Israel

[Tonesky 934]

1 minute ago, Fastbreak said:

My peace plan:

Step 1: get rid of religions
Step 2: problem solved
Step 3: send me Nobel Peace Prize

A more focused step 1 could solve things while still allowing the masses their opium - get rid of fundamentalists (of all faiths).

[Brisketexan 105,096]

Just now, Neonmoon said:

I created that plan before you. I’ll fight you for it 

[SydneyCarton 48,079]

11 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Yes but the polls don't really support the conclusion you're drawing. The charter was amended in 2017 and is no longer quite as bloodthirsty. Have you read it?

You have yet to actually post any of these polls you reference in certainty. By all means, we’re waiting. I’ve done a fuck ton of reading today to support my points. Return the favor. Because all you’re doing is repeating some version of “I don’t believe what you’re saying because I don’t believe what you’re saying. 
 

hard to argue with briskets point below as well. You’ll say lot all Palestinians dont feel that way, but Hamas the ruling party executed that. Not very “less bloodthirsty” nor are the follow up remarks from their leadership…in Qatar. Their less bloodthirsty charter doesn’t mean much when killing, raping, and kidnapping thousands of men, women, and children. 

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I read their new "charter."  They wrote it on Saturday.  They wrote it in blood.  In bold type.

Edited October 11, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[Brisketexan 105,096]

Just now, tchookem said:

Bibi may not come out and say they want Palestinians eradicated, but their treatment and dehumanization gives me pause to think.

There's definitely an argument to be made that Bibi is as bad as Hamas.  The Israeli hard right is fucking morally indefensible.

[chainsaw 9,865]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I read their new "charter."  They wrote it on Saturday.  They wrote it in blood.  In bold type.

I'm willing to bet that if the people they claim to represent could vote for that, they wouldn't. But even if you're not willing to make that bet, it wouldn't mean their hypothetical votes mean they deserve to be victims of crimes against humanity.

[chainsaw 9,865]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

There's definitely an argument to be made that Bibi is as bad as Hamas.  The Israeli hard right is fucking morally indefensible.

Not just as bad; he propped them up.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

[SydneyCarton 48,079]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Not just as bad; he propped them up.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Bibi is pretty motherfucking horrible, and I’ve said as much today many times. 

[Brisketexan 105,096]

Just now, chainsaw said:

I'm willing to bet that if the people they claim to represent could vote for that, they wouldn't. But even if you're not willing to make that bet, it wouldn't mean their hypothetical votes mean they deserve to be victims of crimes against humanity.

Of course they don't deserve to be victims of crimes against humanity.  No person does.  Never proposed that they should.

I HAVE acknowledged that in a hot, messy war, with Hamas using them as human shields (an actual war crime), civilians WILL die.  If Israel purposefully targets civilians for the sake of killing civilians, they should be held to account.  If Israel shoots a civilian because Hamas is using that person as a human shield, the criminal actor there is Hamas.

And yeah, I'm not gonna lean your way on the bet. As Sydney notes, you are just going with how you feel (how you hope) things should be.  The actual polling data, the most recent votes for leadership, and war after war after war of extermination launched against Israel, tells us that actually....a fuckton of Palestinians actually would vote for the "charter" Hamas wrote on Saturday.

[SydneyCarton 48,079]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I'm willing to bet that if the people they claim to represent could vote for that, they wouldn't. But even if you're not willing to make that bet, it wouldn't mean their hypothetical votes mean they deserve to be victims of crimes against humanity.

Again, you’re maki if assumptions that match your worldview, despite polling support for Hamas. 
 

But thats irrelevant. You explicitly pointed to their “less bloodthirsty” charter from 2017 as if it meant something after Saturday. What do you think it’s indicative of, considering recent events? 

[Brisketexan 105,096]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Not just as bad; he propped them up.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Yep.  I said in another post that there may be a damned good argument that Bibi should hang.  I'd really like to find out the real scoop on how the Egyptian warnings about Hamas were treated when they came in.  If Bibi knew these attacks were coming, and allowed them in order to give him casus belli to do what he's wanted to do: go apeshit on Palestinians...then he's a fucking war criminal, and the blood of over 1,000 Israelis already is on his hands.

If Bibi ends up strung up from an olive tree when this is all said and done, the world will be a better place.

[chainsaw 9,865]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

Again, you’re maki if assumptions that match your worldview, despite polling support for Hamas. 
 

But thats irrelevant. You explicitly pointed to their “less bloodthirsty” charter from 2017 as if it meant something after Saturday. What do you think it’s indicative of, considering recent events? 

What I think is that "less" means "less" and nothing less. Take the boot of their throats and the temperature of the average Palestinian will go down, as will their tolerance of violent groups.

[MissingInAction 25,041]

"Fewer"

[David Dennison 18,854]

20 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

The IDF does as much or more than any military in the world to honor just that, but they seem to be the only country/armed forces judged by a standard of perfection.

Does this take the effects of the blockade into account?

['stache 21,802]

11 minutes ago, tchookem said:

I'm starting to think that Israeli leadership's view of Palestinians isn't all that different than Hamas's view of Israelis. Bibi may not come out and say they want Palestinians eradicated, but their treatment and dehumanization gives me pause to think.

Israel can accomplish this through traditional warfare . . . 

 

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There's definitely an argument to be made that Bibi is as bad as Hamas.  The Israeli hard right is fucking morally indefensible.

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Bibi is pretty motherfucking horrible, and I’ve said as much today many times. 

. . .  because any western politician who says this will be called an anti-Semite. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by 'stache

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

"precision"

 

 

[tchookem 3,900]

. . .  because any western politician who says this will be called an anti-Semite. 

This is the reason I haven't verbalized it to my many Jewish and Jew-ish friends.

[Brisketexan 105,096]

1 minute ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

"precision"

 

 

"Warfare":

This started messy as fuck.  It will end messy as fuck.  If those areas bombed were populated by civilians only, and were not being used by Hamas for military or  staging purposes, than fuck Israel.  But if they were being used by Hamas, even with civilians in them (being used as shields, a clear war crime)....then that's how war goes.  

 

[Tonesky 934]

28 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

The IDF does as much or more than any military in the world to honor just that, but they seem to be the only country/armed forces judged by a standard of perfection.

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Does this take the effects of the blockade into account?

There are reasons for the blockade, which can be debated, but it is not simply to oppress the Palestinian people.  The blockade is a governmental policy.  It is also supported and assisted by Egypt.  It is a bit simplistic to argue that the effects of Israeli and Egyptian governmental policy is a crime against humanity perpetrated by the IDF. 

[Chopper 17,230]

6 minutes ago, tchookem said:

This is the reason I haven't verbalized it to my many Jewish and Jew-ish friends.

Hundreds of thousands of Israelis have demonstrated in the streets of Israel against Bibi over the past year. Most US Jews hate the motherfucker. It's not Jews you have to be concerned about when voicing your opinion about Bibi. And just from reading what you've written on this last page or two alone, your opinion of Bibi would likely be well at the bottom of the list of your opinions that would upset your "many Jewish friends." Feel free to tell them what you think about the man.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"Warfare":

This started messy as fuck.  It will end messy as fuck.  If those areas bombed were populated by civilians only, and were not being used by Hamas for military or  staging purposes, than fuck Israel.  But if they were being used by Hamas, even with civilians in them (being used as shields, a clear war crime)....then that's how war goes.  

 

Should I retort with dead Palestinian children from the last 16 years?   I already gave you links and you just said "that's nice but I'm all about blah" and carried on with your own takes and the usual Brisket tough guy keyboard warrior bullshit.  You refuse to educate yourself on this matter, and you're not worth arguing with.  You'd rather bloviate here then do some fucking reading.  Which is a shame.  I have enjoyed some of your posts in other threads.  But this thread has me questioning who I 'hang out with' online quite honestly.  Not just you to be fair.  

 

[David Dennison 18,854]

Just now, Tonesky said:

There are reasons for the blockade, which can be debated, but it is not simply to oppress the Palestinian people.  The blockade is a governmental policy.  It is also supported and assisted by Egypt.  It is a bit simplistic to argue that the effects of Israeli and Egyptian governmental policy is a crime against humanity perpetrated by the IDF. 

Fair enough regarding the IDF. But that governmental policy is abhorrent.

[Tonesky 934]

19 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Bibi is pretty motherfucking horrible, and I’ve said as much today many times. 

11 minutes ago, tchookem said:

This is the reason I haven't verbalized it to my many Jewish and Jew-ish friends.

Jew here.  I guarantee you a huge number of American Jews, including damn near all who identify as democrats, agree with you. 

[Nivek 16,923]

What's more likely, that a majority of Palestinians are irredeemably supportive of terror and genocide but only "somewhat" support their de facto government or that a majority Palestinians want their own liberation and "somewhat" support a group who has promised but continually fails to deliver liberation?
I'd like to see this poll done in Palestine: If Hamas were to quit using terror and violence, would that make you more likely or less likely to support it?
My guess it would be something like 80+% "more likely"
 

The “you made us elect Donald Trump” defense.

[Tonesky 934]

2 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Should I retort with dead Palestinian children from the last 16 years?   I already gave you links and you just said "that's nice but I'm all about blah" and carried on with your own takes and the usual Brisket tough guy keyboard warrior bullshit.  You refuse to educate yourself on this matter, and you're not worth arguing with.  You'd rather bloviate here then do some fucking reading.  Which is a shame.  I have enjoyed some of your posts in other threads.  But this thread has me questioning who I 'hang out with' online quite honestly.  Not just you to be fair.  

 

The goal/purpose of Israeli military actions is not to kill civilians, including babies.  With the possible exception of rogue criminal settler behavior, there is no equivalence between Israeli defense action and the pogrom just perpetrated by Hamas.  Although you will clap back with some bullshit, I expect you actually know that is true. 

[Brisketexan 105,096]

4 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Should I retort with dead Palestinian children from the last 16 years?   I already gave you links and you just said "that's nice but I'm all about blah" and carried on with your own takes and the usual Brisket tough guy keyboard warrior bullshit.  You refuse to educate yourself on this matter, and you're not worth arguing with.  You'd rather bloviate here then do some fucking reading.  Which is a shame.  I have enjoyed some of your posts in other threads.  But this thread has me questioning who I 'hang out with' online quite honestly.  Not just you to be fair.  

 

And before Saturday, I would have chimed in plenty had you made those points.  I think I've been pretty consistent in my position of "combatants shouldn't purposefully kill innocents, particularly children."  I've been plenty fucking critical of Israel in the past (and even more so recently, with the rise of hard-right bullshit in Israel, purposefully and cruelly inflaming the situation).  I've paid attention to this issue for fucking decades (although I freely admit I'm FAR from an expert -- but I'm not a rube with no idea what's been happening since, say, 1948).

But yeah.....there was a line crossed.  And plenty of friends of mine wondering who stands with them, and which shoulder they need to be looking over.  I'm sure as shit going to make sure they know that I stand with them, and I have their back.  Zero apology from me on that front.

But, yeah...you probably should be more careful about who you associate with.  I can certainly be a real piece of shit.  It happens.

[MissingInAction 25,041]

23 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

"precision"

 

 

All of the cunts are underground awaiting the ground assault. 

[Brisketexan 105,096]

1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

WTF is going on?   I am beginning to think the rest of the world gives even more credence to the idea that this is a special place where special rules apply than the Israelis and the Arabs do.  Sanctions will be placed on hostile regimes.  Attacks will be met with counterattacks.  Someone is going to win and someone is going to lose.  Territory will change hands based on who wins. It’s not actually that complicated or unique.

QFT.

[Dbeasy 15,047]

Pretty interesting thread.

We’ve got chainsaw advocating a “chill out Israeli dudes” because “I FEEL that Palestinians will be cool too.”

And G650 demanding discussions cease immediately because of some sort of “we don’t talk about fight club” proclamation. 

OK 

[Aqua Buddha 14,590]

3 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Economic sanctions on Iran and North Korea are crimes against humanity, if you ignore the context of why they’re put in place. 

Vietnam needs a two state solution.  The former South Vietnamese can point to all kinds of atrocities and the fact that their territory was taken from them more recently than 1948.  Let’s talk about which lands are going to be ceded.

Taiwan can expect to be left alone if they invade China and murder a few thousand Chinese women and children and launch rocket attacks on Hong Kong.  After all, Taiwan is densely populated and civilians are everywhere.

WTF is going on?   I am beginning to think the rest of the world gives even more credence to the idea that this is a special place where special rules apply than the Israelis and the Arabs do.  Sanctions will be placed on hostile regimes.  Attacks will be met with counterattacks.  Someone is going to win and someone is going to lose.  Territory will change hands based on who wins. It’s not actually that complicated or unique.

 

When you realize the Palestinians are merely pawns on the chess board and the long game is to eliminate all Jews from Israel itself, one way or the other.  They know they can't take the land back militarily so the Palestinians are pawns politically.    

It's why they refused the two state solution despite saying that's what they wanted.  What the really wanted was right of full return which basically meant they'd claim all of the land they lost earlier.

[Tonesky 934]

4 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Economic sanctions on Iran and North Korea are crimes against humanity, if you ignore the context of why they’re put in place. 

Vietnam needs a two state solution.  The former South Vietnamese can point to all kinds of atrocities and the fact that their territory was taken from them more recently than 1948.  Let’s talk about which lands are going to be ceded.

Taiwan can expect to be left alone if they invade China and murder a few thousand Chinese women and children and launch rocket attacks on Hong Kong.  After all, Taiwan is densely populated and civilians are everywhere.

WTF is going on?   I am beginning to think the rest of the world gives even more credence to the idea that this is a special place where special rules apply than the Israelis and the Arabs do.  Sanctions will be placed on hostile regimes.  Attacks will be met with counterattacks.  Someone is going to win and someone is going to lose.  Territory will change hands based on who wins. It’s not actually that complicated or unique.

 

This gets right to the heart of why people who claim they are just criticizing the Israeli government are sometimes actually (and accurately called out as) anti-Semites.  

[Brisketexan 105,096]

Maybe I'll sign off today with a text from my friend, in response to my short message simply letting him know that I give a shit about him and his family, and I want him to know that I will always have his back, whatever that may be.  These are friends with whom we regularly break bread.  We have thanksgiving together.  In fact, a couple of years ago, our thanksgiving table was our mexican coonass family, our jewish friends, and our afghan muslim friends.  It was what humanity is supposed to be.

This is his response, and the simple snapshot of the dichotomy of thinking that is going through the minds of so many jews today:

Quote

Thanks Brisket. The whole thing is so sad and such a mess, on so many levels. I want peace. I want Palestinians to have self determination. But that clearly can’t happen until Hamas (basically ISIS) is gone. It is very tense. We have family and friends there. People who were working on a computer yesterday are today wearing a uniform and carrying a rifle. Absolutely surreal. I don’t have a lot of words here.
 

I too wish for peace, and not a false peace, but one that means freedom and self-determination for human beings who should all be treated and live as such.

But I'm not going to waste a split second of time hoping for it, because I don't think it's in reach, or ever will be.

[SydneyCarton 48,079]

40 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

What I think is that "less" means "less" and nothing less. Take the boot of their throats and the temperature of the average Palestinian will go down, as will their tolerance of violent groups.

But the proverbial boot was off their throats from 66-2008, what did they do? How many wars and insurrections? Why would now be different? I have yet to see any reasonable explanation as to why it would be different than before. 
 

This is fucking Marlo.gif. You want it the one way. To be clear,  I also want it the one way, same as you.
 

but it’s the other way.  

Edited October 11, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[G650 14,251]

9 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

And G650 demanding discussions cease immediately because of some sort of “we don’t talk about fight club” proclamation

I guess we got another total misrepresentation of what I have been saying.

 

There's plenty to talk about as I explicitly said in my post. Things you shouldn't talk about if you wish to remain non moronic looking is how you are little Kissinger and this problem should be solved by <insert moronic idea>. I'll reiterate that a load of folks are conflating an acute issue (this Hamas attack) with a much larger problem

 

TL;DR: I'm specifically saying a large segment of you don't know shit about fuck.

[Dbeasy 15,047]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

I guess we got another total misrepresentation of what I have been saying.

 

There's plenty to talk about as I explicitly said in my post. Things you shouldn't talk about if you wish to remain non moronic looking is how you are little Kissinger and this problem should be solved by <insert moronic idea>. I'll reiterate that a load of folks are conflating an acute issue (this Hamas attack) with a much larger problem

 

TL;DR: I'm specifically saying a large segment of you don't know shit about fuck.

Maybe a sports message board full of people who don’t know shit about fuck is the best place for someone of your incredible brilliance and knowledge. 

[Chopper 17,230]

7 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

When you realize the Palestinians are merely pawns on the chess board and the long game is to eliminate all Jews from Israel itself, one way or the other.  They know they can't take the land back militarily so the Palestinians are pawns politically.   

and then you have the christian evangelicals, half of whom support Israel because they think they believe it's vitally important for fulfilling their end-times prophecy.

[F250 28,767]

This thread would be a lot more interesting of there was a tag applied to those that voted for Dubya and were supporters of the War on Terror. I have a feeling that the people taking positions now were taking similar positions back then.

 

 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

Why did Egypt and Israel implement the blockade?

[CoTex 1,160]

Dumb question here goes -

 

is there ever a time when you just admit defeat, take the loss, and move on?

Let’s say I’m Joe Palestinian.  I’ve got a wife and two kids.  I can try to gtfo and go to Egypt, America, who knows.  Anywhere but the place where I’m not prospering because … complicated reasons.  If I pull the trigger on that decision I’m subjecting my family to stress, uncertainty, and distance from all things known - family, language, culture.  But I’m also giving them hope.

Alternatively I can dig in and say “my land, not fair, father’s heritage, never say die.  My children’s hope then depends on a successful war and eradication of an enemy or, if not that, at least a good enough showing at war that I get some kind of Korea armistice.

If i’m Joe, im saving up $5,000 and gtfo.

What am I missing?

['stache 21,802]

14 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

But the proverbial boot was off their throats from 66-2008, what did they do? How many wars and insurrections? Why would now be different? I have yet to see any reasonable explanation as to why it would be different than before. 

Yeah, I’m gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there, but we’re all broken records at this point. It doesn’t matter what any of us think or feel, the western powers decided long ago that Israel wins every scenario. Palestinians will submit or be wiped out. Many think that’s fine, I disagree.

[BrickHorn 18,219]

54 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If Israel purposefully targets civilians for the sake of killing civilians, they should be held to account.  If Israel shoots a civilian because Hamas is using that person as a human shield, the criminal actor there is Hamas.

And those are the only two ways civilians could die in this war. Case closed!

[G650 14,251]

3 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Maybe a sports message board full of people who don’t know shit about fuck is the best place for someone of your incredible brilliance and knowledge. 

Item 5,782 that someone has attributed to me that I haven't said. Do any of you people actually read what anyone else writes or do you juat skim?

[Tonesky 934]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

Why did Egypt and Israel implement the blockade?

Hmm, no blockade of the West Bank, controlled by the PA, which is not a terrorist organization; blockade of Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas, an Iranian proxy terrorist organization with the stated goal of elimination of Israel and Jews.  You do the math.

[Chopper 17,230]

Just now, Neonmoon said:

Why did Egypt and Israel implement the blockade?

5 letters. H_m__

Just now, &#x27;stache said:

Yeah, I’m gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there, but we’re all broken records at this point. It doesn’t matter what any of us think or feel, the western powers decided long ago that Israel wins every scenario. Palestinians will submit or be wiped out. Many think that’s fine, I disagree.

You're conflating Palestinians and Hamas. Many think that's fine. I disagree.

[Anastasis 23,469]

Just now, &#x27;stache said:

Yeah, I’m gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there, but we’re all broken records at this point. It doesn’t matter what any of us think or feel, the western powers decided long ago that Israel wins every scenario. Palestinians will submit or be wiped out. Many think that’s fine, I disagree.

But seriously, I would like to understand how the situation on the ground between 66-08 is somehow a period where the Palestinian people were not under military occupation with a boot on their necks. I assume that it was just an ahistorical throw away argument, but maybe there is something substantive there that I am missing.  

[hobbes2702 13,032]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet....you and plenty of others spent a shitload of keystrokes telling us what Israel "should not" do.  Sure looks like sentences with the word "should" in it, repeatedly.  If all you have to offer, when discussing a response to a challenging situation, is "well.....here's what you SHOULDN'T do," that's fucking bullshit.  Yet....you're a-ok with that.  Your hypocrisy is noted.

I'm not dehumanizing anyone.  Haven't proposed doing so, am not doing so, will not do so.  It is a reality that the thread of antisemitism is incredibly powerful in the region -- so powerful it has led the Palestinians and their allies to make multiple attempts to evict the jews from the levant, and for a movement that was literally elected by popular vote of Palestinians in Gaza to make it the foundation of their platform.  I'm not making any of that up.  Actual people actually did these things.

Maybe we even understand some of WHY they did those things.  But it's still where they ended up.  It's not "dehumanizing" to observe that a fuckload of the German people either happily went along with violent antisemitism or were quite comfortable being complicit in it.  It's true.  They did that.  And the Palestinians are doing similarly now.

I know you don't like that this truth keeps getting put back in front of you, because it's incompatible with how you want things to be now and in the future, but denying it is only lying to ourselves.

It’s not bullshit to admit that we aren’t experts in urban warfare and combat. It’s bullshit to pretend you or anyone else here has an answer. It’s bullshit that you can’t wrap your head around the idea that people can simply think we should try to preserve life as much as humanly possible.

You are dehumanizing them. You’re basically saying is civilians die because Hamas uses them as shields well thems the breaks. At least it will be Hamas’ fault. 
 

I don’t give a fuck who’s at fault. Let’s do our damndest to find a solution that results in fewer dead civilians.

Edited October 11, 2023 by hobbes2702

[caliHORNia 44]

53 minutes ago, tchookem said:

 

 

This is the reason I haven't verbalized it to my many Jewish and Jew-ish friends.

 

Unless they are orthodox and politically conservative they likely think he’s a shitbag too

[South Austin 52,463]

10 minutes ago, CoTex said:

Let’s say I’m Joe Palestinian.  

I think they’d call you Yusuf Palestinian.

[Covri 6,247]

7 minutes ago, G650 said:

Item 5,782 that someone has attributed to me that I haven't said. Do any of you people actually read what anyone else writes or do you juat skim?

98% skim, 2% gif opportunity #surlyway

 

 

[Tonesky 934]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

It’s not bullshit to admit that we aren’t experts in urban warfare and combat. It’s bullshit to pretend you or anyone else here has an answer. It’s bullshit that you can’t wrap your head around the idea that people can simply think we should try to preserve life as much as humanly possible.

And, that even while doing just that, any serious effort to fight Hamas will result in unintended Palestinian civilian casualties. 

[G650 14,251]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

It’s bullshit to pretend you or anyone else here has an answer

Yes.

 

1 minute ago, Covri said:

98% skim, 2% gif opportunity #surlyway