Israel

[hobbes2702 13,045]

3 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

They should try to kill everyone in Hamas and drive them out of Gaza.  They should try to minimize collateral damage, but only to the extent of things like using precision weapons instead of cluster bombs, warning people to evacuate, targeting places where Hamas is and not just any population center, etc.  If the innocent civilians who want to leave are allowed passage to Egypt, the Israelis should allow and encourage that.  But if they choose to stay, or if Hamas forces them to stay and places them in target areas, Israel shouldn’t stop fighting.

This is a war.  It’s terrible.  But Israel should fight to win the war.  The alternative suggestion that they capitulate and then pay for Palestinian infrastructure and reparations to the Palestinians is not something any country would do.  Can you imagine someone on 9/12/2001 saying America’s response should be to give up and cede our military bases in the ME, acknowledge that we were at fault for forcing Al Qaida to attack by creating the conditions that made them hate us, and then pay to build them highways and give them reparations?   

Don’t start a war you can’t win, and don’t expect your enemy to lay down their arms because you use your own people as human shields.

I think this is a more than fair answer. Again, I don’t know shit about fuck. I just do not think we should be encouraging civilian casualty, which more than one person on this site has been doing.

[troph 24,819]

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I think this is a more than fair answer. Again, I don’t know shit about fuck. I just do not think we should be encouraging civilian casualty, which more than one person on this site has been doing.

I don’t think Israeli policy is to indiscriminately kill civilians. I do think they will move forward and accept significant civilian losses in order to destroy or severely diminish Hamas under the circumstances they find themselves in with how Hamas uses civilians. I don’t think Israel will chose to stand down because civilians will undoubtedly be in harms way. Again I believe that problem is created by Hamas. Hamas is not there to defend its people Hamas is there to terrorize and destroy Israel. 

[Brisketexan 105,154]

Well at least the blood will be on their hands right? Why don’t you tell me what they should do because it seems like you think they should kill everyone and ask questions later.

Really? After I just posted a thread describing the IDF’s policy/approach on considering the risks of civilian casualties? Which are quite plainly NOT “kill everyone and ask questions later.” They DO contemplate that sometimes, civilians will die. Depends on the target, the circumstance, and the degree of risk to civilian lives.
I propose that the IDF follow the calculus laid out in that thread. Which seeks to reduce the risk of civilian deaths, but realistically acknowledges that the risk can’t be eliminated entirely.

I don’t think Israeli policy is to indiscriminately kill civilians. I do think they will move forward and accept significant civilian losses in order to destroy or severely diminish Hamas under the circumstances they find themselves in with how Hamas uses civilians. I don’t think Israel will chose to stand down because civilians will undoubtedly be in harms way. Again I believe that problem is created by Hamas. Hamas is not there to defend its people Hamas is there to terrorize and destroy Israel. 

And this.

The war criminal when it comes to the human shield issue is Hamas. I find it fascinating that so many people want to skip right past that.

[NWBuck 8,570]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

What. Should. Israel. DO?
 

Hey... has anyone considered the longstanding American tradition of thoughts AND prayers?

[LCHorn 2,620]

1 hour ago, longhornmatt said:

Can you imagine someone on 9/12/2001 saying America’s response should be to give up and cede our military bases in the ME, acknowledge that we were at fault for forcing Al Qaida to attack by creating the conditions that made them hate us, and then pay to build them highways and give them reparations?

I don’t think anyone is saying that.  But, I think we can agree that with the benefit of hindsight we didn’t accomplish very much besides spend a lot of money. 
 

I imagine Hobbes and a couple of others are just playing devils advocate because none of us have any better idea than “let’s try to kill the bad guys” and it’s pretty likely that’s going to have consequences that kind of suck for everyone.  And I think we also know that retaliation is usually planned for and partly welcomed by the Islamist extremists.  They’ll be sending out videos of killing hostages and IDF all over the Middle East, which will help with fundraising, and if Hamas gets pummeled, oh well, more martyrs.  

[LCHorn 2,620]

I’ll add that the best outcome here probably includes a depopulation of Gaza and I don’t know what you do with that many people.  Egypt clearly doesn’t want them, Jordan is pretty filled up on tent cities full of Palestinians already, and no one else close is friendly (really to either Palestinian refugees or Israel).  
 

Saudi is in probably the best position to absorb them and they don’t really want anything from Israel; everything they want is from us.  Given the pressure to support Israel, I would think this undermines US leverage in a negotiation but possibly pushes a deal together that would otherwise be waiting for the Saudis to reduce their demands.  

[G650 14,263]

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

What. Should. Israel. DO?

I’m not making up any argument. You’re the one who has made precisely 0.0 suggestions of what Israel SHOULD do in response to an act of genocide. Your silence is a powerful message.

Is Hobbes the Israeli defense minister? He doesn't have to suggest anything man.

 

You sound as silly as all the fucking clowns in the other thread hypothesizing carrier group strength of the US or how many acronym groups are gonna be deployed.

[Dbeasy 15,066]

As I wake up this morning, I see that the debate in this thread raged late into the evening. 

The one observation I have is surprise over such poor viewpoints from two intelligent posters, chainsaw and hobbes2702.

Chainsaw’s posts reflect incredible naïveté, and both posters have failed to offer any realistic views of how to deal with this situation. I recognize that is difficult. I don’t have any good ideas for Israel myself. But because it’s difficult, criticizing Israel’s actions rings hollow.

You guys are smarter than this and I would have expected something more substantive from both of you, or at least an understanding of the difficulty Israel faces and the actions they have to take.

Innocent Palestinian people are suffering for their inability to get control of their country from radicals, much like Afghanistan.

It’s incredibly unfortunate, but the rest of the world has to protect itself, even if it means they suffer. It’s just reality.

[G650 14,263]

Lmao.

[RomaVicta 29,927]

8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One fact that should be sobering— this many Jews haven’t been killed on one day since World War II. Which is another reason one should tread lightly when saying that the reports of atrocities and massacres are all disinformation, or that Jewish/Israeli reporters can’t be trusted as objective sources of information about massacres of Jews. 

There’s a dark— an extremely dark- history of denying atrocities against Jews and accusing Jewish witnesses of exaggerating or making them up in service of ulterior aims.  It’s not happening in a vacuum, it’s the type of allegation you should really pause before making because of the weight of it. 

A lot of good posts on the same page as this one. I've pos repped people who disagree because of the strength of their arguments. 956 Worldwide has made some of those posts.

I read the first several paragraphs of Twice Horn's link. You now also reference the number of Jews killed in reference to the Holocaust. I don't think this is a productive direction as it's inapt, IMHO.

First, I don't think there is any sort of general denial of the atrocities here committed or much weight given to possible exaggerations from Israeli witnesses. I'm skeptical of Israel's policies and actions over the last several decades. The placement of Israel was problematic, but that point is moot. They're there. No matter, I recognize the brutality of what has occurred. I can also appreciate an established reporter distinguishing between what he knows and what he has heard second hand- the babies with cut throats. 

Second, going back to the emotional well of Holocaust referencing doesn't really fit a situation where the Jews, in this case, are anything but an underdog struggling to survive something they cannot resist. The US was not made an underdog by the attacks of 9/11. The US was not on the verge of helpless extermination. We're a military giant. It is the same for Israel in the MidEast. 

Politically organized racist murderers going home to home to slaughter Jews does recall brown shirts in the streets of Germany. But these killers do not have the backing of what would become a giant engine of conquest and atrocity. 

Putting current events in the context of WW2 is a dreadful error we do whenever we get the notion that we need to invade somebody. We're always the good guys who people love to see raining artillery on their homelands!

For Israel, the distortion of using WW2 puts them in the permanent state of victimhood and plucky resistance of the bully. No. They're the US in that world. They have the planes, tanks, trained and well-equipped soldiers, and advanced technology. They don't need an American carrier group off the shore of Gaza. They don't need the armed forces of the leading nations of NATO.

The joint statement from those NATO leaders likely has some political value in warning other outside powers not to get involved, so maybe it's a good idea. On the other hand, I'd prefer the US stay quiet and remote beyond a position of condemning the terrorist attacks and providing moral support.

We're not seeing a repeat of the Holocaust here. Leave those heartstrings be.

[RomaVicta 29,927]

8 hours ago, troph said:

The American public has never been subject to systematic extermination. It’s hard to fathom the collective response to something like this. 

Wrong side of the equation for us.

[immamac 42,859]

7 hours ago, ClubWhatever said:

What did Hamas truly believe it would achieve here?   Was there a tactical reason for initiating this mess, or was it just pure hate/revenge?

This is actually the only easy question to answer in this whole thread. 

Its background feeders/supporters wanted to start a conflict larger than a civil war and possible throw the entire world into chaos/war. 

Hamas just wanted to kill a bunch of jews, full stop, it's actually openly stated. 

[RomaVicta 29,927]

8 hours ago, chainsaw said:

Hamas is more than just a terror group; they also somewhat fulfill the responsibilities of governing the community it purports to serve.

That's my limited understanding as well. Hamas worked to better conditions in Gaza and make connections to the people which allowed them to, as I recall, supplant the incompetent PLO. 

I don't think it would have taken much economic effort for Israel to have done more than Hamas. However, I don't know that doing so would have prevented Hamas from finding other ways to win the favor of the populace. I don't think enough could be done by Israel to eradicate the resentment of being displaced.

I really just don't know what might have worked regarding Palestinian resistance to Israel and the outside forces encouraging that resistance. Would the common Palestinian, provided a means to a better life, decide that what he/she has in hand is better than the risks of resistance? We've had these people defined for us so many different ways that I can't pretend to have a clue.

No matter what, your point about how Israel should dispose themselves towards Palestinians is a solid one.

[immamac 42,859]

Part 2 of the above. The thing I think people are missing here, because it's so hard not to have an emotional response to the absolute inhumanity and barbaric activity of Hamas is that the response from Israel on Israel's behalf is actually the least important and nuanced part of this for the world at large. It's largely viewed as "everyone against the Muslims" here. Both of these peoples are pawns in a much much much larger game that everyone is falling into the trap on in the general public. Partly because the major governments don't want their people to think they are so close to all out world war. 

This is a sparking mess that is sitting next to an open powder keg that is the next World War. This has way more spread way faster than an irrational Russia invading Ukraine. This is a global alliance conflict involving religions and ideology that removes coherent logical thought from major militaries around the world. 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

I see many posts stating something like “nothing excuses what Hamas did, but…” this is what happens when you systematically oppress people. That’s not actually true. Don’t get me wrong, I would certainly be in the fight back camp, but not the rape and beheadings. Tibet has occupied since 1951, and they have not fired rockets indiscriminately at China, or raped any women, or beheaded any civilians. Crimea was occupied in 2014, and again, no beheadings or rape. France was occupied from 1940-1944, same outcome. Oppression leads to people fighting back, absolutely, but in no way does that excuse or explain committing atrocities against civilians. That is terrorism, and it’s continued use gives credence to the accusations of the other party. 

[troph 24,819]

18 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Wrong side of the equation for us.

Of course. 

[G650 14,263]

9 minutes ago, immamac said:

Part 2 of the above. The thing I think people are missing here, because it's so hard not to have an emotional response to the absolute inhumanity and barbaric activity of Hamas is that the response from Israel on Israel's behalf is actually the least important and nuanced part of this for the world at large. It's largely viewed as "everyone against the Muslims" here. Both of these peoples are pawns in a much much much larger game that everyone is falling into the trap on in the general public. Partly because the major governments don't want their people to think they are so close to all out world war. 

This is a sparking mess that is sitting next to an open powder keg that is the next World War. This has way more spread way faster than an irrational Russia invading Ukraine. This is a global alliance conflict involving religions and ideology that removes coherent logical thought from major militaries around the world. 

[troph 24,819]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

That’s not the first time this was said. 
 

It’s been talked about quite a bit the last few days by half a dozen folks.

[hobbes2702 13,045]

1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

As I wake up this morning, I see that the debate in this thread raged late into the evening. 

The one observation I have is surprise over such poor viewpoints from two intelligent posters, chainsaw and hobbes2702.

Chainsaw’s posts reflect incredible naïveté, and both posters have failed to offer any realistic views of how to deal with this situation. I recognize that is difficult. I don’t have any good ideas for Israel myself. But because it’s difficult, criticizing Israel’s actions rings hollow.

You guys are smarter than this and I would have expected something more substantive from both of you, or at least an understanding of the difficulty Israel faces and the actions they have to take.

Innocent Palestinian people are suffering for their inability to get control of their country from radicals, much like Afghanistan.

It’s incredibly unfortunate, but the rest of the world has to protect itself, even if it means they suffer. It’s just reality.

I literally discuss the difficulties in basically every post I made but sure thing guy.

[G650 14,263]

1 minute ago, troph said:

That’s not the first time this was said. 
 

It’s been talked about quite a bit the last few days by half a dozen folks.

It is a response to every idiot opining about what Israel should do.

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

15 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

The "beheaded babies" story doesn't seem to be accurate per the latest from the IDF (posted it in the other thread). That obviously doesn't mean Hamas hasn't killed babies and it may have been started as an honest mistake rather than an attempt to exaggerate Hamas' atrocities. This kind of shit happens all the time and sometimes it's propaganda and sometimes it's not. But I think it's important to note when stories like that turn out to be inaccurate. 

In today's social media world, it doesn't matter if it's true or not.  The fact that it was out for hours or days before possibly being debunked has no meaning.  Millions of people believe it already and won't be swayed back.

[GW Hayduke 1,953]

4 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I see many posts stating something like “nothing excuses what Hamas did, but…” this is what happens when you systematically oppress people. That’s not actually true. Don’t get me wrong, I would certainly be in the fight back camp, but not the rape and beheadings. Tibet has occupied since 1951, and they have not fired rockets indiscriminately at China, or raped any women, or beheaded any civilians. Crimea was occupied in 2014, and again, no beheadings or rape. France was occupied from 1940-1944, same outcome. Oppression leads to people fighting back, absolutely, but in no way does that excuse or explain committing atrocities against civilians. That is terrorism, and it’s continued use gives credence to the accusations of the other party. 

Agree. That is why everyone is against Hamas, but that doesn't mean we should be against the Palestinian people.  We should be for the Palestinian people just like we should be fore the Israeli people.  We should be against Hamas just like we should be against Bibi, the Likud party, and Israel's current government.  We should step in and root out right wing parties from both sides.

Hamas took power in 2004 and have not allowed elections since then.  

For people asking for solutions:

The US, regional partners, and the international community needs to step in and push aside Hamas - just like they should take a hard ethical stance and push aside Israel's current government.  

For both Palestine and Israel, the UN should impose restrictions on their democratic process - no right wing parties.  

The UN should impose a hard border and provide security for a generation or two.  

The UN should impose restrictions on Israeli land development, pull settlers out of disputed areas, and manage all disputed holy sites. 

The UN should build up the Palestinian economy and education system.

There is no solution if Hamas and the Likud party stay in power.

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

For both Palestine and Israel, the UN should impose restrictions on their democratic process - no right wing parties.  

 

Can we do this for the US too?

[SydneyCarton 48,108]

Quoting a poster from the DT thread who dig up the Hamas charter, after the death of their founder. Seems appropriate to the discussion here. 
 

8 minutes ago, BlueGreySky said:

I had never read the Hamas charter statements, but after hearing about that Dukhan's death I looked: 

Goals of the HAMAS:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)

On the destruction of Israel:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)

The call to jihad:

"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)

Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:

"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

"Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)

Anti-Semitic incitement:

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)

"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)

"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)

So yeah, that doesn’t exactly make me think “yeah, Hamas took their responsibility to govern Gaza and it’s people seriously.”

I don’t think we have the right to judge Israel’s response right now, even if it will be horrible. If someone invaded my home and raped my wife and killed my son, I wouldn’t be reasonable. That’s where Israel is at now. 

[wildcat09 29,355]

That sound you hear is every historian losing their minds.

[locodos 5,387]

7 hours ago, NWBuck said:

Hey... has anyone considered the longstanding American tradition of thoughts AND prayers?

That's like putting unleaded in your diesel.  Kinda the same but not compatible

[tokamak 6,431]

How does Israel know exactly which buildings in Gaza are holding weapons or Hamas leaders right now, but they didn't have intel before the attack that Hamas was stockpiling rockets? That kind of strains credibility.

[SydneyCarton 48,108]

12 minutes ago, tokamak said:

How does Israel know exactly which buildings in Gaza are holding weapons or Hamas leaders right now, but they didn't have intel before the attack that Hamas was stockpiling rockets? That kind of strains credibility.

I don’t think so. It seems they ignored the border because they thought it was invulnerable, and there wasn’t the chatter you’d expect for a major buildup until hours before. They ignored Egypt. That doesn’t mean they weren’t still laboriously tracking internal stockpiles, tunnels, etc. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5,562]

Making the rounds on Twitter this morning

 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Once again a thread on Surly shows I might just be out of touch with almost everybody.  Just putting some thoughts out there, non unique, and most will be shouted down.

Quote

What happened to Israelis on Oct. 7 has been happening to the people of Gaza in every escalation for more than a decade, while the international community stood back and allowed it. The world is complicit in the active dehumanization of Gazans, people who were collectively deprived of their basic human rights, and now all of a sudden, everyone is shocked that said people are doing something about it, as hard as it is to fathom their actions?

Quote

 

Palestinians in the biggest open air prison on earth are kept like animals behind fences with no clean water, electricity, hope, or dignity. In the 2014 Gaza war, an incomprehensible number of Palestinian children were killed — over 500. Just last year, 146 Palestinians in the West Bank were killed by Israeli soldiers and settlers. Where was President Biden when he allowed all this to happen, while arming and supporting the ethnic cleansing machine all those years? The writing was on the wall.

Israel’s “security doctrine,” which is another fancy word for “revenge,” essentially demands a disproportionate ratio between Israeli and Palestinian casualties; for every Israeli soldier or civilian killed or captured, Israeli politicians and generals will demand 10 Palestinian heads. Judging by that logic, thousands of women, children, and men in Gaza may now pay that price with their lives.

 

 

https://www.972mag.com/gaza-biden-revenge-violence/

("+972 Magazine is an independent, online, nonprofit magazine run by a group of Palestinian and Israeli journalists")

Some worthy reads when discussing revenge and who is committing what crimes.  Longer reads, not easy snippets. I confess to not having read all of the first one, yet, as its basically a book.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

speaking of children:

https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2021/palestine-know-their-names/index.html

(yeah, that source is going to get hammered.  but names are names, and children are children)

and there are plenty of videos that are disturbing.  one i saw a while back, that i can't find now was a Palestinian teen shot by an IDF while his brother stood near him.  the brother knows he can't fight back but he's obviously full of distraught rage.  so he bangs his own head as hard as he can against a wall in wailing despair.  I usually avoid these videos as I find all gruesome videos too disturbing.
 

As to what should be done, maybe I'll listen to someone who lives in the area:
 

Quote

 

No Israeli leader is telling the truth. There is no military solution to Gaza, because the problem in Gaza is political — namely, keeping millions of people under siege, in an open-air prison, under an apartheid regime. It is impossible to defeat Hamas, because Hamas is a political force that leads Palestinian society in Gaza, and the main fuel that sustains it is unrelenting Israeli oppression.

There is, however, a political solution: one that involves direct negotiations with Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization; lifting the blockade on Gaza; Palestinian sovereignty; and connecting the residents of the Gaza Strip with the rest of the country. There is no way to do this without giving up land in the West Bank and Jerusalem, and thus it has not been done. Responsible negotiations, supported by the international community, have the potential to diminish the influence of the most radical factions within Hamas more effectively than targeted assassinations and the destruction of Gaza neighborhoods ever could.

 

 

https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-hamas-political-solution-gaza/

[immamac 42,859]

45 minutes ago, G650 said:

It is a response to every idiot opining about what Israel should do.

They should do whatever the fuck we (the united front of allies, not just the US) tell them to outside of what they were doing before this happened. Minor skirmish shit, maybe what they are doing now. Sucks and it's also horrible, but let's not pretend like this wasn't happening before just a bit quieter and not as "intense" because of the emotional shit storm. They have been poking and fucking with each other since I've been alive. 

It takes time to get this many governments and militaries on the same page with an action plan spanning months to years not days to weeks on contingent action of additional countries getting involved on "behalf of Palestine". There won't be an answer this week outside of show of support and affirmation, I expect we get more clarity on positioning and what Israel is allowed to do in another 2 weeks. Until then it's going to be nightly news fodder and everyone is gonna be spun up and outraged. 

I'm not trying to diminish people's emotions, feelings and actual real damages. Lives are being ruined, lots and lots of them, but this is war. War cannot be waged with emotions or bad things happen. 

War: a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state. 

This is a hot conflict, it will remain hot until there is a resolution and we need that heat to be contained and not engulf the world more than we need to fuel the fire. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5,562]

Also, aluminum hat conspiracy thought: what if the goal is to draw a bunch of Isreali forces into Gaza then set off a nuke in a tunnel under the city? Ultimate jihad which the rest of the Arabic world could leverage as Israel's military would be decimated. 

[bernorange 8,362]

With respect to the geopolitic vis a vis Saudi Arabia (maybe old news to y'all, but I didn't see it discussed):

Quote

Saudi Arabia suggested Israel was to blame for Saturday’s deadly attack by Hamas, as it called for an immediate end to the violence between Israelis and Palestinians.

‌Riyadh was edging closer to a historic deal to normalise relations with Jerusalem, a taboo in the Arab world because of the Palestinian issue, before hostilities erupted.

In a sign that Saudi Arabia may not be ready to abandon the delicate US-backed diplomacy, the Kingdom did not explicitly blame Israel or back Hamas.

‌But, in a veiled criticism, it said on Saturday it had warned of the dangers of Israeli treatment of Palestinians leading to an “explosion of the situation”.

Crown prince Mohammed bin Salman told Fox News a fortnight ago that normalised ties were “getting closer every day” but the issue of the Palestinian territories would have to be solved.
...
The Saudi Arabian foreign ministry said on Saturday: ‌“We are following the unprecedented developments between a number of Palestinian factions and Israel occupation forces which has led to a high level of violence on a number of fronts.

“The Kingdom calls for an immediate halt to the escalation between the two sides, the protection of civilians, and restraint.”

It added: “The Kingdom recalls its repeated warnings of the dangers of the explosion of the situation as a result of the continued occupation, the deprivation of the Palestinian people of their legitimate rights, and the repetition of systematic provocations against its sanctities.”

‌Hugh Lovatt, a senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations think tank and an expert on the Middle East, Israel and Palestine, said: “The statement is pretty neutral and reflective of how Riyadh is trying to balance various interests.”

“It will be concerned that this could lead to broader regional escalation which could undermine its ongoing normalisation talks with the US and Israel, and potentially further bolster Iranian influence.”

Greater Iranian influence could upset the new and “delicate detente” with Iran, he said, and Saudi Arabia had long-held animosity towards Hamas.

But Riyadh has also “sought to portray itself as a committed and active supporter of Palestinian rights,” Mr Lovatt said.

He added: “It will also be aware that there is still a strong pro-Palestinian public opinion in the Kingdom which will be enthused by the current scenes of Palestinian triumph.”

Mr Lovatt warned: “This balancing act will become even more difficult should Israel’s retaliation provoke a large Palestinian death toll in Gaza, as seems likely. In that case, expect them to take a stronger line against Israel.”

Hizbollah, the Iran-backed militia in Lebanon, praised the “heroic” attack, which it said was a “decisive response to Israel’s continued occupation and a message to those seeking normalisation with Israel”.
...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/saudi-arabia-suggests-israel-to-blame-for-war-despite-steps-to-normalise-relations/ar-AA1hQdy3

It doesn't sound like there is a path forward where Israel will successfully normalize relations with Saudi Arabia. 

[chainsaw 9,870]

9 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh. You’re concerned about war crimes? Interesting. I share your concern. We should probably be precise about what war crimes actually are. Let’s see what the international Red Cross has to say:

“In the context of international armed conflicts, this rule is set forth in the Third Geneva Convention (with respect to prisoners of war), the Fourth Geneva Convention (with respect to protected civilians) and Additional Protocol I (with respect to civilians in general).[1] Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts.[2]”

Huh. Interesting.

At every turn, you manage to accuse Israel of war crimes…skipping RIGHT OVER the fact that Hamas creates the exact condition you claim to be worried about, and - this is the important part - that IS a war crime…being committed by Hamas.

I'm focused on Israel's conduct because someone asked what Israel should do. I think that's a fair question, so I attempted not only to answer it, but also to elaborate on what the subject of your question (Israel) should not be doing, which is topical and perhaps even more important in view of what the subject of your question (Israel) currently is doing to the object of your question (Palestinian civilians).

We can agree that the use of human shields is a war crime. We can also agree that Hamas is guilty of having done it. We might debate how frequently Hamas commits that crime, but there would be very little point in such a debate. I did not discuss Hamas's war crimes mainly for two reasons: nobody has asked what Hamas should be doing and nobody realistically believes Hamas is in a position to end this conflict.

If I had to decide which is worse, the practice of using human shields (in which Hamas victimizes a number of Palestinian civilians) or the practice of inflicting collective punishments (in which Israel victimizes a larger number of Palestinian civilians), I would say that the infliction of collective punishments harms more people and is therefore worse and I would then ask why we are even making the comparison.

Palestinian lives matter, and no matter how much harm Hamas has inflicted or how much existential fear Hamas has caused, Palestinian lives do not matter any less and are they are no less worthy of basic necessities.

[Aqua Buddha 14,598]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

I see many posts stating something like “nothing excuses what Hamas did, but…” this is what happens when you systematically oppress people. That’s not actually true. Don’t get me wrong, I would certainly be in the fight back camp, but not the rape and beheadings. Tibet has occupied since 1951, and they have not fired rockets indiscriminately at China, or raped any women, or beheaded any civilians. Crimea was occupied in 2014, and again, no beheadings or rape. France was occupied from 1940-1944, same outcome. Oppression leads to people fighting back, absolutely, but in no way does that excuse or explain committing atrocities against civilians. That is terrorism, and it’s continued use gives credence to the accusations of the other party. 

Add in blacks in the American South.  They weren't killing white women and children and saying "whites made us do it," despite legitimate, terroristic, systematic oppression.

[Aqua Buddha 14,598]

12 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Also, aluminum hat conspiracy thought: what if the goal is to draw a bunch of Isreali forces into Gaza then set off a nuke in a tunnel under the city? Ultimate jihad which the rest of the Arabic world could leverage as Israel's military would be decimated. 

I've thought that as well.  Also, what if there is a nuke that was smuggled into Gaza, it somehow gets set off during the bombings and then they'll say Israel nuked Gaza?

[RomaVicta 29,927]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

That sound you hear is every historian losing their minds.

Holy shit. It commemorates the conquest of Judea and features the depiction below as a detail from Titus' triumph.

I guess Italy using this monument is like the Germans lighting up a Nazi building with stars of David.

History has been so hard on those people.

 

[cactusflinthead 27,601]

Goddamn. Night shift got testy

[Red Five 40,861]

47 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Also, aluminum hat conspiracy thought: what if the goal is to draw a bunch of Isreali forces into Gaza then set off a nuke in a tunnel under the city? Ultimate jihad which the rest of the Arabic world could leverage as Israel's military would be decimated. 

Think this was pretty much the plot of The Dark Knight Rises.

['stache 21,818]

10 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

They. Should. Not. Kill. Civilians.

I’m not a military strategist brisket. I’m a person on a message board. They shouldn’t kill people not part of Hamas. Why are you having so much trouble with this? You’re out here talking about how dirty the business as though that somehow makes killing innocent people ok. What fuck are we even talking about

It’s exactly what Bibi and friends have set up for decades. Treat Palestinians like prisoners, control their rations, harass them daily, ignore borders, take their land, and when they eventually give up hope and terrorist factions inevitably arise and act out, anyone who dares criticizes Israel's actions can be accused of supporting "extermination of the Jews." That is obviously one of Hamas' goals, and I have no doubt many Palestinians would agree based on their lived experiences, but most of them aren't joining Hamas or participating in the atrocities. I imagine if Palestinians had been treated as people worthy of self-determination there would be far less breeding of terrorism. Sure, many would still believe Israel should not exist, but that position can be taken based on the country being created on land that was already occupied. It doesn't have to be based on believing Jews should be eradicated.

As far as what Israel should they do at the current moment, I don’t know, I'm not a military man. My initial thought is this post, Israel has to fight back, but should try to limit collateral damage. Sometimes when fighting terrorists the bigger force should take the high road knowing that terrorists don’t fight by international norms and will use civilians as shields. Israel’s military is as strong and sophisticated as any and the US and friends will always support them. Hamas cannot win, period. It has to be nasty unfortunately at the current moment to stop the atrocities, but I hate that we have to ignore the last 50 years leading to this moment.

I fully believe that Bibi knew of the threat and let it happen. It's been part of the strategy for decades. A few terrorist attacks here and there allows them to continue justifying oppressing Palestinians out of "self defense." I don't think he expected it to be this bad and he should have been prepared to put it down quickly. The media reports support this narrative. Bibi is also now an authoritarian and it angers me seeing all the western powers cozy up to him now out of necessity. Again, it was all part of the long term strategy. You can't dare criticize Israel's conduct or offer any support for Palestinian peoples (different from Hamas) without being called an anti-Semite. Add in that this appears to be more of a proxy for other middle east concerns. 

So I guess the solution is the status quo. Israel will crush Hamas killing civilians in the process, Palestinians will continue being oppressed, West Bank settlements will continue to expand, and tensions will remain high until the next terrorist attack with the west all "Standing with Israel." Its truly the never ending story. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by 'stache

[Brisketexan 105,154]

47 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Once again a thread on Surly shows I might just be out of touch with almost everybody.  Just putting some thoughts out there, non unique, and most will be shouted down.

 

https://www.972mag.com/gaza-biden-revenge-violence/

("+972 Magazine is an independent, online, nonprofit magazine run by a group of Palestinian and Israeli journalists")

Some worthy reads when discussing revenge and who is committing what crimes.  Longer reads, not easy snippets. I confess to not having read all of the first one, yet, as its basically a book.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

speaking of children:

https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2021/palestine-know-their-names/index.html

(yeah, that source is going to get hammered.  but names are names, and children are children)

and there are plenty of videos that are disturbing.  one i saw a while back, that i can't find now was a Palestinian teen shot by an IDF while his brother stood near him.  the brother knows he can't fight back but he's obviously full of distraught rage.  so he bangs his own head as hard as he can against a wall in wailing despair.  I usually avoid these videos as I find all gruesome videos too disturbing.
 

As to what should be done, maybe I'll listen to someone who lives in the area:
 

 

https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-hamas-political-solution-gaza/

Perhaps you'll be surprised by my response: every bit of what you shared is horrific, and I have long thought that the Israeli state has been and continues to commit crimes against humanity.  Israel has the uncleanest of hands.

But in the end, we get to this end-game.....how do you negotiate?  Here are the parties positions:

Party A: "my position is that you should be wiped off the face of the earth.  Every man, woman, and child of your people should be slaughtered, wherever they may be found, behind every rock, every tree, until none of you are left on this earth."

Party B: "Hmmmm....I don't think I can give on that.  And to be honest, it's a bit of a touchy subject, being that assholes have been trying to exterminate my people for 2,000+ years, and made a pretty good run at it last century.  How about I give you more freedom and autonomy, but you pinkie swear NOT to work to exterminate all my people?"

Party A:  "Did I fucking stutter?  Die.  All of you."

As I said, I don't absolve Israel of its many crimes.  But there is an element of degree, and a dividing line - those things are undeniable. 

One party will take action that will result in harm and death to civilians (including children) if it is necessary to attack an enemy that has sworn to exterminate that party.  It may be more casual and careless about that than anyone can support, but its mission is NOT "exterminate civilians and children."  

The other party will kill civilians and children whenever and wherever it can, until the end of time.  It is the foundation of its very mission: "exterminate the jews wherever they may be found."

Neither path is anything I like.  But the second one is incompatible with two groups of humans living on earth.  The Hamas position is unambiguous, and these are the options: genocide of the jews, or death of the Palestinians as they try to kill all the jews.

If you are a jew, which of those options do you pick?  We are facing a situation where the outcome is going to be horrific, but unavoidable: one group will be eliminated from the earth, and the other will be committing genocide.  Pick which group you want to fill which role.  Both sides lose.  Humanity loses.

The ONLY thing that can change that calculus is for the side seeking genocide to.....stop seeking genocide.  Take genocide off the table, and a world of options opens up.  At this point, it doesn't matter who started what.  It doesn't matter who did the latest bad thing, or more of a bad thing.  In a two-side dynamic where one side's position is "genocide," there is no negotiation or compromise to be had.

The Palestinian people can make a plain statement that jews have a right to exist on this planet, and they reject any leadership that preaches otherwise, and at that point, they have my full support in whatever negotiation they choose to undertake.  Indeed, I would suggest that they have and have reclaimed the moral high ground, and should have great leverage - I would certainly be arguing in their favor at most every turn.  On the contrary, so long as extermination of all jewish life on earth is the cornerstone of the Palestinian negotiating position, nothing can be done, nothing can be improved, and Israel would be stupid to try.

 

[Brisketexan 105,154]

4 minutes ago, 'stache said:

So I guess the solution is the status quo. Israel will crush Hamas killing civilians in the process, Palestinians will continue being oppressed, West Bank settlements will continue to expand, and tensions will remain high until the next terrorist attack with the west all "Standing with Israel." Its truly the never ending story. 

And that's the end conclusion.  We're too far down this road for anyone to turn back.  Some things are irreparably broken.  This is one of those things.  The Palestinians will hate the jews until the heat death of the universe, and will seek their extinction.  The jews will fight back, regularly being overly heavy-handed, provoking more response.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

I'm an American Jew.  I've visited Israel once but have no real connection to the country, no family over there, nobody that I remain in regular contact with, etc.  Like many other American Jews, I'm sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and not a fan of how the Israeli government has handled that situation.  May just be my limited perspective, but in recent years I've noticed a real shift in sympathy towards the Palestinians and a desire from the rest of the world for the Israeli government to figure out a solution that  works.

Yeah, that's all fucked now. 

I understand the frustrations coming from the pro-Palestinian side, but this is the worst thing that could have happened for your cause.  I've never seen my Jewish friends this despondent.  The pro-Israeli hardliners will use this for the rest of their lives as justification for whatever comes next and you can already see how countries all over the world are trying to outdo each other with their public support of Israel.  

I'm not here to argue fairness, as it is without question that what has happened to innocent Palestinians over the previous decades is not even remotely fair.  But perception is the key to widespread change, and what Hamas has done in regards to perception is absolutely detrimental in the quest for peace.

 

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

11 hours ago, Bullneck said:

Relax, everyone in Wales is safe.

Black lung begs to differ

[wildcat09 29,355]

Brisket, you're treating this like two nation-states at war. This isn't that. The majority of the Palestinian people are not "Party A." They're not a party to this at all.  Netanyahu made sure of that. 

I don't even know what you have in mind as a possible form of plain statement from the Palestinian people that Jews have a right to exist. Even when they're not being bombed, given the control Hamas has in Gaza, how are they supposed to do that? It's a ridiculous expectation to have.

[Huckleberry 32,981]

43 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Add in blacks in the American South.  They weren't killing white women and children and saying "whites made us do it," despite legitimate, terroristic, systematic oppression.

And what if they had? Did you hate Django once he killed a woman? 

I personally would have no issue with the story of a slave uprising that slaughtered the entire family of their captors. I find it unconscionable that anyone would have a problem with that. 

[cactusflinthead 27,601]

 

[LCHorn 2,620]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If you are a jew, which of those options do you pick? 

I was thinking about that question at 2 in the morning when I was posting and trying to think of outside of the box solutions.  One idea was to invite the Israelis to immigrate to the US.  Not all of them will come but it's a way out for some from the cycle of violence. 

[Js1 85,372]

6 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I'm an American Jew.  I've visited Israel once but have no real connection to the country, no family over there, nobody that I remain in regular contact with, etc.  Like many other American Jews, I'm sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and not a fan of how the Israeli government has handled that situation.  May just be my limited perspective, but in recent years I've noticed a real shift in sympathy towards the Palestinians and a desire from the rest of the world for the Israeli government to figure out a solution that  works.

Are you me? I’m still at this thinking. I can separate Palestinians from Hamas. I can separate Republicans from Americans, the ADP from Germans, regular Israelis from Bibi, etc. 

Both “governments” have been total ass and completely screwed over their citizens. Both sides need to change, and change a lot and compromise. But I cannot fully flip over to Israel’s side bc they treated Palestinians like sub-humans. And Bibi has basically acknowledged that behavior is good for him/Likud. Gross

Edited October 11, 2023 by Js1

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I personally would have no issue with the story of a slave uprising that slaughtered the entire family of their captors. I find it unconscionable that anyone would have a problem with that. 

Nat Turner is not beloved in the South today, but I'm sure that feeling of animosity is dying as the generations pass.