What is up with the Aggies? (& Sharp, Perry, etc)

[CleverNickname 1320]

Not any drama with AD, I don't care about that. (well, its fun, but not for purposes of this thread)

I haven't been keeping up with higher education, but with Powers passing it has been on my mind. I know that UT regents and president resisted watering down the flagship, and for that Powers gets a lot of praise. At the time Perry and his crew announced an effort to make college more inexpensive, I was mostly supportive. I haven't really followed things closely. I have kids school age, and it strikes me that I'd like some good public institutions around that they could go to later. Plus good schools are good for Texas, generally. 

What is the deal with that 25x25 thing? Is A&M's rep backsliding? Is having more & cheaper education incompatible with having more Tier 1-ish public institutions in Texas? What is the reputation of schools like UT-Dallas, Houston, Tech, etc and how is that changing? 

[immortal13 4059]

I'm trying really, really hard to give a fuck....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, can't do it

[Hanrahan 1306]

Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it.

[Royalfan5 2354]

Well, you see the Corps singlehandly won every war, something something non-whites getting an education, something something saw em off, something something non-stem things existing, something somethings deciding to engage in sodomy under guise of hazing instead admitting you enjoy it.

[bolverk 29693]

I don't know what you're talking about with the 25x25 thing, but Carnegie has long been the judge on determining "Tier One" status and now Texas has several after they changed the definition (one could argue watered down). That said, several universities around the state have been striving to raise the bar but, apparently, Texas A&M is not one of them (they still qualify though).

These are the universities in Texas that Carnegie considers "Doctoral Universities: Very High Research Activity" which is their highest classification:

• The University of Texas at Arlington
• The University of Texas at Austin
• Texas A & M University-College Station
• University of North Texas
• The University of Texas at El Paso
• University of Houston
• Rice University
• Texas Tech University
• The University of Texas at Dallas

 

 

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

40 minutes ago, CleverNickname said:

Not any drama with AD, I don't care about that. (well, its fun, but not for purposes of this thread)

I haven't been keeping up with higher education, but with Powers passing it has been on my mind. I know that UT regents and president resisted watering down the flagship, and for that Powers gets a lot of praise. At the time Perry and his crew announced an effort to make college more inexpensive, I was mostly supportive. I haven't really followed things closely. I have kids school age, and it strikes me that I'd like some good public institutions around that they could go to later. Plus good schools are good for Texas, generally. 

What is the deal with that 25x25 thing? Is A&M's rep backsliding? Is having more & cheaper education incompatible with having more Tier 1-ish public institutions in Texas? What is the reputation of schools like UT-Dallas, Houston, Tech, etc and how is that changing? 

You used the one, perfect word for the whole thing: incompatible. A&M is a collection of incompatible goals, beliefs, and desires. Any time you see them trending towards the higher goals of academic or institutional excellence, or a higher ethical standard, it is an accident and you can be assured they will trend back toward their mean sooner than later. 

The blip we had to laugh our way through in the early to mid 90s, when gullible idiots like Texas Monthly insisted A&M had reached par with the University of Texas, was transitory and is now long gone, because Aggies can't separate or sublimate their basest instincts on a strategic, long-term basis.  

While the state could use a California style chain of excellent large publics, I just don't believe we'll ever get it unless the University of Texas system provides it. We're never going to see A&M, Tech, or UH on the level of even the second-gen Public Ivys like Arizona, Florida, or Ohio State. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by SwanderedTalent

[Trey3216 15348]

Whole lotta words on this page for the truth of the situation: aggy gonna aggy.  

[Texas Jeff 1945]

48 minutes ago, CleverNickname said:

I have kids school age, and it strikes me that I'd like some good public institutions around that they could go to later. Plus good schools are good for Texas, generally. 

In 1980, the University of Texas had 8,981 freshman on campus and a total enrollment of 46,148.  The population of Texas was 14.75 million.

In Fall 2018, the University of Texas had a freshman class size of 8,960 and had a total enrollment of 51,832.  The population of Texas is currently about 29 million.

UT hasn't grown much since 1980 and Texas has doubled.  So somewhere around the state we need room for at least another 9000 or so kids that would have gone to UT if the Texas had grown at the same rate as the population.  A&M is trying to solve this problem by getting bigger.  Texas, by staying the same size, is getting better just because it's harder to get in.  We need other schools around the state in the UT system to get bigger and better too, just to keep the same level of opportunity that Texans had in 1980.

The lege is helping by dumping money into UT-Dallas to attract kids.  As a result, UT-Dallas's SAT scores are on par with UT-Austin's.

Hopefully they keep going with other UT schools until we have a true California style system rather than two big schools plus everyone else.

[Murfdogg21 4413]

I’m getting tired of getting hit up by college of engineering and Texas Exes for the specific reason that higher tuition and operating expenses require more donations than ever. 

I have several data points of UT engineering undergrad tuition and fees between 1999 and 2015. Tuition has gone up more than 3x in less than in less than 20 years. Enrollment not significantly up. Faculty size approximately the same. UT and college of engineering still skimming 48% “overhead” off the top of every engineering professors’ grants. I don’t see the rationale for the tuition hike (aside from supply and demand, but I didn’t realize UT (the academic side) was a for-profit organization). I damn sure don’t want to hear about the need to donate directly to departments to improve the quality of education and research. 

Hopefully more legit tier 1 research universities emerge to compete, because the ROI on a UT engineering degree isn’t what it used to be. 

[atomheartbevo 89735]

1 hour ago, Trey3216 said:

Whole lotta words on this page for the truth of the situation: aggy gonna aggy.  

Perry supposedly turned down an offer to head Homeland Security.  That showed an amazing amount of clarity and intelligence that is unbefitting of an animal science graduate.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

In 1980, the University of Texas had 8,981 freshman on campus and a total enrollment of 46,148.  The population of Texas was 14.75 million.

In Fall 2018, the University of Texas had a freshman class size of 8,960 and had a total enrollment of 51,832.  The population of Texas is currently about 29 million.

UT hasn't grown much since 1980 and Texas has doubled.  So somewhere around the state we need room for at least another 9000 or so kids that would have gone to UT if the Texas had grown at the same rate as the population.  A&M is trying to solve this problem by getting bigger.  Texas, by staying the same size, is getting better just because it's harder to get in.  We need other schools around the state in the UT system to get bigger and better too, just to keep the same level of opportunity that Texans had in 1980.

The lege is helping by dumping money into UT-Dallas to attract kids.  As a result, UT-Dallas's SAT scores are on par with UT-Austin's.

Hopefully they keep going with other UT schools until we have a true California style system rather than two big schools plus everyone else.

Most of the UT system  campuses are enrolling record numbers year after year.  UTSA is at 32k and projecting 45K by 2028.   Part of the growth is being driven by UT itself by limiting the number of Freshmen as you noted through their CAP program where  they allow  rejected   freshmen  admission candidates the chance to earn unconditional admission their sophomore year if they earn a good GPA at a UT affiliated school like UTSA, RGV, Dallas, Arlington, etc.   Truth is a number of those students end up staying there and UT big dogs know that.   I think A&M has a similar setup.

But I tell you one thing from experience with both systems as both a student back in the  early 90's and now a parent. The UT system treats their system schools MUCH better than A&M does.   The UT system  seems  to see their  schools as an extension  of UT Austin in how it encourages the growth of each school in the terms or academic programs and research areas.   Whereas as A&M kind of picks and chooses who are winners and losers and you don't see as much collaboration between schools.   I will say since John Sharp became Chancellor, he's taken more of an active role in the A&M schools down here in South Texas and all three have shown some remarkable growth and infrastructure projects.   Before then, it was hard to get the time of day from the A&M BOR.    In fact one of the chief reason they took over the Laredo, Kingsville, and Corpus campuses was to improve their system minority enrollment numbers.  What real ticked off many at College Station is they were forced also to allow those three campuses to change their names to Texas A&M-  __________.     Texas A&I as it was known back then was not fully on board, but the legislature held a gun at both the school and A&M BOR regents head and forced a name change.   Then West Texas State and East Texas State adapted their names to take on "A&M in their names much to displeasure of some at both schools and at A&M.   

 

[NBMisha 224]

2 hours ago, Murfdogg21 said:

I’m getting tired of getting hit up by college of engineering and Texas Exes for the specific reason that higher tuition and operating expenses require more donations than ever. 

I have several data points of UT engineering undergrad tuition and fees between 1999 and 2015. Tuition has gone up more than 3x in less than in less than 20 years. Enrollment not significantly up. Faculty size approximately the same. UT and college of engineering still skimming 48% “overhead” off the top of every engineering professors’ grants. I don’t see the rationale for the tuition hike (aside from supply and demand, but I didn’t realize UT (the academic side) was a for-profit organization). I damn sure don’t want to hear about the need to donate directly to departments to improve the quality of education and research. 

Hopefully more legit tier 1 research universities emerge to compete, because the ROI on a UT engineering degree isn’t what it used to be. 

Your mileage may vary.  The one kid I persuaded to do UT engineering has it sort of made in the shade.  It is no guarantee, but it is a tremendous advantage to some bullshit college bullshit major.  Before I retired, UT was our number one source of PE's and geologists, worldwide.

[Larry T. Spider 1746]

When I enrolled in good old Texas state in 2003 there were 22k students (I think). It has 39k now and is running out of room to grow at the same pace. My understanding is that Utsa, UH, and others have had a similar run over the last two decades. When these schools can’t or won’t grow anymore, their academic standards will become more stringent the same way UTs did. We are in a weird time of change where these schools can pick up a lot of the overflow but Texas will continue to grow and they will fill up.

Aggy will end up with 90k students because their mission goes beyond academics. They want to have the biggest school, biggest alumni pool, biggest stadium, and 5 million maroon pickups in Texas to outnumber you brainiac tea sippers.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

35 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

Aggy will end up with 90k students because their mission goes beyond academics. They want to have the biggest school, biggest alumni pool, biggest stadium, and 5 million maroon pickups in Texas to outnumber you brainiac tea sippers.

putting quotes around "goes beyond academics" would have been spoon-feeding, I guess

[Neonmoon 38129]

Population in Texas has increased 10 million in last 20 years,

Schools throughout Texas are struggling to keep up 

[Guest Lobo]

The second best public university in California is UC-Los Angeles.

The second best public university in Texas (and it's a distant second) is Texas A&M.

Let that fucking sink in.  

 

[Beau Vine 54258]

9 hours ago, SwanderedTalent said:

 

While the state could use a California style chain of excellent large publics, I just don't believe we'll ever get it unless the University of Texas system provides it. We're never going to see A&M, Tech, or UH on the level of even the second-gen Public Ivys like Arizona, Florida, or Ohio State. 

Ummm, Arizona?

[Bullneck 19180]

50 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Ummm, Arizona?

Yeah, I've never heard of any Arizona school mentioned as "good."

[jimmyjazz 45980]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Ummm, Arizona?

Hell, Ohio State?  A&M is gonna A&M but at worst I'd put them equal to the Buckeyes.  I'm sure there's some "ranking" out there that proves me wrong.

[Beau Vine 54258]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

The second best public university in California is UC-Los Angeles.

The second best public university in Texas (and it's a distant second) is Texas A&M.

Let that fucking sink in.  

 

California has probably 5 public universities that are better than A&M.  A&M is just so horrifically mismanaged that I really wonder what Tech and UTD could do if they were given A&M's share of the PUF.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Beau Vine

[Beau Vine 54258]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Hell, Ohio State?  A&M is gonna A&M but at worst I'd put them equal to the Buckeyes.  I'm sure there's some "ranking" out there that proves me wrong.

It may be full of jort-wearing tards, but tOSU is a research machine.  

[jimmyjazz 45980]

Yeah, I was married to one of those jort-wearing tards.  I'm familiar with the average Buckeye.  Research or not, open admissions + Ohio genetics = less than stellar academics.

I assume open admissions are a thing of the past, but it hasn't been that long.

Edited April 20, 2019 by jimmyjazz

[Beau Vine 54258]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Ummm, Arizona?

OK, the googles found me a guy who piggybacked on the original Public Ivies article and named his own regional public Ivies.  For the West, he had several UC schools, UDub, CU, and Arizona.  Arizona is AAU, so they're not dogshit.  I'd say A&M was better than UA until Perry turned them into an online diploma mill.  

[jimmyjazz 45980]

I'd be shocked if the average program at CU and certainly UA competes with that at UDub or a bunch of UC schools.  I think of the latter grouping as "public ivies".  I've never thought of CU or UA as belonging in that conversation (which would also include UM, U of I, UT, UNC, etc.).  Either the definition is getting watered down or things have changed.

[atomheartbevo 89735]

23 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I'd say A&M was better than UA until Perry turned them into an online diploma mill.  

 

[Beau Vine 54258]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'd be shocked if the average program at CU and certainly UA competes with that at UDub or a bunch of UC schools.  I think of the latter grouping as "public ivies". 

Agreed, but CU is still a pretty damn good university.  Colorado is an interesting state for higher ed -- in spite of having way too many little pissant public universities (Adams, Western, Fort Lewis), they've got three very good schools at the top of their food chain.  And it's damn shame that Texas didn't do with UTEP what Colorado did with Mines.  

[Neonmoon 38129]

What if Rick Perry resigned as Energy Secretary to become new Aggy President? He is buddies with Sharp

[Armybrat 40851]

In that case Blinn would ascend over aggy in the rankings.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

7 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

'd say A&M was better than UA until Perry turned them into an online diploma mill.  

that was my only point-- I threw out Arizona as a troll but it was considered a sort of secondary public Ivy and A&M was not. And certainly shouldn't be in 2019, it's easier to get into than Texas Tech now.

And Jimmy-- Ohio State's days of open enrollment etc etc are over. It's a really good public university now, maybe in the top 30 in the US if we have to put a number to it. It's not Texas but it's markedly better than A&M.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

8 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

It may be full of jort-wearing tards, but tOSU is a research machine.  

You need an ACT score in the 30s to get into tOSU these days. I believe 50% of the most recent entering class scored between 33-36. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by ShaggyBevo RIP

[Grippe 313]

Aggy is the puppy mill of diploma factories in the state of Texas.

[Gil Bang 25975]

14 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

California has probably 5 public universities that are better than A&M.  A&M is just so horrifically mismanaged that I really wonder what Tech and UTD could do if they were given A&M's share of the PUF.

6 actually.

 

UCLA

Cal

UC Santa Barbara

UC Irvine

UC San DIego

UC Davis 

[Deej 76836]

Just leaving this here.

[atomheartbevo 89735]

9 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

What if Rick Perry resigned as Energy Secretary to become new Aggy President? He is buddies with Sharp

He is supposedly hanging around Energy a little longer to pad out his retirement/whatever.  

I could easily see him taking over aggy Prez.   He’s hit his ceiling in politics.  Aggy Prez would allow him him to ride into the sunset with a nice office and plenty of assistants, all paid for by taxpayers, and he’d get to hobnob with the wealthy and powerful alumni.  

[Neonmoon 38129]

14 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Hell, Ohio State?  A&M is gonna A&M but at worst I'd put them equal to the Buckeyes.  I'm sure there's some "ranking" out there that proves me wrong.

You are correct. US News, the main rankings of US colleges, do indeed prove you wrong. Ohio State (#56) is ranked a better school than A&M (#66). 

Texas is #49. I also thought Texas was in the same level as Florida (#35), but I was wrong. Georgia (#47) is closer. Hell, I also though Michigan (#27) and Texas were similar but they blow us out of the water. 

[Deej 76836]

9 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

He is supposedly hanging around Energy a little longer to pad out his retirement/whatever.  

I could easily see him taking over aggy Prez.   He’s hit his ceiling in politics.  Aggy Prez would allow him him to ride into the sunset with a nice office and plenty of assistants, all paid for by taxpayers, and he’d get to hobnob with the wealthy and powerful alumni.  

Some podcast linked on one of these aggy threads mentioned Sharp had cockblocked Perry out of anything aggy. Any truth to that?

[Armybrat 40851]

7 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

You are correct. US News, the main rankings of US colleges, do indeed prove you wrong. Ohio State (#56) is ranked a better school than A&M (#66). 

Texas is #49. I also thought Texas was in the same level as Florida (#35), but I was wrong. Georgia (#47) is closer. Hell, I also though Michigan (#27) and Texas were similar but they blow us out of the water. 

The Times World University Rankings are more accurate for academics than US News, which uses some subjective criteria that the former doesn’t deem necessary. UT does very well there.

[jimmyjazz 45980]

39 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

You are correct. US News, the main rankings of US colleges, do indeed prove you wrong. Ohio State (#56) is ranked a better school than A&M (#66). 

Texas is #49. I also thought Texas was in the same level as Florida (#35), but I was wrong. Georgia (#47) is closer. Hell, I also though Michigan (#27) and Texas were similar but they blow us out of the water. 

Well, 56/66 isn't much of a spread.  Also, USN&WR tends to look beyond academics.  UT has typically gotten popped for class size, among other things.  I really don't put much stock in it as an academic ranking.

[Neonmoon 38129]

So which one is the best ranking for just academics? 

The Times Ranking has Michigan (#27),  Texas (#56), UVA (#56), Florida (#58), Ohio State (#69), Aggy (#93), Penn State (#125)

which is weird as I’ve always thought UVA was easily a better school than Texas. 

 

[Hagbard Celine 10874]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

Some podcast linked on one of these aggy threads mentioned Sharp had cockblocked Perry out of anything aggy. Any truth to that?

Sharp cockblocking Perry from getting aggy cock.

Yup.

[royiv 9326]

18 hours ago, Lobo said:

The second best public university in California is UC-Los Angeles.

The second best public university in Texas (and it's a distant second) is Texas A&M.

Let that fucking sink in.  

 

One could make a strong argument at this point that UT Dallas has passed A&M as the second best public university in Texas. Their academic standards and student body profile surpasses A&M’s.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

22 hours ago, royiv said:

One could make a strong argument at this point that UT Dallas has passed A&M as the second best public university in Texas. Their academic standards and student body profile surpasses A&M’s.

absolutely correct

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19119]

So which one is the best ranking for just academics? 
The Times Ranking has Michigan (#27),  Texas (#56), UVA (#56), Florida (#58), Ohio State (#69), Aggy (#93), Penn State (#125)
which is weird as I’ve always thought UVA was easily a better school than Texas. 
 

It also depends on the specific academic program.

[F250 28785]

On 4/20/2019 at 3:11 PM, royiv said:

One could make a strong argument at this point that UT Dallas has passed A&M as the second best public university in Texas. Their academic standards and student body profile surpasses A&M’s.

I believe this is correct. In another 10 years aggy will trail UT-D by a wide margin. At the current rate aggy will fall behind a number of UT system schools.

[jimmyjazz 45980]

But neither A&M nor UT-D signed a tight end:  advantage, A&M.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

15 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

I can say this as a reflection of what you posted.

I have family that went to UTD and family that went to West Texas State.

The UTD grad, while not much of a sports fan, loved the Longhorns and felt like she went to the same school "System" as her two siblings that went to UT Austin.

The West Texas State grad hates all things aggy and pulls for the Longhorns.

I did my undergrad at Texas A&I, known now as Texas A&M Kingsville.   In fact when I was finishing up, the name was changed.   But before then, the school along with Corpus Christi State and Laredo State (aka Texas A&M Corpus Christi and Texas A&M International) were part of the South Texas University System which A&M took on in the late 80's.  The dirty little secret from what I understand is A&M only took on those three schools because of their high numbers of minorities and it would help pad their "system" numbers to account for minority numbers which at the time were very much on the low end at the Collie Station campus and it would keep the Feds off their case. The A&M "system" back then only consisted of the Collie Station campus, Galveston and Tarleton State.     When the deal was agreed to bring on the three schools, it was understood by all involved each campus would keep their names.   A&M really didn't want their name associated with any of the schools they didn't start from scratch if you will and pretty much left each school to fend for themselves,   In 1992 or 1993, the  state legislature forced the A&M system to change the names of each school and it brought on a lot of resentment by  then current students, alums and supporters of both schools and the  A&M people REALLY didn't like it.   A&I for being a small school, actually had a very generous donor base and it went  dry almost overnight once the name change was official.   

There was long period when enrollment shrank and A&M spent very little money other than what the Legislature allocated on the school.  They kind of accepted the fact if they were going to have to share their glorious name,  they wanted it on Corpus school which was transitioning from a two year to four year at the time and they spent huge chunks of cash on that campus.  It was around 2005, TAMUK finally got a go getter for a  President and he reversed the trends, and got the A&M system to spend money on the school, both in infrastructure and academic programs.   I know Sharpe and the  A&M System gets a ton of grief around here and rightfully so for some of their decision making and rationale why they make them such as their move to the SEC!SEC!SEC!, but for the most party,  he's been good  for  TAMUK.     But like you noted with your relatives who went to West Texas State, the love is not there from former or even current students for the mother ship.   

[F250 28785]

I don't consider aggy to be the mothership of their system schools. They are more of a deadbeat dad that occasionally pays child support.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

I don't consider aggy to be the mothership of their system schools. They are more of a deadbeat dad that occasionally pays child support.

Very good comparison!  

[Rimbo 25985]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:19 PM, Bullneck said:

Yeah, I've never heard of any Arizona school mentioned as "good."

U of Az is decent.