The Surly Mountain Biking Thread

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

10 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I've never been a fan of Specialized. It seems like they mix and match components rather than build with complete gruppos, which makes it hard to comparison shop. They also claim to have custom valving in their suspensions but they always seem to be a tier below everything else at the price point. They are kind of like the Tag Heuer of bikes. Decent, big name recognition, but it seems like there's something I like better at every price point. 

I'll always have a soft spot for specialized since my very first real mtb back in 1998 was a rockhopper.  I believe one of the last steel frames they made.  

But yea they seem to be overpriced for what amounts to nothing special.  

[TwiceHorn 31443]

1 hour ago, Ths71 said:

One of the biggest innovations in the Cycling industry in ages was invented in the late 80s by a Dallas guy who was a windsurfer and in his Father’s real estate business.

The original R&D was done in his Dad’s machine shop in his garage in the University Park area.


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What was it?

It is certainly true that discrete innovations come from somewhat unlikely sources at times.  But I think things like full suspension frames and their kinematics benefit from systematic engineering analysis over time.  You can do the geometric aspect of kinematic design pretty easily on paper, but when you start incorporating mass-spring-damper effects from suspensions, computer modeling really opens up the analysis.

One example I'm thinking of is that lockouts on shocks are largely a thing of the past and by most accounts unnecessary now because the kinematics are so good.

Edited May 1, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31443]

11 hours ago, Braff Zacklin said:

Funny thing, but the Pro Floater design apparently wasn't an evolutionary dead end. Meet its distant ancestor, the 2019 Marin Wolf Ridge:

Yeah, I noted that resemblance.

[Ths71 472]

What was it?
It is certainly true that discrete innovations come from somewhat unlikely sources at times.  But I think things like full suspension frames and their kinematics benefit from systematic engineering analysis over time.  You can do the geometric aspect of kinematic design pretty easily on paper, but when you start incorporating mass-spring-damper effects from suspensions, computer modeling really opens up the analysis.
One example I'm thinking of is that lockouts on shocks are largely a thing of the past and by most accounts unnecessary now because the kinematics are so good.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/08/origins-how-the-aheadset-threadless-headset-changed-bikes-forever/


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[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

13 hours ago, Braff Zacklin said:

Funny thing, but the Pro Floater design apparently wasn't an evolutionary dead end. Meet its distant ancestor, the 2019 Marin Wolf Ridge:

My first real mountain bike was a Marin Pine Mountain circa 1991. It was black with orange trim and looked like a Halloween decoration. It was the previous model year, so I caught it on sale. Mostly XT with a few LX bits. I added a Rock Shox Mag 21, onza bar ends, and some OG SPDs, and thought it was the shit. 

[TwiceHorn 31443]

45 minutes ago, Ths71 said:

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/08/origins-how-the-aheadset-threadless-headset-changed-bikes-forever/


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Interdasting story.  His patent.  https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/95/81/a7/7186ad2dfc4bfa/US5095770.pdf

Didn't realize Cane Creek spun off Dia Compe.  Had wondered what happened to Dia Compe.

[TwiceHorn 31443]

9 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

My first real mountain bike was a Marin Pine Mountain circa 1991. It was black with orange trim and looked like a Halloween decoration. It was the previous model year, so I caught it on sale. Mostly XT with a few LX bits. I added a Rock Shox Mag 21, onza bar ends, and some OG SPDs, and thought it was the shit. 

My ride is a Marin Rift Zone.  It's objectionable by your standard as not using a gruppo (NX der, but FSA cranks and Shimano brakes).  It's a great bike for the money and I took the risk about riding upgrades versus riding up grades and it has paid off as I ride up grades far more often now.

They re-did their line under a guy that came from Specialized and really hit the ball out of the park in the low-mid-price range.

Edited May 1, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

My ride is a Marin Rift Zone.  It's objectionable by your standard as not using a gruppo (NX der, but FSA cranks and Shimano brakes).  It's a great bike for the money and I took the risk about riding upgrades versus riding up grades and it has paid off as I ride up grades far more often now.

They re-did their line under a guy that came from Specialized and really hit the ball out of the park in the low-mid-price range.

I covered a lot of ground on that old Pine Mountain. They are great bikes, and I think a great value as they tend to fly a little under the radar, and it seems you usually find them at smaller shops. (at least that's been my experience) As soon as little Rojo slows down on the growth spurts, I'm going to get him a decent mountain bike. Marin will for sure be on the list to look at when the time comes. 

[TwiceHorn 31443]

37 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I covered a lot of ground on that old Pine Mountain. They are great bikes, and I think a great value as they tend to fly a little under the radar, and it seems you usually find them at smaller shops. (at least that's been my experience) As soon as little Rojo slows down on the growth spurts, I'm going to get him a decent mountain bike. Marin will for sure be on the list to look at when the time comes. 

Good deal.  They have a Hawk Hill 24" I think for the budding shredder.  Their lowest-end bikes I think have thru-axle dropouts, but use QR endcaps and hubs to save some coin, yet preserve the ability to upgrade fully.  Marin I think has had ups and downs and kind of been passed around corporately.  Currently in a decided up phase.

I got mine at Performance Bike before they tanked.  They were $100 off MSRP and I started looking two weeks before a "double-points" weekend.  I therefore got mine for about $1500, but lost half the points when they went busto, so it wound up costing 1650.  Total steal.

Edited May 1, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Good deal.  They have a Hawk Hill 24" I think for the budding shredder.  Their lowest-end bikes I think have thru-axle dropouts, but use QR endcaps and hubs to save some coin, yet preserve the ability to upgrade fully.  Marin I think has had ups and downs and kind of been passed around corporately.  Currently in a decided up phase.

He's 13, and he's grown about 2 inches in the past couple months and it feels like there's more coming. I'm thinking when he gets to where he can fit a medium 27.5" bike, I can get him on something that might last a couple years. 

[Ths71 472]

Interdasting story.  His patent.  https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/95/81/a7/7186ad2dfc4bfa/US5095770.pdf
Didn't realize Cane Creek spun off Dia Compe.  Had wondered what happened to Dia Compe.

He used to give us some of the prototypes to test before he met with them.

I also have a prototype roller clutch freehub he designed like shown in the article. Still rolling along on my wife’s Breezer.



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[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

Wow, love the surly bike history show and tell.  Especially since I've been in the mode of selling off or giving away all my old bike parts.  

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

Some here had to have had one of those funky ass softride bikes right?  

[KuЯdt 248]

Mostly XT with a few LX bits. I added a Rock Shox Mag 21, onza bar ends, and some OG SPDs, and thought it was the shit. 

That brings back memories. After bending too many forks, my local shop guy hooked me up with an Original RockShox RS-1. I couldn't afford a Mag 21. It sucked, but at least I wasn't bending forks anymore.
And btw, yours was the shit with that setup.

Looked just like this, pink lettering and all.

[Al_4_ISU 12454]

Last day of corn planting. 3 weeks ahead of last year. Dry weather pattern seems to be settling in. It’s going to be MTB May, baby.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

On 5/1/2020 at 12:00 PM, Pescado_Rojo said:

I added a Rock Shox Mag 21, onza bar ends, and some OG SPDs, and thought it was the shit. 

Daang, bar ends?  Those seemed to have disappeared off the face of the Earth. I never got into those.  

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

8 hours ago, KuЯdt said:

 

 

That brings back memories. After bending too many forks, my local shop guy hooked me up with an Original RockShox RS-1. I couldn't afford a Mag 21. It sucked, but at least I wasn't bending forks anymore.
And btw, yours was the shit with that setup.

Looked just like this, pink lettering and all.



 

 

A couple years after I started riding I upgraded to a Mountain Goat Whiskeytown racer. I was working part time at a bike shop, so they let me employee purchase the frame and all the goodies. I went with an XTR drivetrain, XT brakes (last year before V brakes, and I never upgraded). Ringle stem, and another Mag21. I’ve still got that bike, but rebuild kits for a Mag21 are impossible to find, so 7-8 years ago I ran across a NOS Manitou M2 with an uncut steerer tube and threw that on. I still ride it around the neighborhood from time to time, but my back hurts the next day. MTB geometry has come a long way. 

[wd40 1976]

39 minutes ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

Daang, bar ends?  Those seemed to have disappeared off the face of the Earth. I never got into those.  

oh c'mon.  they were great for hooking vines and bushes at speed.

my first  mtb was a Trek 820.  great for riding to campus and back.  put a Rock Shox Quad 21R fork on it and thought Imwas a badass.  did Walnut once with a couple coworkers.  first real trail ride. that was fun. then we went and rode City Park, and I was hooked for life.

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

I broke a helmet a city park once

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

I never actually finished a ride at City park.  Always got lost and ended up on a road and just took the road back to the car.

[Your Mom 4805]

I’ve ridden a few times over the years with WD40 and the first was City Park probably 15+ years ago. He kicked my ass up and down those chunky ledges like a billy goat. It was as humbling back then as it is now. I tried City Park a few other times since then but it’s never been my cup of tea.  I need a longer run-up for those kinds of ledges and chunk. 
 

My first mountain bike was a GT hardtail with the triple triangle I bought used for $150 in Hawaii in ‘95. It had some kind of old cheap spring only Rock Shox and GripShift. I didn’t know shit about bikes and have no idea what kind of group it had. I brought it back to Texas and rode the BCG a few hundred times on it. Upgraded the shock at some point, don’t remember what to, whatever the guy at the shop said i needed i guess. Been though a few others since then and about to pass my Horsethief down to my son and get myself a nice nimble 27.5 trail bike. Scouring the used ads every day. 

[KuЯdt 248]

33 minutes ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

I never actually finished a ride at City park.  Always got lost and ended up on a road and just took the road back to the car.

You got lost on a ~5 mile loop trail?  😃

[wd40 1976]

1 hour ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I broke a helmet a city park once

bet it was like my first one.  nothing to hold the foam together but two spandex panels joined by some mesh over the middle.

[TwiceHorn 31443]

1 hour ago, Your Mom said:

I’ve ridden a few times over the years with WD40 and the first was City Park probably 15+ years ago. He kicked my ass up and down those chunky ledges like a billy goat. It was as humbling back then as it is now. I tried City Park a few other times since then but it’s never been my cup of tea.  I need a longer run-up for those kinds of ledges and chunk. 
 

My first mountain bike was a GT hardtail with the triple triangle I bought used for $150 in Hawaii in ‘95. It had some kind of old cheap spring only Rock Shox and GripShift. I didn’t know shit about bikes and have no idea what kind of group it had. I brought it back to Texas and rode the BCG a few hundred times on it. Upgraded the shock at some point, don’t remember what to, whatever the guy at the shop said i needed i guess. Been though a few others since then and about to pass my Horsethief down to my son and get myself a nice nimble 27.5 trail bike. Scouring the used ads every day. 

I'm just beginning, after several years of riding, to acquire a taste for climbing and descending rooty stuff, because that's mostly what we've got around here.  Definitely an acquired taste. 

Most roots, though, don't stop you dead if you don't get your wheel quite on top of them.  I have no skillz for that.  There's one limestone stairstep around maybe six feet tops.  At times, it's worn down either with channels or rounded edges and doesn't completely defy me.  Currently, it's pretty square and just a no-go.  And I really dislike dabbing/falling on that shit.  Hurts.  Knee and elbow pads would help, but because it's one of a very few on that trail or anywhere, it just doesn't seem worth it.

[TwiceHorn 31443]

Just curious, how many of you guys ride carbon frames?

What do you like/dislike most about carbon?

[Al_4_ISU 12454]

Celebrated the end of corn planting by checking out some new trails. Sidie Hollow In Viroqua, WI. A bit of a drive for me, but not terribly far from where my in laws have their house boat. Great trail system. Had some insanely flowy machine cut stuff. Lots of classic hand dug single track too. There was some crazy rocky stuff that was over my head, but overall I had a great ride.

 

 

 

 

[wd40 1976]

hit some new stuff today, in an old area.  re-learning how to jump, per the video KuRdt posted a couple pages back. some hits, some misses.

kinda ready for the gyms and whatnot to open back up.  the local parks are pretty crowded, right now.

 

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

7 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Just curious, how many of you guys ride carbon frames?

What do you like/dislike most about carbon?

subscribed

[TwiceHorn 31443]

2 hours ago, wd40 said:

hit some new stuff today, in an old area.  re-learning how to jump, per the video KuRdt posted a couple pages back. some hits, some misses.

kinda ready for the gyms and whatnot to open back up.  the local parks are pretty crowded, right now.

 

Good to see that others bust out with f-bombs when they dab and flub short of crashing.

The critical question is, and I don't think you have offered evidence before, is do you exhort yourself with felicitations like "come on, pussy" or "go fucker" when you are climbing things?

[Al_4_ISU 12454]

I frequently verbalize my belief that I’m a fat piece of shit while riding.

[Your Mom 4805]

I don't ride a carbon mountain bike but my next bike probably will be.  Not because I'm looking for carbon specifically but because I'm no longer too worried about it.  I've owned a couple of carbon road bikes and the improved ride quality is very noticeable.  The more I read reviews the more I think they are just as durable as aluminum when it comes to bumps, jumps, and drops that I might do.  Throw a rock at it from the side and it might break but the stuff I ride isn't going to break it.  I don't need carbon or the lighter weight, not trying to set any speed records, but pretty soon the frames you want will only be available in carbon.  

 

[TwiceHorn 31443]

Yeah, my only worry about carbon is the horror stories of dropping the bike on something and dinging the frame in a way that compromises it.  I don't mean drops while riding, either.  I've heard two personally.  They may have been able to have them repaired.

Also, ride quality is something you hear more and more.  I think some of the earlier frames were built a bit stiff.

Edited May 3, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

Yea, I had two carbon handlebars. Went back to aluminum, I didn't trust the carbon.

[KuЯdt 248]

hit some new stuff today, in an old area.  re-learning how to jump, per the video KuRdt posted a couple pages back. some hits, some misses.
kinda ready for the gyms and whatnot to open back up.  the local parks are pretty crowded, right now.
 

That trail looks fun as shit.

[Braff Zacklin 13556]

19 minutes ago, KuЯdt said:

5 hours ago, wd40 said:

hit some new stuff today, in an old area.  re-learning how to jump, per the video KuRdt posted a couple pages back. some hits, some misses.
kinda ready for the gyms and whatnot to open back up.  the local parks are pretty crowded, right now.
 

That trail looks fun as shit.

Seconded.

As for jumping "how tos," this is my favorite vid on the subject:

Love how Sam breaks everything down and insists you don't need to send anything other than speed and composure if the jump is properly built. The look at 4:15 is me half the time. That subtlety between unweighting the bike and allowing the suspension to naturally rebound versus forcing it to spring back suddenly is still elusive on a consistent basis.

[KuЯdt 248]

Just curious, how many of you guys ride carbon frames?
What do you like/dislike most about carbon?

I do. Biggest advantage is weight savings. I like light bikes. The other thing is ride quality. Carbon rides much better than aluminum. With the latter, I felt like trail chatter and bumps got vibrated right into my bones. Not the case with carbon.
I guess the obvious dislike is cost, but I tend to ride my bikes for many years so the investment is worth it to me.

I've only had my current bike for a month, but the frame has a lifetime warranty. My previous bike, the Tallboy, is also carbon and I rode it for 8 years with no issues and it took lots of abuse.

[wd40 1976]

@KuЯdt

2x, to your carbon question, a buddy of mine is eyeballing the new aluminum ibis, which is a rarity for them.  iirc, they were one of the early converts to carbon.  I guess it's mostly to keep the price down, since everything else on bikes is getting so expensive ($1200 forks, wtf).  I'm gonna ride metal as long as I can.

to your colorful exhortation question, yes, all the time.  today was the first time I went for that high mark around that tree.  I messed up the line to get up the other side twice.  the f-bomb was more for the effort to turn the gear I was in.

here's another example (a minor rework of the last southy vid, now glute-free, but still Iggy).  pissed that I chickened out on the huck (again) and took the corkscrew route down and around it.  

 

[TwiceHorn 31443]

I talk to myself a lot when I ride.  I'm alone most of the time, so it's usually just the unheard ramblings of the mildly insane.

Occasionally, I come upon other riders or hikers after a nice stream of filth and it's a little embarrassing.  And yeah it frequently has to do with being in too high a gear or otherwise losing momentum near the crest or over an obstacle on a climb.  Wheel washouts on overcooked or underleaned turns get some nice ones too.

I was talking shit when I encountered the blek snek also.  I was talking to the bobcat I encountered, to include "here kitty."  I greet bunnies and lizards.

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

Got out for a bit this afternoon. Not a great pic, but the drop off into this creek wash is 4ish ft, maybe a little more. Any steeper and I wouldn’t be able to ride it down. I’m working up the nerve to drop in, but it’s a funky line with not much run up, and a very low limb I have to just about put my chin on the bars to get under. My pack usually brushes it as I go under, so I worry about carrying enough speed to get a clean launch.

[TwiceHorn 31443]

11 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Got out for a bit this afternoon. Not a great pic, but the drop off into this creek wash is 4ish ft, maybe a little more. Any steeper and I wouldn’t be able to ride it down. I’m working up the nerve to drop in, but it’s a funky line with not much run up, and a very low limb I have to just about put my chin on the bars to get under. My pack usually brushes it as I go under, so I worry about carrying enough speed to get a clean launch.

So you're saying you can roll down it, but you want to ride it as a drop/jump?  Isn't it disappointing that you take pix of intimidating trail features and they kind of look like nothing?

Low branches are kind of a bane of mine.  In early riding, I frequently misjudged how low I needed to get or rose up too early and bonked my head or at least grazed it or my back on multiple occasions.  Now I get about as low as I can go for any/all of them and usually drop speed unless I'm pretty familiar with it. And, of course, sometimes a limb is lower or the trail higher than it was the last time I rode it, so there can be that. They remain a fair impediment to balls-out riding for me.

Edited May 4, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

So you're saying you can roll down it, but you want to ride it as a drop/jump?  Isn't it disappointing that you take pix of intimidating trail features and they kind of look like nothing?

Low branches are kind of a bane of mine.  In early riding, I frequently misjudged how low I needed to get or rose up too early and bonked my head or at least grazed it or my back on multiple occasions.  Now I get about as low as I can go for any/all of them and usually drop speed unless I'm pretty familiar with it. And, of course, sometimes a limb is lower or the trail higher than it was the last time I rode it, so there can be that. They remain a fair impediment to balls-out riding for me.

yea, next time I'll stand in the bottom and take a picture looking back up and see if it helps. If you look at the left end of my handlebar, you can kind of see the line of the ledge sloping down and to the left. That side is pretty much a shear drop in. If you look where my left shifter clamps to the bar, you can see the dirt slope where I ride it down. I'd like to carry more speed and drop in on the left side. 

[wd40 1976]

15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I talk to myself a lot when I ride.  I'm alone most of the time, so it's usually just the unheard ramblings of the mildly insane.

Occasionally, I come upon other riders or hikers after a nice stream of filth and it's a little embarrassing.  And yeah it frequently has to do with being in too high a gear or otherwise losing momentum near the crest or over an obstacle on a climb.  Wheel washouts on overcooked or underleaned turns get some nice ones too.

I was talking shit when I encountered the blek snek also.  I was talking to the bobcat I encountered, to include "here kitty."  I greet bunnies and lizards.

 

[TwiceHorn 31443]

3 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

yea, next time I'll stand in the bottom and take a picture looking back up and see if it helps. If you look at the left end of my handlebar, you can kind of see the line of the ledge sloping down and to the left. That side is pretty much a shear drop in. If you look where my left shifter clamps to the bar, you can see the dirt slope where I ride it down. I'd like to carry more speed and drop in on the left side. 

Yeah, I see it.  Didn't mean to indicate that I didn't, but wasn't sure what you were saying about how you wanted to ride it.

I'm kind of the king of underwhelming trail pix, and getting suckered by flat-looking videos, so I am getting decent at analyzing pix and vids for climbs and drops.

[TwiceHorn 31443]

5 hours ago, wd40 said:

 

I suppose I should clarify that I only cursed upon encountering the snek that appeared to be some form of pit viper well within striking range. 

I'm nice to the rest of the animals, even the sneks when they don't catch me by surprise.  I may greet walker's dogs more frequently than the walkers themselves.

[Al_4_ISU 12454]

Best ride of the year. Made it my mission to hit 6 trouble spots at my usual area. I cleared 4 of them, including 2 I’ve never gotten through before. Both are drastic, rooty climbs that immediately follow other obstacles. While I definitely cursed at myself in spots, I made sure to let some audible whoops to celebrate the good.

[TwiceHorn 31443]

15 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Best ride of the year. Made it my mission to hit 6 trouble spots at my usual area. I cleared 4 of them, including 2 I’ve never gotten through before. Both are drastic, rooty climbs that immediately follow other obstacles. While I definitely cursed at myself in spots, I made sure to let some audible whoops to celebrate the good.

There's a couple of tree gates on the trails where I think of you every time I encounter them ("Al would hate these").  Two are just an absolute no go for me, the third is that Twin Towers between the two big trees, which really isn't much of an issue at bar level, but a problem down at pedal level.  I have been cruising that one at near speed.

[Al_4_ISU 12454]

44 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

There's a couple of tree gates on the trails where I think of you every time I encounter them ("Al would hate these").  Two are just an absolute no go for me, the third is that Twin Towers between the two big trees, which really isn't much of an issue at bar level, but a problem down at pedal level.  I have been cruising that one at near speed.

I've gotten a lot more comfortable with trees, but mostly on trails that I know well.

You would have chuckled at me on Sunday.  That park was mostly devoid of significant gates, but there was one between two large oak trees, and they built a wooden ramp that climbed about 3 feet off the ground and came back down.  I passed through that spot twice - the first time somewhat early in the ride and I was fresh - but the second was towards the end, and I was wilting some.  For some unknown reason, the instinct in my brain that lead me to touch a lot of stove tops as a kid started to kick in as I passed the trees and began to go down the wooden ramp.  I started to veer off the ramp about 2' off the ground, which would have led to me scraping/cutting the shit out of my leg.  Somehow I regained control, straightened, and descended unharmed.  It had to look comical, though, and I'm sure I yelled out some obscenities in the process.

[TwiceHorn 31443]

3 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I've gotten a lot more comfortable with trees, but mostly on trails that I know well.

You would have chuckled at me on Sunday.  That park was mostly devoid of significant gates, but there was one between two large oak trees, and they built a wooden ramp that climbed about 3 feet off the ground and came back down.  I passed through that spot twice - the first time somewhat early in the ride and I was fresh - but the second was towards the end, and I was wilting some.  For some unknown reason, the instinct in my brain that lead me to touch a lot of stove tops as a kid started to kick in as I passed the trees and began to go down the wooden ramp.  I started to veer off the ramp about 2' off the ground, which would have led to me scraping/cutting the shit out of my leg.  Somehow I regained control, straightened, and descended unharmed.  It had to look comical, though, and I'm sure I yelled out some obscenities in the process.

Those kind of a-frame ramps confound me a little.  I'm not a jumper yet, so just rolling them seems a little pointless, although there's one on one trail that actually gives you a little speed/momentum bump before a steep climb.  If it's over a tree or something, that makes sense, but there are a few that are just kind of sitting there in the middle of the trail and some even have a flat top as if it's a tabletop jump.

Some of them I can't remember or tell whether they are a jump ramp or have a down side as I approach, so I just avoid them, if I can.  Sometimes there's no bypass and I have to assume they aren't forcing you to jump.

Question for the better riders:  it seems there might be value to popping off short drops as far as loading/unloading, composure in the air, and landing in preparation for learning how to jump.  Is that accurate or are the two just different enough that you can't "mix them"?  

RIght now, I have trouble hitting even small little jumps at speed because I have no feeling for "what comes next."  If I could make myself ride the street, I might be able to figure that out some with driveway apron curbs, I don't know.

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

Anyone got a good solution to keep the sweat out of your eyes? I use the old school rolled up blue bandanna and it works for right about an hour, but once it stops I'm practically blind. 

[AUinHsv 579]

21 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Anyone got a good solution to keep the sweat out of your eyes? I use the old school rolled up blue bandanna and it works for right about an hour, but once it stops I'm practically blind. 

Used to carry multiple sweat bands on long road rides. For some reason my sweat poured only in the right eye but yep it was blinding.