Israel

[956 Worldwide 34728]

10 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Seems objective to me.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/profile/anshel-pfeffer

Quote

Pfeffer is one of the smartest and most prolific of Israel’s younger generation of journalists. His work for Haaretz reflects that paper’s liberal bent, instinctively opposed to Netanyahu and much of what he represents. It is hard to imagine that this author ever voted for his subject. Bibi, obsessed by hostile “left-wing” media, complained pre-emptively that this biography would be a “cartoon.” It is not: It fleshes out a superficially familiar and invariably quotable figure with a wealth of background information and analysis that provide necessary and, of course, often highly critical context.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/07/books/review/bibi-benjamin-netanyahu-anshel-pfeffer.html 

[Neonmoon 38129]

Maybe I’m a nervous nelly, but I would definitely leave my house if a government told me they were about to bomb it. 

[956 Worldwide 34728]

6 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Why not objective?  Because he’s Israeli?  Are all the journalists who wrote about Trump, positively or negatively, in the tank for him?

Well, you see, first you can’t trust Twitter, it’s full of disinfo so you need to filter information but you can’t trust The Times either because they allow Jews who write books about politics to cover Israel. 
 

“An Israeli who wrote a book on Bibi is inherently untrustworthy,” for fucks sake just put three parentheses in your post. You’re not hiding it very well. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[cactusflinthead 27601]

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

MAGA = Russia 

[LCHorn 2623]

5 hours ago, RollingPresidential said:

Just want to pop in that this thread is vastly superior to its analogue on the IT politics board, which I accidentally stumbled into trying to find Scipio's latest post.

IT ten years ago was full of olds who thought Red McCombs was wrong when he said Charlie Strong would make a good coordinator because you should get a white man for those positions, too.  
 

Now those have been joined by refugees from OB and 247 and who no longer have the crutch of age to help justify their ignorance.  
 

Nahlin himself is a worshipper at the altar of Reagan, which I have always considered odd given how the recruiting guys must have to prostrate themselves to a bunch of black teenagers in order to generate content.

[Gatorubet 30254]

51 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Seems objective to me.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/profile/anshel-pfeffer

956 has lost his fucking mind.  Sad to see.   I would bet that there is some personal aspect of this that he is not sharing with us that drives his posting.  

It has always been interesting to me to see how people react to tens or hundreds or thousands of people being killed - and then losing their minds because of that.    Don’t get me wrong, how can any decent human not be affected by that?   But it is fascinating that the deaths of other people on other “teams” - or who die in manners less spectacularly evil than having a throat cut are deaths that do not matter as much. Those other dead peeps might beg to differ. 

I have asthma.  It used to be pretty fucking horrific, actually, so thank you evil big pharma for helping me be alive - because it was a close call there for a while.   I remember when several Republican administrations changed the EPA policy on how much pollution and particulates could be allowed in the air. Meaning they let far more of it into the air.   I remember talking to someone who is losing their brain because of Benghazi and a couple American deaths, and I asked how come he wasn’t upset when the best estimates of United States government scientists said that 100,000 people a year more would die because of the change in environmental pollution standards the GOP implemented.   I mean, 100,000 is more than 5 or 10.   Naturally, I was told that 100,000 people figure is bullshit.  All I could tell him is that’s what the United States government scientists said. Let’s say they had an agenda and it was only half that amount. Fuck it. Let’s say it was a BIG agenda and only 10% of those people who would die because of the changed regulations died.  That would be 10,000 more dead people in America a year.    Nobody gave a shit.    

Unless someone is drinking the right wing Kool-Aid, you would have to admit that our attack on Iraq killed 200,000 to 600,000 civilians when water treatment plants, lack electricity to hospitals and water treatment and medicines - and related bombings - led to a health crisis in Iraq.     So I might be cynical, but I raise an eyebrow when we are losing our minds over hundreds or even 1000 people killed, when our collective American souls had not one fucking problem with hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens dying. Or tens of thousands more Americans dying of pollution.  A year.  But Saddam‘s kids raped some people, and he allegedly tried to kill W’s daddy, so that’s OK.<cue Lee Greenwood song>

And, like I said, before, if anyone is keeping score, the IDF has killed far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas killed Israeli citizens in their rocket attacks and terrorist acts.   When I say this do I condone Hamas slaughtering people? No. Do I condone terrorist attacks? No. Am I crying at the evil and incomprehensible acts of brutality against the innocent Israeli civilians that affect their families for the rest of their lives? Yes. Do I want all persons responsible for this dead? God damn right. 

But some of you motherfuckers need to get off picking one side on this issue in a simplistic version akin to “turning the sand to glass” shit the right said in past Iraqi wars.  Because if there was ever an issue that needed objective restraint, it is this issue.   Because bombing the fuck out of one of the most densely populated areas in the fucking world and killing thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians is NOT going to lead to peace. It is going to lead to attacks on the 75th fucking anniversary of the Yom Kippur war.  Because if you’re killing Israeli  families, their family wants to kill you. And if you kill a Palestinian family, their family wants to kill the Israelis who killed them.   And if those Israelis kill them…

So, as I watch our president talk about the horror of the atrocities against the Israelis, I have to agree. When his rhetoric seems to paint them as these monsters who are evil beyond comprehension, I think of the hundreds of thousands of civilians we killed in Iraq, and all the families enjoying a wedding that we fucking killed in a drone strike.   And there is indeed a vast galactic width difference between drone killing a wedding party by mistaken intel and cutting babies throats.    But the families of loved ones killed by the drone strike do not care if we are monsters - or air force  fuckups who made a mistake and only joined because they wanted some money for college. They care about dead innocent family members. 

I guess what I’m saying is you can have hatred for the Hamas assholes who committed the terrorist acts all you want.  You likely aren’t hating them enough.  I co-sign.   But I have issues with folks lumping all the Palestinians (who don’t have guns who aren’t armed, and who are caught between a bunch of terrorist madmen with guns and the IDF with guns) in one pile.  Those people are living in fear, with no choice, and now with no food or water or electricity.  I suggest you spend a moment to look at your own spirituality, and whatever religion you practice, and tamp down the hate on ALL the people in Gaza a bit because it will get us exactly fucking nowhere.  

 

[956 Worldwide 34728]

1 minute ago, Gatorubet said:

956 has lost his fucking mind.  Sad to see.   I would bet that there is some personal aspect of this that he is not sharing with us that drives his posting.  

It has always been interesting to me to see how people react to tens or hundreds or thousands of people being killed - and then losing their minds because of that.    Don’t get me wrong, how can any decent human not be affected by that?   But it is fascinating that the deaths of other people on other “teams” - or who die in manners less spectacularly evil than having a throat cut are deaths that do not matter as much. Those other dead peeps might beg to differ. 

I have asthma.  It used to be pretty fucking horrific, actually, so thank you evil big pharma for helping me be alive - because it was a close call there for a while.   I remember when several Republican administrations changed the EPA policy on how much pollution and particulates could be allowed in the air. Meaning they let far more of it into the air.   I remember talking to someone who is losing their brain because of Benghazi and a couple American deaths, and I asked how come he wasn’t upset when the best estimates of United States government scientists said that 100,000 people a year more would die because of the change in environmental pollution standards the GOP implemented.   I mean, 100,000 is more than 5 or 10.   Naturally, I was told that 100,000 people figure is bullshit.  All I could tell him is that’s what the United States government scientists said. Let’s say they had an agenda and it was only half that amount. Fuck it. Let’s say it was a BIG agenda and only 10% of those people who would die because of the changed regulations died.  That would be 10,000 more dead people in America a year.    Nobody gave a shit.    

Unless someone is drinking the right wing Kool-Aid, you would have to admit that our attack on Iraq killed 200,000 to 600,000 civilians when water treatment plants, lack electricity to hospitals and water treatment and medicines - and related bombings - led to a health crisis in Iraq.     So I might be cynical, but I raise an eyebrow when we are losing our minds over hundreds or even 1000 people killed, when our collective American souls had not one fucking problem with hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens dying. Or tens of thousands more Americans dying of pollution.  A year.  But Saddam‘s kids raped some people, and he allegedly tried to kill W’s daddy, so that’s OK.<cue Lee Greenwood song>

And, like I said, before, if anyone is keeping score, the IDF has killed far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas killed Israeli citizens in their rocket attacks and terrorist acts.   When I say this do I condone Hamas slaughtering people? No. Do I condone terrorist attacks? No. Am I crying at the evil and incomprehensible acts of brutality against the innocent Israeli civilians that affect their families for the rest of their lives? Yes. Do I want all persons responsible for this dead? God damn right. 

But some of you motherfuckers need to get off picking one side on this issue in a simplistic version akin to “turning the sand to glass” shit the right said in past Iraqi wars.  Because if there was ever an issue that needed objective restraint, it is this issue.   Because bombing the fuck out of one of the most densely populated areas in the fucking world and killing thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians is NOT going to lead to peace. It is going to lead to attacks on the 75th fucking anniversary of the Yom Kippur war.  Because if you’re killing Israeli  families, their family wants to kill you. And if you kill a Palestinian family, their family wants to kill the Israelis who killed them.   And if those Israelis kill them…

So, as I watch our president talk about the horror of the atrocities against the Israelis, I have to agree. When his rhetoric seems to paint them as these monsters who are evil beyond comprehension, I think of the hundreds of thousands of civilians we killed in Iraq, and all the families enjoying a wedding that we fucking killed in a drone strike.   And there is indeed a vast galactic width difference between drone killing a wedding party by mistaken intel and cutting babies throats.    But the families of loved ones killed by the drone strike do not care if we are monsters - or air force  fuckups who made a mistake and only joined because they wanted some money for college. They care about dead innocent family members. 

I guess what I’m saying is you can have hatred for the Hamas assholes who committed the terrorist acts all you want.  You likely aren’t hating them enough.  I co-sign.   But I have issues with folks lumping all the Palestinians (who don’t have guns who aren’t armed, and who are caught between a bunch of terrorist madmen with guns and the IDF with guns) in one pile.  Those people are living in fear, with no choice, and now with no food or water or electricity.  I suggest you spend a moment to look at your own spirituality, and whatever religion you practice, and tamp down the hate on ALL the people in Gaza a bit because it will get us exactly fucking nowhere.  

 

I would argue that seeing a Jewish name on a byline about a massacre, and the fact that the guy wrote a book about Bibi— and not bothering to check and see that the guy has written for The Post, The NYT, the Sunday Times, and left-leaning Haaretz; or that his book is objectively critical of Bibi—- but instead leaping to the conclusion of “he can’t be objective” is pretty much the definition of anti-Semitism. It’s an old trope that Jews can’t be trusted to be objective when it comes to other Jews.

[Brisketexan 105161]

956 has lost his fucking mind.  Sad to see.   I would bet that there is some personal aspect of this that he is not sharing with us that drives his posting.  
It has always been interesting to me to see how people react to tens or hundreds or thousands of people being killed - and then losing their minds because of that.    Don’t get me wrong, how can any decent human not be affected by that?   But it is fascinating that the deaths of other people on other “teams” - or who die in manners less spectacularly evil than having a throat cut are deaths that do not matter as much. Those other dead peeps might beg to differ. 
I have asthma.  It used to be pretty fucking horrific, actually, so thank you evil big pharma for helping me be alive - because it was a close call there for a while.   I remember when several Republican administrations changed the EPA policy on how much pollution and particulates could be allowed in the air. Meaning they let far more of it into the air.   I remember talking to someone who is losing their brain because of Benghazi and a couple American deaths, and I asked how come he wasn’t upset when the best estimates of United States government scientists said that 100,000 people a year more would die because of the change in environmental pollution standards the GOP implemented.   I mean, 100,000 is more than 5 or 10.   Naturally, I was told that 100,000 people figure is bullshit.  All I could tell him is that’s what the United States government scientists said. Let’s say they had an agenda and it was only half that amount. Fuck it. Let’s say it was a BIG agenda and only 10% of those people who would die because of the changed regulations died.  That would be 10,000 more dead people in America a year.    Nobody gave a shit.    
Unless someone is drinking the right wing Kool-Aid, you would have to admit that our attack on Iraq killed 200,000 to 600,000 civilians when water treatment plants, lack electricity to hospitals and water treatment and medicines - and related bombings - led to a health crisis in Iraq.     So I might be cynical, but I raise an eyebrow when we are losing our minds over hundreds or even 1000 people killed, when our collective American souls had not one fucking problem with hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens dying. Or tens of thousands more Americans dying of pollution.  A year.  But Saddam‘s kids raped some people, and he allegedly tried to kill W’s daddy, so that’s OK.
And, like I said, before, if anyone is keeping score, the IDF has killed far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas killed Israeli citizens in their rocket attacks and terrorist acts.   When I say this do I condone Hamas slaughtering people? No. Do I condone terrorist attacks? No. Am I crying at the evil and incomprehensible acts of brutality against the innocent Israeli civilians that affect their families for the rest of their lives? Yes. Do I want all persons responsible for this dead? God damn right. 
But some of you motherfuckers need to get off picking one side on this issue in a simplistic version akin to “turning the sand to glass” shit the right said in past Iraqi wars.  Because if there was ever an issue that needed objective restraint, it is this issue.   Because bombing the fuck out of one of the most densely populated areas in the fucking world and killing thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians is NOT going to lead to peace. It is going to lead to attacks on the 75th fucking anniversary of the Yom Kippur war.  Because if you’re killing Israeli  families, their family wants to kill you. And if you kill a Palestinian family, their family wants to kill the Israelis who killed them.   And if those Israelis kill them…
So, as I watch our president talk about the horror of the atrocities against the Israelis, I have to agree. When his rhetoric seems to paint them as these monsters who are evil beyond comprehension, I think of the hundreds of thousands of civilians we killed in Iraq, and all the families enjoying a wedding that we fucking killed in a drone strike.   And there is indeed a vast galactic width difference between drone killing a wedding party by mistaken intel and cutting babies throats.    But the families of loved ones killed by the drone strike do not care if we are monsters - or air force  fuckups who made a mistake and only joined because they wanted some money for college. They care about dead innocent family members. 
I guess what I’m saying is you can have hatred for the Hamas assholes who committed the terrorist acts all you want.  You likely aren’t hating them enough.  I co-sign.   But I have issues with folks lumping all the Palestinians (who don’t have guns who aren’t armed, and who are caught between a bunch of terrorist madmen with guns and the IDF with guns) in one pile.  Those people are living in fear, with no choice, and now with no food or water or electricity.  I suggest you spend a moment to look at your own spirituality, and whatever religion you practice, and tamp down the hate on ALL the people in Gaza a bit because it will get us exactly fucking nowhere.  
 

Lot of people who have strong opinions about what Israel SHOULDN’T do in response to a murderous attack on its people.
Those posts are usually really light on what Israel SHOULD do.
Because the posts about how Israel shouldn’t be striking targets in Gaza amount to “once Hamas terrorists get back to home base in Gaza, they get to be home free.” Secondarily, those posts amount to an endorsement of Hamas’s practice of sheltering its military activities under the roofs of schools, medical facilities, etc. - Hamas uses human shields, and Israel should reward and encourage that tactic by sitting on its hands.
By your approaches, Hamas wins. In fact, they would be foolish if they don’t do MORE of what they’ve done: more civilian murders, more use of human shields. Because of Israel follows your direction, those tactics have worked, and will keep working. You are actually rewarding and encouraging Hamas’s strategy of putting Palestinian civilians in the line of fire. You’re going to get MORE of what you reward, not less.
Reality is that this is dirty, dirty fucking business. Israel has a right to strike Hamas. And if Hamas picks up a civilian and puts that person between Hamas and an Israeli bullet, the person’s death is on Hamas.

[TwiceHorn 31509]

Pretty good piece on where this ought to go, but may not.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/initial-thoughts-on-hamas-s-war

[Satchel 6938]

How can anyone kinda paying attention think this poon deserves to be anywhere near the Oval?

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-israel-intel-russia-hamas-attack-1833094

Donald Trump's sharing of alleged classified intelligence to Russian officials in the White House has come under scrutiny amid a large-scale attack by the Hamas Islamist military group against Israel.

In May 2017, the former president defended his actions after he was found to have discussed sensitive details about an alleged Islamic State (ISIS) plot with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in the Oval Office. Trump said he had an absolute right to do so. The intel was said to have been provided to the U.S. from Israel.

[troph 24879]

20 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I would argue that seeing a Jewish name on a byline about a massacre, and the fact that the guy wrote a book about Bibi— and not bothering to check and see that the guy has written for The Post, The NYT, the Sunday Times, and left-leaning Haaretz; or that his book is objectively critical of Bibi—- but instead leaping to the conclusion of “he can’t be objective” is pretty much the definition of anti-Semitism. It’s an old trope that Jews can’t be trusted to be objective when it comes to other Jews.

I texted a Jewish client a message of solidarity, he went on a rant - a nuanced rant. A lot of people can see it, even when it’s their own people. But in the end, Hamas is a clearly horrific actor they will be annihilated and the world must support that. The Israelis need to show restraint, but Hamas hiding among civilians and putting their civilian people in harm  a way is equally problematic. The goal is to sacrifice their own to demonize the Jews. The pawns are the poor Palestinians, Israel should do more for peace but asking them to do that now is really out of line. No one told us to do more for peace after 9/11. 

[956 Worldwide 34728]

7 minutes ago, troph said:

I texted a Jewish client a message of solidarity, he went on a rant - a nuanced rant. A lot of people can see it, even when it’s their own people. But in the end, Hamas is a clearly horrific actor they will be annihilated and the world must support that. The Israelis need to show restraint, but Hamas hiding among civilians and putting their civilian people in harm  a way is equally problematic. The goal is to sacrifice their own to demonize the Jews. The pawns are the poor Palestinians, Israel should do more for peace but asking them to do that now is really out of line. No one told us to do more for peace after 9/11. 

I would hope, if not just for sparing innocent lives but also for Israel’s own strategic interest and national health, that they will learn from our errors after 9/11 and use that to inform their response. And I’ll expect a vigorous and nuanced debate in Israeli society and among Jews around the world— likely one that’s more informed and nuanced than the one we had after 9/11. It’s not always good to be so big you don’t have to listen to your friends. And we did have some friends after 9/11 who tried to warn us. 

[hobbes2702 13049]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Speaking of disinformation, is there confirmation that the IDF shoots up dance parties in Gaza and carries off women as hostages? How about shooting entire families in their beds at point blank range? 

What is the point of this post?

[troph 24879]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I would hope, if not just for sparing innocent lives but also for Israel’s own strategic interest and national health, that they will learn from our errors after 9/11 and use that to inform their response. And I’ll expect a vigorous and nuanced debate in Israeli society and among Jews around the world— likely one that’s more informed and nuanced than the one we had after 9/11. It’s not always good to be so big you don’t have to listen to your friends. And we did have some friends after 9/11 who tried to warn us. 

They likely won’t pause but it isn’t our place to blame them and it isn’t our place to say yeah but… atrocious terrorism deserves a decisive response. I would hope they would be students of history but it’s their people that were massacred, it’s their response to fashion and own. That’s my position. 

[Bullneck 19184]

3 hours ago, Welshy said:

They want to kill me. My only solution is to kill them first.

Relax, everyone in Wales is safe.

[956 Worldwide 34728]

7 minutes ago, troph said:

They likely won’t pause but it isn’t our place to blame them and it isn’t our place to say yeah but… atrocious terrorism deserves a decisive response. I would hope they would be students of history but it’s their people that were massacred, it’s their response to fashion and own. That’s my position. 

One fact that should be sobering— this many Jews haven’t been killed on one day since World War II. Which is another reason one should tread lightly when saying that the reports of atrocities and massacres are all disinformation, or that Jewish/Israeli reporters can’t be trusted as objective sources of information about massacres of Jews. 

There’s a dark— an extremely dark- history of denying atrocities against Jews and accusing Jewish witnesses of exaggerating or making them up in service of ulterior aims.  It’s not happening in a vacuum, it’s the type of allegation you should really pause before making because of the weight of it. 

[wildcat09 29355]

15 minutes ago, troph said:

I texted a Jewish client a message of solidarity, he went on a rant - a nuanced rant. A lot of people can see it, even when it’s their own people. But in the end, Hamas is a clearly horrific actor they will be annihilated and the world must support that. The Israelis need to show restraint, but Hamas hiding among civilians and putting their civilian people in harm  a way is equally problematic. The goal is to sacrifice their own to demonize the Jews. The pawns are the poor Palestinians, Israel should do more for peace but asking them to do that now is really out of line. No one told us to do more for peace after 9/11. 

We would've been smart to listen if someone had. Our response to 9/11 is one of the most self-destructive series of actions any nation has ever undertaken.

Hamas should be annihilated, but I think there's a real question if the type of campaign Israel is waging right now is capable of doing that. Hamas may very well emerge from this strengthened in the long-term. Hell, look at the Taliban in Afghanistan.  I don't know that there is a military solution to a group like Hamas (at least, I don't know that there is one that doesn't look like complete genocide). I think a political solution is more likely, and would certainly be preferable in that it would require less innocent bloodshed. But a political solution would require Likud to lose power, because they're pretty much full on fascist right now and fascists don't go in for political resolutions to problems.  As long as Likud is running things in Israel, they're going to empower Hamas or someone like them.  

But if moderates could take power in Israel and begin working with more moderate Palestinian groups? If they could get other Arab states to buy in to investing in developments in the Palestinian territories? Something like that could help minimize Hamas' influence and control, and ideally the Palestinians would eventually be able to deal with them themselves (it was, after all, primarily Iraqis that eliminated ISIS). There are a lot of people on both sides who want a peaceful resolution and the only reason a peaceful resolution isn't possible is because they lack the necessary political power, because Likud and Hamas are very fucking good at helping each other maintain their political control. 

Obviously this would take a long time and doesn't answer what Israel should do today, but as a moral matter I think it should guide how Israel responds today. I said it yesterday, but if the Irish and the English could make peace, it's possible here too.

[Welshy 907]

11 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Relax, everyone in Wales is safe.

FAFO. That's why there are no Brittons left in Brittony. Boggy coonts.

[chainsaw 9872]

2 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

Are all the journalists who wrote about Trump, positively or negatively, in the tank for him?

It really depends. I would say MAGA Haberman is in the tank for him or at the very least a useful idiot who gladly allows herself to be used as a mouthpiece in exchange for some access.

I have no idea what religion or ethnicity this london times writer is. But given their body of work it seems they might be too close to the subject matter to be objective about it. I've seen a lot of the initial rumors being walked back in the days following the attack. I don't think having a "wait and see" attitude and a healthy skepticism of unfamiliar news outlets is the same thing as antisemitism but ok.

[LCHorn 2623]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

But if moderates could take power in Israel and begin working with more moderate Palestinian groups?

Several posters have used the Mexican cartels to try to illustrate how we might respond if the roles were reversed, but I think they are better used to describe their own relationship with the Gaza Palestinians.  The common citizen is both a captive and a sympathizer and has unfortunately suffered under outlaw control for so long that there’s no other institution but the cartel/Hamas.  
 

Anyway, I’m sure that’s what somewhat frustrates the opposition parties in Israel-there simply isn’t anyone to work with (in Gaza) so any promises of security via diplomacy don’t strike Israelis as realistic.  
 

 

[troph 24879]

24 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

We would've been smart to listen if someone had. Our response to 9/11 is one of the most self-destructive series of actions any nation has ever undertaken.

Hamas should be annihilated, but I think there's a real question if the type of campaign Israel is waging right now is capable of doing that. Hamas may very well emerge from this strengthened in the long-term. Hell, look at the Taliban in Afghanistan.  I don't know that there is a military solution to a group like Hamas (at least, I don't know that there is one that doesn't look like complete genocide). I think a political solution is more likely, and would certainly be preferable in that it would require less innocent bloodshed. But a political solution would require Likud to lose power, because they're pretty much full on fascist right now and fascists don't go in for political resolutions to problems.  As long as Likud is running things in Israel, they're going to empower Hamas or someone like them.  

But if moderates could take power in Israel and begin working with more moderate Palestinian groups? If they could get other Arab states to buy in to investing in developments in the Palestinian territories? Something like that could help minimize Hamas' influence and control, and ideally the Palestinians would eventually be able to deal with them themselves (it was, after all, primarily Iraqis that eliminated ISIS). There are a lot of people on both sides who want a peaceful resolution and the only reason a peaceful resolution isn't possible is because they lack the necessary political power, because Likud and Hamas are very fucking good at helping each other maintain their political control. 

Obviously this would take a long time and doesn't answer what Israel should do today, but as a moral matter I think it should guide how Israel responds today. I said it yesterday, but if the Irish and the English could make peace, it's possible here too.

I agree but now is not the time. Just like us with 9/11 most Israelis want annihilation. The US has given a clear path for them to have it - not that the US would be able to stop them. It’s quite possible this is a fortunate opportunity for hardliners but few if any Israelis are going to insist on the approach you lay out right now. It is what it is, their 9/11 and they want blood not a solution right now. I expect a full invasion of Gaza. I have no serious criticism and I have no place to tell them they can’t have it. The atrocities are that horrific. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by troph

[InkaUtexas 26007]

Yes, they are. And Afghanistan was not the same as what is happening to Gaza. We did not level Kabul, Kandahar, Herat. We stayed way too long and tried to build a nation where we did not understand the culture and history. 

Iraq, yep, massive fuck up. 

Gaza gets hammered, civilians are going to be punished for shit they did not do. 

Israel has 12 days to figure shit out, get the hostages out, or go back to the way things were. 

 

[troph 24879]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Pretty good piece on where this ought to go, but may not.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/initial-thoughts-on-hamas-s-war

Good article. Worst loss of life for the Jews in a single day since the holocaust. Unreal.

loss of life defines their existence when their people are attacked it’s nothing like what we even experience. The American public has never been subject to systematic extermination. It’s hard to fathom the collective response to something like this. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by troph

[chainsaw 9872]

6 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

Several posters have used the Mexican cartels to try to illustrate how we might respond if the roles were reversed, but I think they are better used to describe their own relationship with the Gaza Palestinians.  The common citizen is both a captive and a sympathizer and has unfortunately suffered under outlaw control for so long that there’s no other institution but the cartel/Hamas.  
 

Anyway, I’m sure that’s what somewhat frustrates the opposition parties in Israel-there simply isn’t anyone to work with (in Gaza) so any promises of security via diplomacy don’t strike Israelis as realistic.  
 

 

Israel's approach to the administration of the territories it is occupying is counterproductive, and it saddens me to see so many regular people speak so callously about other human beings simply because they are Arab. There is a leadership void in the occupied territories and those voids get filled by those who promise a violent, even if futile, resistance. Hamas is more than just a terror group; they also somewhat fulfill the responsibilities of governing the community it purports to serve.

Imagine if Israel weren't neglecting its Arab population and actually treated them with dignity and respect. Clean water, equal rights, food and medicine. What clout would Hamas have at that point? What "let us protect you" argument would persuade the population when there's no longer any need for protection?

It's not right to forcibly displace people from their ancestral lands, humiliate them, and practically guarantee that they will act out and then turn around and call them barbarians who would "never" live peacefully.

[hobbes2702 13049]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Lot of people who have strong opinions about what Israel SHOULDN’T do in response to a murderous attack on its people.
Those posts are usually really light on what Israel SHOULD do.
Because the posts about how Israel shouldn’t be striking targets in Gaza amount to “once Hamas terrorists get back to home base in Gaza, they get to be home free.” Secondarily, those posts amount to an endorsement of Hamas’s practice of sheltering its military activities under the roofs of schools, medical facilities, etc. - Hamas uses human shields, and Israel should reward and encourage that tactic by sitting on its hands.
By your approaches, Hamas wins. In fact, they would be foolish if they don’t do MORE of what they’ve done: more civilian murders, more use of human shields. Because of Israel follows your direction, those tactics have worked, and will keep working. You are actually rewarding and encouraging Hamas’s strategy of putting Palestinian civilians in the line of fire. You’re going to get MORE of what you reward, not less.
Reality is that this is dirty, dirty fucking business. Israel has a right to strike Hamas. And if Hamas picks up a civilian and puts that person between Hamas and an Israeli bullet, the person’s death is on Hamas.

Dude fuck off with this. Yes Hamas is fucking terrible but you’re just advocating killing civilians at this point.

[Brisketexan 105161]

Dude fuck off with this. Yes Hamas is fucking terrible but you’re just advocating killing civilians at this point.

Am I? How about I pose the simple question to you that I posed before: what SHOULD Israel do in response to the biggest mass killing of Jews since the holocaust? Don’t tell us “don’t do this, and don’t do that” - tell us what they SHOULD DO?

And a corollary question: when your opponent uses human shields, and you REWARD that tactic by not striking your opponent…do you think you’ll get MORE use of human shields by that opponent, or LESS? Shit, Hamas might as well just have each fighter strap a civilian in front of them, and just waltz into Israel and shoot whoever they want. Israel can’t shoot back, that would be a war crime!

Hint: the war crime is being committed by Hamas, intentionally using civilians and civilian facilities as shields.

But again…in response to the greatest act of Jewish genocide since the holocaust, what do you give Israel permission to do?

[troph 24879]

53 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One fact that should be sobering— this many Jews haven’t been killed on one day since World War II. Which is another reason one should tread lightly when saying that the reports of atrocities and massacres are all disinformation, or that Jewish/Israeli reporters can’t be trusted as objective sources of information about massacres of Jews. 

There’s a dark— an extremely dark- history of denying atrocities against Jews and accusing Jewish witnesses of exaggerating or making them up in service of ulterior aims.  It’s not happening in a vacuum, it’s the type of allegation you should really pause before making because of the weight of it. 

100% 

goes back to defining a culture a society and a people. We cannot fathom being defined by existential massacre like they are. To cast doubt here is unbelievably obtuse. Israelis should not be confused with Russian propagandists. 

[troph 24879]

14 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Israel's approach to the administration of the territories it is occupying is counterproductive, and it saddens me to see so many regular people speak so callously about other human beings simply because they are Arab. There is a leadership void in the occupied territories and those voids get filled by those who promise a violent, even if futile, resistance. Hamas is more than just a terror group; they also somewhat fulfill the responsibilities of governing the community it purports to serve.

Imagine if Israel weren't neglecting its Arab population and actually treated them with dignity and respect. Clean water, equal rights, food and medicine. What clout would Hamas have at that point? What "let us protect you" argument would persuade the population when there's no longer any need for protection?

It's not right to forcibly displace people from their ancestral lands, humiliate them, and practically guarantee that they will act out and then turn around and call them barbarians who would "never" live peacefully.

American imperialism created Muslim terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan too. That shit gets no sympathy on 9/12 in NYC or anywhere in the US. Sorry, today isn’t the day for nuance. And if you read the article Twice posted to ask a government to do anything but defend its people right now is to ask it to foresake its very existence. Simply isn’t going to happen. 

[hobbes2702 13049]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Am I? How about I pose the simple question to you that I posed before: what SHOULD Israel do in response to the biggest mass killing of Jews since the holocaust? Don’t tell us “don’t do this, and don’t do that” - tell us what they SHOULD DO?

And a corollary question: when your opponent uses human shields, and you REWARD that tactic by not striking your opponent…do you think you’ll get MORE use of human shields by that opponent, or LESS? Shit, Hamas might as well just have each fighter strap a civilian in front of them, and just waltz into Israel and shoot whoever they want. Israel can’t shoot back, that would be a war crime!

Hint: the war crime is being committed by Hamas, intentionally using civilians and civilian facilities as shields.

But again…in response to the greatest act of Jewish genocide since the holocaust, what do you give Israel permission to do?

“When your opponent uses human shields and you reward that by not killing the human shield…”

I don’t give them permission ti do anything because I have nothing to do with this. I don’t need to answer what should they do to know they shouldn’t kill civilians because that’s just more dead people. I’m not even sure why this is controversial. Yea it’s probably not easy to go after Hamas and limit collateral damage, but that’s what they should do. Saying it’s Hamas’ fault and not Israel’s doesn’t make the person anymore alive.

What has happened is a horrible atrocity to humankind. More horrible atrocities certainly aren’t fixing it. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by hobbes2702

[chainsaw 9872]

Just now, troph said:

American imperialism created Muslim terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan too. That shit gets no sympathy on 9/12 in NYC or anywhere in the US. Sorry, today isn’t the day for nuance. And if you read the article Twice posted to ask a government to do anything but defend its people right now is to ask it to foresake its very existence. Simply isn’t going to happen. 

"Defend its people" is fine. Intentionally cutting off civilian water and food supplies is a crime against humanity for which there's no excuse nor any recent comparable atrocity that can be blamed on American imperialism. I'm going to complain about it right now and not a moment later because they are doing it to innocent people right now.

[Brisketexan 105161]

“When your opponent uses human shields and you reward that by not killing the human shield…”
I don’t need to answer what should they do to know they shouldn’t kill civilians because that’s just more dead people. I’m not even sure why this is controversial. Yea it’s probably not easy to go after Hamas and limit collateral damage, but that’s what they should do. Saying it’s Hamas’ fault and not Israel’s doesn’t make the person anymore alive.

What has happened is a horrible atrocity to humankind. More horrible atrocities certainly aren’t fixing it. 

Did I say “shoot every civilian in the way, who gives a shit?” No. There’s a calculus. But it’s dirty fucking business.
Read this thread:

You still haven’t answered what Israel SHOULD do, in your mind. Your refusal to do so is telling as hell. By continually saying “NOT THAT!,” but offering no meaningful alternative, your answer is functionally…Israel should do pretty much nothing. Own it. Or, tell us your suggestion.

[jimmyjazz 45991]

This whole "human shield" argument is specious.  Those innocent civilians aren't shields, they're sacrificial lambs.

[hobbes2702 13049]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Did I say “shoot every civilian in the way, who gives a shit?” No. There’s a calculus. But it’s dirty fucking business.
Read this thread:

 

You still haven’t answered what Israel SHOULD do, in your mind. Your refusal to do so is telling as hell. By continually saying “NOT THAT!,” but offering no meaningful alternative, your answer is functionally…Israel should do pretty much nothing. Own it. Or, tell us your suggestion.

 

Yup it’s very telling I think they should do everything possible to protect innocent lives. That’s literally my only concern. 
 

You can make up whatever argument you think I’m making. 

[chainsaw 9872]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

This whole "human shield" argument is specious.  Those innocent civilians aren't shields, they're sacrificial lambs.

Yes. It's mental gymnastics in service of justifying war crimes. There's no loophole here. You're not negotiating a free trial of HBO Max. You're giving soldiers permission to open fire on civilians. And the sickest part of it all is the far right has promoted the routine dehumanization of Palestinians so that they feel no remorse when the time comes to do the war crimes.

[Brisketexan 105161]

Yup it’s very telling I think they should do everything possible to protect innocent lives. That’s literally my only concern. 
 
You can make up whatever argument you think I’m making. 

What. Should. Israel. DO?

I’m not making up any argument. You’re the one who has made precisely 0.0 suggestions of what Israel SHOULD do in response to an act of genocide. Your silence is a powerful message.

[chainsaw 9872]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

What. Should. Israel. DO?

I’m not making up any argument. You’re the one who has made precisely 0.0 suggestions of what Israel SHOULD do in response to an act of genocide. Your silence is a powerful message.

Cede the lands, finance reconstruction (systemic investments), pay reparations (individualized compensation), abide by mutually binding obligations to keep radical ideologues far the fuck away from levers of power.

[hobbes2702 13049]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

What. Should. Israel. DO?

I’m not making up any argument. You’re the one who has made precisely 0.0 suggestions of what Israel SHOULD do in response to an act of genocide. Your silence is a powerful message.

They. Should. Not. Kill. Civilians.

I’m not a military strategist brisket. I’m a person on a message board. They shouldn’t kill people not part of Hamas. Why are you having so much trouble with this? You’re out here talking about how dirty the business as though that somehow makes killing innocent people ok. What fuck are we even talking about

[Brisketexan 105161]

Yes. It's mental gymnastics in service of justifying war crimes. There's no loophole here. You're not negotiating a free trial of HBO Max. You're giving soldiers permission to open fire on civilians. And the sickest part of it all is the far right has promoted the routine dehumanization of Palestinians so that they feel no remorse when the time comes to do the war crimes.

Oh. You’re concerned about war crimes? Interesting. I share your concern. We should probably be precise about what war crimes actually are. Let’s see what the international Red Cross has to say:

“In the context of international armed conflicts, this rule is set forth in the Third Geneva Convention (with respect to prisoners of war), the Fourth Geneva Convention (with respect to protected civilians) and Additional Protocol I (with respect to civilians in general).[1] Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts.[2]”

Huh. Interesting.

At every turn, you manage to accuse Israel of war crimes…skipping RIGHT OVER the fact that Hamas creates the exact condition you claim to be worried about, and - this is the important part - that IS a war crime…being committed by Hamas.

[troph 24879]

22 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

"Defend its people" is fine. Intentionally cutting off civilian water and food supplies is a crime against humanity for which there's no excuse nor any recent comparable atrocity that can be blamed on American imperialism. I'm going to complain about it right now and not a moment later because they are doing it to innocent people right now.

American imperialism is probably only second to British colonialism for why our world is the way it is - good and the bad. 
 

as for cutting off water and power - Hamas uses human shields will blend into civilian society, bases out of civilian buildings and otherwise begs for attacks on civilians. What should Israel do? There is no easy answer. 
 

as for the peace plan many advocate yeah probably. Not our place to force it or demand it. We were given wide latitude to defend Americans after 9/11 that included invading 2 countries half way around the globe. Hell we had countries join us. It’s not our place to tell Israel they cannot go after Hamas in Gaza. 
 

they have tried to warn civilians, they won’t get in the worlds way if an escape through Egypt is created and they have a hideous and hidden terrorists organization that hides among civilians in Gaza. Honestly, a siege is probably one of the few tactics that will work. And keep in mind Hamas is telling civilians to stay and be martyrs. What the fuck?
 

A proper and functioning government should help its people get out of harms way. Hamas has zero interest in that because the only way to demonize Israel is to force Israel to not defend itself or kill civilians to do it. God damn that’s on Hamas not Israel. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by troph

[Brisketexan 105161]

Cede the lands, finance reconstruction (systemic investments), pay reparations (individualized compensation), abide by mutually binding obligations to keep radical ideologues far the fuck away from levers of power.

You skipped the last part. It’s an important part.
“And all die/be violently expelled from the levant.” That you pretend that wouldn’t be the near-immediate result of your Pollyanna approach is just fucking ugly. You can’t skip the part where all the Jews die. That’s an important part.

They. Should. Not. Kill. Civilians.
I’m not a military strategist brisket. I’m a person on a message board. They shouldn’t kill people not part of Hamas. Why are you having so much trouble with this? You’re out here talking about how dirty the business as though that somehow makes killing innocent people ok. What fuck are we even talking about

Cool. When Hamas, perpetrators of genocide, hide among civilians, and continue to attack Israel from those locations, can Israel strike AT ALL, knowing there is some risk to civilians? You’re setting the rule. Enforce it. Simply say the conclusion you’re advocating for: so long as Hamas uses civilians as human shields, Israel should sit on its hands and let Hamas have free rein to do as it pleases.

Just say it. Own it.

[956 Worldwide 34728]

58 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

It really depends. I would say MAGA Haberman is in the tank for him or at the very least a useful idiot who gladly allows herself to be used as a mouthpiece in exchange for some access.

I have no idea what religion or ethnicity this london times writer is. But given their body of work it seems they might be too close to the subject matter to be objective about it. I've seen a lot of the initial rumors being walked back in the days following the attack. I don't think having a "wait and see" attitude and a healthy skepticism of unfamiliar news outlets is the same thing as antisemitism but ok.

LOL. I was almost ready to go there with you. You’re in an Israel thread with strong opinions, you link to Haaretz, you took the time to click on the reporter’s bio. But sure, “Anshel Pfeffer”, reports out of Israel, writes bios of Bibi Netanyahu. Just not enough context clues there to make an educated guess on that person’s heritage, really could be anything. 
 

But then doubling down and calling the Times of London an “unfamiliar news outlet” and the clueless act just jumps the shark. 
 

 

 

[hobbes2702 13049]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

You skipped the last part. It’s an important part.
“And all die/be violently expelled from the levant.” That you pretend that wouldn’t be the near-immediate result of your Pollyanna approach is just fucking ugly. You can’t skip the part where all the Jews die. That’s an important part.

Cool. When Hamas, perpetrators of genocide, hide among civilians, and continue to attack Israel from those locations, can Israel strike AT ALL, knowing there is some risk to civilians? You’re setting the rule. Enforce it. Simply say the conclusion you’re advocating for: so long as Hamas uses civilians as human shields, Israel should sit on its hands and let Hamas have free rein to do as it pleases.

Just say it. Own it.

Well at least the blood will be on their hands right? Why don’t you tell me what they should do because it seems like you think they should kill everyone and ask questions later.

[troph 24879]

17 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Yes. It's mental gymnastics in service of justifying war crimes. There's no loophole here. You're not negotiating a free trial of HBO Max. You're giving soldiers permission to open fire on civilians. And the sickest part of it all is the far right has promoted the routine dehumanization of Palestinians so that they feel no remorse when the time comes to do the war crimes.

You blame israel but it is Hamas who puts their people in the way. Israel is not trying to indiscriminately murder civilians. Hamas is doing that to Israel then hiding among civilians and asking them to stay to shield them when Israel comes seeking Hamas. The fact that you see this as an Israeli problem and not the problem created on both sides - the murder of Israeli civilians and the sacrifice of Palestinian civilians by fucking terrorists is mind blowing. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by troph

[956 Worldwide 34728]

17 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Cede the lands, finance reconstruction (systemic investments), pay reparations (individualized compensation), abide by mutually binding obligations to keep radical ideologues far the fuck away from levers of power.

WTF does this even mean and who gets to adjudicate whether or not a democratic election brought someone unacceptable to power? Does this work both ways? What happens when the other side says “fuck off, I just won the election.” 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20452]

[chainsaw 9872]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

WTF does this even mean and who gets to adjudicate whether or not a democratic election brought someone unacceptable to power? Does this work both ways? What happens when the other side says “fuck off, I just won the election.” 

After the civil war, we amended our constitution to make certain conduct disqualifying for holding some public offices. There's no reason the same can't be done in Israel and ceded territories. For example, I would make sure that any Hamas operatives were excluded.

[956 Worldwide 34728]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

After the civil war, we amended our constitution to make certain conduct disqualifying for holding some public offices. There's no reason the same can't be done in Israel and ceded territories. For example, I would make sure that any Hamas operatives were excluded.

This was a condition imposed on a defeated people (who deserved the defeat), and not a concession extracted by threat of terror. It cut only one way, not two ways.  Not to mention that it was extremely legally circumscribed and does nothing to address “radical idealogues” as such. It would not have worked had the agreement been “we will let you secede but promise not to re-elect Jeff Davis or any of his pals.”

[troph 24879]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This was a condition imposed on a defeated people (who deserved the defeat), and not a concession extracted by threat of terror. It cut only one way, not two ways.  Not to mention that it was extremely legally circumscribed and does nothing to address “radical idealogues” as such. It would not have worked had the agreement been “we will let you secede but promise not to re-elect Jeff Davis or any of his pals.”

While acknowledging that the vast majority of the newly empowered voters (southerners here or Palestinians there) don’t want a moderate but an extremist ready to start the war all over. 

[ClubWhatever 12152]

What did Hamas truly believe it would achieve here?   Was there a tactical reason for initiating this mess, or was it just pure hate/revenge?