Israel

[Mojo Hand 4580]

And right on cue, Orca starts calling out Jews and making assumptions about various posters' religion.   I know that there are Muslim posters and posters with Arab ancestry on these boards.  Ever notice how nobody on the pro-Israel side ever calls them out personally in this discussion, over a literally twenty year period?  So telling. 

[hpslugga 4061]

6 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

Hamas has no relevancy in the WB so all this fluff about the charter is yet another bogus excuse to keep occupying the west bank

Oh we've known that for quite some time. They said the same thing about the PLO Covenant and it was just as ridiculous, not to mention totally hypocritical.

When the PLO drafted its Declaration of Independence in 1988, Israel's response was that "Israel opposes the establishment of an additional Palestinian state in the Gaza district and in the area between Israel and Jordan." It also stated that "Israel will not conduct negotiations with the PLO." And far from what they did say, notice what they did not say. They did not say "Israel will not conduct negotiations with the PLO unless it revises its Covenant by omitting all inferences that contests Israel's legitimacy." It just says that they won't even talk to them under any conditions.

This is just shameful goal-post moving and excuse making that seeks to evade a peaceful settlement to the conflict, which has enjoyed perhaps the broadest of international support more than any other issue in international affairs for the past 51 years.

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

No, because your assumptions are false.  Yes, the Palestinians are in a worse place now than twenty years ago, when this conversation started on hornfans, and in exactly the way that the pro-Israel side predicted.  They could still come away with something better than they have, but the only way that can ever happen is if they change their approach. 

I assume nothing. I know my history and me eyes and ears work. I also know that the God of Abraham is a human invention. You want to prove to me that there is one creator God who promised the land of Israel to the Jews? Show me the Ark of the Covenant or shut the fuck up. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

I assume nothing. I know my history and me eyes and ears work. I also know that the God of Abraham is a human invention. You want to prove to me that there is one creator God who promised the land of Israel to the Jews? Show me the Ark of the Covenant or shut the fuck up. 

No, that's another false assumption you're making — that Israel's continued existence depends in any way in what God said.   I'm willing to stipulate for purposes of this discussion that God did not promise the land of Israel to the Jews.  So what?  You might as well argue that Manifest Destiny wasn't really God's plan either. 

[Orca of Peace 109]

4 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Oh we've known that for quite some time. They said the same thing about the PLO Covenant and it was just as ridiculous, not to mention totally hypocritical.

When the PLO drafted its Declaration of Independence in 1988, Israel's response was that "Israel opposes the establishment of an additional Palestinian state in the Gaza district and in the area between Israel and Jordan." It also stated that "Israel will not conduct negotiations with the PLO." And far from what they did say, notice what they did not say. They did not say "Israel will not conduct negotiations with the PLO unless it revises its Covenant by omitting all inferences that contests Israel's legitimacy." It just says that they won't even talk to them under any conditions.

This is just shameful goal-post moving and excuse making that seeks to evade a peaceful settlement to the conflict, which has enjoyed perhaps the broadest of international support more than any other issue in international affairs for the past 51 years.

and btw, Hamas actually has changed its original charter of the 1980s, not that it matters, because it's all about the West Bank at this point. Hamas has no value in the WB occupation, which Israel is never giving up. So the best thing is to simply leave as they were planning to do. No excuses or conditions, just leave. 

[Orca of Peace 109]

A photo from the Israel, Syrian border along the Golan Heights shows IDF soldiers conversing with suspected Jabhat al Nusra fighters.

----------

 

this photo is  incredible. 2 Arab Jihadis with AK47s,  and 2-4 Israeli soldiers chat it up in a relaxed manner at the Israeli-Syrian border.

i had my doubts for years about the Mossad working with AQ and ISIS, seen that rumor many times but did not believe it. I believe it now after seeing this pic. 

 

[realgreggym 835]

27 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

good, the 2 Jews have returned, keeps the topic at the top.  Israel does not want a Pal state in the West Bank, that is never going to happen. Gaza is no longer relevant to the concept of statehood in the sense that Israel is no longer interested in annexing Gaza.  Hamas has no relevancy in the WB so all this fluff about the charter is yet another bogus excuse to keep occupying the west bank.  Arafat has been dead for about 14 years, I wonder how long the Israelis will keep using him as an excuse to continue the oppression, another 50 years? hmm.. 200 years from now?  Hey, I'm so happy our 2 Jewish spinster friends have return. Bump bump bump, it's healthy. 

You're an idiot. Quit embarrassing yourself. The Palestinians could have already had their own country. They declined. And to say that Hamas has no relevancy is beyond stupidity. The only thing that you proved is that you have no clue. Keep up your hatred.  Its always good to read what people like you at the bottom of the bell curve think. Its comic relief.

[Orca of Peace 109]

3 minutes ago, realgreggym said:

You're an idiot. Quit embarrassing yourself. The Palestinians could have already had their own country. They declined. And to say that Hamas has no relevancy is beyond stupidity. The only thing that you proved is that you have no clue. Keep up your hatred.  Its always good to read what people like you at the bottom of the bell curve think. Its comic relief.

Hamas has no relevancy to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. In fact their rocket attacks, now useless due to Iron Dome, were largely motivated by Israeli brutality in the West Bank. 

Israel should simply leave the West Bank. Arafat is dead, so quit using him as an excuse.,  that is the real stupidity. Israel controls everything and can give the Palestinians a state in 48 hours if they desired, but the Jews don't even acknowledge the Arabs as legitimate owners of their own farms, water wells, trees etc. The Jewish fascists have taken over the country and there is no going back to a 2 state solution. So, Israel should simply leave. 

[hpslugga 4061]

11 minutes ago, realgreggym said:

You're an idiot. Quit embarrassing yourself. The Palestinians could have already had their own country. They declined. And to say that Hamas has no relevancy is beyond stupidity. The only thing that you proved is that you have no clue. Keep up your hatred.  Its always good to read what people like you at the bottom of the bell curve think. Its comic relief.

They've been voting with the majority every year this issue comes up twice per said year (Arab League and OIC) and voice solidarity with the majority (because they can't actually vote) in the UNGA. They vote in the affirmative of the Two State Settlement each time it comes up, and they've been in favor of it for 42 fucking years ever since that first SC resolution came up that the US vetoed after Israel practically begged them to. Every word of what you just said is bullshit.

4 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

 now useless due to Iron Dome

Actually, Iron Dome doesn't do jack shit. That whole thing is a hype machine and essentially nothing else. You'd do well to read the literature provided by Theodore Postol on the topic. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/528991/an-explanation-of-the-evidence-of-weaknesses-in-the-iron-dome-defense-system/

What makes those "rockets" as impotent as they are is the fact that they aren't actually rockets in any meaningful sense. They're enhanced fireworks. Israel has imposed a blockade of Gaza since 2007. Hardly any materials get through to them. In 2014, Israel claimed that something like 8,000 projectiles were fired at them...and only 3 hit their targets (5 Israeli civilians killed, 1 house destroyed). But Iron Dome only exists in the major urban centers and Hamas cannot fire such puny "weapons" that far. In fact, Postol examined the contrail evidence and estimated that its efficacy was about 5%. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by hpslugga

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

47 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

So you're saying the sooner the Palestinians accept the idea that they're subhuman, undeserving of freedom and equality, and their own country, sovereign, independent, with the right to defend themselves just like everyone else...the better off they'll be?

That's the reality on the ground. You should forgive them if they don't see things the way you do. Trump and Netanyahu have declared that the Palestinians will NEVER have a state. They're fucked and it's official. 

When an oppressed people have no power politically, violence is the guaranteed outcome. There is no other option. You'd do the same if you were in their shoes. 

No, as soon as the Palestinians vocally and in writing disavow the concept of pushing Israel into the Med, this issue will become much more civil.  Israel is here to stay for the foreseeable future. The Palestinians and their head banging against a brick wall  notions of wiping them out need to cease before anything meaningful will ever happen.

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

23 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

No, that's another false assumption you're making — that Israel's continued existence depends in any way in what God said.   I'm willing to stipulate for purposes of this discussion that God did not promise the land of Israel to the Jews.  So what?  You might as well argue that Manifest Destiny wasn't really God's plan either. 

Are you willing to stipulate that unless you can produce the Ark of the Covenant that your covenant is a myth?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Are you willing to stipulate that unless you can produce the Ark of the Covenant that your covenant is a myth?

I'm not getting into a religious debate, but sure, for purposes of this discussion, I'll stipulate that the biblical covenant is a myth.  Again, so what? 

[Orca of Peace 109]

even Thomas Friedman, who is Jewish, said Israel should leave the West Bank. The solution is obvious and one side has all the power. 

[realgreggym 835]

13 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

Hamas has no relevancy to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. In fact their rocket attacks, now useless due to Iron Dome, were largely motivated by Israeli brutality in the West Bank. 

Israel should simply leave the West Bank. Arafat is dead, so quit using him as an excuse.,  that is the real stupidity. Israel controls everything and can give the Palestinians a state in 48 hours if they desired, but the Jews don't even acknowledge the Arabs as legitimate owners of their own farms, water wells, trees etc. The Jewish fascists have taken over the country and there is no going back to a 2 state solution. So, Israel should simply leave. 

You are showing your true colors although they were already obvious. I used Arafat to prove past history that you didn't know because you didn't google that. The things that you just mentioned like water rights were already negotiated. Your problem is your lack of knowledge because that knowledge comes from your googling your point of view.

BTW, Israel did leave once before. They left Gaza unilaterally in hopes that it would help the peace process and they were wrong.  When your idiot side guarantees Israel's security, things will change but your side doesn't want that.

[HenryJames 66067]

52 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The "2 Jews?" Sounds kind of racist, dude. 

[hpslugga 4061]

2 minutes ago, realgreggym said:

They left Gaza unilaterally in hopes that it would help the peace process and they were wrong.  

Yeah, that's total bullshit.

[David Dennison 18860]

23 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

Hamas has no relevancy to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. In fact their rocket attacks, now useless due to Iron Dome, were largely motivated by Israeli brutality in the West Bank. 

Israel should simply leave the West Bank. Arafat is dead, so quit using him as an excuse.,  that is the real stupidity. Israel controls everything and can give the Palestinians a state in 48 hours if they desired, but the Jews don't even acknowledge the Arabs as legitimate owners of their own farms, water wells, trees etc. The Jewish fascists have taken over the country and there is no going back to a 2 state solution. So, Israel should simply leave. 

Or if they choose not to leave, they should annex Gaza and the West Bank and make them part of Israel.

I wonder why they won't do that.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Or if they choose not to leave, they should annex Gaza and the West Bank and make them part of Israel.

I wonder why they won't do that.

It's funny that you still think this argument undermines Israel in some way. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Or if they choose not to leave, they should annex Gaza and the West Bank and make them part of Israel.

I wonder why they won't do that.

Same reason Va. doesn't want W. Va back

[Orca of Peace 109]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Or if they choose not to leave, they should annex Gaza and the West Bank and make them part of Israel.

I wonder why they won't do that.

too many Arabs who might then out number Jews in a few years meaning Israel dies by the ballot box, not by bullets.  They could just annex the West Bank and still be a big majority but they don't want to do that. Simply leave, it's for the best. 

[Orca of Peace 109]

10 minutes ago, realgreggym said:

You are showing your true colors although they were already obvious. I used Arafat to prove past history that you didn't know because you didn't google that. The things that you just mentioned like water rights were already negotiated. Your problem is your lack of knowledge because that knowledge comes from your googling your point of view.

BTW, Israel did leave once before. They left Gaza unilaterally in hopes that it would help the peace process and they were wrong.  When your idiot side guarantees Israel's security, things will change but your side doesn't want that.

leaving Gaza is not the same thing as leaving the West Bank. Hamas rockets don't work anymore, they are in fact reduced to launching condoms (seriously) that have a burning rag tied to a string. It's that much of a force against a nuclear power. It's laughable that anyone would use Hamas as a real threat to almighty Israel. Only stupid people believe that. 

[Orca of Peace 109]

nobody want to talk about Al Qaeda? lol it's funny though, almost Onion satire , but true. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Orca of Peace

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, Orca of Peace said:

nobody want to talk about Al Qaeda? lol it's funny though, almost Onion satire , but true. 

Yeah, that's what happens when you have no credibility as a poster.  People ignore your bullshit.  Get used to it. 

[David Dennison 18860]

8 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

It's funny that you still think this argument undermines Israel in some way. 

It's funny you don't.

 

[Orca of Peace 109]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

Yeah, that's what happens when you have no credibility as a poster.  People ignore your bullshit.  Get used to it. 

dream on. It's true, but so shocking that most go into an internet coma. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, David Dennison said:

It's funny you don't.

 

Hey, I'm fine agreeing to disagree.  Keep pointing out that Israel has no interest in annexing the territories, and I'll keep letting you. 

[David Dennison 18860]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Same reason Va. doesn't want W. Va back

The difference being Virginia isn't occupying West Virginia and West Virginia is a state with its own government.

[David Dennison 18860]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

Hey, I'm fine agreeing to disagree.  Keep pointing out that Israel has no interest in annexing the territories, and I'll keep letting you. 

And I'll keep pointing out that as long as they don't annex the territories while at the same time occupying much of the West Bank they are the ultimate masters of hypocrisy and bullshit.

[Orca of Peace 109]

 the ultimate masters of hypocrisy and bullshit. 

==

sounds like an awesome name for a wrestling tag team partnership.  In this corner, from Israel, we have THE ULTIMATE MASTERS OF HYPOCRISY AND BULLSHIT!!! 

 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And I'll keep pointing out that as long as they don't annex the territories while at the same time occupying much of the West Bank they are the ultimate masters of hypocrisy and bullshit.

Feel free.  It has the benefit of being unpersuasive on the merits and supporting Israel's position on territorial expansion, so have at it. 

[David Dennison 18860]

3 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Feel free.  It has the benefit of being unpersuasive on the merits and supporting Israel's position on territorial expansion, so have at it. 

You know what's unpersuasive? Israel talking up democracy and human rights.

Edited July 25, 2018 by David Dennison

[Orca of Peace 109]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You know what's unpersuasive? Israel talking up democracy and human rights.

as referened on this thread a few pages ago, they have officially made Apartheid the law in Israel itself against their own Arab citizens who are about 20% of the population. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

12 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You know what's unpersuasive? Israel talking up democracy and human rights.

It doesn't really need to be persuasive in the context of this debate.  Don't get me wrong — like any nation, Israel should not be above criticism and movements for reform, and I have my own criticisms of Israel (and even more criticisms of every single nation that surrounds it).  But it doesn't have much relevance to the overarching issue of the settlement of the longstanding territorial disputes. I mean, "unpersuasive on democracy and human rights" could be said of the US, which has a minority-elected president who is pulling children away from parents to stick them in toddler internment camps, not to mention our own midadventures in war around the world.  That's our country. And that's something warranting criticism and debate. But nobody doubts the right of the US to exist or its territorial legitimacy.   So, by all means, argue for human rights improvements in Israel, and all offending countries in the region and world, if you sincerely care about human rights.   But it's a separate issue. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Mojo Hand

[Orca of Peace 109]

the US army isn't occupying a people against their will. If so, that's war. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

The US isn't under constant attack from just over our border either, or we would go in there.  And, look, I know that you won't accept that, but that is persuasive to most people with influence over this issue, because it is reasonable

[JBJ 3654]

The best bet for the West Bank might actually be annexation.

[Orca of Peace 109]

6 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

The US isn't under constant attack from just over our border either, or we would go in there.  And, look, I know that you won't accept that, but that is persuasive to most people with influence over this issue, because it is reasonable

the US would be under attack were it occupying millions of people against their will. See the Sunni areas of Iraq. 

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

21 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

the US army isn't occupying a people against their will. If so, that's war. 

So you agree with the Palestinians. 

[realgreggym 835]

29 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

as referened on this thread a few pages ago, they have officially made Apartheid the law in Israel itself against their own Arab citizens who are about 20% of the population. 

So how do you explain the Israeli Arabs in the Knesset. 

[Orca of Peace 109]

3 minutes ago, realgreggym said:

So how do you explain the Israeli Arabs in the Knesset. 

did you know racist Apartheid South Africa had coloreds in their parliament? 

[realgreggym 835]

If I  remember, that didn't happen until the 90s. Israeli Arabs can also own property, travel freely and have their own businesses.  

[JBJ 3654]

I agree that there are valid civil issues that need address, but where are you going with this?

That the second infitada was justified?  That Palestinians have shown to be the greater proponent of civil rights?

A civil rights argument in support of Palestinians is severely limited in application.

Edited July 25, 2018 by JBJ

[Johnny Sack 8397]

24 minutes ago, realgreggym said:

If I  remember, that didn't happen until the 90s. Israeli Arabs can also own property, travel freely and have their own businesses.  

They have more civil rights in Israel than they would in pretty much every muslim majority country.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 hour ago, Orca of Peace said:

the US would be under attack were it occupying millions of people against their will. 

The U.S. is doing just that, and has been from the start, although we killed enough to get under a million for awhile.  There hasn't been much in the way of attacks since Geronimo, I don't think. 

[Orca of Peace 109]

12 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

The U.S. is doing just that, and has been from the start, although we killed enough to get under a million for awhile.  There hasn't been much in the way of attacks since Geronimo, I don't think. 

code for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs, which a majority of Israeli Jews favor now. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

No code there.  Just a caveat on the "millions" number in the comparison.  But certainly a distinction, if you want to apply it to Israel.   And one in which David Dennison's repeated point about annexation again supports the Israeli side.  Annexation wouldn't pose any electorate problem if Israel were interested in ethnic cleansing.  But as DD points out, Israel isn't doing that. 

[TexArcher 37791]

10 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

code for ethnic cleansing of the Arabs, which a majority of Israeli Jews favor now. 

Source?

Edit: I'm familiar with a study that showed about half of Israelis said Arabs should be expelled from Israel.  But that would be a pretty loose definition of ethnic cleansing.

Edited July 25, 2018 by TexArcher

[Orca of Peace 109]

from 2016, a poll showed 48%. I saw a more current poll somewhere that its more than 50% now.  https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/pew-almost-half-of-israeli-jews-back-transfer-or-expulsion-of-arabs-1.5414660

One of the questions in the survey, based on face-to-face interviews of 5,601 individuals, asked to what degree they agreed with the following statement: “Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel.” The result, among the Jewish respondents: Twenty-one percent “strongly agree” and 27 percent “mostly agree.” If those two groups are combined, about half of Israeli Jews questioned – 48 percent – support transfer of Arab citizens. On the other hand, a similar proportion – 46 percent – say they oppose such a move, with 29 percent saying that they “don’t really agree” and 17 percent responding that they “don’t agree at all” to the expulsion of Arabs

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 hours ago, realgreggym said:

You are showing your true colors although they were already obvious. I used Arafat to prove past history that you didn't know because you didn't google that. The things that you just mentioned like water rights were already negotiated. Your problem is your lack of knowledge because that knowledge comes from your googling your point of view.

BTW, Israel did leave once before. They left Gaza unilaterally in hopes that it would help the peace process and they were wrong.  When your idiot side guarantees Israel's security, things will change but your side doesn't want that.

Or you know, Israel could let the UN send peacekeepers into Gaza like they want to.  That would guarantee security.  Instead, Israel bitches and the USA vetoes because it isn't really about security at all.  Its about keeping the status quo while Israel figures out how to take all of the West Bank while removing all Palestinians from it without massive international blowback.  In fact, encouraging minor terrorist attacks is a good thing for Israel.  It allows them to say "see, we told you," while systematically settling the West Bank, and disenfranchising West Bank Palestinians to the point where they leave.  Eventually, they'll just declare it Israel because "we're already here."   Once the West Bank is fully considered Israel, they'll instantly let the UN enter Gaza, and unilaterally declare the nation of Palestine as Gaza only.

[TexArcher 37791]

Yeah, Orca.  And again, "expulsion" from a place isn't exactly what people think of when they hear "ethnic cleansing."  No one, to my knowledge, is calling for extermination.

And I wonder what percentage of Arabs would like to see Israelis expelled from Israel.

I'm not taking sides here, either.  I think Israel is every bit the bad actor that Hamas is.  I think it's absurd when anyone takes sides in that fiasco.  All I see is two ruthless groups fighting over a patch of land.  Oldest story in history.

Edited July 25, 2018 by TexArcher