2019 NBA Offseason Thread -- Trades, Free Agents, Firings, Retirements, Etc

[LTtxfan 49251]

41 minutes ago, Calihorn said:

Pelinka is a fucking idiot.

Yeah.  For anyone that thinks the Lakers back office finally has their shit together just read how they are trying to fix some screw-ups related to the AD trade....

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27005071/sources-lakers-hustling-create-max-salary-slot

 

"Sources: Lakers hustling to create max salary slot"

The Los Angeles Lakers are scrambling to reshape the parameters of the Anthony Davis trade with New Orleans and create the capacity for $32 million-plus in salary-cap space when the free-agent moratorium ends on July 6, league sources told ESPN.  The Lakers were engaging additional teams on Tuesday to take on the contracts of three of the remaining five players on the team's roster --- Mo Wagner, Isaac Bonga and Jemerrio Jones -- league sources said. Kyle Kuzma and LeBron James are the only other two Lakers remaining on the team's end-of-season roster.

The Lakers are pursuing the purchase of second-round picks in Thursday's NBA draft, understanding they need avenues to acquire inexpensive talent and contracts that will count only as minimum salaries against the cap, league sources said.    The Lakers probably would need to incentivize the trading of those salaries with cash or draft considerations. Wagner, the No. 25 pick in the 2018 NBA draft, probably has the most value of the three players.  Teams are allowed to pay as much as $5.2 million to buy draft picks in a calendar year. Los Angeles paid $1.5 million as part of a deal to acquire Bonga in July, limiting the Lakers to $3.7 million in financial trades.  Still, the $3.7 million replenishes to $5.6 million once the salary cap resets on June 30. The Lakers could agree to a trade on draft night Thursday but not finalize it until July 6 if the directive is to use more than the $3.7 million available.

The Lakers need those contracts moved to come within 125% of Davis' salary -- which would be the difference between $23.7 million and $32.5 million in space when the trade is finalized July 6.  If Davis doesn't waive his $4.1 million trade bonus, the Lakers-Pelicans trade wouldn't be allowed even if Los Angeles finds a third team for the players not included in the original deal with New Orleans.  The Lakers would have to wait until July 30 to have the maximum cap space -- unless they were willing to incentivize New Orleans to agree to delay the completion of the trade.

Edited June 19, 2019 by LTtxfan

[Jhawk 1075]

So let’s say the lakers grab kawhi or some other max/close to max guy. They’re sitting at 90-95M and have 4 players on their roster. So they have something like $15M to spend on 11 guys to fill out the other 130-135 minutes per game. And they’re doing it with effectively no draft picks  

Outstanding work they’re doing out in LA. I can’t wait to see lebron become an actual GM. 

[d2o 1602]

10 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

So let’s say the lakers grab kawhi or some other max/close to max guy. They’re sitting at 90-95M and have 4 players on their roster. So they have something like $15M to spend on 11 guys to fill out the other 130-135 minutes per game. And they’re doing it with effectively no draft picks  

Outstanding work they’re doing out in LA. I can’t wait to see lebron become an actual GM. 

We've seen this exact thing in MIA though.   Took two yrs to get the roster filled out.   They still made the Finals is yr one.     I dont really like it.   I think they should split that money among a few quality vets.    Still it has worked before so we will see.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

We've seen this exact thing in MIA though.   Took two yrs to get the roster filled out.   They still made the Finals is yr one.     I dont really like it.   I think they should split that money among a few quality vets.    Still it has worked before so we will see.

I think someone mentioned it, but if you have three max players one of them get the short end and ends up playing and putting up 2nd or 3rd tier stats.  Might as well just pay 2nd or 3rd tier money at that point. 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

I think someone mentioned it, but if you have three max players one of them get the short end and ends up playing and putting up 2nd or 3rd tier stats.  Might as well just pay 2nd or 3rd tier money at that point. 

Right that is why I say they would be better served splitting the money between a few guys.   Just saying it worked before

[TommyGufano 6021]

11 hours ago, Llogg said:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/2019/

He was about 21 and horford was 38. Math is hard but roughly 30 each.

nope

[Francisco 2.0 32395]

Nets aren't sold on Kyrie as a leader.  Lulz.

 

 

[TommyGufano 6021]

4 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Nets aren't sold on Kyrie as a leader.  Lulz.

 

 

Would love to hear convos between Michael and Brett Yormark if Nets are Kyrie's preferred destination and they go another route.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

We've seen this exact thing in MIA though.   Took two yrs to get the roster filled out.   They still made the Finals is yr one.     I dont really like it.   I think they should split that money among a few quality vets.    Still it has worked before so we will see.

Lebron was what 29-30 tho? He'll be 36 for year 3 of the Lakers experiment

[d2o 1602]

Just now, MNLonghornFUKM said:

1 hour ago, d2o said:

We've seen this exact thing in MIA though.   Took two yrs to get the roster filled out.   They still made the Finals is yr one.     I dont really like it.   I think they should split that money among a few quality vets.    Still it has worked before so we will see.

Lebron was what 29-30 tho? He'll be 36 for year 3 of the Lakers experiment

AD is 26 and most of the big time studs that they might sign for a max deal are in their primes as well.  

[ztejas 43476]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

So let’s say the lakers grab kawhi or some other max/close to max guy. They’re sitting at 90-95M and have 4 players on their roster. So they have something like $15M to spend on 11 guys to fill out the other 130-135 minutes per game. And they’re doing it with effectively no draft picks  

Outstanding work they’re doing out in LA. I can’t wait to see lebron become an actual GM. 

They are obviously going above the cap. 

1 hour ago, d2o said:

We've seen this exact thing in MIA though.   Took two yrs to get the roster filled out.   They still made the Finals is yr one.     I dont really like it.   I think they should split that money among a few quality vets.    Still it has worked before so we will see.

We did see that - and they lost in the Finals - but that was a bit of a different era under a different CBA. LA should be able to fill out the roster to some degree to not suck complete ass off of the bench. 

To your point though, even if they do suck off the bench, they will still be good (assuming AD doesn't tear an MCL 25 games into the season and LeBron doesn't start skipping practice to produce reality TV, both of which I give a 40% chance of happening)

[Jhawk 1075]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

They are obviously going above the cap. 

We did see that - and they lost in the Finals - but that was a bit of a different era under a different CBA. LA should be able to fill out the roster to some degree to not suck complete ass off of the bench. 

To your point though, even if they do suck off the bench, they will still be good (assuming AD doesn't tear an MCL 25 games into the season and LeBron doesn't start skipping practice to produce reality TV, both of which I give a 40% chance of happening)

I know there are special provisions for filling out the roster but if they use $2M a guy they will have 11 players on their roster when they reach the cap.  Its not like they can go out and get a $10M guy after they have reached the cap.  They're going to end up with a bunch of veterans minimum guys and a few rookies or something.  If they get a third max-level guy (they'll end up with Butler after Kawhi signs a 1+1 with toronto) then bringing Melo in will probably be the best roster move they can make.  Think about that... Melo is going to be the only value asset besides Kuzma.

I'd love to see what the production levels are for guys who are free agents taking the vet minimums.  I can't believe that it is a very fruitful venture to bring these guys in and have them account for 55% of the minutes played on any given night.

I think we should start a pool on how long Vogel lasts and if he leaves on his own or due to Lebron bitching that they can't win with this coach/roster.  My guess is he just says "fuck it" and walks after a year.  Enter Lue.

[Francisco 2.0 32395]

13 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

 

I think we should start a pool on how long Vogel lasts and if he leaves on his own or due to Lebron bitching that they can't win with this coach/roster.  My guess is he just says "fuck it" and walks after a year.  Enter Lue.

Lulz.  That's Jason Kidd's gig forthcoming.

 

 

[ztejas 43476]

13 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I know there are special provisions for filling out the roster but if they use $2M a guy they will have 11 players on their roster when they reach the cap.  Its not like they can go out and get a $10M guy after they have reached the cap.  They're going to end up with a bunch of veterans minimum guys and a few rookies or something.  If they get a third max-level guy (they'll end up with Butler after Kawhi signs a 1+1 with toronto) then bringing Melo in will probably be the best roster move they can make.  Think about that... Melo is going to be the only value asset besides Kuzma.

I'd love to see what the production levels are for guys who are free agents taking the vet minimums.  I can't believe that it is a very fruitful venture to bring these guys in and have them account for 55% of the minutes played on any given night.

I think we should start a pool on how long Vogel lasts and if he leaves on his own or due to Lebron bitching that they can't win with this coach/roster.  My guess is he just says "fuck it" and walks after a year.  Enter Lue.

I don't know why it matters who they sign #11 or #12 through #15. No team in the NBA is paying their 12th man $10 million a season. I kind of fail to understand the point you're making, honestly, other than that they are not super deep - but that's what happens when you go superstar heavy like they are. 

[Machinator 32099]

 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Machinator said:

 

I've liked Middleton and thought he was a NBA player all the way back when he was at A&M..........................that said giving him a full max 5 yr deal is crazy.

[d2o 1602]

10 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I don't know why it matters who they sign #11 or #12 through #15. No team in the NBA is paying their 12th man $10 million a season. I kind of fail to understand the point you're making, honestly, other than that they are not super deep - but that's what happens when you go superstar heavy like they are. 

Some are intent on making this Lakers thing a complete and utter failure no matter what they do.    You cannot use rational argument with that group.

[aggie08 21505]

Just now, d2o said:

I've liked Middleton and thought he was a NBA player all the way back when he was at A&M..........................that said giving him a full max 5 yr deal is crazy.

Yeah, at best he's middle class man's Klay.

[Sbbruin 21861]

2 hours ago, d2o said:

We've seen this exact thing in MIA though.   Took two yrs to get the roster filled out.   They still made the Finals is yr one.     I dont really like it.   I think they should split that money among a few quality vets.    Still it has worked before so we will see.

It has worked out, but both Bosh and Love as #3 stars were both somewhat marginalized and disgruntled as a result.  I agree that using that money on 2-3 quality players to fill out the balance of the starting/early bench rotation would probably work out better, because everyone would understand there is one ball, and it goes through the 2 big dogs first.

[d2o 1602]

4 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Yeah, at best he's middle class man's Klay.

Just the way it is now.  You have to overpay to keep your guys.   The only way to get them to not check the market is to give them max deals.   It almost ends with that contract being an albatross.   Almost always from the day its signed and it generally gets worse as the contract ages.

Edited June 19, 2019 by d2o

[ztejas 43476]

Just now, d2o said:

Just the way it is now.  You have to overpay to keep your guys.   The only way to get them to not check the market is to give them max deals.

And unfortunately for MIL someone will pay Middleton the max if he wants it. 

[SilasCoade 2622]

59 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

nope

Al Horford 33 C $38,150,000

From the link posted above. That's his cap figure according to them.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Llogg said:

Al Horford 33 C $38,150,000

From the link posted above. That's his cap figure according to them.

His option was 30.2M for the coming yr.   That cannot be right.

 

 

EDIT: his cap number last season was $28,928,710

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston_celtics/

Edited June 19, 2019 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

And unfortunately for MIL someone will pay Middleton the max if he wants it. 

Yep, you have to pay to maintain continuity but man it hurts sometimes.  This is gonna be one of those times.

[Sbbruin 21861]

You also have too many teams with tons of salary cap room that are going to end up filling it with overpaid players.

[HtownHorn 14724]

13 minutes ago, d2o said:

I've liked Middleton and thought he was a NBA player all the way back when he was at A&M..........................that said giving him a full max 5 yr deal is crazy.

Yes. It's like some people don't realize they are good players because of the stars they play with make them better. My guess is Middleton being the #1 option for a team will end in disaster, as opposed to him being the 3rd/4th option that he currently is on Milwaukee.

[ztejas 43476]

10 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Al Horford 33 C $38,150,000

From the link posted above. That's his cap figure according to them.

 

9 minutes ago, d2o said:

His option was 30.2M for the coming yr.   That cannot be right.

 

 

EDIT: his cap number last season was $28,928,710

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston_celtics/

I think Spotrac is bugged or hasn't updated. There shouldn't be a figure at all - he opted out. Previous to opting out his cap hold was just over $30MM iirc. 

[d2o 1602]

4 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

You also have too many teams with tons of salary cap room that are going to end up filling it with overpaid players.

Yep, that too.   More money than star players is how we ended up with guys like Evan Turner and Allen Crabbe on max deals.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

Is 38 the cap hold?  The cap hold is like 120% of the previous years contract, or around that.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, ztejas said:

 

I think Spotrac is bugged or hasn't updated. There shouldn't be a figure at all - he opted out. Previous to opting out his cap hold was just over $30MM iirc. 

Well I guess that could be his cap hold for next season though.   Its normally like 120-5% of your previous salary I think.   Maybe that is what they are referring to.    His cap hold won't clear until either BOS renounces his rights or he actually signs with another team.

[SilasCoade 2622]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

His option was 30.2M for the coming yr.   That cannot be right.

 

 

EDIT: his cap number last season was $28,928,710

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston_celtics/

Not sure what info that site is using then. Thanks for the correction.

I still don't see how they are only able to get to 28M in cap room. From that site their projected payroll for next season on the books without Horford or Irving is currently $64,269,347. So 118M is the cap and should leave them with 54M in room. What's the missing variable?

[HtownHorn 14724]

18 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Al Horford 33 C $38,150,000

From the link posted above. That's his cap figure according to them.

No it's not. His PO was for $30M. That is his cap hold based on the maximum salary he would qualify for under a new max deal. If you took his previous salary * 150%, that would be like $42M which is more than 35% of the cap, which is what a supermax deal starts at. 35% of the $109M cap is $38,150,000, so that is his cap hold.

Edited June 19, 2019 by HtownHorn

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Not sure what info that site is using then. Thanks for the correction.

I still don't see how they are only able to get to 28M in cap room. From that site their projected payroll for next season on the books without Horford or Irving is currently $64,269,347. So 118M is the cap and should leave them with 54M in room. What's the missing variable?

For one the cap will only be 109M next yr.    Next they have holds for Marcus Morris and Aron Baynes totaling about 15-6M.  64 +15 = 79 so that 28-9M projected space sounds about right when you factor in league min holds as well to fill the roster.

Edited June 19, 2019 by d2o

[TommyGufano 6021]

Cap hold only restricted Celtics ability to sign other FA's while Horford's FA status remained unsettled. Didn't represent any real savings on 2019-20 payroll. Cap hit for 19-20 was just > $30mm had he opted in.

[Tylerocks 2553]

Utah trades Korver, Grayson Allen, Jae Crowder and draft picks to Memphis for Mike Conley

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

[HtownHorn 14724]

6 minutes ago, d2o said:

For one the cap will only be 109M next yr.    Next they have holds for Marcus Morris and Aron Baynes totaling about 15-6M.  64 +15 = 79 so that 28-9M projected space sounds about right when you factor in league min holds as well to fill the roster.

Baynes opted in.

You also have to count the cap holds their 1st round picks hold as well.

Edited June 19, 2019 by HtownHorn

[d2o 1602]

Just now, HtownHorn said:

Baynes opted in.

Ok, according to this he didn't have a player opt.

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston_celtics/

 

[d2o 1602]

5 minutes ago, Tylerocks said:

Utah trades Korver, Grayson Allen, Jae Crowder and draft picks to Memphis for Mike Conley

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Man, every NBA off-season seems to be crazy but this one is shaping up to be absolutely nuts.

 

That should mean Rubio will be moved somewhere soon too.

 

 

EDIT: My fault Rubio is a FA. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by d2o

[Francisco 2.0 32395]

3 minutes ago, Tylerocks said:

Utah trades Korver, Grayson Allen, Jae Crowder and draft picks to Memphis for Mike Conley

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Thought Korver was going to retire.  Maybe he still does, but him being tossed in was probably just so the numbers matched.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Thought Korver was going to retire.  Maybe he still does, but him being tossed in was probably just so the numbers matched.

yep

[Machinator 32099]

 

[Machinator 32099]

nm

Edited June 19, 2019 by Machinator

[TommyGufano 6021]

6 minutes ago, Tylerocks said:

Utah trades Korver, Grayson Allen, Jae Crowder and draft picks to Memphis for Mike Conley

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Conley is a stud. Good move for Utah.

Quick Google search suggests Chris Gatling was the most traded player in NBA history (8x). Crowder might challenge that if he sticks around the league long enough

[d2o 1602]

 

[Jhawk 1075]

33 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I don't know why it matters who they sign #11 or #12 through #15. No team in the NBA is paying their 12th man $10 million a season. I kind of fail to understand the point you're making, honestly, other than that they are not super deep - but that's what happens when you go superstar heavy like they are. 

That's exactly the point I'm making.  You're relying on health of an aging lebron and an AD who only plays 80% of the time due to injury.  If they go with a 3rd superstar then they might end up worse than the last two bulls teams that Jimmy Butler played on if the injury bug hits them.  Like D2o said, they're better off spreading the money around to multiple serviceable guys rather than one big name and 11 vet minimums who can't play.  They're going to have to play a 9-10 man rotation to get through the season with any gas left in the tank.

The greater thought in all of this is that they grossly fucked their roster to get one guy.  Now they have to fuck it even more to accomplish their grand plan.  A plan that the worst player GM/agent/rob pelinka combo has devised.  The lakers are going to hurt from this when AD and Lebron combine to miss 20-25 games.  They should have either waited a year to get AD or not bid against themselves in the first place, or even after that at least get all of the aspects of the deal right.  They had 3 chances to not fuck it up and they fucked it up each time.  

The Lakers seem to be actively trying to fuck themselves. At least the knicks are just incompetent boobs.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, TommyGufano said:

Conley is a stud. Good move for Utah.

Quick Google search suggests Chris Gatling was the most traded player in NBA history (8x). Crowder might challenge that if he sticks around the league long enough

Utah wanted Conley badly last yr at the deadline.   They just couldnt get the deal done.     He will help them but that makes their small backcourt smaller.

[d2o 1602]

Grizz also get #23 tomorrow along with the protected 2020 first

 

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/254289/Jazz-Acquire-Mike-Conley-From-Grizzlies

Edited June 19, 2019 by d2o

[Jhawk 1075]

34 minutes ago, d2o said:

Just the way it is now.  You have to overpay to keep your guys.   The only way to get them to not check the market is to give them max deals.   It almost ends with that contract being an albatross.   Almost always from the day its signed and it generally gets worse as the contract ages.

I'm surprised that teams haven't started offering declining contracts to guys after age 31-32.  Give them big dollars up front and then have them decline by $1-3M a year, or heavily decline by like $5M in the last year or two.  Of course that doesn't work if the cap is ever increasing, but as the money starts to top out (like it is starting to) then give CP3 $37M while he is in the last year of his prime and have his deal down to $30 by the time he is 35.  This should be exactly how they do it for guys that are stars but don't have the marketability of someone like LBJ.  You could pay him $50M a year his last year in the league and he'd probably be worth it from a marketing standpoint.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Jhawk said:

I'm surprised that teams haven't started offering declining contracts to guys after age 31-32.  Give them big dollars up front and then have them decline by $1-3M a year, or heavily decline by like $5M in the last year or two.  Of course that doesn't work if the cap is ever increasing, but as the money starts to top out (like it is starting to) then give CP3 $37M while he is in the last year of his prime and have his deal down to $30 by the time he is 35.  This should be exactly how they do it for guys that are stars but don't have the marketability of someone like LBJ.  You could pay him $50M a year his last year in the league and he'd probably be worth it from a marketing standpoint.

It would significantly effect teams cap room in the present.    That is all they are really concerned about.

[ztejas 43476]

So Memphis is drafting Morant, right? 

RJ to NY. We can start the draft at #4.