Israel

['stache 21815]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And that's the end conclusion.  We're too far down this road for anyone to turn back.  Some things are irreparably broken.  This is one of those things.  The Palestinians will hate the jews until the heat death of the universe, and will seek their extinction.  The jews will fight back, regularly being overly heavy-handed, provoking more response.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'm legitimately curious if you think Israel should bear any blame for this aspect of the conflict. You seem very much focused on "they want to eradicate the Jews." Even if that is true for many (which I think is way overbroad), don't you think there is some logic to that belief for people who have lived under the oppressive thumb of Israel for decades? It's like abusing a dog for years then letting it lose and when it bites someone you have no choice but to put it down. The decision to put it down was probably the right call, but why should we ignore the circumstances that led to that outcome?

Edited October 11, 2023 by 'stache

[wildcat09 29354]

51 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Add in blacks in the American South.  They weren't killing white women and children and saying "whites made us do it," despite legitimate, terroristic, systematic oppression.

Um, some absolutely did that. 

[Anastasis 23469]

Some posters here must have really struggled in history class. 

[locodos 5387]

1 minute ago, LCHorn said:

I was thinking about that question at 2 in the morning when I was posting and trying to think of outside of the box solutions.  One idea was to invite the Israelis to immigrate to the US.  Not all of them will come but it's a way out for some from the cycle of violence. 

Non starter...  GQP support for Israel exists only to ensure the Jews are returned to the Holy Land so that we can have the End Times.   You have to remember the GQP base were the ones cos-playing Nazis in Charlottesville chanting "We will not be replaced".    

Nevermind the fact that Israelis have fought for a homeland and they aren't likely to settle for UP Michigan or the like.

[chainsaw 9868]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The Palestinians will hate the jews until the heat death of the universe, and will seek their extinction.

This is hyperbolic. You're fixated on stray statements from the most radical elements of that society and then imputing those sentiments to millions of people without any basis for doing so. Plenty of people have fled Palestine as refugees, integrated into the societies of the safe places they have made their new homes, and all but a handful of those refugees have done anything to "seek extinction" of Jews.

If those refugees could feel safe in their ancestral homelands, many would prefer to return. The only reason they cannot feel safe is because the nation state with all the power has grown more brutal and inhuman. Give peace a meaningful chance here.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

I've been wondering how is the ADL-hating alt-right is responding to all of this. Has to be quite the conundrum.

[Brisketexan 105139]

I'm legitimately curious if you think Israel should bear any blame for this aspect of the conflict. You seem very much focused on "they want to eradicate the Jews." Even if that is true for many (which I think is way overbroad), don't you think there is some logic to that belief for people who have lived under the oppressive thumb of Israel for decades? It's like abusing a dog for years then letting it lose and when it bites someone you have no choice but to put it down. The decision to put it down was probably the right call, but why should we ignore the circumstances that led to that outcome?

We absolutely should not ignore those circumstances. Like I said, the ultimate outcome here will be that one group ceases to exist, and the other is an abhorrent pariah state that committed genocide. Doesn’t matter which is which, flip them back and forth as many times as you want.
Neither side ends up any better than “we won and survived, but we are a criminal state and people who should be loathed by humanity for generations.” That’s the best-case scenario.

[bernorange 8361]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

... You're fixated on stray statements from the most radical elements of that society and then imputing those sentiments to millions of people without any basis for doing so. ...

Have you by chance met BrisketTexan before or read any of his CR rants over the last few years?  He's been sharpening that axe for a good while now.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This is hyperbolic. You're fixated on stray statements from the most radical elements of that society and then imputing those sentiments to millions of people without any basis for doing so. Plenty of people have fled Palestine as refugees, integrated into the societies of the safe places they have made their new homes, and all but a handful of those refugees have done anything to "seek extinction" of Jews.

If those refugees could feel safe in their ancestral homelands, many would prefer to return. The only reason they cannot feel safe is because the nation state with all the power has grown more brutal and inhuman. Give peace a meaningful chance here.

I'll add to this. @Brisketexan your hyperbole has become toxic. You're an online caricature at this point.

There's dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding the issue of Palestine. And yet, when discussing Palestinians, you're convinced there is only one homogenous viewpoint.

[Huckleberry 32861]

8 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Nat Turner is not beloved in the South today, but I'm sure that feeling of animosity is dying as the generations pass. 

Right, that's the reference. It's pretty sick in my opinion to hate the members of that rebellion. They and their families were enslaved (obviously excepting the freedmen who participated), they were well within their moral rights to kill entire families of their oppressors. 

[G650 14256]

Brisket is a guy with a big heart, and big emotions, which is why we love him. But it tends to run away in emotional circumstances and it's a bummer

[Brisketexan 105139]

This is hyperbolic. You're fixated on stray statements from the most radical elements of that society

“The most radical elements of society” = “the foundational document of the political movement voted for and put into power by the people of Gaza.”
Quit characterizing genocidal anti-semitism as a “fringe belief.” It’s not. It’s deeply woven into the fabric of the region. We don’t WANT it to be. We want to believe that “if only the Palestinian people had been treated better, we wouldn’t be facing this.” Bullshit. Rampant Genocidal anti-semitism in the region predates Israel’s post-1967 actions. And it will continue, no matter what Israel ever does (aside from just going extinct).

[Skipper 6135]

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I'll add to this. @Brisketexan your hyperbole has become toxic. You're an online caricature at this point.

There's dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding the issue of Palestine. And yet, when discussing Palestinians, you're convinced there is only one homogenous viewpoint.

You think after this weekend there are still dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding Palestine?  Pretty sure Hamas decapitating babies and Palestine celebrating in the streets homogenized those viewpoints.

[Brisketexan 105139]

I'll add to this. [mention=593]Brisketexan[/mention] your hyperbole has become toxic. You're an online caricature at this point.
There's dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding the issue of Palestine. And yet, when discussing Palestinians, you're convinced there is only one homogenous viewpoint.

I’m aware that there are many different viewpoints within each society.
But the dominant viewpoint in Palestinian society (whether in raw numbers of adherents or in terms of the power wielded by those who hold that position) is, and has been, extermination of the Jews and elimination of Israel as a state.
We don’t want it to be that way. I don’t want it to be that way. I desperately want two peoples to find a way to coexist in peace. I’m just enough of a realist to have ditched all such hope.
These two peoples are going to kill each other until one of them is gone.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Just now, Skipper said:

You think after this weekend there are still dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding Palestine? 

Yes, of course.

[Ted Lange 16085]

 

Don't agree 100%, but there is some definite truth there.

[wildcat09 29354]

15 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I've been wondering how is the ADL-hating alt-right is responding to all of this. Has to be quite the conundrum.

Ben Shapiro and Andrew Tate are fighting on Twitter. It's mildly entertaining but not really worth linking to as neither of them deserves the attention. 

[G650 14256]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

I’m aware that there are many different viewpoints within each society.
But the dominant viewpoint in Palestinian society (whether in raw numbers of adherents or in terms of the power wielded by those who hold that position) is, and has been, extermination of the Jews and elimination of Israel as a state.
We don’t want it to be that way. I don’t want it to be that way. I desperately want two peoples to find a way to coexist in peace. I’m just enough of a realist to have ditched all such hope.
These two peoples are going to kill each other until one of them is gone.

You've basically taken the Al Jazeera version of interview the trailer park native after the tornado and extrapolated it to an entire populace. Because you feeel things.

[wildcat09 29354]

9 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Right, that's the reference. It's pretty sick in my opinion to hate the members of that rebellion. They and their families were enslaved (obviously excepting the freedmen who participated), they were well within their moral rights to kill entire families of their oppressors. 

I'll stop at saying it was morally good or acceptable for them to kill children, but in the spirit of the old Chris Rock skit about never hitting women, "I understand."

[wildcat09 29354]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

“The most radical elements of society” = “the foundational document of the political movement voted for and put into power by the people of Gaza.”
Quit characterizing genocidal anti-semitism as a “fringe belief.” It’s not. It’s deeply woven into the fabric of the region. We don’t WANT it to be. We want to believe that “if only the Palestinian people had been treated better, we wouldn’t be facing this.” Bullshit. Rampant Genocidal anti-semitism in the region predates Israel’s post-1967 actions. And it will continue, no matter what Israel ever does (aside from just going extinct).

The one election that Hamas won, they had a smaller share of the vote than Trump did here in 2016 or 2020. And that election was 17 years ago. Literally nearly half of the people of Gaza were not alive then. 

[Skipper 6135]

3 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Yes, of course.

Any minority differing viewpoints aside, Hamas just destroyed any hope at anything resembling a peaceful resolution for at least a generation. Which of course was the goal.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

random thought probably not worth mentioning: the fact this is all going down while the US basically doesn't have a functioning government is pretty fucking scary.

[hobbes2702 13033]

1 minute ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

random thought probably not worth mentioning: the fact this is all going down while the US basically doesn't have a functioning government is pretty fucking scary.

 

gotta own the libz

[David Dennison 18860]

1 minute ago, Skipper said:

Any minority differing viewpoints aside, Hamas just destroyed any hope at anything resembling a peaceful resolution for at least a generation. Which of course was the goal.

That hope was destroyed long before last weekend.

[smuggs 9353]

15 minutes ago, G650 said:

Brisket is a guy with a big heart, and big emotions, which is why we love him. But it tends to run away in emotional circumstances and it's a bummer

"Emotional Runaway Brisket" probably needs to be fleshed-out with some lyrics.

[Brisketexan 105139]

You've basically taken the Al Jazeera version of interview the trailer park native after the tornado and extrapolated it to an entire populace. Because you feeel things.

If you think that genocidal antisemitism was just coincidentally raised in a couple of interviews in the area…come the fuck on. Since the founding of the modern state in 1948, Israel has faced multiple wars seeking to wipe it off the map. Genocidal antisemitism is not a novel or rare belief in the region. You think it’s a fringe belief. It’s not. It’s mainstream. Again, I know we don’t WANT to believe that, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

[David Dennison 18860]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If you think that genocidal antisemitism was just coincidentally raised in a couple of interviews in the area…come the fuck on. Since the founding of the modern state in 1948, Israel has faced multiple wars seeking to wipe it off the map. Genocidal antisemitism is not a novel or rare belief in the region. You think it’s a fringe belief. It’s not. It’s mainstream. Again, I know we don’t WANT to believe that, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

What was the level of genocidal antisemitism in the region like prior to the founding of the modern state of Israel?

Edited October 11, 2023 by David Dennison

[Evil Bill Obrien 3284]

1 hour ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Also, aluminum hat conspiracy thought: what if the goal is to draw a bunch of Isreali forces into Gaza then set off a nuke in a tunnel under the city? Ultimate jihad which the rest of the Arabic world could leverage as Israel's military would be decimated. 

This whole act of aggression by Hamas does not seem super well thought through to an endgame that leads to a positive outcome for the Palestinians, but if this is their end game then it's really a truly insane plan. Can I introduce them to the Samson Option? Pretty sure if Hamas sets off a nuke under Gaza the Israeli nukes would fly and they would not give two shits of how many civilians they kill in Tehran, Damascus, Beirut, etc..

[Bullneck 19090]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Holy shit. It commemorates the conquest of Judea and features the depiction below as a detail from Titus' triumph.

I guess Italy using this monument is like the Germans lighting up a Nazi building with stars of David.

History has been so hard on those people.

 

Username checks out!

[Neonmoon 38129]

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

Agree. That is why everyone is against Hamas, but that doesn't mean we should be against the Palestinian people.  We should be for the Palestinian people just like we should be fore the Israeli people.  We should be against Hamas just like we should be against Bibi, the Likud party, and Israel's current government.  We should step in and root out right wing parties from both sides.

Hamas took power in 2004 and have not allowed elections since then.  

For people asking for solutions:

The US, regional partners, and the international community needs to step in and push aside Hamas - just like they should take a hard ethical stance and push aside Israel's current government.  

For both Palestine and Israel, the UN should impose restrictions on their democratic process - no right wing parties.  

The UN should impose a hard border and provide security for a generation or two.  

The UN should impose restrictions on Israeli land development, pull settlers out of disputed areas, and manage all disputed holy sites. 

The UN should build up the Palestinian economy and education system.

There is no solution if Hamas and the Likud party stay in power.

I agree. UN needs to be involved. 

But I think it's a little disingenuous to equate Hamas and the Likud party. I'm not absolving or excusing the settlements, but has the Likud party done anything remotely comparable to Hamas?

[chainsaw 9868]

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

“The most radical elements of society” = “the foundational document of the political movement voted for and put into power by the people of Gaza.”
Quit characterizing genocidal anti-semitism as a “fringe belief.” It’s not. It’s deeply woven into the fabric of the region. We don’t WANT it to be. We want to believe that “if only the Palestinian people had been treated better, we wouldn’t be facing this.” Bullshit. Rampant Genocidal anti-semitism in the region predates Israel’s post-1967 actions. And it will continue, no matter what Israel ever does (aside from just going extinct).

What foundational document? The charter from the 1988 that was replaced in 2017? If we're going to be using a "foundational document" to impute sentiments to the whole of a society governed by those documents, that seems to walk us into uncomfortable discussions including a discussion about whether some people are only 3/5ths as valuable as others.

If these people were as genocidal as you claim, why are so few of the displaced refugees around the world engaged in anything more than making an honest living? Can you answer that?

[Dbeasy 15051]

2 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

I literally discuss the difficulties in basically every post I made but sure thing guy.

Very convenient answer. You addressed the word "difficulties" but completely ignored for at least the 3rd time requests to share what "actions" you think appropriate as an alternative to the views you criticize. It's becoming obvious that your schtick is to criticize but offer no alternative. Cool. Good to know.

[Huckleberry 32861]

26 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'll stop at saying it was morally good or acceptable for them to kill children, but in the spirit of the old Chris Rock skit about never hitting women, "I understand."

I'll blow right through that stop sign. Just as the death of a civilian human shield is on the combatant who used them as a shield, the deaths of the enslavers' children are on the enslavers. I'd prefer if they didn't, but I don't find it morally wrong in any way that they did. Hell, an objective analysis would find that those children would have been almost certain to use the legal system at the time to subjugate the slaves' children so even with the benefit of a cool head it's hard to say it's wrong.

[hobbes2702 13033]

7 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Very convenient answer. You addressed the word "difficulties" but completely ignored for at least the 3rd time requests to share what "actions" you think appropriate as an alternative to the views you criticize. It's becoming obvious that your schtick is to criticize but offer no alternative. Cool. Good to know.

My schtick? I’ve been posting on some version of this site for like 20 years so it seems like someone would have picked up on that by now.

I’m not a fucking military strategist. Here is literally my only opinion of what should or should not happen: Don’t kill civilians and don’t advocate for it. That’s it. That’s the whole thing. Is that easy? Prolly not, but that’s the job. Which part do you disagree with?

Edited October 11, 2023 by hobbes2702

['stache 21815]

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We absolutely should not ignore those circumstances. Like I said, the ultimate outcome here will be that one group ceases to exist, and the other is an abhorrent pariah state that committed genocide. Doesn’t matter which is which, flip them back and forth as many times as you want.
Neither side ends up any better than “we won and survived, but we are a criminal state and people who should be loathed by humanity for generations.” That’s the best-case scenario.

Hamas will be put down, it's inevitable. What then? To me any solution must include the international community condemning Israel for abusing its power in the region and requiring humane treatment of Palestinians as a whole (treating terrorists separately). That part won't happen and why the conflict will never end. You say "we absolutely should not ignore those circumstances" but the west is doing exactly that, supporting Israel without question and never recognizing the plight of the Palestinians. Again, all part of Israel's decades long strategy to suppress any criticism of its governance by fomenting resentment, expecting terrorism, then saying they have to continue their conduct for their own protection. I'll never agree with that state of affairs. 

[jimmyjazz 45952]

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’m just enough of a realist

lulz

[chainsaw 9868]

3 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I'll blow right through that stop sign. Just as the death of a civilian human shield is on the combatant who used them as a shield, the deaths of the enslavers' children are on the enslavers. I'd prefer if they didn't, but I don't find it morally wrong in any way that they did. Hell, an objective analysis would find that those children would have been almost certain to use the legal system at the time to subjugate the slaves' children so even with the benefit of a cool head it's hard to say it's wrong.

I see the logic here. I don't agree with it, because I'm a firm believer that people can be reformed and even the worst criminals are entitled to an opportunity to pursue the path of reformation. Contrary to what assclowns like Elon Musk believe, demographics are not destiny. A boy who was radicalized in his teens can be deradicalized in his 20s and 30s. If I believe the people of Palestine can learn to tolerate Jews then I must also believe that an Israeli child who today would be raised to believe Arabs are subhuman can also grow up to be tolerant and even loving towards Arabs. Those who would bomb a Palestinian apartment complex full of children or who would murder an Israeli child are robbing those children of their opportunities to make their own choices, including choices that set them down the path of peace and love.

[Js1 85336]

19 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

But I think it's a little disingenuous to equate Hamas and the Likud party. I'm not absolving or excusing the settlements, but has the Likud party done anything remotely comparable to Hamas?

Propping up Hamas bc the tension is good for business and political power for Likud is pretty bad. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

[Dbeasy 15051]

13 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Hamas will be put down, it's inevitable. What then? To me any solution must include the international community condemning Israel for abusing its power in the region and requiring humane treatment of Palestinians as a whole (treating terrorists separately). That part won't happen and why the conflict will never end. You say "we absolutely should not ignore those circumstances" but the west is doing exactly that, supporting Israel without question and never recognizing the plight of the Palestinians. Again, all part of Israel's decades long strategy to suppress any criticism of its governance by fomenting resentment, expecting terrorism, then saying they have to continue their conduct for their own protection. I'll never agree with that state of affairs. 

Extremely good post. International pressure is the only way to strong-arm Isreal in concert with getting Hamas out of the way and giving the Palestinian population a voice.

[G650 14256]

50 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The one election that Hamas won, they had a smaller share of the vote than Trump did here in 2016 or 2020. And that election was 17 years ago. Literally nearly half of the people of Gaza were not alive then. 

Forget it, he's rolling

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If you think that genocidal antisemitism was just coincidentally raised in a couple of interviews in the area…come the fuck on. Since the founding of the modern state in 1948, Israel has faced multiple wars seeking to wipe it off the map. Genocidal antisemitism is not a novel or rare belief in the region. You think it’s a fringe belief. It’s not. It’s mainstream. Again, I know we don’t WANT to believe that, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

 

[Skipper 6135]

23 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

This whole act of aggression by Hamas does not seem super well thought through to an endgame that leads to a positive outcome for the Palestinians, but if this is their end game then it's really a truly insane plan. 

They don't give a shit about the Palestinians.  The endgame for the sub-human jihadis that did the actual butchering is a short remaining lifespan convinced they will shortly get all their virgins or whatever fairy tale they believe.  The end game for those that actually financed this and set it in motion is, at a minimum, ensuring Israel stops normalizing relations with any other middle eastern countries.  They knew exactly what would happen when you set a bunch of barbarians loose and what Israels natural response would be.  Whether a potential larger conflict that could benefit other Western hating nations (i.e., russia) was a stated goal or just an ancillary benefit isn't clear.  But this had nothing to do whatsoever with furthering the Palestinian cause.  So can't really fathom why any Palestinian in Gaza or elsewhere is celebrating this. 

[SydneyCarton 48106]

18 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I see the logic here. I don't agree with it, because I'm a firm believer that people can be reformed and even the worst criminals are entitled to an opportunity to pursue the path of reformation. Contrary to what assclowns like Elon Musk believe, demographics are not destiny. A boy who was radicalized in his teens can be deradicalized in his 20s and 30s. If I believe the people of Palestine can learn to tolerate Jews then I must also believe that an Israeli child who today would be raised to believe Arabs are subhuman can also grow up to be tolerant and even loving towards Arabs. Those who would bomb a Palestinian apartment complex full of children or who would murder an Israeli child are robbing those children of their opportunities to make their own choices, including choices that set them down the path of peace and love.

In reagards to your post, yes, it's possible to de-radicalize people. But realistically speaking, it's statistically not very succesful. There are hundreds of organizations at least in the united states alone focused on de-radicalizing extremists and former cult members, and it's a process that usally takes years of therapy and re-education, and has a pretty small sucess rate. I don't have numbers on this, I'm just going off of my opinion based on the articles I've read over the years, so someone else has numbers and statistics and more experience on the subject of de-radizalizationa and re-education, I hope they step in and add some color. 

But to continue my point, reform feels like a pretty low percentage sucess rate. And it feels damn near impossible to ask that kind of reformation in Gaza, or even in Israel now after this attack. Or the middle east in general, a place renown for the concept of therapists, and equal rights, and mental health, and anything other than different versions of crushing autocracy, with propoganda bleeding out in every facet of their society. So yeah, what your proposing is techincally possible, but it's pretty motherfucking unlikely. Unlikely to the point of me wanting to dismiss it entirely. Realistically, what opportunity of a path of peace and love do those people have when they're being bombarded by either propoganda, the visage of death all around them that they blame on the Jews, and Hamas in power? It's so easy to say, but it's so fucking unrealistic in reality. Tell me what chance a woman in Iran has of gender equality just because she wants it? Tell me what chance a North Korean has of living in Democracy becasue they want it? They don't even know what democracy is! You talk about choices that these folks could have to live better being robbed by dying at the hands of an israeli strike, but realistically you have to admit that these people don't really HAVE an opportunity to choose any path other than the one chosen for them by Hamas. It's a hard reality, but it's a reality nonetheless.

Honestly, I didn't even quote you intending to write a small novella, but it all just came out. What I really intended to post at the end of this thread is that this is one of the worst, most discombobulated thread I can remember on Shaggy or Surly. Usually it's pretty easy to get a feel of a thread, and the opinions of posters and what they'll be. But everyone is all over the place on this one, and the truly heartbreaking thing is that, more than any thread I can remember, I basically agree with pieces of what every single person is saying here. From Brisket to Hobbes and Chainsaw, and most all in between. It all feels true. Is it wrong to commit genocide in response? Absolutely. Can Israel sit and do nothing? Fuck no. Do we have the right to tell them how to respond? No, I don't think we do considering our own actions. Is there any solution here other than more death? Man I don't see it. Does Russia benefit and Ukraine suffer here? Absolutely. 

Are human beings fucking horrible and do I weep for the near future that my son will inherit? Yes. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[G650 14256]

16 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

lulz

That has to the all time post on Surly

[Huckleberry 32861]

11 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I see the logic here. I don't agree with it, because I'm a firm believer that people can be reformed and even the worst criminals are entitled to an opportunity to pursue the path of reformation. Contrary to what assclowns like Elon Musk believe, demographics are not destiny. A boy who was radicalized in his teens can be deradicalized in his 20s and 30s. If I believe the people of Palestine can learn to tolerate Jews then I must also believe that an Israeli child who today would be raised to believe Arabs are subhuman can also grow up to be tolerant and even loving towards Arabs. Those who would bomb a Palestinian apartment complex full of children or who would murder an Israeli child are robbing those children of their opportunities to make their own choices, including choices that set them down the path of peace and love.

Yes, that's the part where I'd prefer that the children not be killed. I simply won't judge an oppressed (enslaved in this example) person for exacting their vengeance against the oppressors' family. 

Certainly that usually serves to extend the horrific cycle but I consider myself a pretty rational person and if my family were slaves and I had a chance to eliminate our captors I can't say for sure I'd stop with the men. Given the absurdly lucky circumstances I was born into I can't begin to put myself in their shoes, so I won't judge them. 

[C-Man 27227]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I've been wondering how is the ADL-hating alt-right is responding to all of this. Has to be quite the conundrum.

Probably going something like this:

[Doc Sam Beckett 5793]

39 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What was the level of genocidal antisemitism in the region like prior to the founding of the modern state of Israel?

I'm an expert in college football, Eastern Europe, and viruses/vaccines. This is asking too much 

[Brisketexan 105139]

I see the logic here. I don't agree with it, because I'm a firm believer that people can be reformed and even the worst criminals are entitled to an opportunity to pursue the path of reformation. Contrary to what assclowns like Elon Musk believe, demographics are not destiny. A boy who was radicalized in his teens can be deradicalized in his 20s and 30s. If I believe the people of Palestine can learn to tolerate Jews then I must also believe that an Israeli child who today would be raised to believe Arabs are subhuman can also grow up to be tolerant and even loving towards Arabs. Those who would bomb a Palestinian apartment complex full of children or who would murder an Israeli child are robbing those children of their opportunities to make their own choices, including choices that set them down the path of peace and love.

You believe that evil can be redeemed.
I do not.
One of us is right, one of us is wrong.
I’ve seen enough history to believe that evil doesn’t go away. Shit, in our own country, we’ve never even genuinely sought contrition or peace after the sin of slavery. We won’t, we can’t, because humans are shit.

Propping up Hamas bc the tension is good for business and political power for Likud is pretty bad. 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Likud is shit. To continue with the theme and observation above. Likud and Bibi are flat-out evil; they would sacrifice generations for political power. And it worked. A new generation of leadership will end up doing the same. Because humans are shit.

[tokamak 6430]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Perhaps you'll be surprised by my response: every bit of what you shared is horrific, and I have long thought that the Israeli state has been and continues to commit crimes against humanity.  Israel has the uncleanest of hands.

But in the end, we get to this end-game.....how do you negotiate?  Here are the parties positions:

Party A: "my position is that you should be wiped off the face of the earth.  Every man, woman, and child of your people should be slaughtered, wherever they may be found, behind every rock, every tree, until none of you are left on this earth."

Party B: "Hmmmm....I don't think I can give on that.  And to be honest, it's a bit of a touchy subject, being that assholes have been trying to exterminate my people for 2,000+ years, and made a pretty good run at it last century.  How about I give you more freedom and autonomy, but you pinkie swear NOT to work to exterminate all my people?"

Party A:  "Did I fucking stutter?  Die.  All of you."

As I said, I don't absolve Israel of its many crimes.  But there is an element of degree, and a dividing line - those things are undeniable. 

One party will take action that will result in harm and death to civilians (including children) if it is necessary to attack an enemy that has sworn to exterminate that party.  It may be more casual and careless about that than anyone can support, but its mission is NOT "exterminate civilians and children."  

The other party will kill civilians and children whenever and wherever it can, until the end of time.  It is the foundation of its very mission: "exterminate the jews wherever they may be found."

Neither path is anything I like.  But the second one is incompatible with two groups of humans living on earth.  The Hamas position is unambiguous, and these are the options: genocide of the jews, or death of the Palestinians as they try to kill all the jews.

If you are a jew, which of those options do you pick?  We are facing a situation where the outcome is going to be horrific, but unavoidable: one group will be eliminated from the earth, and the other will be committing genocide.  Pick which group you want to fill which role.  Both sides lose.  Humanity loses.

The ONLY thing that can change that calculus is for the side seeking genocide to.....stop seeking genocide.  Take genocide off the table, and a world of options opens up.  At this point, it doesn't matter who started what.  It doesn't matter who did the latest bad thing, or more of a bad thing.  In a two-side dynamic where one side's position is "genocide," there is no negotiation or compromise to be had.

The Palestinian people can make a plain statement that jews have a right to exist on this planet, and they reject any leadership that preaches otherwise, and at that point, they have my full support in whatever negotiation they choose to undertake.  Indeed, I would suggest that they have and have reclaimed the moral high ground, and should have great leverage - I would certainly be arguing in their favor at most every turn.  On the contrary, so long as extermination of all jewish life on earth is the cornerstone of the Palestinian negotiating position, nothing can be done, nothing can be improved, and Israel would be stupid to try.

 

There's only 4 possible outcomes to the entire issue:

1. Two states
2. Annexation
3. Status quo, indefinitely
4. Ethnic cleansing

Israel will never let #2 happen, for a bunch of obvious reasons that have already been discussed in this thread. Not worth talking about.

Only the most unhinged right-wing voices in Israel and the US even bring up #4. Also not a whole lot to say there.

Israel clearly prefers #3 to #1. I think that's for two main reasons: 1) in order for two states to happen, they'd have to either forcibly remove their own citizens from big chunks of the West Bank (politically disastrous), or they'd have to make painful land concessions to the Palestinians (...politically disastrous), and 2) they believe it enhances their security situation.

The first reason is a problem entirely of their own creation. I don't have a lot of sympathy. The international community, including their own closest allies, has warned them again and again and again that West Bank settlements are a horrible idea, and they just don't give a fuck. The fact that they would have to eat that shit sandwich should not be a valid excuse.

Their second reason for preferring the status quo (enhanced security) is a valid reason, but it's also a miscalculation. The status quo costs them their relationship with the Arab world, it harms their standing around the world to varying degrees, and it radicalizes the Palestinian population. It's also contrary to Israel's foundation as a democratic country, for good measure.

You say that the Palestinians want the extermination of Israel/the Jews. Hamas clearly wants that. I can buy that the average Palestinian man on the street might say that if a reporter sticks a microphone in his face. But IMO most people, if left alone, just want to kinda...live their lives. Still to this day, a disturbingly large percentage of Americans subscribe to the preposterous belief that the 2020 election was stolen. But how many actually attacked the capitol? A few hundred? The rest are just...at work. Living their lives, posting garbage on Facebook.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, full stop. It should absolutely be dealt with as such. But so was Al Qaeda, and we never intended to take control of Afghanistan forever. So was ISIS, and we never tried to take control of Syria. Israel has the ability (and the right) to secure its border with a hypothetical Palestinian state. We're not talking about the US-Canada border, here. If Hamas acts up, bitch slap them. Hell, invade and take them out, just like we did with Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. We'd cover for them at the Security Council, no sweat.

[Brisketexan 105139]

That has to the all time post on Surly

Yeah…the guy who looks at a region with a lengthy history of bloodshed, and says “I see continued bloodshed, and lots of it,” is the one….NOT being realistic?
Reality isn’t what we want it to be. It’s what is. And what “is” in the levant is a horror show that will not end.

[Brisketexan 105139]

I thought from what you've posted in the past you believe in a story about an evil man named Saul who changed his name to Paul post-redemption.

Anecdotes are not competent evidence. Any individual man can change. But the odds are - and history backs it up - that the vast majority will not.
That’s what I mean by being realistic. A plan that relies on “and the majority of the Palestinians will end up changing their minds and decide that maybe Jews don’t need to be exterminated” is not a good or realistic plan.