's look at some numbers.

Uninsured in 2008: 14.9%
Uninsured in 2018: 13.7% 

(source)

That's Obamacare. There is obviously more good about Obamacare than overall uninsured rate, but how the fuck are we supposed to look at that and think that's acceptable progress? It's a joke.

We are on pace for 100% coverage in over a century.

So ask yourself seriously and honestly: Is Biden going to be an energetic and clear champion for universal healthcare?

Quote

Stay focused. Put the man with the best shot at winning on point.

Is Biden the man with the best shot at winning? Based on what?

 

[The Dog 43805]

Some of y'all just need to put bt and others on ignore and move on with life. Sheesh.

 

[RPM 26228]

4 minutes ago, The Dog said:

Some of y'all just need to put bt and others on ignore and move on with life. Sheesh.

Forget it, he's rolling.

[mdmost 42865]

That's a long cat post in the wild if you guys have never seen one. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

If Bernie was so great at coalition building and everyone wants universal healthcare, then why isn’t Bernie winning? Because he doesn’t have the bully pulpit of the presidency? 

[bad_teammate 13132]

6 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

If Bernie was so great at coalition building and everyone wants universal healthcare, then why isn’t Bernie winning?

That's an interesting question. There were a ton of voters who want Medicare for All and voted for Biden. Look at the numbers posted above.

In the exit polling, 63% of Texans wanted M4A and 53% of the vote went to candidates who not only do not promote M4A, but actively attacked it in debates. Sanders and Warren, the M4A candidates, got a combined 41%.

So even if we assume every single Warren/Sanders voter wants M4A (which probably isn't true), that means 22% of Texan voters went in and said, "I love me some single-payer government health insurance and Joe's gonna give it to me!"

SC: 50% pro-M4A (but only 27% of the vote went to M4A candidates)

And you see the same mirrored in every state that Biden won.

So while you and I make the connection between Bernie and single-payer government plans, voters in general don't. Unfortunately for the health of our nation, we here represent very informed voters. I know more about what's going on than probably 70% of voters, and that's terrifying.

So I totally get where your question comes from, but it assumes a very well-informed and rational sample group, and that's not what we have.

M4A is very popular. Biden is also very popular. These don't conflict. Those same voters would have liked Biden even if he had said, "Yeah single-payer rules" at the debates. (Obviously he would have lost some other voters.)

Quote

Because he doesn’t have the bully pulpit of the presidency? 

That absolutely would help, yes.

The scope of what's possible isn't really limited by much except what people are exposed to. If you tell people over and over that it's normal to just let tens of thousands die every year for no reason then it just becomes normal. If you tell people everyone deserves healthcare over and over that will become normal.

[bad_teammate 13132]

I think a lot of resistance to single-payer isn't that it's pie-in-the-sky, it's that it's actually very feasible and real. It's an actual threat to massive industries.

Because if we don't like pie-in-the-sky promises...