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elfenix
elfenix

Babies decapitated by man with semi automatic rifle in the near east : turn it into glass! Babies decapitated by man with semi automatic rifle in Texas : nothing can be done

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Coldest tweet I have seen in a very long time...damn  

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Disclaimer: I've been pretty clearly anti-Israeli leadership and anti-radical Islam.  I don't see a good guy in this thing; I see two bad guys, and I think the most anyone could reasonably argue is th

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Asithappens

Asithappens 974

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 3/28/2019 at 10:44 PM, FondrenRoad said:

  The real issue for them is that the Palestinians have nowhere to go right now. 

That's true, for the most part. But depending on how important the "right now" qualifier is, they do have somewhere to go: namely, other Arab/Muslim countries. 

Why don't some of the Arab "brotherhood" take them in? Probably for a variety of reasons, including that it is in their interest to keep fomenting the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13,301

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Why don't some of the Arab "brotherhood" take them in? Probably for a variety of reasons, including that it is in their interest to keep fomenting the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

And there's the small matter of them not wanting to just give up their stolen homes to an occupying force.

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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

That's true, for the most part. But depending on how important the "right now" qualifier is, they do have somewhere to go: namely, other Arab/Muslim countries. 

Why don't some of the Arab "brotherhood" take them in? Probably for a variety of reasons, including that it is in their interest to keep fomenting the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

or maybe the 60,000 dual citizenship Jewish Americans who are west bank settlers can go back to New York and Chicago. 

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4,378

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34 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

That's true, for the most part. But depending on how important the "right now" qualifier is, they do have somewhere to go: namely, other Arab/Muslim countries. 

Why don't some of the Arab "brotherhood" take them in? Probably for a variety of reasons, including that it is in their interest to keep fomenting the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Last time I checked, Arab countries weren't countries consisting entirely of immigrants with Statues of Liberties at their front doors.

Regardless, you are just trying to pass the buck. It isn't Saudi, Iran, USA, etc fault.  The conflict is Palestinian/Israeli.  Both groups have the same homeland.  It is Israel's apartheid, not the USA's and not Iran's. In many ways, it's worse than South Africa's since Israel won't even admit to the apartheid's existence. "Why won't anyone else come take away these people that I stripped of all rights and put in an internment camp?"

I guess, at least you aren't trying to force them into Oklahoma like the USA did with it's natives. 

 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4,068

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Asithappens said:

That's true, for the most part. But depending on how important the "right now" qualifier is, they do have somewhere to go: namely, other Arab/Muslim countries. 

The people of Gaza literally cannot go anywhere. That sick blockade literally seals them in. 

Just as a side note, that sentiment about “why don’t other Arab nations take them in” is particularly grotesque.

The Palestinians are entitled to self-determination inside their own country, they have incurred no obligation to look elsewhere, and accordingly, no other country has incurred responsibilities to them.

The only country in this equation that has responsibilities to meet is Israel, and they routinely fail those responsibilities at every possible turn. The sentiment you’re expressing is no different than when the Israeli leadership rejected the Algiers Declaration by saying that it opposes an “additional Palestinian state,” the implication being that Jordan is one. That’s like saying that the Jews don’t need Israel because they already have New York.

All of this is simply an excuse to evade the fact that since U.N. 242 was passed, Israel has incurred obligations that it not only has failed to live up to, it does not want to live up to them.

They have an obligation to completely withdraw from the Occupied Territories. 

They have an obligation to completely withdraw its blockade of Gaza, as well as the hard border.

They have an obligation to dismantle the settlements, the wall that protects the settlements, to withdraw 100% of the settlers, and to withdraw any and all applications of the occupation (checkpoints, forfeit claims to water, etc).

Those are facts that they cannot weasel out of no matter how badly they do not want to relinquish their claims to the West Bank and the Golan Heights.

When you say that they should just go to Jordan, you’re offering apologetics for Israel’s immoral behavior in the Occupied Territories. That bullshit is unacceptable, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the real world.

 

Edited by hpslugga
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13,301

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

The Palestinians are entitled to self-determination inside their own country, they have incurred no obligation to look elsewhere, and accordingly, no other country has incurred responsibilities to them.

But but... uh... Israel is being very cruel to them and I'm scared of being critical of Israel so everyone Israel hates and abuses needs to slink away quietly so I don't feel uncomfortable.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4,068

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13 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

And yet that approach is still less heinous than the policy of wiping Israel off the map.

 

 Such a policy does not exist.  You’re comparing fantasy to reality 

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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

Posted
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7 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

And yet that approach is still less heinous than the policy of wiping Israel off the map.

 

That approach is the same as wiping Israel off the map and either would result in the expulsion of an ethnic group, Radovan.

Just come out and admit that you are in favor of ethnic cleansing. Do you understand what that makes you?

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 26,354

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1 minute ago, bolverk said:

That approach is the same as wiping Israel off the map and either would result in the expulsion of an ethnic group, Radovan.

Just come out and admit that you are in favor of ethnic cleansing. Do you understand what that makes you?

Serbian? 

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8,397

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, hpslugga said:

The people of Gaza literally cannot go anywhere. That sick blockade literally seals them in. 

Just as a side note, that sentiment about “why don’t other Arab nations take them in” is particularly grotesque.

The Palestinians are entitled to self-determination inside their own country, they have incurred no obligation to look elsewhere, and accordingly, no other country has incurred responsibilities to them.

The only country in this equation that has responsibilities to meet is Israel, and they routinely fail those responsibilities at every possible turn. The sentiment you’re expressing is no different than when the Israeli leadership rejected the Algiers Declaration by saying that it opposes an “additional Palestinian state,” the implication being that Jordan is one. That’s like saying that the Jews don’t need Israel because they already have New York.

All of this is simply an excuse to evade the fact that since U.N. 242 was passed, Israel has incurred obligations that it not only has failed to live up to, it does not want to live up to them.

They have an obligation to completely withdraw from the Occupied Territories.  

They have an obligation to completely withdraw its blockade of Gaza, as well as the hard border.

They have an obligation to dismantle the settlements, the wall that protects the settlements, to withdraw 100% of the settlers, and to withdraw any and all applications of the occupation (checkpoints, forfeit claims to water, etc).

Those are facts that they cannot weasel out of no matter how badly they do not want to relinquish their claims to the West Bank and the Golan Heights.

When you say that they should just go to Jordan, you’re offering apologetics for Israel’s immoral behavior in the Occupied Territories. That bullshit is unacceptable, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the real world.

 

Israel blockades the border between Gaza and Egypt?  How do they do that?

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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Israel blockades the border between Gaza and Egypt?  How do they do that?

they have arrangements with Egypt, which is Israel's puppet state now, due to the money the US Congress sends to Egypt's military , which is all an arrangement to keep the peace with Israel. Israel is the mothership to the satellite Arab states under their control -- Jordan & Egypt.  

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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

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10 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Israel blockades the border between Gaza and Egypt?  How do they do that?

The only legal border crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt is in Raffah. To my knowledge, Egypt currently restricts travel due to fears over Hamas's ties to Iran. That said, Israel has in the past, and could in the future, shut down the border crossing any time it wishes.

None of this, however, negates the claim that Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip are restricted freedom of movement. You can try to blame Egypt all you want for controlling their own borders for which you seem to be a strong advocate given your support of Trump, but you cannot deny that Israel has placed thousands of guards along Gaza's borders to ensure that Palestinians have to stay behind their walls and barbed wires.

In that sense, Gaza is a whole lot like East Berlin being guarded by Soviet soldiers.

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8,397

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Just now, bolverk said:

The only legal border crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt is in Raffah. To my knowledge, Egypt currently restricts travel due to fears over Hamas's ties to Iran. That said, Israel has in the past, and could in the future, shut down the border crossing any time it wishes.

None of this, however, negates the claim that Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip are restricted freedom of movement. You can try to blame Egypt all you want for controlling their own borders for which you seem to be a strong advocate given your support of Trump, but you cannot deny that Israel has placed thousands of guards along Gaza's borders to ensure that Palestinians have to stay behind their walls and barbed wires.

In that sense, Gaza is a whole lot like East Berlin being guarded by Soviet soldiers.

I don't see how Israel can physically shut down any part of Gaza's 7 mile border with Egypt.  Now that they have left Gaza.

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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Egypt is a big boy country.  They are responsible for their own actions.

it's a poor country run by a military junta that is being paid off by US tax dollars to be Israel's servant.  

Edited by NowThis
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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

Posted
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9 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I don't see how Israel can physically shut down any part of Gaza's 7 mile border with Egypt.  Now that they have left Gaza.

They have the tanks and can do whatever the fuck they want and have done so many times in the past.

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8,397

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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

They have the tanks and can do whatever the fuck they want and have done so many times in the past.

Egypt is the one that blockades Gaza to the south.  Short of invading Gaza or Egypt, Israel has no ability to control that border and hasn't since they left Gaza 14 years ago.

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8,397

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Just now, bolverk said:

Expressions of sympathy and wishes for justice toward Palestinians are anti-Semitic, huh?

2+2=5

He wasn't expressing sympathy or wishing for justice in that post I responded to.  He was saying Israel controls Egypt and their decision to blockade Gaza.  That's bullshit and weak.  And plays on the old Hitler trope of international jewry controlling world events.

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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

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1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Egypt is the one that blockades Gaza to the south.  Short of invading Gaza or Egypt, Israel has no ability to control that border and hasn't since they left Gaza 14 years ago.

Israel regularly bombards and invades the Gaza Strip. They have every ability to control that border anytime they wish. 

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8,397

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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Israel regularly bombards and invades the Gaza Strip. They have every ability to control that border anytime they wish. 

Egypt has blockaded Gaza since 2006.  They can and do open the border on occasion.  And Israel does nothing to stop it.  I suspect Israel would love it if a bunch of the people in Gaza resettled in Egypt.

Egypt keeps it blockaded mainly because of Hamas.  They don't like Hamas at all.

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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

He wasn't expressing sympathy or wishing for justice in that post I responded to.  He was saying Israel controls Egypt and their decision to blockade Gaza.  That's bullshit and weak.  And plays on the old Hitler trope of international jewry controlling world events.

I don't agree with him saying Eqypt is Israel's puppet state. I do, however, agree that they are ours. The military controls Eqypt and we control their army through our financial largesse.

If we want to give free rein to Israel, the Egyptian military will not stand in our way.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4,068

Posted
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Israel blockades the border between Gaza and Egypt?  How do they do that?

 

20 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Egypt is a big boy country.  They are responsible for their own actions.

Egypt collaborates with the US and Israel. You’re either being dishonest again or you were completely comatose during the President-For-Life-Mubarak years. The idea that they’re a “big boy” country is a fucking joke.

Edited by hpslugga
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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8,397

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Posted

Israel did not blockade Gaza after it left.  It was only until Hamas took over and started launching rockets into Israel that it reacted with a blockade.

Article 13 of the Hamas Charter unambiguously declares: 

“Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.” 

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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Egypt has blockaded Gaza since 2006.  They can and do open the border on occasion.  And Israel does nothing to stop it.  I suspect Israel would love it if a bunch of the people in Gaza resettled in Egypt.

Egypt keeps it blockaded mainly because of Hamas.  They don't like Hamas at all.

Of course, Egypt doesn't like Hamas. I stated as much up-thread. And, of course, the Likud would love it if a bunch of people in Gaza resettled in Egypt because of their desire to ethnically cleanse the region.

This still boils down to a people problem. There are human beings living in incredibly cramped quarters who deserve to live in dignity and freedom. Our government supports a group that seeks to oppress them to such a degree that we see the only solution as being one where they choose to leave.

Jesus Christ would say you're being an obstinate shithead for wanting that result.

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8,397

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Posted
Just now, bolverk said:

Of course, Egypt doesn't like Hamas. I stated as much up-thread. And, of course, the Likud would love it if a bunch of people in Gaza resettled in Egypt because of their desire to ethnically cleanse the region.

This still boils down to a people problem. There are human beings living in incredibly cramped quarters who deserve to live in dignity and freedom. Our government supports a group that seeks to oppress them to such a degree that we see the only solution as being one where they choose to leave. 

Jesus Christ would say you're being an obstinate shithead for wanting that result. 

They elected Hamas.  Hamas is a terrorist organization that started shooting rockets into Israel.  There was no blockade before that.  Get the timeline right.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4,068

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7 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't agree with him saying Eqypt is Israel's puppet state. I do, however, agree that they are ours. The military controls Eqypt and we control their army through our financial largesse.

If we want to give free rein to Israel, the Egyptian military will not stand in our way.

Correct, and given the reflexive nature of the US-Israeli relationship, the output of the policy is no different. 

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NowThis

NowThis 931

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't agree with him saying Eqypt is Israel's puppet state. I do, however, agree that they are ours. The military controls Eqypt and we control their army through our financial largesse.

If we want to give free rein to Israel, the Egyptian military will not stand in our way.

well that agrees with what i said -- the US has a large say in Egyptian affairs through US tax dollars which come from the US Congress, which is under AIPAC's control on Israeli issues with rare exceptions.  So this is not a Hitlerian anti-semitic trope, it's reality. You see, Israel controls (with rare exceptions) America's mideast policy through AIPAC, this not anti-semitic which is a head-fake, but reality. 

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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

They elected Hamas.  Hamas is a terrorist organization that started shooting rockets into Israel.  There was no blockade before that.  Get the timeline right.

And Israel bombs and invades the Gaza Strip on a regular basis. Chicken/egg. Shove it up your ass.

Do you, or do you not agree, that a group of human beings who have been rounded up and forced to live in a cramped ghetto have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Do those rights not extend to all men?

And if those humans are not being treated justly, do they or do they not have the right to rebel against their oppressors?

Edited by bolverk
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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

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9 minutes ago, NowThis said:

well that agrees with what i said -- the US has a large say in Egyptian affairs through US tax dollars which come from the US Congress, which is under AIPAC's control on Israeli issues with rare exceptions.  So this is not a Hitlerian anti-semitic trope, it's reality. You see, Israel controls (with rare exceptions) America's mideast policy through AIPAC, this not anti-semitic which is a head-fake, but reality. 

Lobbies, such as AIPAC, certainly have an outsized influence. I will say, however, fundamentalist evangelical groups have a larger sway on how our Congress critters write policy. 

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NowThis

NowThis 931

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Posted
5 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Lobbies, such as AIPAC, certainly have an outsized influence. I will say, however, fundamentalist evangelical groups have a larger sway on how our Congress critters write policy. 

AIPAC is much better funded and organized than any Evangelical group in terms of pushing Israeli agenda points. 

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bolverk

bolverk 29,817

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7 minutes ago, NowThis said:

AIPAC is much better funded and organized than any Evangelical group in terms of pushing Israeli agenda points. 

Yeah, where are their A&M, Baylor, or Liberty universities where they crank out thousands of dipshits on an annual basis to influence where we're going?

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