The Surly Mountain Biking Thread

[Ths71 472]

Nice Doc on MTB origins. Amazon Prime and Apple TV I think.

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[Braff Zacklin 13628]

So here's another.

Shot in the middle of yesterday's ride. Too many people on the trails right now for bombing runs. Plus, I had very tired legs. I can probably come up with more excuses if needed.

 

The splatter that gets on the lens near the 3:00 mark does an excellent job of illustrating how much work the in-camera stabilization software is doing. I'm guessing it shoots at a much higher native resolution and then crops the frames to achieve smoothness?

[TwiceHorn 31509]

17 hours ago, Ths71 said:

Nice Doc on MTB origins. Amazon Prime and Apple TV I think.
 

 

 

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Watched this.  Pretty interesting.  Seems like some seething anger between Ritchey, Fisher, and Sinyard.  I've seen grumbling over the years about Specialized being ripoff artists.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

32 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Watched this.  Pretty interesting.  Seems like some seething anger between Ritchey, Fisher, and Sinyard.  I've seen grumbling over the years about Specialized being ripoff artists.

I should add that, as an IP attorney, allegations of ripoffs are common as goose tracks in every hobby forum I have been in (guns, knives, bikes and so on).  Most of the time, nothing illegal has occurred, partly because no one patented anything and largely because what was ripped off was not patentable.  But it points out how much people tend to dislike copyists and imitators, despite the fact that most of the time it is fully legal and actually encouraged by our system.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

59 minutes ago, Braff Zacklin said:

So here's another.

Shot in the middle of yesterday's ride. Too many people on the trails right now for bombing runs. Plus, I had very tired legs. I can probably come up with more excuses if needed.

 

The splatter that gets on the lens near the 3:00 mark does an excellent job of illustrating how much work the in-camera stabilization software is doing. I'm guessing it shoots at a much higher native resolution and then crops the frames to achieve smoothness?

Very nice.  Love the old-school bike gloves.  I thought that's what I would get when I started off instead of funky-dude Fox or Dakine gloves.  But it isn't.

Edited April 20, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Ths71 472]

I should add that, as an IP attorney, allegations of ripoffs are common as goose tracks in every hobby forum I have been in (guns, knives, bikes and so on).  Most of the time, nothing illegal has occurred, partly because no one patented anything and largely because what was ripped off was not patentable.  But it points out how much people tend to dislike copyists and imitators, despite the fact that most of the time it is fully legal and actually encouraged by our system.

Sinyard didn’t do anything illegal but he is a dick. He did admit the Stumpy was based on the Ritchey(it was)but his original builder, Tim Neenan, still claims it was based on a design of his.

He has a long history of suing little guys for pretty questionable various infringements.

I don’t think the guys have any real animosity, at least anymore. The have all done OK. Probably wish they would have had the vision/drive that Mike did.

Have met Breeze, Ritchey and Kelly on a few occasions as well as Jacquie Phelan( she flashed the crowd at the finish line at Lajitas one year) and they are cool as hell. Especially Kelly.


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[TwiceHorn 31509]

Well, did six miles at OCNP today.  Got up to 85 while I was there and that was a bit of a beating.  I did some slow-ish, steady climbing in the shade, then to get off the loop, a quick burst up a short steep one and out into the sunlight.  About 25 yards into the sun, I was like Bill the Cat.  Sunny open patches really take it out of me when it's warm and I'm not used to it.

I tried to ride the red loop out to the jump section to see if there were any small jumps to play on, but got turned around somehow, ended up on blue, and then came upon this on the orange loop in the wrong direction.

Looking the wrong way.  

 

And looking the right way:

I have never ridden this because it's intimidating looking.  All limestone, with two lines, not clearly A and B, steep and narrow with a pretty hellacious climbout.  That's a giant hunk of limestone dividing the two lines.  I have heard that some launch off that.

However, having come upon it from the wrong direction, as opposed to just walking it, I see that maybe it's not so bad.  One of these days  . . . .  Also, it occurs to me that maybe the wrong direction is the right one. I have always taken this as near the start of the Orange Loop, but maybe it's the end of Blue? @Ths71?

Also, it occurred to me that the Collin County trails generally lack rocks.  These SW Dallas trails have plenty of limestone, as do the N Dallas trails (not quite this much or more worn down).  The Lake Grapevine area trails have the sandstone.  Collin County mostly has just roots.

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31509]

Well, despite a dire forecast for Tuesday night and Wednesday, we barely got any rain.  Buncha trails open.  Went up to Arbor Hills in Plano and had a good ride, albeit a little short due to the 2.5 mile loop (did ride it twice).  Fair amount of climbing, some Collin County trenches, and sunny spots.  I guess I'm getting in a bit better shape, too, because I was able to plow through the sunny/climby parts without going all ackfff thbbbt.  Also, the weather was just about perfect:  sunny, lower 70s, not too humid and some breeze.

I have noticed too that as I have gotten stronger and better conditioned, my "gear range" moved up a cog or two.  And because I am a dumbass and creature of habit, that means I don't downshift enough for all but the worst climby bits, which means I'm working myself harder than necessary.  I largely avoided that today, in part because it's not a familiar trail, so I wasn't upshifting into speed mode.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

Sheeeit.  Y'all ded?

After a week of mostly sun and pretty warm weather, about 75% of DFW trails are open.  Think I'm going to take the day off, though.  Didn't sleep quite right and tomorrow is another day.

[Your Mom 4822]

I’ll be out there today. South Austin network, just getting in miles and enjoying the weather. Got out a couple times last week but just short rides to session some jumps with the kids. We built some wooden ramps for a little jump line at my dad’s place. 3 jumps getting bigger from 12” to 15” to 21” high. Younger kid does the first two. Older kid thought he wouldn’t do the third one but after a few looks at it he launched off it. Next time we’re out there we’re gonna add some dirt to the landing zone to make it a smaller drop for my younger kid and more of a tabletop for the older one.







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[Al_4_ISU 12470]

Sweet vids Braff! We’ve had perfect biking weather lately. Which is also perfect corn/soybean planting weather, so no riding here. The good news is we should be done weeks ahead of last year, which means more riding in May.

[Pescado_Rojo 19426]

I got out yesterday afternoon. 95 when I left the house, so probably should have waited until evening. Had a low speed get off on a stair step climb. Back tire slipped in some leaf clutter, and I just fell over. Hit the "funny bone" on the inside of my right knee, so I had to sit a minute until I could feel my foot again. Got behind 3 older guys on gravel bikes taking all the wrong lines on my favorite section of trail, but they could out climb me so I couldn't get by them. Also figured out who was putting up the crazy fast times on the climb out of the park. Straight line gravel hike and bike trail. A little over 1/2 mile and 85ft of elevation gain. Guys on gravel bikes just sprinted up the damn thing. 

[TwiceHorn 31509]

29 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I got out yesterday afternoon. 95 when I left the house, so probably should have waited until evening. Had a low speed get off on a stair step climb. Back tire slipped in some leaf clutter, and I just fell over. Hit the "funny bone" on the inside of my right knee, so I had to sit a minute until I could feel my foot again. Got behind 3 older guys on gravel bikes taking all the wrong lines on my favorite section of trail, but they could out climb me so I couldn't get by them. Also figured out who was putting up the crazy fast times on the climb out of the park. Straight line gravel hike and bike trail. A little over 1/2 mile and 85ft of elevation gain. Guys on gravel bikes just sprinted up the damn thing. 

The trail nearest my house is very gravel bike friendly.  If I get one behind me, I just pull over.  

I had been wondering who was putting up 10+ mph segments in the tight and twisties, didn't occur to me that it was gravel bikes, but I'm sure it is.

[Al_4_ISU 12470]

95 in April....

[TwiceHorn 31509]

8 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

95 in April....

Yeah, that's nasty.  Getting into the 80s here is whipping my ass and six months ago, I was riding well into the 90s unscathed.

[KuЯdt 248]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Sheeeit.  Y'all ded?

After a week of mostly sun and pretty warm weather, about 75% of DFW trails are open.  Think I'm going to take the day off, though.  Didn't sleep quite right and tomorrow is another day.

Got out today for the first time in over a week.  My bum ankle flared up on me last weekend and I was barely able to walk all week.  Felt good getting out this morning on what is probably the last cool temp, low humidity weekend we will have until mid October.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

Put in 15 miles at Leon Creek yesterday. I figure I have to take advantage of pristine weather.  

Had fun on my fully rigid.  <Insert mom joke>

Edited April 26, 2020 by dingleberryswitzer

[KuЯdt 248]

I thought I would end up cutting these bars down a bit on the new ride, but I'm getting used to them now. Probably won't cut them down, at least for now. They do make some tree gates a little more interesting.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

2 hours ago, KuЯdt said:

I thought I would end up cutting these bars down a bit on the new ride, but I'm getting used to them now. Probably won't cut them down, at least for now. They do make some tree gates a little more interesting.

Yeah, I reached the same conclusion, so far.  There are a handful of non-negotiable gates with 780mm bars, the rest are just a little scary.

Speaking of which, here's the other side of that tree/fence gate at Katie Jackson.  That one is pretty much a no-go.

And the exposure.

That white, washed out part at the bottom is a limestone creek bed.

[Ths71 472]

Well, did six miles at OCNP today.  Got up to 85 while I was there and that was a bit of a beating.  I did some slow-ish, steady climbing in the shade, then to get off the loop, a quick burst up a short steep one and out into the sunlight.  About 25 yards into the sun, I was like Bill the Cat.  Sunny open patches really take it out of me when it's warm and I'm not used to it.
I tried to ride the red loop out to the jump section to see if there were any small jumps to play on, but got turned around somehow, ended up on blue, and then came upon this on the orange loop in the wrong direction.
Looking the wrong way.  

 
And looking the right way:

I have never ridden this because it's intimidating looking.  All limestone, with two lines, not clearly A and B, steep and narrow with a pretty hellacious climbout.  That's a giant hunk of limestone dividing the two lines.  I have heard that some launch off that.
However, having come upon it from the wrong direction, as opposed to just walking it, I see that maybe it's not so bad.  One of these days  . . . .  Also, it occurs to me that maybe the wrong direction is the right one. I have always taken this as near the start of the Orange Loop, but maybe it's the end of Blue? [mention=3681]Ths71[/mention]?
Also, it occurred to me that the Collin County trails generally lack rocks.  These SW Dallas trails have plenty of limestone, as do the N Dallas trails (not quite this much or more worn down).  The Lake Grapevine area trails have the sandstone.  Collin County mostly has just roots.
 

Not real familiar with that one. Getting burned out by the time that rolled around.

Different ecoregions mean different soil types. Collin is Blackland Prairie with clay soil. Grapevine and a lot of D/FW is more Crosstimbers with a more sandy loam. Blackland expand and contracts much more with the weather and washes away without vegetation.


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[TwiceHorn 31509]

42 minutes ago, Ths71 said:

Not real familiar with that one. Getting burned out by the time that rolled around.

Different ecoregions mean different soil types. Collin is Blackland Prairie with clay soil. Grapevine and a lot of D/FW is more Crosstimbers with a more sandy loam. Blackland expand and contracts much more with the weather and washes away without vegetation.


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Part of the attraction of MTB is just being outdoors, of course.  I was a bit disappointed to learn that riding takes sufficient concentration that you can't just lollygag around in the woods observing whatever like you can hiking.  I have kind of made up for that by observing what I can, which is the different geologies.  I think Collin County, while still the black gumbo dissolved limestone and sedimentary stuff, has a higher sand content than more central Dallas County.  It seems that sandy soil is more apt to make those narrow trenches than black gumbo.  

[KuЯdt 248]

Yeah, I reached the same conclusion, so far.  There are a handful of non-negotiable gates with 780mm bars, the rest are just a little scary.
Speaking of which, here's the other side of that tree/fence gate at Katie Jackson.  That one is pretty much a no-go.

And the exposure.

That white, washed out part at the bottom is a limestone creek bed.

Wouldn't you know it, I made that post this morning and then promptly smacked by bars on trees twice today.
Had a great ride out at Pace Bend. Entrance fees are waived if anyone was considering coming out here. There are a couple of new downhill lines off the top of Well Worth It.
Also there are a lot of people hanging out by the lake, and mostly practicing good social distancing. Some great scenery, and I'm not talking about the lake.

[Pescado_Rojo 19426]

Had a close encounter with a rattlesnake yesterday. Rustling brush up ahead, which is usually a rabbit or some kind of rodent out there. Glanced over as I went by and it was a pretty good sized rattler. Damn thing's head looked about the size of a deck of cards. Maybe a foot off the trail in calf high grass. I stopped two ladies out trail running about 50 yards up the trail and told them to be careful, and they turned around and went back the way they came. 

[TwiceHorn 31509]

Well, I skipped Sunday riding, too.  Almost skipped today.  Not sleeping super-well.  I think it's not being able to get the temp/AC/covers right, maybe it's this damned virus.  Regardless, I was kind of sleepy this morning too.  Went to Rowlett Creek so I could do a flat, unchallenging ride if I didn't perk up.

And ripped.  Did 9 miles including the unfamiliar loops 7, 10 and 11.  Did the last two miles at 11 mph.  Surprised the shit out of myself.  Part of it was mid 70s and 39%RH.  Could have gone more, and probably should have, but I just have a mental block about going more than 1-1.5 hours.  Especially if repeating loops is involved.

[Your Mom 4822]

3 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Had a close encounter with a rattlesnake yesterday. Rustling brush up ahead, which is usually a rabbit or some kind of rodent out there. Glanced over as I went by and it was a pretty good sized rattler. Damn thing's head looked about the size of a deck of cards. Maybe a foot off the trail in calf high grass. I stopped two ladies out trail running about 50 yards up the trail and told them to be careful, and they turned around and went back the way they came. 

"Excuse me ladies, I need to tell you about this big snake.."

[TwiceHorn 31509]

2 hours ago, Your Mom said:

"Excuse me ladies, I need to tell you about this big snake.."

At least it wasn't a big blek snek.

[Dbeasy 15073]

Had a close encounter with a rattlesnake yesterday. Rustling brush up ahead, which is usually a rabbit or some kind of rodent out there. Glanced over as I went by and it was a pretty good sized rattler. Damn thing's head looked about the size of a deck of cards. Maybe a foot off the trail in calf high grass. I stopped two ladies out trail running about 50 yards up the trail and told them to be careful, and they turned around and went back the way they came. 

Austin? Where?

[Pescado_Rojo 19426]

11 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 

Austin? Where?

 

Williamson county regional park. 

[Dbeasy 15073]

1 hour ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Williamson county regional park. 

Ugh that’s where I ride sometimes. Now I’m going to be wigged out 

[Pescado_Rojo 19426]

7 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Ugh that’s where I ride sometimes. Now I’m going to be wigged out 

I've seen a few of them out there over the years. Also a few hogs, and two Jake turkeys a couple weeks ago. Pretty wild little spot to be surrounded by neighborhoods. 

[TwiceHorn 31509]

You'll see snakes on mountain bike rides, wherever you ride.  And that's going to include the odd pit viper (copperhead, moccasin, rattler).

The good news is that you probably aren't going to step on one, and they want even less to do with you on a bike than they do with you on foot.

[Al_4_ISU 12470]

There are timber rattlers in the places I ride, but I've yet to see one on a mountain bike.  I have, however, nearly ran one over that was sunning itself on a local rail trail.  

[Al_4_ISU 12470]

We got rained out of the field, but Decorah was spared the storm. Got an elusive late April ride in. Conditions were amazing. 70, sunny, mild breeze. Tractor atrophy is real though.

[Knoxtnhorn 6061]

On 4/27/2020 at 1:50 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Well, I skipped Sunday riding, too.  Almost skipped today.  Not sleeping super-well.  I think it's not being able to get the temp/AC/covers right, maybe it's this damned virus.  Regardless, I was kind of sleepy this morning too.  Went to Rowlett Creek so I could do a flat, unchallenging ride if I didn't perk up.

And ripped.  Did 9 miles including the unfamiliar loops 7, 10 and 11.  Did the last two miles at 11 mph.  Surprised the shit out of myself.  Part of it was mid 70s and 39%RH.  Could have gone more, and probably should have, but I just have a mental block about going more than 1-1.5 hours.  Especially if repeating loops is involved.

Nice.  Dang road bike is in the shop getting a new derailleur.  Got up today to mountain bike instead, then remembered my truck is in the shop as well.  Son of a b.  

You ever been to Squabble Creek in Rockwall?  It's about 8 miles from my house.  I guess I can head up there if I get desperate enough.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

34 minutes ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

Nice.  Dang road bike is in the shop getting a new derailleur.  Got up today to mountain bike instead, then remembered my truck is in the shop as well.  Son of a b.  

You ever been to Squabble Creek in Rockwall?  It's about 8 miles from my house.  I guess I can head up there if I get desperate enough.

Years ago.  Short, but kind of fun as I recall.  It has been chopped up by utility work and construction, from what I understand.  Don't know it well enough to tell if what's gone is the good part or not.  Almost went there today, in fact.

[Ths71 472]

Took my classic out for an hour in the neighborhood just to get some time in.


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[Braff Zacklin 13628]

Repped for the antique.

Is that a Pro Floater, @Ths71? Care to tell us its story?

[Knoxtnhorn 6061]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Years ago.  Short, but kind of fun as I recall.  It has been chopped up by utility work and construction, from what I understand.  Don't know it well enough to tell if what's gone is the good part or not.  Almost went there today, in fact.

Yeah.  That's why I asked.  DORBA states that something like half the trails are shut down at the moment.  I guess beggars can't be choosers.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

On 4/19/2020 at 6:52 PM, Ths71 said:

Nice Doc on MTB origins. Amazon Prime and Apple TV I think.
 

 

 

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Finally watched this.  Pretty cool.  Those guys still seem like a bunch of crazy hippies.  

[Mappable 37]

i road over a Coral Snake earlier this week on one of the Fortuna trails near Mopac and Ben White.  

Also have been stopping by the Flats past Campbell's Hole to have a look at the sunbathers.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

@Knoxtnhorn Got out to Squabble Creek today.  Nice little trail, nice woods.  Not a whole lot going on, but the first mile or so may be the twistiest climbing in DFW.  I enjoyed it, but probably not enough to make a 30 mile trek very often.  If it's 8 miles from the house, I'd say ride the shit out of it.

[Ths71 472]

Repped for the antique.
Is that a Pro Floater, [mention=3681]Ths71[/mention]? Care to tell us its story?

Bought the frame in ‘95 at Interbike. One of the first of the new Pro Floaters after Cunningham sold the company. Pretty much period correct mid 90s goodness. 24 to 24.5 lbs depending in the tires.
Still fun to ride, just don’t get lazy.

SRAM esp 900 carbon/composite shifters and 9.0 derailleurs
Judy FSX carbon forks
Sweet Wings steel cranks and Time ATAC carbon pedals
Mavic Crossmax first generation wheels
XT V Brakes/ SRAM composite levers
TNT Ti seatpost/WTB Ti saddle
Kore stem/ Ritchey ProLite bars


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[wd40 1976]

G650 just came.

old school geo is different, for sure.  rode my SS on trail for the first time in a while, last week.  couple near-miss OTBs on some tight switchbacks.  it's become prettymuch a training bike, last few years.  strictly road.  but I did pick up a replacement for the Baldwin EXO rear, so it may see some more dirt, soon.

5 straight days of trail.  gonna hit Colorado Bend with the fam tomorrow, bikeless.  maybe catch some fish.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

Yknow, watching the Klunkerz vid, I kind of marveled at revered frame builders RItchey, Fisher (to the extent he actually built any, probably designed some) and some of the others, with no engineering education at all.  And big money Specialized ripping off RItchey and Fisher.

And then Cunningham and Mantis.  

And then it starts to make sense when you read that full sus bikes have advanced by leaps and bounds in the last 10 years or so.  I think they finally have engineers or people who have at least studied kinematics doing frames and suspensions.

Edited May 1, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Braff Zacklin 13628]

4 hours ago, Ths71 said:

Bought the frame in ‘95 at Interbike. One of the first of the new Pro Floaters after Cunningham sold the company. Pretty much period correct mid 90s goodness. 24 to 24.5 lbs depending in the tires.
Still fun to ride, just don’t get lazy.

SRAM esp 900 carbon/composite shifters and 9.0 derailleurs
Judy FSX carbon forks
Sweet Wings steel cranks and Time ATAC carbon pedals
Mavic Crossmax first generation wheels
XT V Brakes/ SRAM composite levers
TNT Ti seatpost/WTB Ti saddle
Kore stem/ Ritchey ProLite bars

Funny thing, but the Pro Floater design apparently wasn't an evolutionary dead end. Meet its distant ancestor, the 2019 Marin Wolf Ridge:

[Pescado_Rojo 19426]

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yknow, watching the Klunkerz vid, I kind of marveled at revered frame builders RItchey, Fisher (to the extent he actually built any, probably designed some) and some of the others, with no engineering education at all.  And big money Specialized ripping off RItchey and Fisher.

And then Cunningham and Mantis.  

And then it starts to make sense when you read that full sus bikes have advanced by leaps and bounds in the last 10 years or so.  I think they finally have engineers or people who have at least studied kinematics doing frames and suspensions.

I've never been a fan of Specialized. It seems like they mix and match components rather than build with complete gruppos, which makes it hard to comparison shop. They also claim to have custom valving in their suspensions but they always seem to be a tier below everything else at the price point. They are kind of like the Tag Heuer of bikes. Decent, big name recognition, but it seems like there's something I like better at every price point. 

[TwiceHorn 31509]

28 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I've never been a fan of Specialized. It seems like they mix and match components rather than build with complete gruppos, which makes it hard to comparison shop. They also claim to have custom valving in their suspensions but they always seem to be a tier below everything else at the price point. They are kind of like the Tag Heuer of bikes. Decent, big name recognition, but it seems like there's something I like better at every price point. 

Not a fan of Spesh, or Trek, really.  I agree that the smaller makers seem to offer more compelling bikes.  I just cited to Specialized because you'd think they'd have been first or early to actually engineer frames and suspensions, just because of their size (and that they haven't changed hands a bunch of different times).  And, in recent cases, they've pretty severely over-engineered some things.

Also, not to be a techno-dickhead.  I know that people can become skilled technicians in various things without formal education.  But I think bikes have benefited a lot recently from finite element modeling and kinematic simulations that engineers brought to the table fairly recently.  Of course, you can also piss on Shimano and SRAM, who employ a bunch of engineers, for not seizing on things like disc brakes much earlier, for example.

Edited May 1, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Knoxtnhorn 6061]

16 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

@Knoxtnhorn Got out to Squabble Creek today.  Nice little trail, nice woods.  Not a whole lot going on, but the first mile or so may be the twistiest climbing in DFW.  I enjoyed it, but probably not enough to make a 30 mile trek very often.  If it's 8 miles from the house, I'd say ride the shit out of it.

Holy cow.  We must have just missed each other.  I went, now, yesterday as well.  It was pretty cool.  I wasn't a huge fan of the first couple of miles with all the roots; however, the rest of the trail was really fun.  I think I'm going again today.

[Knoxtnhorn 6061]

Round trip, house + trail was right under 20 miles so, perfect for me.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Knoxtnhorn

[Ths71 472]

Not a fan of Spesh, or Trek, really.  I agree that the smaller makers seem to offer more compelling bikes.  I just cited to Specialized because you'd think they'd have been first or early to actually engineer frames and suspensions, just because of their size (and that they haven't changed hands a bunch of different times).  And, in recent cases, they've pretty severely over-engineered some things.
Also, not to be a techno-dickhead.  I know that people can become skilled technicians in various things without formal education.  But I think bikes have benefited a lot recently from finite element modeling and kinematic simulations that engineers brought to the table fairly recently.  Of course, you can also piss on Shimano and SRAM, who employ a bunch of engineers, for not seizing on things like disc brakes much earlier, for example.

One of the biggest innovations in the Cycling industry in ages was invented in the late 80s by a Dallas guy who was a windsurfer and in his Father’s real estate business.

The original R&D was done in his Dad’s machine shop in his garage in the University Park area.


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