Israel

[jimmyjazz 45909]

18 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I don't know why Bernie's comments would be considered antisemitic.  Anti-Israel, sure.

I mean . . . the guy is Jewish.  What are the odds he's antisemitic?  

The mind boggles.

[Brisketexan 105108]

6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

But please don't impute those sentiments to ordinary Palestinians.

Yet the strong majority of Palestinians in Gaza in any recent polling SUPPORT Hamas.  I'm sorry, you disclaim over and over and over every example of Palestinians finding joy in jewish genocide and supporting a movement that pledges jewish genocide, without any basis to do so.

Hatred of jews is a dominant belief among Palestinians.  Shit, the ADL polled on it and their numbers were in the high 90s, I think (yeah, I know, the ADL....vast jewish conspiracy and all that).  Why is it so impossible for you to believe that a majority of Palestinians support the murder of jews?  It's not a shocking revelation.

[chainsaw 9866]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I mean . . . the guy is Jewish.  What are the odds he's antisemitic?  

The mind boggles.

Don't you get it? He's like the Uncle Ruckus of Jews

[BrickHorn 18221]

21 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Now, if Ilhan Omar makes the same statement (which I suspect she already has) I imagine she'd be called antisemitic, but that often happens when you're not a member of the the group you're criticizing

See, this is exactly the bullshit I was talking about above. I don’t think you meant to do it, but you (probably subconsciously) muddled the Israeli state / military (which was the subject of Bernie’s criticism) with Jewish people generally. Bernie is Jewish but not a member of the Israeli state. 

[chainsaw 9866]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet the strong majority of Palestinians in Gaza in any recent polling SUPPORT Hamas.  I'm sorry, you disclaim over and over and over every example of Palestinians finding joy in jewish genocide and supporting a movement that pledges jewish genocide, without any basis to do so.

Hatred of jews is a dominant belief among Palestinians.  Shit, the ADL polled on it and their numbers were in the high 90s, I think (yeah, I know, the ADL....vast jewish conspiracy and all that).  Why is it so impossible for you to believe that a majority of Palestinians support the murder of jews?  It's not a shocking revelation.

What particular polls are you referring to? Did those polls clarify whether the respondents also support terror? Did those polls bother to ask whether their opinions would change if Israel were to withdraw from the occupation and cease the mistreatment?

Again, where is the evidence of imminent genocidal intent among the refugee population? Its important not to conflate Hamas and Palestinian civilians here. The refugee population is overwhelmingly peaceful. Tell me you aren't disputing that.

[SydneyCarton 48082]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

The best evidence we have of how Palestinians behave without a boot on their throats is the lack of genocidal conduct observed in refugee populations worldwide. Jews are not being killed outside of Israel by Palestinian refugees. If their hatred were something that will last until the heat death of the universe, I would expect their behavior to conform with that prophecy about how irredeemably hate-filled the Palestinians are (or have been made to become). It's supposed to be an irreversible hatred bordering on ontological evil, right?

 

I'm not sure that the "best evidence" we have of how Palestinians behave without a boot on their throat is just the refugees. There were also two wars started by the Palestinians against Israel, where they attacked first, and subsequently as a result lost the land about which they're now fighting over. Wars they started. Without Israel's boot on their throat. And yes, perhaps the refugees have been LAW ABIDING in other countires. And I'm certain a huge percentage of refugees are in fact refugees because they wanted a better life, without hate and shitty living conditions. But you can't paint them all that way. And it's equally ridiculous to simply wave away the idea that the people who are protesting all over the world aren't "ACTUAL" Palestinians without proof, either. You know, other than their word. And lets not forget that the ones who remain in Gaza and the West Bank are likely even more inundated with hate and propoganda, and are more likely to have an order of magnitude higher percentage that can't stand the Jews.

 

Quote

I think you're misunderstanding here. I'm not the person who has to prove Palestinians lack a bloodlust. I'm rebutting the notion that Palestinians are somehow uniquely incapable of behaving in modern society due to their fervent hatred of Jews. I'm making that rebuttal by noting a lack of evidence consistent with that notion, which you can observe anywhere that Palestinian refugees have built lives away from the homes they had to flee due to Israeli aggression. If I'm wrong, and if Palestinians were truly these barbaric monolithic horde of Jew killers, surely you could find evidence to support that claim.

Is she a Palestinian refugee? Has she actually killed anyone? If you want to find distasteful, ignorant rhetoric, you will never be disappointed as long as you are on the internet. But please don't impute those sentiments to ordinary Palestinians.

You think you're the guy who doesn't have to prove their lack of bloodlust, but you're certainly the guy taking the stance with certainty that a vast majority of them don't HAVE any bloodlust. And when you see evidecne of bloodlust, you're intimating they're not REALLY Palestinians. Which you literally just did, and have done a couple times now. It's fucking absurd. Ive said that I certainly don't in any way believe Palestinian people are a monoloth full of hatred and bloodlust inherently. What I am on the record of saying is that propoganda is a motherfucker and I fully believe this endless cylce of violence between these people makes it LIKELY that there a massive percentage of people that ARE violent towoards Jews, are fine with exterminating them, and have been conditioned to believe that, most of them in an environment outside of their control. Most of them it's not their fault. But pretending it doesn't exist and that 99.9% of palestinians are just good people who want to be free and suffer in silence of the yolk of Hammas and radical Islam is fucking absurd, because like North Koreans, a huge huge chunk of them literally have never known any other path or belief, and they've been suffering. 

I'm not going to dig up evidence, but there has been violence against the Jews all over the fucking world for decades, and it's only rising. Are they all Palestians, no. Have many been? Yes. Have some been refugees? Yes. You can't use the fact that there hasn't been a mass muder incident elsewhere in the world as proof that all Palestinians ouside of Gaza and the West Bank have nothing but love in their hearts, either. 

After googling, Mia Khalifa is Labenese, and she relocated to America with her family when she was 8 years old. I guess you're right, I'm sure all the Palestinians that left the middle east are fine, to a man. Its those damn Lebanese that are stirring up shit! Hezbollah and Hamas are nothing alike, either!

I think we've exhausted this thread. I apprecaite the back and forth of ideas, but we should probably just let this lie and agree to disagree. I'm sure half the other people on this thread want to strangle us. 

[wildcat09 29352]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I mean . . . the guy is Jewish.  What are the odds he's antisemitic?  

The mind boggles.

Jewish anti-Semites do unfortunately exist. Just look at Ben Shapiro. 

[Foosters 17855]

35 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Again, context matters.  Only the Jews are routinely accused of making up the fact of their own genocide to advance their own interests.

I almost hesitate to post this, dare I be accused of anti-Semitism, but you're following the plight of Ukraine, no? Seems about 1/3 of the United States believe they are making up their own genocide to advance their own interest. 

[SydneyCarton 48082]

 

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

What particular polls are you referring to? Did those polls clarify whether the respondents also support terror? Did those polls bother to ask whether their opinions would change if Israel were to withdraw from the occupation and cease the mistreatment?

Again, where is the evidence of imminent genocidal intent among the refugee population? Its important not to conflate Hamas and Palestinian civilians here. The refugee population is overwhelmingly peaceful. Tell me you aren't disputing that.

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/

Quote

A noteworthy survey from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) unveiled that 58% in Gaza and 42% in the West Bank favor Hamas. Intriguingly, younger Palestinians and Gaza residents displayed stronger support, especially those viewing Hamas as Palestine’s ideal representative and resistor against Israel.

and the google AI to be taken with a nassive grain of salt:

Quote

Generative AI is experimental. Info quality may vary.

 

 

 

 

According to a survey by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR), 58% of Palestinians in Gaza and 42% in the West Bank favor Hamas. Another poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people”. 

 

Hamas is one of the two main Palestinian political parties. It governs more than two million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. The group is best known for its armed resistance to Israel. 

 

Other polls have found that: 

 

• 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas
• 52% of Palestinians in the West Bank express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas
• 64% of Palestinians in East Jerusalem express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas
• Nearly a quarter of Palestinians said movements like Hamas were “the most positive thing that has happened to the Palestinian people since 1948”

These are not small numbers. These are large numbers. Even if you track in a huge margin of error. And lets not forget, the founding principle of Hamas is the extermination of every Jew everywhere in the world. So...I'm going to count that even having a "somewhat positive" outlook of a group like that is a lot of motherfuckers that are "somewhat positive" with genocide and mass extermination. That doesn't make me feel great. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[DDD Dad 14336]

6 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

See, this is exactly the bullshit I was talking about above. I don’t think you meant to do it, but you (probably subconsciously) muddled the Israeli state / military (which was the subject of Bernie’s criticism) with Jewish people generally. Bernie is Jewish but not a member of the Israeli state. 

Yes, I was sloppy with my terminology in an effort to avoid referring only to the specific example.  

[DDD Dad 14336]

7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

What particular polls are you referring to? Did those polls clarify whether the respondents also support terror? Did those polls bother to ask whether their opinions would change if Israel were to withdraw from the occupation and cease the mistreatment?

Again, where is the evidence of imminent genocidal intent among the refugee population? Its important not to conflate Hamas and Palestinian civilians here. The refugee population is overwhelmingly peaceful. Tell me you aren't disputing that.

OK now do ordinary German citizens in, say, 1942.

[chainsaw 9866]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

 

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/

and the google AI to be taken with a nassive grain of salt:

These are not small numbers. These are large numbers. Even if you track in a huge margin of error. 

Thanks. Are these the only polls?

[jimmyjazz 45909]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Jewish anti-Semites do unfortunately exist. Just look at Ben Shapiro. 

Shapiro literally treads both sides of that line.  He's not as clever as he thinks he his, but fortunately for him his audience is in general pretty clueless, and they buy what they want to buy and ignore the rest.

[chainsaw 9866]

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

OK now do ordinary German citizens in, say, 1942.

Not sure what you're asking for. I don't think war crimes are justified against them, either.

[Brisketexan 105108]

5 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

OK now do ordinary German citizens in, say, 1942.

I'll take "people who had what was coming to them because they either supported that shit or were complicit in it" for $500, Alex.  EDIT: justifying war crimes against them?  No.  Justifying total warfare to conquer the entire country that was necessarily going to involve massive destruction to civilian areas and civilian casualties? Yep.

And then I'll take "people who largely (but not completely... AfD says "hi") shook that belief and complicity only after being completely conquered and occupied, with their society and institutions rebuilt from the ground up" for $1000.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Brisketexan

[SydneyCarton 48082]

11 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Thanks. Are these the only polls?

These are the most recent I could find. How much of my time do I need to expend, and how many polls do you need to see, to go along with now 3 unprompted wars over 50ish years all started by Palestinians (2 of which they "didn't have a boot on their throat) plus, what, 3 rejections of offers or a state of their own...how much more do you need provided to you to simply accept that MAYBE, MAYBE refugees in other countries isn't the only metric to consider that...JUST POSSIBLY, there is a large percentive of Palestinians (not all, but a large percent) that might have hate in their hearts? Well behaved refugees in other countries is not a fair, much less the only, metric by which to judge an entire group of people. 

Because that's all I'm saying. Not all Palestinians are Evil. I won't even say most. But maybe, a very very large percentage who happen to be in charge believe in something very evil, and they're influencing another very large chunk. Because that's all I'm trying to say, and you seem to think I'm proposing something outlandish, despite all of the things I've cited in my first paragraph of this post. 

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Not sure what you're asking for. I don't think war crimes are justified against them, either.

I believe he was suggesting that a polling of German citizens in 1942 wouldn't have revealed any genicideal intent, and what would have seemingly showed a vast amount of generally peaceful people. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[TexArcher 37774]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Sorry to interrupt y’all’s black (and white) panther party, but is anyone else out off by several posters throwing around the “antisemitism” in the other thread? It seems to be used when someone questions a source or is concerned with innocent children who have absolutely no say it what is happening. Everything on Twitter/social media should be questioned and vetted. That isn’t antisemitism. Nor is expressing heartbreak for any child being slaughtered.

Yep.  I got hit with it for suggesting that all I see over there is two sets of bad guys (the leaders, not the common folks).

To a lot of people, it's as simple as "Israel good, Palestine bad" or "Palestine victims, Israel oppressors."

As is almost always the case, it's not actually that simple.  

And, one can have sympathy for all of the innocents being slaughtered on both sides, and be furious with the leadership of both sides, without being anti-Semite or anti-Muslim.  I find it deeply disturbing that anyone condones any of this, for any reason.  How anyone manages to take sides from 10,000 miles away, with an understanding of only a fraction of it, at best, is beyond me.  They're both fucking wrong.

Edited October 11, 2023 by TexArcher

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Yep.  I got hit with it for suggesting that all I see over there is two sets of bad guys (the leaders, not the common folks).
To a lot of people, it's as simple as "Israel good, Palestine bad" or "Palestine victims, Israel oppressors."
As is almost always the case, it's not actually that simple.  
And, one can have sympathy for all of the innocents being slaughtered on both sides without being anti-Semite or anti-Muslim.  I find it deeply disturbing that anyone condones any of this, for any reason.  How anyone manages to take sides from 10,000 miles away, with an understanding of only a fraction of it, at best, is beyond me.  They're both fucking wrong.

Yep.

It’s basically if you don’t support razing Gaza, you are an antisemite. And not only that, we can’t discuss it. But you can call someone that in the news thread.

[SydneyCarton 48082]

Just now, Patricio Swayze said:

Yep.

It’s basically if you don’t supporting razing Gaza, you are an antisemite. And not only that, we can’t discuss it. But you can call someone that in the news thread.

I mean, dude, you're on the Daily Texan board. You fucking know how it goes. I can't remember if it was that thread or this one, but on one I said Bibi was a fucking piece of shit who needs to go to jail. That wasn't met with any resistience...so I guess it was posted on this thread...

[jimmyjazz 45909]

2 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

It’s basically if you don’t support razing Gaza, you are an antisemite. And not only that, we can’t discuss it. But you can call someone that in the news thread.

The double standard is real.

Or, "that's not political, it's just an insult".

[TexArcher 37774]

Just now, Patricio Swayze said:

Yep.

It’s basically if you don’t supporting razing Gaza, you are an antisemite. And not only that, we can’t discuss it. But you can call someone that in the news thread.

Right.  It's the reductionist logic of fools.  If you have a problem with Israel, you must hate the Jews.  Like, if I think my black colleague is wrong about something, I must be a racist.  What else could it possibly be?

['stache 21807]

21 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

 

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/

and the google AI to be taken with a nassive grain of salt:

These are not small numbers. These are large numbers. Even if you track in a huge margin of error. And lets not forget, the founding principle of Hamas is the extermination of every Jew everywhere in the world. So...I'm going to count that even having a "somewhat positive" outlook of a group like that is a lot of motherfuckers that are "somewhat positive" with genocide and mass extermination. That doesn't make me feel great. 

Even if every single living Palestinian believed in genocide, they could never accomplish it, and don't even have the ability to try, so in my view, it's a distraction to avoid ever having to criticize Israel. I'll probably stop repeating myself for now but one last time: Unless and until international powers acknowledge that Israel's actions are unjust and problematic nothing can ever change. 

[BrickHorn 18221]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Again, context matters.  Only the Jews are routinely accused of making up the fact of their own genocide to advance their own interests.

Dude, you are much too knowledgeable of history and world affairs to forget the Ukrainians and Armenians.

And really, is there any such thing as a genocide that isn’t denied by some group (typically the perpetrators and their successor states)?

[chainsaw 9866]

13 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

These are the most recent I could find. How much of my time do I need to expend, and how many polls do you need to see, to go along with now 3 unprompted wars over 50ish years all started by Palestinians (2 of which they "didn't have a boot on their throat) plus, what, 3 rejections of offers or a state of their own...how much more do you need provided to you to simply accept that MAYBE, MAYBE refugees in other countries isn't the only metric to consider that...JUST POSSIBLY, there is a large percentive of Palestinians (not all, but a large percent) that might have hate in their hearts? Well behaved refugees in other countries is not a fair, much less the only, metric by which to judge an entire group of people. 

Because that's all I'm saying. Not all Palestinians are Evil. I won't even say most. But maybe, a very very large percentage who happen to be in charge believe in something very evil, and they're influencing another very large chunk. Because that's all I'm trying to say, and you seem to think I'm proposing something outlandish, despite all of the things I've cited in my first paragraph of this post. 

I believe he was suggesting that a polling of German citizens in 1942 wouldn't have revealed any genicideal intent, and what would have seemingly showed a vast amount of generally peaceful people. 

I was asking only because I don't see a point in delving into these polls until we've confirmed that there's no other poll out there being relied on in support of the points being made.

I read the AP article which noted that historically the support surges and wanes depending on whether there's war going on. Basically, a "rally around the flag" effect for the occupied territories. I'd like to see some polls about whether these people are as invested in genocide as so many here seem to believe.

Quote

I believe he was suggesting that a polling of German citizens in 1942 wouldn't have revealed any genicideal intent, and what would have seemingly showed a vast amount of generally peaceful people.

So then polls are useless for predicting future genocides? On that, we can mostly agree. I'm not a believer in pre-emptive strikes that are rooted only in fear and speculation. By 1942, Germany had already been engaged in imperial conquest, so I was a bit confused by the question. There already existed plenty reason to fight Germany. I would not have supported committing war crimes in Germany such as a systematic starvation of their children.

The best evidence we have is not surveys or polls. It is actual behavior. Palestinian refugees do not commit genocide, which to me is strong evidence that if they are left alone (as they had been before 1948) they will leave everyone else alone. I'm not saying Israel should cease to be vigilant, but I am saying occupation and oppression isn't the answer and is likely counterproductive, if peace truly is their goal.

[Bozo_Casanova 26450]

Here is the best and most thoughtful no-sides/both-sides piece I’ve read yet, from Isaac Saul.
Sharing here because not only is it pretty representative of where progressive-left jews are, but I think it really captures the essentials of what it feels like in this moment to unequivocally stand with Israel and against Hamas, and also not completely let go of empathy towards Palestinian people and why they feel the way they do. 

Read the whole thing, but a couple of key passages:

Quote

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it. 
——————

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do). 

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

 

[SydneyCarton 48082]

Just now, 'stache said:

Even if every single living Palestinian believed in genocide, they could never accomplish it, and don't even have the ability to try, so in my view, it's a distraction to avoid ever having to criticize Israel. I'll probably stop repeating myself for now but one last time: Unless and until international powers acknowledge that Israel's actions are unjust and problematic nothing can ever change. 

I'm not sure why you're quoting me. I don't necesarily disagree with you, although as I've pointed out, Palestinians or their ruling parties have waged multiple wars against Israel, all where they fired the first shot, and not all of them were when the conditions in Gaza were so draconian. 

I am...plenty happy to criticize Israel. I'm simply attempting to demonstrate that just maybe, a vast chunk of Palestinians aren't dying to acheive the peace you're saying the international powers need to insist Israel work towards. Because a fucking vast chunk, most might say a majority, don't want that peace at all. Or any peace. They want to kill Jews. Which is the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying Palestinians can succesfully commit full genocide. They can't, becuase if they came to it Israel could wipe them off the face of the map to a man, they could level all of Gaza. And yeah, Israel's actions have been unjust. I don't like it. I also don't like every time they've not had draconian restrictions, they've also gotten fucking murdered too. 

['stache 21807]

46 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet the strong majority of Palestinians in Gaza in any recent polling SUPPORT Hamas.  I'm sorry, you disclaim over and over and over every example of Palestinians finding joy in jewish genocide and supporting a movement that pledges jewish genocide, without any basis to do so.

Hatred of jews is a dominant belief among Palestinians.  Shit, the ADL polled on it and their numbers were in the high 90s, I think (yeah, I know, the ADL....vast jewish conspiracy and all that).  Why is it so impossible for you to believe that a majority of Palestinians support the murder of jews?  It's not a shocking revelation.

Can you say with 100% certainty that if you had been born in Gaza and raised under the thumb of military occupation, being starved, bombed, harassed, and bombed again every few weeks, that you would never have thought at some point "you know these guys are pretty evil and my life would be better if they didn't exist"?

[Evil Bill Obrien 3283]

1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

tl;dr: apply a little nuance, y’all.

What is this "nu-ance" you speak of??

[DDD Dad 14336]

Just now, 'stache said:

Can you say with 100% certainty that if you had been born in Gaza and raised under the thumb of military occupation, being starved, bombed, harassed, and bombed again every few weeks, that you would never have thought at some point "you know these guys are pretty evil and my life would be better if they didn't exist"?

I know I couldn't.  Does that justify me acting on that thought?  If I, or a significant number of my neighbors choose to do so, then what?  

[chainsaw 9866]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

Can you say with 100% certainty that if you had been born in Gaza and raised under the thumb of military occupation, being starved, bombed, harassed, and bombed again every few weeks, that you would never have thought at some point "you know these guys are pretty evil and my life would be better if they didn't exist"?

"I'd have scored on that 4th and Goal"

[Nice Guy Eddie 13511]

One fact that I was unaware before this war was the differences between the Palestinians in Gaza vs the West Bank.

While both Gaza and West Bank have struggles with Israel, Gaza's blockage and overall condition are support by Israel, Palestinian leadership in the West Bank and Egypt. They're all in agreement that Hamas has gotta go and they pursue the suffering of the Gaza citizens that voted Hamas in power. While Gaza is attacking Israel, their fight is effectively with everyone including Muslims.

[Brisketexan 105108]

3 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Can you say with 100% certainty that if you had been born in Gaza and raised under the thumb of military occupation, being starved, bombed, harassed, and bombed again every few weeks, that you would never have thought at some point "you know these guys are pretty evil and my life would be better if they didn't exist"?

Of course I can't.  And you're actually getting my point.  It's not about any inherent "goodness" or "badness" of the people at issue.  Take someone even with a heart of gold....put him in a situation of relentless indoctrination (purposeful, incidental, a mix of those, what have you), and he's going to end up taking a shit position.

Or perhaps you're unfamiliar with the cautionary tale of Tom Tuttle from Tacoma.....

HOW it came about is not particularly relevant any more -- it is the state of things today.

Fortunately, Tom was enough of a dingbat to be de-programmed relatively easily, all things considered, thanks to the awesome Tom Hanks.

[SydneyCarton 48082]

29 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I was asking only because I don't see a point in delving into these polls until we've confirmed that there's no other poll out there being relied on in support of the points being made.

I read the AP article which noted that historically the support surges and wanes depending on whether there's war going on. Basically, a "rally around the flag" effect for the occupied territories. I'd like to see some polls about whether these people are as invested in genocide as so many here seem to believe.

That's great. But they were also elected in 2007 or 2008 when they weren't at war, so they had to be pretty popular then as well. You know, before they then ceased all elections. 

Quote

So then polls are useless for predicting future genocides? On that, we can mostly agree. I'm not a believer in pre-emptive strikes that are rooted only in fear and speculation. By 1942, Germany had already been engaged in imperial conquest, so I was a bit confused by the question. There already existed plenty reason to fight Germany. I would not have supported committing war crimes in Germany such as a systematic starvation of their children.

The best evidence we have is not surveys or polls. It is actual behavior. Palestinian refugees do not commit genocide, which to me is strong evidence that if they are left alone (as they had been before 1948) they will leave everyone else alone. I'm not saying Israel should cease to be vigilant, but I am saying occupation and oppression isn't the answer and is likely counterproductive, if peace truly is their goal.

I mean, I wasn't the guy who was demanding polling that would indicate the people were inherently genocidal. That was you. I find the concept ridiculous, yes. But the general support for a regime who's foudning tenet is genocide, well, that seems less easy to dismiss to me. 

And you're back to this. Polls aren't the best measure of a populace, nor are the actions of their leaders they elected. But it's the actions of the refugees alone, many of whom certainly fled such horrifific conditions, by which we judge the whole? That's fucking madness. We didn't judge Nazi Germany by the people who fucking fled Nazi Germany either. But you know what, plenty that did flee were still supporting nazism abroad. Just like many of the Russians that fled mobilisation becuase they didn't want to fight are still spouting anti Ukrainne bullshit all over the world. 

You simply cannot judge a whole people solely on a small subset, many of which who are predisposed to be against the group in power, while IGNORING THE GROUP THAT WAS ELECTED INTO POWER AND WHO PEOPLE CONTINUE TO SHOW SUPPORT FOR IN PALESTINE. I really do not feel like I'm making a controversial statement here, and somehow I'm at a loss. 
 

I don't think Occupation and Oppression will ever work out for Israel. I think it's terrible. I also think that Palestinians have rejected multiple offers for a two state system and their own land. Which would solve the whole occupation and oppression problem. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[TexArcher 37774]

10 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

What is this "nu-ance" you speak of??

I believe it's pronounced noo-ahn-chee.  I banged an Italian girl once, so this hits home.

[SydneyCarton 48082]

11 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Can you say with 100% certainty that if you had been born in Gaza and raised under the thumb of military occupation, being starved, bombed, harassed, and bombed again every few weeks, that you would never have thought at some point "you know these guys are pretty evil and my life would be better if they didn't exist"?

I'll answer this one too. Of course I'd think that. If my parents had been blown up when I was 5 in a reprisal, I'd probably act on it. Which is also part of my point, these people have no other point of view thanks to repression and propoganda, and it's not their fault. But it certainly is Israel's fucking problem. And that's not to say Israel isn't making it worse, but they've tried the carrot and the stick and the result seems to be the same regardless. 

I'm not saying the Palestinians are wrong to be upset. And hell, I can wrap my brain around many of them being in that shitty environment and thinking "You know, raping and kidnapping and mudering women and children is justified considering what's been done to me and mine." Because it's not like they've been raised with a value for Jewish life, they've been told they're demons their entire lives. They don't have a comparison of western culture with which to compare what they've been told. Most of Russians seem to have completely broken brains from decades of propoganda. We're literally watching a huge chunk of America's brains being broken by propoganda, advocating revolution, advocating murdering their political opponents to "save" America.

And yet somehow the idea that a group of people who've actually been murdered, oppressed, and mistreated could be harboring an equally large percentage of people ready to murder and commit heinous acts on their perceived opponents is fucking unbelievable to some? 

It's a fucking problem. Problems don't get solved by ignoring key aspects of reality. That's how you fucking GET problems.   

[chainsaw 9866]

9 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

That's great. But they were also elected in 2007 or 2008 when they weren't at war, so they had to be pretty popular then as well. You know, before they then ceased all elections. 

I mean, I wasn't the guy who was demanding polling that would indicate the people were inherently genocidal. That was you. I find the concept ridiculous, yes. But the general support for a regime who's foudning tenet is genocide, well, that seems less easy to dismiss to me. 

And you're back to this. Polls aren't the best measure of a populace, nor are the actions of their leaders they elected. But it's the actions of the refugees alone, many of whom certainly fled such horrifific conditions, by which we judge the whole? That's fucking madness. We didn't judge Nazi Germany by the people who fucking fled Nazi Germany either. But you know what, plenty that did flee were still supporting nazism abroad. Just like many of the Russians that fled mobilisation becuase they didn't want to flight are still spouting anti Ukrainne bullshit all over the world. 

You simply cannot judge a whole people solely on a small subset, many of which who are predisposed to be against the group in power, while IGNORING THE GROUP THAT WAS ELECTED INTO POWER AND WHO PEOPLE CONTINUE TO SHOW SUPPORT FOR IN PALESTINE. I really do not feel like I'm making a controversial statement here, and somehow I'm at a loss. 
 

I don't think Occupation and Oppression will ever work out for Israel. I think it's terrible. I also think that Palestinians have rejected multiple offers for a two state system and their own land. Which would solve the whole occupation and oppression problem. 

I'm just not seeing evidence of imminent destruction. If they are left alone, there will still be some assholes (like we have in every nation), but there's no reason to believe they would attack Israel, much less do so successfully.

['stache 21807]

24 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I know I couldn't.  Does that justify me acting on that thought?  If I, or a significant number of my neighbors choose to do so, then what?  

I only ask because there is a policy discussion based on "they're all genocidal" and as someone pointed out earlier, there is certainly some nuance there to consider. To be clear, it doesn't excuse Hamas, I've been very clear in trying to distinguish between Hamas and the Palestinian people as a whole. My underlying point remains that Israel's conduct is a root cause that should be considered when asking "what can be done here" but is always ignored by the people who have a say in those policies. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by 'stache

[SydneyCarton 48082]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

I'm just not seeing evidence of imminent destruction. If they are left alone, there will still be some assholes (like we have in every nation), but there's no reason to believe they would attack Israel, much less do so successfully.

Succesful or not is irrelevent. Israel shouldn't have to sit there and take it becuase they've got weapons from the US Military Industrial Complex. 

There's no reason to believe the would attack Israel if left alone? They did it in 1948, they did it in 1967 (which led to all these Israeli land gains like the West Bank and Gaza) and they did it again in 1973??? Plus plenty of other fights and skirmishes. The Palestinian Lebanan war was becuase of the PLO. All of that shit and more happened before Hamas was even founded. 

How can you possibly say there is no reason to believe they would attack Israel? 

 

[956 Worldwide 34706]

59 minutes ago, Foosters said:

I almost hesitate to post this, dare I be accused of anti-Semitism, but you're following the plight of Ukraine, no? Seems about 1/3 of the United States believe they are making up their own genocide to advance their own interest. 

I should be more nuanced on this. It sounds unsatisfactory to say that “the Holocaust and anti-Semitism is different,” but… it’s different. 
 

What I mean here is that, uniquely for Jews, they are accused of making up their own genocide and then those accusations are used as ammunition to justify further atrocities and the same murderous ideology  that led to the original genocide. And uniquely for Jews, this cancerous ideology has metastasized beyond the original conflict setting or original atrocity— not just in an intellectual way but in a tangible way. The Ronaldo “the Jews did this” is funny not only because of its absurdity, but because of its universality— we all instinctively understand that stupid and hateful people from almost every background and extreme political stripe who believe absurd Jew related conspiracy theories. A joke where “the Ukrainians/Armenians did this” might land as a jab at ignorant Russians or Turks or Azeris but it falls flat beyond that sphere. 
 

On the non-funny side, while I am crossing my fingers— thus far white nationalists, Islamic extremists, and beyond are not uniting to carry out massacres at Ukrainian or Armenian Orthodox Churches across the world; the Jewish experience of not being safe anywhere on the planet is unique. 
 

And that’s not to lessen the consequences or potential of what that type of rhetoric can lead to over time. But it IS pointing out that we have a clear road map of its long-term impact because of what happened to the Jews. 

[SydneyCarton 48082]

4 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I only ask because there is a policy discussion based on "they're all genocidal" and as someone pointed out earlier, there is certainly some nuance there to consider. To be clear, it doesn't excuse Hamas, I've been very clear in trying to distinguish between Hamas and the Palestinian people as a whole. My underlying point remains that Israel's conduct is a root cause that should be considered when asking "what can be done here" but is always ignored by the people who have a say in those policies. 

I'm going to answer it too since it's on point with my discussion. 

How can you call the Israeli behavior the root cause when they've been invaded by their neighbors literally more than a dozen times in the last 50 years? 3 of which have been by major PLO or Palestinian interests. Hamas took control of Gaza in 2008. How do you explain all the other invasions of Israel some of which happened before Israel even controlled Gaza? 
It's almost like there might be a widespread sentiment of hatred toward Jews in the region. 

[DDD Dad 14336]

4 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I only ask because there is a policy discussion based on "they're all genocidal" and as someone pointed out earlier, there is certainly some nuance there to consider. To be clear, it doesn't excuse Hamas, I've been very clear in trying to distinguish between Hamas and the Palestinian people as a whole. My underlying point remains that Israel's conduct is a root cause that should be considered when asking "what can be done here" but is always ignored by the people who have a say in those policies. 

FWIW and leaving aside Israel’s conduct with continuing to build settlements in the West Bank, I have seen that they are negotiating with the US and Egypt to try to create a humanitarian corridor for Palestinians to flee the conflict. 

[956 Worldwide 34706]

 

[Brisketexan 105108]

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

And yet somehow the idea that a group of people who've actually been murdered, oppressed, and mistreated could be harboring an equally large percentage of people ready to murder and commit heinous acts on their perceived opponents is fucking unbelievable to some? 

It's a fucking problem. Problems don't get solved by ignoring key aspects of reality. That's how you fucking GET problems.   

Fucking this, this, this.  Sydney, you're singing my song -- better than I can on this topic, apparently.

I am realizing that a shitload of people do not understand the volume and degree of antisemitic  brainwashing that flows through Palestinian society (and yes, lots of other muslim societies).  As someone observed on a Twitter post (someone who had spent a shitload of time in tents, with Kuwaitis, Iraqis, etc.)....imagine the most antisemitic person you've heard/seen....then quintuple it.  And yes, these insanely extremist beliefs can exist in the brain of someone who is otherwise entirely normal and reasonable.

It's not much different than, say, the guy at the checkout counter at your dry cleaners.  You have all kinds of perfectly normal conversations with him -- the weather, fishing, Texas football, traffic, the kids.  But then you mention your cell phone, and he goes off on a rant about how Queen Elizabeth (who is still alive) has programmed all phones to control our minds and make us drink warm beer and eventually surrender our society to the aliens who are currently en route to Earth from Zelnack-9.  Utterly irrational beliefs can exist within the head of an otherwise good and decent and sane person.  

Antisemitism in the muslim world, and especially in the Palestinian world, is a high-dose poison, administered regularly.  I am a bit surprised that we seem to be having an argument about this.  We don't have to get into the contributing factors (e.g., one of the reasons they hate jews is that the local jews have been fucking assholes) to acknowledge that yep, it's a thing.

[G650 14254]

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

There's no reason to believe the would attack Israel if left alone? They did it in 1948,

Uh.....

[G650 14254]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

I am realizing that a shitload of people do not understand the volume and degree of antisemitic  brainwashing that flows through Palestinian society

Lmao. The good old "you just don't understand " condescension. Love it

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I’ll post this here even though it’s not political. But it’s not news either.

I follow this cool account on Instagram where a guy looks for old film in thrift stores and elsewhere. He digitizes it and cleans it up to show people. They uploaded several clips from the early 60s of life in Israel. Do not read the comments.

https://instagram.com/p/CyRZZWGgN4j/

[SydneyCarton 48082]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

Uh.....

Go ahead. Are you saying that Israel fired first in 1948, or Palestine was displesed with Isarel declaring Independance and attacked? To be transparent, I'm using this as my cheat sheet. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/israel-palestine-conflict-timeline-history-explained/

Quote

1948: Israel declares independence

Return to menu

After World War II, nearing the end of the British Mandate for Palestine, the United Nations General Assembly in 1947 passes Resolution 181, urging the partition of the land into two independent states — one Arab and one Jewish. Religiously significant Jerusalem is to be under special international administration. The plan is not implemented after the Arab side rejects it, arguing that it is unfavorable to their majority population. Violence in the regional conflict grows.

What is Hamas, and why did it attack Israel now?

Israel declares independence in May 1948. The next day, a coalition of Arab states, allied with Palestinian factions, attack Israeli forces in what becomes the first of several Arab-Israeli wars. In the end, Israel gains control of an even larger portion of territory — not including the areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. An estimated 700,000 Palestinians flee or are driven from their land in what Palestinians refer to as the “Nakba,” or “catastrophe” in Arabic.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[Brisketexan 105108]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

Lmao. The good old "you just don't understand " condescension. Love it

Well, when you've demonstrated that indeed you don't understand, and relentlessly downplay the deep and strong thread of antisemitism that exists in the region (and that has manifested itself in multiple actual wars with the actual goal of actually exterminating the jewish state, I mean for fuck's sake, we're not making this shit up)....yeah, you just don't understand.

The fucking dismissive handwave of how big a factor antisemitism is....is truly baffling to me.

[chainsaw 9866]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

Succesful or not is irrelevent. Israel shouldn't have to sit there and take it becuase they've got weapons from the US Military Industrial Complex. 

There's no reason to believe the would attack Israel if left alone? They did it in 1948, they did it in 1967 (which led to all these Israeli land gains like the West Bank and Gaza) and they did it again in 1973??? Plus plenty of other fights and skirmishes. The Palestinian Lebanan war was becuase of the PLO. All of that shit and more happened before Hamas was even founded. 

How can you possibly say there is no reason to believe they would attack Israel? 

 

I think you and I might have very different views on what qualifies as "left alone."

[Brisketexan 105108]

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Israel declares independence in May 1948. The next day, a coalition of Arab states, allied with Palestinian factions, attack Israeli forces in what becomes the first of several Arab-Israeli wars. In the end, Israel gains control of an even larger portion of territory — not including the areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. An estimated 700,000 Palestinians flee or are driven from their land in what Palestinians refer to as the “Nakba,” or “catastrophe” in Arabic.

Also....how is this not an entire chapter in the "Fuck Around and Find Out Chronicles?"  Palestinians and their arab allies fought a war to exterminate the Israeli state.  They fucked up, badly, and actually LOST land.  You know a great way NOT to have had that outcome?  Don't try to exterminate Israel and the jews.  And certainly don't try to do so over, and over, and over, losing more land and control each time.