Israel

[caliHORNia 44]

3 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

I know I couldn't.  Does that justify me acting on that thought?  If I, or a significant number of my neighbors choose to do so, then what?  

this scenario is such liberal fantasy.  It completely denies the why of those things happening.

 

you will not find an Israeli bombardment that didn’t start w Palestinian rockets.  
 

peace has been offered many times and refused.  They have literally no one to blame but themselves - regardless of how morally repugnant Bibi and every settler is

Edited October 11, 2023 by caliHORNia

[SydneyCarton 48110]

26 minutes ago, G650 said:

I guess we got another total misrepresentation of what I have been saying.

 

There's plenty to talk about as I explicitly said in my post. Things you shouldn't talk about if you wish to remain non moronic looking is how you are little Kissinger and this problem should be solved by <insert moronic idea>. I'll reiterate that a load of folks are conflating an acute issue (this Hamas attack) with a much larger problem

 

TL;DR: I'm specifically saying a large segment of you don't know shit about fuck.

But not me, right? We’re cool? 

23 minutes ago, F250 said:

This thread would be a lot more interesting of there was a tag applied to those that voted for Dubya and were supporters of the War on Terror. I have a feeling that the people taking positions now were taking similar positions back then.

 

 

Out of curiosity how would you peg me?

22 minutes ago, CoTex said:

Dumb question here goes -

 

is there ever a time when you just admit defeat, take the loss, and move on?

Let’s say I’m Joe Palestinian.  I’ve got a wife and two kids.  I can try to gtfo and go to Egypt, America, who knows.  Anywhere but the place where I’m not prospering because … complicated reasons.  If I pull the trigger on that decision I’m subjecting my family to stress, uncertainty, and distance from all things known - family, language, culture.  But I’m also giving them hope.

Alternatively I can dig in and say “my land, not fair, father’s heritage, never say die.  My children’s hope then depends on a successful war and eradication of an enemy or, if not that, at least a good enough showing at war that I get some kind of Korea armistice.

If i’m Joe, im saving up $5,000 and gtfo.

What am I missing?

I honestly believe that many countries do not want them, and getting out, much less getting a visa elsewhere, is a low percentage proposition. I’m assuming many are trapped, and others don’t want to go. 

21 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Yeah, I’m gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there, but we’re all broken records at this point. It doesn’t matter what any of us think or feel, the western powers decided long ago that Israel wins every scenario. Palestinians will submit or be wiped out. Many think that’s fine, I disagree.

I don’t want Palestinians wiped out. At all. I don’t want anyone wiped out, even the fucking Russians. But if the Palestinians would stop initiating conflicts, they wouldn’t be losing. But they want to keep fighting. So this is what we get. 
 

 

18 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

But seriously, I would like to understand how the situation on the ground between 66-08 is somehow a period where the Palestinian people were not under military occupation with a boot on their necks. I assume that it was just an ahistorical throw away argument, but maybe there is something substantive there that I am missing.  

Well the specific touch point here for “boot on the neck” to my understanding is the military blockade of Gaza. That’s what has been cited as the most inhumane aspect. That’s what’s been cited as the shittastic behavior of Israel. The West Bank doesn’t have a blockade. The blockade started in 2008 when Hamas and their agenda of genocide were elected into power in Gaza. The blockade is what’s cited, the regulation of food and water into Gaza, control of power, etc. so that’s why I cite 2008. Before 2008, things were categorically not as bad. 
 

how many times did Palestinians launch raids/wars with Israel? The answer isn’t “zero.”

Edited October 11, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[David Dennison 18922]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

I don’t want Palestinians wiped out. At all. I don’t want anyone wiped out, even the fucking Russians. But if the Palestinians would stop initiating conflicts, they wouldn’t be losing. But they want to keep fighting. So this is what we get. 

And if Israel would stop oppressing Palestinians . . . you get the idea.

[DixonHur 11340]

22 minutes ago, CoTex said:

If i’m Joe, im saving up $5,000 and gtfo.

What am I missing?

What you're missing is that the average household income in Gaza is less than $600/mo.  How is Joe Palestinian supposed to feed his family, keep a roof over their head AND save $5,000?

[SydneyCarton 48110]

Just now, David Dennison said:

And if Israel would stop oppressing Palestinians . . . you get the idea.

The Palestinians consistently, always, start the major conflicts. They’ve also refused all 2 state offers. And they’ve done with before there were blockades. Before Hamas existed. 
 

Should Israel turn the other cheek from Saturday?  Bullshit. 

[Anastasis 23475]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Well the specific touch point here for “boot on the neck” to my understanding is the military blockade of Gaza. That’s what has been cited as the most inhumane aspect. That’s what’s been cited as the shittastoc behavior of Israel. The West Bank doesn’t have a blockade. The blockade started in 2008 when Hamas and their agenda of genocide were elected into power in Gaza. The blockade is what’s cited, the regulation of food and water into Gaza, control of power, etc. so that’s why I cite 2008. Before 2008, things were categorically not as bad. 

I see. The palestinians have been under military occupation the entire time frame indicated. The WB is carved up into non-contiguous areas with hundreds of checkpoints where the people that live there are systematically dehumanized. They literally live with boots on their necks. But yes, the blockade of Gaza has certainly taken things to another level. 

[David Dennison 18922]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

The Palestinians consistently, always, start the major conflicts. They’ve also refused all 2 state offers. And they’ve done with before there were blockades. Before Hamas existed. 
 

Should Israel turn the other cheek from Saturday?  Bullshit. 

Of course not. But Israel should end the policy of oppressing their Palestinian neighbors. If they aren't going to annex the territories, they should leave the West Bank and end the Gaza blockade.

[Anastasis 23475]

30 minutes ago, CoTex said:

Dumb question here goes -

 

is there ever a time when you just admit defeat, take the loss, and move on?

Let’s say I’m Joe Palestinian.  I’ve got a wife and two kids.  I can try to gtfo and go to Egypt, America, who knows.  Anywhere but the place where I’m not prospering because … complicated reasons.  If I pull the trigger on that decision I’m subjecting my family to stress, uncertainty, and distance from all things known - family, language, culture.  But I’m also giving them hope.

Alternatively I can dig in and say “my land, not fair, father’s heritage, never say die.  My children’s hope then depends on a successful war and eradication of an enemy or, if not that, at least a good enough showing at war that I get some kind of Korea armistice.

If i’m Joe, im saving up $5,000 and gtfo.

What am I missing?

Those with the means left a long time ago. First the Christians, then the educated class of the Muslims. What remains reflects the "brain drain" and a population of people that have literally no options in front of them. And to be totally fair, the fucking Arab countries around them have absolutely zero interest in providing anything that looks like opportunity to them.  

[Dbeasy 15068]

 

Now I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You said:

34 minutes ago, G650 said:

TL;DR: I'm specifically saying a large segment of you don't know shit about fuck.

 Then I made a fabulous joke:

32 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Maybe a sports message board full of people who don’t know shit about fuck is the best place for someone of your incredible brilliance and knowledge. 

And now you say this in response to it?

27 minutes ago, G650 said:

Item 5,782 that someone has attributed to me that I haven't said. Do any of you people actually read what anyone else writes or do you juat skim?

Am I being punked? Where's Ashton Kutcher?

 

 

 

[SydneyCarton 48110]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Of course not. But Israel should end the policy of oppressing their Palestinian neighbors. If they aren't going to annex the territories, they should leave the West Bank and end the Gaza blockade.

They were on the receiving end of attacks before the blockade. But yeah, it was implemented when Palestinians elected a leadership that has a stated goal of killing every one of your kind. 
 

Why should they make that easier on them? And I say as someone who thinks  the blockade and oppression is bad. But I can also see it from Israel’s point of view too. 
 

it’s like they should accept a 2 state policy and take oppression off the table. I mean, I’d that’s what a majority of them truly wanted. Or maybe a majority really hate Jews. 

[chainsaw 9870]

I'm coming at this from a perspective that Palestinian lives matter. That they are human, they are non-monolithic, and that they want the same things you and I want.

The best evidence of their inherent humanity is the demonstrated conduct of Palestinian refugees worldwide, or more precisely put, the lack of any widespread violence from those refugees.

The next best evidence is going to be polling, although I'm not a huge fan of polls.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

Quote

According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.

In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014.

Israeli lives also matter. They deserve to feel safe. They do not deserve retribution for the war crimes committed by their government, which many Israelis do not support.

The worst thing that could happen is for Israel not to follow the lesson the US learned in the wake of 9/11. Forever wars exact an incalculable toll. Escalation is the worst way to respond to the attack.

[David Dennison 18922]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

it’s like they should accept a 2 state policy and take oppression off the table. I mean, I’d that’s what a majority of them truly wanted. Or maybe a majority really hate Jews. 

Stop the oppression and leave the West Bank. Worth a try.

[6th Street 6413]

 

 

https://www.mediaite.com/entertainment/justin-bieber-publishes-praying-for-israel-post-featuring-photo-of-destroyed-gaza-block/
 

[SydneyCarton 48110]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I'm coming at this from a perspective that Palestinian lives matter. That they are human, they are non-monolithic, and that they want the same things you and I want.

The best evidence of their inherent humanity is the demonstrated conduct of Palestinian refugees worldwide, or more precisely put, the lack of any widespread violence from those refugees.

The next best evidence is going to be polling, although I'm not a huge fan of polls.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

Israeli lives also matter. They deserve to feel safe. They do not deserve retribution for the war crimes committed by their government, which many Israelis do not support.

The worst thing that could happen is for Israel not to follow the lesson the US learned in the wake of 9/11. Forever wars exact an incalculable toll. Escalation is the worst way to respond to the attack.

Thanks for the poll. 38% is still a huuuuuge chunk of folks on board. At what point does the majority of Palestinians have to be responsible for removing Hamas? 

[SydneyCarton 48110]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Stop the oppression and leave the West Bank. Worth a try.

Legit question, as I don’t know, what were the land proposals in the last 2 state solution that was proposed? 
 

They had the West Bank in 66, still started a war. Why expect a different outcome now? Isn’t this appeasement? When does that ever work? The West Bank part, not the oppression. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

The goal/purpose of Israeli military actions is not to kill civilians, including babies.  With the possible exception of rogue criminal settler behavior, there is no equivalence between Israeli defense action and the pogrom just perpetrated by Hamas.  Although you will clap back with some bullshit, I expect you actually know that is true. 

Who are you and why are you quoting me with your vapid takes?

[SydneyCarton 48110]

4 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

 

 

https://www.mediaite.com/entertainment/justin-bieber-publishes-praying-for-israel-post-featuring-photo-of-destroyed-gaza-block/
 

G650 is shouting that Justin Bieber posts somewhere on this thread. 

[G650 14263]

28 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

But not me, right? We’re cool?

[G650 14263]

17 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

 

Now I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. You said:

 Then I made a fabulous joke:

And now you say this in response to it?

Am I being punked? Where's Ashton Kutcher?

 

 

 

Naw man, I'm saying I never claimed brilliance.

[freyguy 4278]

11 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

 

 

https://www.mediaite.com/entertainment/justin-bieber-publishes-praying-for-israel-post-featuring-photo-of-destroyed-gaza-block/
 

Seems like a fine post to me.  Guess some folks like to root around on Twitter just to show how pedantic they can be.

[chainsaw 9870]

5 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Thanks for the poll. 38% is still a huuuuuge chunk of folks on board. At what point does the majority of Palestinians have to be responsible for removing Hamas? 

I mean, MAGA has taught us that basically every country is going to have 30-40% reactionary shitheads. My hypothesis is that when you turn the temperature down, you also reduce demand for simplistic, ineffective solutions like building walls or genociding the people you blame (rightly or wrongly) for your oppression. Will that ever be 0? No, but it will be low enough that, barring some kind of interference or unforeseen curveball, those people will be on the fringe and out of power.

The question of whether and when the people will remove Hamas can't really be answered in a vacuum. As long as there's a more unpopular figure (Israeli occupiers) Hamas will get a lot of leeway to be shitty. Take occupation out of the equation and there will be more bandwidth for the people to hold Hamas (the administrative arm of it) accountable by doing a coup or forcing new elections to happen, resulting in regime change.

[SydneyCarton 48110]

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I mean, MAGA has taught us that basically every country is going to have 30-40% reactionary shitheads. My hypothesis is that when you turn the temperature down, you also reduce demand for simplistic, ineffective solutions like building walls or genociding the people you blame (rightly or wrongly) for your oppression. Will that ever be 0? No, but it will be low enough that, barring some kind of interference or unforeseen curveball, those people will be on the fringe and out of power.

The question of whether and when the people will remove Hamas can't really be answered in a vacuum. As long as there's a more unpopular figure (Israeli occupiers) Hamas will get a lot of leeway to be shitty. Take occupation out of the equation and there will be more bandwidth for the people to hold Hamas (the administrative arm of it) accountable by doing a coup or forcing new elections to happen, resulting in regime change.

We can’t lower the temperature here in America despite free access to information, the internet, a free press, and every resource to understand the truth.  But you expect that to happen in a society that has almost none of that, and is run by people who ascribe to genocide, peddling indoctrination and propaganda 24/7, all the whole both sides are being inundated by bombs and people are dying? 
 

And you think the guys in power who haven’t had an election of any kind in 15 years and who are perfectly happy with the current setup will allow free and fair elections? 
 

Again, agree to disagree. But I admire your optimism. 

[chainsaw 9870]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

We can’t lower the temperature here in America despite free access to information, the internet, a free press, and every resource to understand the truth.  But you expect that to happen in a society that has almost none of that, and is run by people who ascribe to genocide, peddling indoctrination and propaganda 24/7, all the whole both sides are being inundated by bombs and people are dying? 
 

And you think the guys in power who haven’t had an election of any kind in 15 years and who are perfectly happy with the current setup will allow free and fair elections? 
 

Again, agree to disagree. But I admire your optimism. 

The best available evidence tells us there is already majority support for peace and a 2 state solution. As bad as things are here in the US, we are not suffering from an occupation, and I'd even go so far to say as it's insulting to compare anything in the US (besides prisons and maybe also immigrant detention centers) to daily life in Gaza. 40% of Gaza might still be MAGA-level racist against Jews, but if you turn the temperature down a smaller number of those racists polled will express support of genocide than the current number.

I'm not saying regime change will be easy, but I am saying that current conditions make it much harder and much less likely. As I've said from the beginning, Israel is in the driver's seat here. If they were truly interested in seeing Hamas fall (and we know Bibi was propping it up precisely because it made all of Gaza look more radical and dangerous than it really is) they would not have been treating Gaza, and would stop treating Gaza, as brutally as they do.

[F250 28779]

49 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Out of curiosity how would you peg me?

 

[SydneyCarton 48110]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

The best available evidence tells us there is already majority support for peace and a 2 state solution. As bad as things are here in the US, we are not suffering from an occupation, and I'd even go so far to say as it's insulting to compare anything in the US (besides prisons and maybe also immigrant detention centers) to daily life in Gaza. 40% of Gaza might still be MAGA-level racist against Jews, but if you turn the temperature down a smaller number of those racists polled will express support of genocide than the current number.

I'm not saying regime change will be easy, but I am saying that current conditions make it much harder and much less likely. As I've said from the beginning, Israel is in the driver's seat here. If they were truly interested in seeing Hamas fall (and we know Bibi was propping it up precisely because it made all of Gaza look more radical and dangerous than it really is) they would not have been treating Gaza, and would stop treating Gaza, as brutally as they do.

The first part is my point. We can’t lower the temperature and we’re not even close to under occupation. But we’re also not lobbing bombs are terrorizing and raping and looting our political opposites either…yet. I just don’t think it’s likely giving them what they want removes and lowers the temperature while 40% still want death and will continue to behave accordingly. You’re sort of proving my point on this part. 
 

I generally agree with your second paragraph, and would remind you that my positions this entire time have been there is a significant portion of the population that hates Jews and wants them dead and to restore all Palestinian lands. Right now those guys are in power.  And even the polling numbers you’ve evidenced still show it’s at best about 1/3 focused on hate. That’s 1/3 comfortable with terrorism and will continue to do such. Say you give them a 2nd state and West Bank and Gaza and remove the oppression, and the majority agrees, but the fringe doesn’t.  the next time the radical fringe does this Israel will remove them all from this earth. 

[Aqua Buddha 14598]

Israel should give them their own state whether they want one or not.  (Narrator:  they don't.)

Build a wall around Gaza.  A real one, not like Trump's stupid wall.  Make it like the Berlin Wall.  No travel back and forth into Israel, maybe just Egypt.  Then, let them manage themselves and wash their hands of the whole thing.  Running a country is no fun so let them flail away at it.  Food shortage?  Thought shit.  Unemployment?  East my ass.  Rampant inflation due to currency devaluation?  Go fuck yourself.

[Chopper 17238]

51 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

The next best evidence is going to be polling, although I'm not a huge fan of polls.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

According to the article the same poll shows widespread support for Hamas and other terrorist organizations and that those who don't support Hamas support other extreme terror organizations.

The amusing thing though is that the Washington Institute is AIPAC, the extreme lobby for pro-Israel policy in DC. I say this as a Jew who formerly worked in DC in a policy position. The Washington Institute exists merely to help AIPAC raise funds for AIPAC.

[Neonmoon 38129]

1947 - United Nations proposed a 2 state solution and an internationally controlled Jerusalem. Palestinians rejected it. War broke out. The Jews won the war 

1956 - Egypt closed the Suez Canal and Straits of Tiran which threatened Israel’s livelihood because Egypt (Arab) didn’t like Israel (Jewish). Israel invaded to get them to stop, including Egypt controlled Gaza. Israel withdrew from Gaza and all was well with the shipping lanes open 

1967 - Egypt again closes the straits of Tiran to Israeli ships. Israel invaded again, including Egypt controlled Gaza in Six Day War. Egypt, Syria, Jordan all joined in to kill Israel but lost. Israel gained control of Gaza from Egypt and West Bank and Golam from Jordan. 

1970 - Palestinian militants terrorized Israel with bombings from south Lebanon. 
1972 - Palestinian militants murdered Israeli Olympians in Munich 

1978 - Palestinians murder civilians in Coastal Road massacre. Israel attacks Palestinians militants in South Lebanon in response.

1982 - PLO continued attacking Israel from South Lebanon. So Israel invaded in Lebanon War. Israel won and Palestinians lost. PLO went to Tripoli

1987 - First Antifada. Palestinians were mad they were still “occupied” or “conquered” so they began terrorizing Israel with riots, assaults, and suicide bombings 

1993 - Oslo accords. Israel allowed PLO to return to West Bank and Gaza in an effort for peace. They formed PA. They ruled Gaza and West Bank

2000 - Second Intifada. Palestinians decided they’re still mad at Israel and continued to assault and bomb them

2006 - Hamas, a terrorist group, wins a majority in Gaza elections. Fights a civil war with Fatah, killing opposition, and rejects Oslo accords which basis tenet is Israel has a right to exist and to disavow violence aka peace 

It seems like the entire history is Israel offering peace, and Palestinians rejecting peace in order to kill Israelis 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nivek 16945]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

It’s not bullshit to admit that we aren’t experts in urban warfare and combat. It’s bullshit to pretend you or anyone else here has an answer. It’s bullshit that you can’t wrap your head around the idea that people can simply think we should try to preserve life as much as humanly possible.

You are dehumanizing them. You’re basically saying is civilians die because Hamas uses them as shields well thems the breaks. At least it will be Hamas’ fault. 
 

I don’t give a fuck who’s at fault. Let’s do our damndest to find a solution that results in fewer dead civilians.

So wait, we are not experts, but we should find a solution?  And it should be magical insofar that it denies the realities and the illogical irrational behavior of humans.   

I appreciate the emboldened part too.  We should sing kumbaya and just forget what happened.  Sorry lady, your infant was decapitated, but hobbes2702 doesn't think we should focus on that.  He is looking at this from a higher order thinking.  Logical, like Mr. Spock.   Or maybe we can just ignore the civilians that supported and provided cover for the war machine.  

Or maybe you should check out what the innocent Russian soldiers' wives said about raping Ukrainian women.   Just because someone is a civilian, it doesn't make them innocent or not a target.   

[hobbes2702 13045]

9 minutes ago, Nivek said:

So wait, we are not experts, but we should find a solution?  And it should be magical insofar that it denies the realities and the illogical irrational behavior of humans.   

I appreciate the emboldened part too.  We should sing kumbaya and just forget what happened.  Sorry lady, your infant was decapitated, but hobbes2702 doesn't think we should focus on that.  He is looking at this from a higher order thinking.  Logical, like Mr. Spock.   Or maybe we can just ignore the civilians that supported and provided cover for the war machine.  

Or maybe you should check out what the innocent Russian soldiers' wives said about raping Ukrainian women.   Just because someone is a civilian, it doesn't make them innocent or not a target.   

The royal we man, you know the editorial…

(I’m aware that’s the wrong usage of the phrase. I don’t mean we as in people on this site)

The rest of your post I’m just not really gonna get into again. The fewer people needlessly die the better.

Edited October 12, 2023 by hobbes2702

[Anastasis 23475]

5 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

 

BREAKING: Biden tells heads of the U.S. Jewish organizations: “It matters that Americans see what is happening. I have doing this a long time – I never thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children”

 

And here is the walkback:

 

 

 

The thing is, unlike most of the social media accounts you quote, you actually know what atrocity propaganda is, and what purpose it serves. There are plenty of atrocities taking place right now. Legit beheadings on film, dead elderly shot up in their laundry room, dead babies being pulled out of rubble and cribs in hospitals full of dead children. And there may very well turn up evidence of beheaded babies, for christ's fucking sake. But you're running some extreme and inflammatory claims at the tip of the spear in real time, and you know exactly what it is intended to stoke. Same play as W's Iraqi babies in incubators story. Can you just act for a second like there are actually some of us that have an attention span longer than a decade.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Anastasis

[Brisketexan 105154]

What you're missing is that the average household income in Gaza is less than $600/mo.  How is Joe Palestinian supposed to feed his family, keep a roof over their head AND save $5,000?

He should probably stop buying avocado toast and Starbucks.

[UpperWestside 6169]

I have no idea exactly how this latest act in their never ending war with each other goes other than a whole bunch of people are going to die. Many of them will be children solely because so much of the Palestinian population is so young. That is the worst part to me. Children who are in the infancy of their life will die. Many will be Palestinian children, but we have already read about scores of Israeli children that have perished in this latest flare-up. The deaths of the children just really stick with me. We all get just one chance at life and for so many to end before they have experienced much of anything is so incredibly sad. 

[brakeman 28375]

 

atrocities on both sides= you just suck at math 

[bolverk 29684]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

1993 - Oslo accords. Israel allowed PLO to return to West Bank and Gaza in an effort for peace. They formed PA. They ruled Gaza and West Bank

2000 - Second Intifada. Palestinians decided they’re still mad at Israel and continued to assault and bomb them

A lot of you guys keep posting that it was the Palestinians' fault for the breakdown of the Oslo Accords, but that remains a hotly debated topic.

Here, I offer an article appearing in Foreign Policy magazine from less than a month ago written by an American who was present throughout the negotiations. It's worth reading in full, but it boils down to the continued expansion of Israeli settlements counter to the spirit of the initial agreement, continued violence by both sides, and the lack of a credible intermediary. 

Some relevant passages:

Quote

1. Interim can’t be final.
For Palestinians, that final outcome was an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital. For Israelis, it was TBD—to be determined. Driven by domestic politics and their own doubts about the Palestinians’ capacity for statehood and what it might mean for Israeli security, neither Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin nor his successor Shimon Peres were prepared to commit to any agreed outcome—even as an aspirational vision. You can look long and hard for the term “Palestinian state” in the Oslo documents, but you won’t find it. It would take another half-dozen years before the idea of statehood worked its way into Israel’s negotiating assumptions. Not until 2001, as U.S. President Bill Clinton left office, did the United States formally and publicly articulate support for a two-state solution.

With no clear end goal to work toward, the process floundered. By 1999, not a single Oslo deadline had been met. Negotiations on permanent status had begun three times but produced nothing, and neither Israelis nor Palestinians could see where things were headed. But both had grown weary and wary of a seemingly never-ending interim process punctuated by Palestinian terrorist attacks and Israeli settlement expansion.

2. Leaders—and not just their negotiators—have to be willing to yield.
Rabin had also locked himself into a public commitment not to dismantle any settlements during the interim period, and to do so only as part of a permanent status negotiations. He would later regret that decision when, in the wake of an Israeli settler massacring 29 Palestinians in Hebron, he resisted pressures from within his own government to remove the 400 settlers living there who required a large Israeli military presence to protect them. Rabin was fearful of reaction from the right-wing opposition and worried that Yasser Arafat, then the chairman of the PLO, would exploit the crisis to push for an international presence in the West Bank. Yet Rabin’s unwillingness or inability to limit, let alone halt, settlement expansion diminished Palestinian willingness to implement their own commitments under Oslo.

[Arafat] had come a long way, but could never quite make the transition from the mentality of a revolutionary leader committed to armed struggle and the use of violence against Israel to the world of compromise and diplomacy that would have been required, together with a foresighted Israeli leader, to bring about the end of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

3. The occupier and the occupied aren’t equals in negotiations.
The asymmetry of power was clear: As the occupier, Israel wielded the power of the strong—the capacity to impose its will on the Palestinians. This took the form of everything from settlement construction, land confiscation, and housing demolitions to closures of the West Bank cities and towns (preventing travel), and targeted killings. Settlement construction was especially egregious, with 115,700 Israeli settlers residing in the West Bank and Gaza at the end of 1993; by mid-1999, that number had risen to 176,973.

Palestinians, on the other hand, wielded the power of the weak: terrorism. As the weaker party in the negotiations, Palestinian leaders rationalized the use of terror and violence and the armed struggle against Israel as an acceptable instrument to fight back against Israeli occupation and the ongoing settlement expansion. Even though most of the terrorist attacks in the early Oslo years were carried out by Hamas and Palestine Islamic Jihad outside of the Palestinian Authority’s control, Arafat—who never abandoned the use violence as potential tool—could or would not do more to prevent terrorist attacks or arrest the perpetrators.

4. A mediator must be present—and credible.
From Oslo on, with Rabin’s pro-peace successor Peres and especially with Ehud Barak at the Camp David summit, Clinton didn’t want to jam up Israeli prime ministers. Far too often, Americans—myself included—essentially acted as Israel’s lawyer. What this meant in practice was a disposition favoring Israel on process, substance, tight coordination, and no surprises.

I’ll never forget: On the fourth day of the summit, I saw the late Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat on one of the walking paths. He stopped and asked when the Palestinians were going to receive the draft of a paper that we were preparing on the core issues. I said it was taking more time to prepare than we thought. Smiling, Saeb replied, “Aaron, you’ve given it to the Israelis first, haven’t you?” I smiled back and kept on walking.

 

 

But let's take a look at the Mitchell Report in its original. Here's a section outlining some of the reasons for its failure:

Quote

 

Divergent Perspectives: During the last seven months, these views have hardened into
divergent realities. Each side views the other as having acted in bad faith; as having
turned the optimism of Oslo into the suffering and grief of victims and their loved ones.
In their statements and actions, each side demonstrates a perspective that fails to
recognize any truth in the perspective of the other.

The Palestinian Perspective: For the Palestinian side, "Madrid" and "Oslo" heralded the
prospect of a State, and guaranteed an end to the occupation and a resolution of
outstanding matters within an agreed time frame. Palestinians are genuinely angry at the
continued growth of settlements and at their daily experiences of humiliation and
disruption as a result of Israel's presence in the Palestinian territories. Palestinians see
settlers and settlements in their midst not only as violating the spirit of the Oslo process,
but also as an application of force in the form of Israel's overwhelming military
superiority, which sustains and protects the settlements.

The Interim Agreement provides that "the two parties view the West Bank and Gaza as a
single territorial unit, the integrity and status of which will be preserved during the
interim period." Coupled with this, the Interim Agreement's prohibition on taking steps
which may prejudice permanent status negotiations denies Israel the right to continue its
illegal expansionist settlement policy. In addition to the Interim Agreement, customary
international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention, prohibits Israel (as an
occupying power) from establishing settlements in occupied territory pending an end to
the conflict.17 

The PLO alleges that Israeli political leaders "have made no secret of the fact that the
Israeli interpretation of Oslo was designed to segregate the Palestinians in noncontiguous enclaves, surrounded by Israeli military-controlled borders, with settlements
and settlement roads violating the territories' integrity."18 According to the PLO, "In the
seven years since the [Declaration of Principles], the settler population in the West Bank,
excluding East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, has doubled to 200,000, and the settler
population in East Jerusalem has risen to 170,000. Israel has constructed approximately
30 new settlements, and expanded a number of existing ones to house these new
settlers."19

The PLO also claims that the GOI has failed to comply with other commitments such as
the further withdrawal from the West Bank and the release of Palestinian prisoners. In
addition, Palestinians expressed frustration with the impasse over refugees and the
deteriorating economic circumstances in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The Israeli Perspective: From the GOI perspective, the expansion of settlement activity
and the taking of measures to facilitate the convenience and safety of settlers do not
prejudice the outcome of permanent status negotiations.

Israel understands that the Palestinian side objects to the settlements in the West Bank
and the Gaza Strip. Without prejudice to the formal status of the settlements, Israel
accepts that the settlements are an outstanding issue on which there will have to be
agreement as part of any permanent status resolution between the sides. This point was
acknowledged and agreed upon in the Declaration of Principles of 13 September 1993 as
well as in other agreements between the two sides. There has in fact been a good deal of
discussion on the question of settlements between the two sides in the various
negotiations toward a permanent status agreement.20

Indeed, Israelis point out that at the Camp David summit and during subsequent talks the
GOI offered to make significant concessions with respect to settlements in the context of
an overall agreement.

Security, however, is the key GOI concern. The GOI maintains that the PLO has
breached its solemn commitments by continuing the use of violence in the pursuit of
political objectives. "Israel's principal concern in the peace process has been security.
This issue is of overriding importance... ecurity is not something on which Israel will
bargain or compromise. The failure of the Palestinian side to comply with both the letter
and spirit of the security provisions in the various agreements has long been a source of
disturbance in Israel."21

According to the GOI, the Palestinian failure takes several forms: institutionalized antiIsrael, anti-Jewish incitement; the release from detention of terrorists; the failure to
control illegal weapons; and the actual conduct of violent operations, ranging from the
insertion of riflemen into demonstrations to terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. The GOI
maintains that the PLO has explicitly violated its renunciation of terrorism and other acts
of violence,22 thereby significantly eroding trust between the parties. The GOI perceives "a thread, implied but nonetheless clear, that runs throughout the Palestinian submissions. It is that Palestinian violence against Israel and Israelis is somehow explicable,
understandable, legitimate."23

 

Pointing fingers at only the Palestinians and say "oh, they were given a shot and turned it down" is wholly biased and simplistic. Don't let your anger at Hamas about this despicable massacre cloud your judgment of how we got here.

 

Oh, and see the numbers of settlers in the West Bank cited above from 20 years ago? My question on the security concerns of Israel that still remains unaddressed: If the Israelis are so worried about violence perpetrated by Palestinians is so great, why do they continue to move closer and closer to them? Because from my perspective, it sure seems like they're slowly, incrementally trying to take the whole thing.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/human-rights-council-hears-that-700000-israeli-settlers-are-living-illegally-in-the-occupied-west-bank-meeting-summary-excerpts/

Quote

The Human Rights Council this afternoon heard the presentation of a report by the High Commissioner for Human Rights which stated that the current Israeli plan to double the settler population in the occupied Syrian Golan by 2027 was unprecedented, and that 700,000 Israeli settlers are living illegally in the occupied West Bank.

Christian Salazar Volkmann, Director of the Field Operations and Technical Cooperation Division of the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, presented the High Commissioner’s report on Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan, which analysed developments related to settlement advancement over the last decade. From 2012 to 2022, the population of Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, had grown from 520,000 to over 700,000. These settlers lived illegally in 279 Israeli settlements across the occupied West Bank, including 14 settlements in the occupied East Jerusalem, with a total population of more than 229,000 people. At least 147 of these settlements were outposts, illegal even under Israeli domestic law.

The report documented a correlation between the expansion of outposts and settler attacks against Palestinians. During the past decade, the United Nations had verified 3,372 violent incidents by settlers, injuring 1,222 Palestinians. Last year, settler violence reached the highest levels ever recorded by the United Nations. Israel had failed to investigate and prosecute crimes against Palestinians committed by settlers and Israeli forces.

[bolverk 29684]

Fucking hell. I don't know why there are strike-throughs on the second half of that post, and it won't allow me to take them out when I try to edit. AND it won't let the reader expand the quotes. Just click the links.

Edited October 12, 2023 by bolverk

[Neonmoon 38129]

I don’t think it’s wholly biased and overly simplistic. Israel allowed a defeated enemy (PLO) to return to Gaza and the West Bank. In exchange, they asked for no more violence. The PLO, now regrouped as the PA, could not stop the terrorist attacks. Palestinians point to settlements to absolve terrorism. Which again, is not the only way to deal with occupation or oppression. 

[G650 14263]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

He should probably stop buying avocado toast and Starbucks.

I just walked in for a tall Pike Place, so this hits close to home

[GW Hayduke 1953]

7 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

BREAKING: Biden tells heads of the U.S. Jewish organizations: “It matters that Americans see what is happening. I have doing this a long time – I never thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children”

 

And here is the walkback:

 

 

 

The thing is, unlike most of the social media accounts you quote, you actually know what atrocity propaganda is, and what purpose it serves. There are plenty of atrocities taking place right now. Legit beheadings on film, dead elderly shot up in their laundry room, dead babies being pulled out of rubble and cribs in hospitals full of dead children. And there may very well turn up evidence of beheaded babies, for christ's fucking sake. But you're running some extreme and inflammatory claims at the tip of the spear in real time, and you know exactly what it is intended to stoke. Same play as W's Iraqi babies in incubators story. Can you just act for a second like there are actually some of us that have an attention span longer than a decade.

I hate that 956 Worldwide's irresponsibility with information has led me to upvoting Antastasis. What the fuck, man. Get your shit together.

[G650 14263]

Lol

[chainsaw 9870]

NSIAP

 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

There seems to still be a lot of confusion about the baby beheading news. I don’t dare post the cnn article over in DT which states Israeli officials can’t confirm it. It is bizarre that this story cannot be confirmed. Less bizarre is the same people who use this story as validation that Palestinians are “animals” also are dismissive of its relevance because of all the other horrors that happened on Saturday. I guess it’s my liberal arts degree that allows me to be horrified by the attacks but also want to have accurate and honest reporting.

[BrickHorn 18237]

2 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

There seems to still be a lot of confusion about the baby beheading news. I don’t dare post the cnn article over in DT which states Israeli officials can’t confirm it. It is bizarre that this story cannot be confirmed. Less bizarre is the same people who use this story as validation that Palestinians are “animals” also are dismissive of its relevance because of all the other horrors that happened on Saturday. I guess it’s my liberal arts degree that allows me to be horrified by the attacks but also want to have accurate and honest reporting.

It’s like no one on DT has ever heard of a war before. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

It’s like no one on DT has ever heard of a war before. 

Exactly.

And now AI is possibly making things even murkier or deliberate misinformation.

As a photographer (not my day job), I am extremely reluctant to see a photo on social media and accept it as real/true. Now, more than ever, there needs to be serious source validation and citation.

[jimmyjazz 45976]

If I'm a parent, the means by which my child was brutally murdered matters much less to me than the fact my child was brutally murdered.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

If I'm a parent, the means by which my child was brutally murdered matters much less to me than the fact my child was brutally murdered.

Of course. But that isn’t what we are talking about. 

[jimmyjazz 45976]

Just now, Patricio Swayze said:

Of course. But that isn’t what we are talking about. 

I know, it's more of a general reaction to the sub-plot.

[texasdago 7575]

[Biff Tannen 45691]

So did we figure it all out on this thread yet?

[gsoda3 3263]

56 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

There seems to still be a lot of confusion about the baby beheading news. I don’t dare post the cnn article over in DT which states Israeli officials can’t confirm it. It is bizarre that this story cannot be confirmed. Less bizarre is the same people who use this story as validation that Palestinians are “animals” also are dismissive of its relevance because of all the other horrors that happened on Saturday. I guess it’s my liberal arts degree that allows me to be horrified by the attacks but also want to have accurate and honest reporting.

the jerusalem post is confirming it.