Breaking news - Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris on fire

[NoRagrets 1133]

To think, this all could have been prevented with some water planes...

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19243]

Selma Hayak’s billionaire husband has pledged 100 million towards the rebuild. Dunno if that’s Euros, Dollars, or Bitcoin.

He is the head of the Kering Group, owners of Gucci, Saint Laurent, Balenciaga, Alexander McQueen, etc...

[Armybrat 41005]

I had never heard of him before this, but it is good to see them getting the money rolling. Doubtful there will be any shortage of funds to rebuild though.

[Longhorn94 2458]

Apparently the wood needed to replace the roof has been growing at Versailles for hundreds of years. 

[El Diablo 4232]

Gucci Cathedral at Ile de Vuitton? No, that would only happen in the US.

[Parliament 14377]

1 hour ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Our building techniques commonpy used are not designed to withstand 800 years. That doesn't mean we aren't perfectly capable of engineering something designed to last 2000 years that looks the same. Our biggest setback would be lack of old growth timber with clean straigh wood.

This.  It was built with stone and hardwood at a time when regular buildings used dirt, thatch and animal skins.  Build something out of reinforced concrete set down on bedrock, stainless steel, etc.  It'll last a thousand years with good maintenance. 

ETA

Not saying the repairs should be of the "post-modern architectural" type.  Just saying 21st century technology can be used behind the scenes.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Parliament

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Parliament said:

This.  It was built with stone and hardwood at a time when regular buildings used dirt, thatch and animal skins.  Build something out of reinforced concrete set down on bedrock, stainless steel, etc.  It'll last a thousand years with good maintenance. 

The Pantheon is a 2,000 yr old conc. structure. Yep, it's been done.

[MrPhlegm 3413]

Apparently the wood needed to replace the roof has been growing at Versailles for hundreds of years. 

Oh great, now I'm craving ropa vieja, moros, maduros, & tres leches.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 minutes ago, MrPhlegm said:

Oh great, now I'm craving ropa vieja, moros, maduros, & tres leches.

 

Versailles is in Spain ?

[XYZ 2154]

I don’t think that steel-reinforced-concrete can last hundreds of years.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4980]

Just reinforce it with scaffolding.

[Guest Lobo]

It worked in Haiti

[mdmost 43310]

According to reports on Twitter, all 3 rose windows were not damaged including the Rosace Nord which has stood unchanged for 800 years. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by mdmost

[thrillhammer 684]

8 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I put this in my travel thread, but I thought I would share a few of my favorite photo memories of Our Lady.  May the rebuilding not take 200 years.

https://www.mlleshetravels.com/single-post/2019/04/15/Remembering-Notre-Dame

great pics penelope.  good to see it again in all it's glory.  i was there last june and though not a catholic still extremely moved by the history, architecture, and grandeur of the place.   it will never be the same.

[phdhorn 6224]

Not sure people know that the spire was a very late addition and is "only" 150 years old (1840's). 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, XYZ said:

I don’t think that steel-reinforced-concrete can last hundreds of years.

True, iron expands as it ages and rusts, creating expansion that cracks the concrete further exposing the iron to more rust.  There are better, more stable  material that can create tensile strength in concrete (fiberglass strands).  No reinforcing in the pantheon, it relies on mass, and lighter concrete as it reaches the oculus (+ or - 5 types of concrete in the construction).

[Armybrat 41005]

I seem to recall another iconic building that was burned by a mob of uncivilized arsonists about 204 years ago. It was totally rebuilt soon afterwards, and again in the late 1940s when it was totally gutted for a renovation (in which a steel beam frame was built inside the old stone walls).

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Armybrat

[G650 14302]

It has to be stone if you want it to last. Nothing else is close.

[retread 2951]

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

It has to be stone if you want it to last. Nothing else is close.

Ciao bella....

[Wally Pryor 5311]

52 minutes ago, retread said:

 

Fantastic. 

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

53 minutes ago, retread said:

 

Great news, a couple of bottles of this and they should be good to go. 

[Parliament 14377]

You know how rumors go.  I was told this morning that it has a "roof" (presumably stone) under the wood roof that burned.  That roof survived and preserved much of the interior.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Parliament said:

You know how rumors go.  I was told this morning that it has a "roof" (presumably stone) under the wood roof that burned.  That roof survived and preserved much of the interior.

Well it's a big building so yeah that's probably true in portions, the main Nave and transepts (congregation and flanking choir spaces) no, it's a soaring stone walled wood topped roof structure.

[Jiggy-Z 3469]

59 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

True, iron expands as it ages and rusts, creating expansion that cracks the concrete further exposing the iron to more rust.  There are better, more stable  material that can create tensile strength in concrete (fiberglass strands).  No reinforcing in the pantheon, it relies on mass, and lighter concrete as it reaches the oculus (+ or - 5 types of concrete in the construction).

This is not entirely true.  In a non corrosive environment, untreated rebar can maintain its integrity for many generations, especially if the concrete is maintained.  Even hairline cracks can be sealed to prevent decay.  Even if rebar has some rust on it prior to concrete placement it tends to help with the concrete's bond to the material.

Certain highway construction will use epoxy coated rebar (the light green rebar you might see on projects), where there is a seaside environment or use of winter deicing salts.

In other projects, electronic sensing equipment will prevent the use of traditional rebar and  fiberglass bars will be used as well as fiberglass fibers, although I have never seen these techniques used for a significant span length.

Many of the box culvert bridges in Texas that were constructed during WWII used bamboo for reinforcing due to steel shortages.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

This is not entirely true.  In a non corrosive environment, untreated rebar can maintain its integrity for many generations, especially if the concrete is maintained.  Even hairline cracks can be sealed to prevent decay.  Even if rebar has some rust on it prior to concrete placement it tends to help with the concrete's bond to the material.

Certain highway construction will use epoxy coated rebar (the light green rebar you might see on projects), where there is a seaside environment or use of winter deicing salts.

In other projects, electronic sensing equipment will prevent the use of traditional rebar and  fiberglass bars will be used as well as fiberglass fibers, although I have never seen these techniques used for a significant span length.

Many of the box culvert bridges in Texas that were constructed during WWII used bamboo for reinforcing due to steel shortages.

Thanks, Yeah for sure there are measures that can be taken to prolong the life.  And yeah fiberglass at present can't replace long span steel I believe, but I can see a day when fiberglass shaped sub structures will be used to greater effect.

Keeping rebar or W sections from expanding is the trick, correct ?

[Trey3216 15380]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

I seem to recall another iconic building that was burned by a mob of uncivilized arsonists about 204 years ago. It was totally rebuilt soon afterwards, and again in the late 1940s when it was totally gutted for a renovation (in which a steel beam frame was built inside the old stone walls).

 

So were you a riveter or plasterer?  

[MNLonghornFUKM 8916]

Great news, a couple of bottles of this and they should be good to go. 

I know of a pretty good window cleaning business in Fargo here...I'll PM ND to see if they want their number

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, mdmost said:

According to reports on Twitter, all 3 rose windows were not damaged including the Rosace Nord which has stood unchanged for 800 years. 

That the rose windows weren't damaged speaks to how large the building is, and stunning good fortune.  They are simply irreplaceable. My first thought yesterday was how quickly do they fail from the heat.

[Jiggy-Z 3469]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That the rose windows weren't damaged speaks to how large the building is, and stunning good fortune.  They are simply irreplaceable. My first thought yesterday was how quickly do they fail from the heat.

I thought all the glass in those windows has been replaced over the years.

[Jiggy-Z 3469]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Thanks, Yeah for sure there are measures that can be taken to prolong the life.  And yeah fiberglass at present can't replace long span steel I believe, but I can see a day when fiberglass shaped sub structures will be used to greater effect.

Keeping rebar or W sections from expanding is the trick, correct ?

There are many tricks.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I thought all the glass in those windows has been replaced over the years.

 I thought they were original, looks like they weren't.. what a gyp !!

[retread 2951]

How long would a steel-framed structure built today be expected to last? Like a 20 story office building.

[Bevo 13637]

2 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

There are many tricks.

Yeah, I have been building a saltwater pool and was curious what was out there besides standard rebar. There are a lot of new composite materials and the one I would have probably gone with would have been carbon fiber rebar because it can bend and is non corrosive and a lot lighter than standard rebar. The downside is I couldn't figure out where to purchase it or find a crew that was knowledgeable. It was much easier to stay with the tried and true. Interesting reads, though (if you are a nerd).

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

7 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I thought all the glass in those windows has been replaced over the years.

They have at least most of them. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, retread said:

How long would a steel-framed structure built today be expected to last? Like a 20 story office building.

First the steel has to be fireproofed, and designed for seismic loading (depending on the zone).

[Bevo 13637]

2 minutes ago, retread said:

How long would a steel-framed structure built today be expected to last? Like a 20 story office building.

You would think a large structure like the twin towers would be built to last for many generations.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Bevo said:

You would think a large structure like the twin towers would be built to last for many generations.

Value engineering.  The extra loads on the floors below the deforming steel weren't designed to carry the extra load, pancake occurs.

[DoobieWah 1476]

11 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

That one is fake too.  The moon is the size of Jupiter in that one.

[DoobieWah 1476]

TP

 

But wanted to add:

I doubt it will be rebuilt as a religious structure. Ultimately it will be rebuilt as a museum. There are  just not enough practicing Catholics left in Paris to bother with the expense of rebuilding as a sanctuary.

 

My $0.02, but I would love to be wrong.

 

And I'm not even Christian, much less Catholic.

Edited April 16, 2019 by DoobieWah

[DoobieWah 1476]

TP

Edited April 16, 2019 by DoobieWah

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

220, 221 whatever it takes

[G650 14302]

34 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

In a non corrosive environment, untreated rebar can maintain its integrity for many generations, especially if the concrete is maintained.

Certainly, but many generations is merely a blip on the radar.

[retread 2951]

11 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

First the steel has to be fireproofed, and designed for seismic loading (depending on the zone).

It's an interesting contrast between us and Europe. Apart from any major catastrophes or wars, I wonder if buildings like the the Empire State Building will be here in 500 years. I'm sure there are maintenance contingencies to mitigate aging of the structure.

[phdhorn 6224]

15 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I thought all the glass in those windows has been replaced over the years.

The South Window (the largest and 3rd oldest) has a mixture of original glass and later repairs (most especially the 19th Century).
The West Window has almost all newer glass (from the 19th Century).
The North Window (2nd oldest) is almost entirely original glass from 1250.

The vertical windows under the North Window are all repainted from the 19th Century; some of the glass is original.
Almost all of the clestory windows along both sides of the nave are new glass, done in the 1960's (the preexisting glass was all restored in the 19th Century).

[clapclapclap 9000]

1 hour ago, phdhorn said:

Not sure people know that the spire was a very late addition and is "only" 150 years old (1840's). 

Cross it off then?

[Chad Fuck 17854]

32 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

So were you a riveter or plasterer?  

They didn't have rivets during the War of 1812.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

Worth wondering about what else this kind of power could be marshaled to do given the right appeal, but I am impressed and heartened that, in one day, almost $700 million has been pledged to restore the cathedral.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47943705

 

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Chad Fuck said:

They didn't have rivets during the War of 1812.

He's talking about the renovations in the 40's I'm guessing which for sure would have been riveted.

[phdhorn 6224]

Just now, clapclapclap said:

Cross it off then?

NIce pun, brah!

Actually there's been some kind of spire there from the earliest days, but they kept getting messed up/breaking off (much like the guy in Holy Grail who built 6 castles on top of each previous sinking castle).  Before the spire was reconstructed and re-positioned in the mid-19th Century, it had blown off in a bad windstorm sometime in the 18th Century and nothing was sitting up there except for patches in the roof where it sat.  So it's fair to consider this latest spire pretty much Victorian.

I think they ought to put like a rotating laser on it that shoots holy imagery on nearby buildings, but that's just me.