Israel

[Nivek 16930]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

There seems to still be a lot of confusion about the baby beheading news. I don’t dare post the cnn article over in DT which states Israeli officials can’t confirm it. It is bizarre that this story cannot be confirmed. Less bizarre is the same people who use this story as validation that Palestinians are “animals” also are dismissive of its relevance because of all the other horrors that happened on Saturday. I guess it’s my liberal arts degree that allows me to be horrified by the attacks but also want to have accurate and honest reporting.

Whether a child was decapitated from automatic rifle gunfire at close range or if they were put on a tree stump and someone brought out an executioner's labrys, it makes no difference.   

Another silly poster shared some UN graph on the number disparity between injured or killed.   The take-a-way at a glance is that one side is much much better at combat.  Maybe the stupids seems to think that war should be symmetrical in casualties.   Imagine a commander saying , "hey boys, the enemy is going to try to take our hill and machine gun nest.  But in the interest of being fair, since there are only 4 of us, let's not kill more than 4 or 5 of their guys."    

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Nivek

[bernorange 8361]

Quote

DAMASCUS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Syria said Israeli forces launched simultaneous missile attacks on the airports in its capital Damascus and the northern city of Aleppo on Thursday, damaging the runways and putting both hubs out of service.

A Syrian military source cited by state news agency SANA said "bursts of missiles" hit the two airports at the same time, ...
...
Sources have said strikes on the airports are intended to disrupt Iranian supply lines to Syria, where Tehran's influence has grown since it began supporting President Bashar al-Assad in the civil war that started in 2011.

Thursday's strikes came a day before Iran's foreign minister, Hossein Amirabdollahian, was due to visit Syria.
...
On Tuesday, Israeli troops fired artillery and mortar shells towards Syria after rockets from southern Syria hit Israeli positions across the border.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/syria-state-tv-says-israeli-attack-targets-aleppo-damascus-airports-2023-10-12/

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

the jerusalem post is confirming it.  
 

Thanks.

Details and accuracy are important.

This site has a lot of folks that love history. Reading about, discussing it. We have had some cool threads with book or other media suggestions. No history fan wants to read a fictitious account or even an inaccurate account of an event. I don’t think it’s too much to expect for those same standards be applied in real time as humanly possible. There are a lot of folks on this site that also should read the link brickhorn posted above.

['stache 21815]

47 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

If I'm a parent, the means by which my child was brutally murdered matters much less to me than the fact my child was brutally murdered.

Seriously, it's such a bizarre point of focus. Like children crushed to death under the rubble of a bombed apartment building or starved to death by blockade is somehow less tragic? 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

9 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

What will it take for the atrocity propaganda people to acknowledge it, though?

A complete reprogramming of our society and an intense campaign to to root out propaganda, holding distribution channels accountable for knowingly spreading misinformation, etc.

But none of that will happen. We've crossed the rubicon and now live in a world where the notion of truth and reality hold no value for us as a society.

edited to add: we need to want a society that seeks knowledge, questions things and yearns to understand things. But the powers that be have decided an uneducated, distracted, mindless society is better. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

[RomaVicta 29907]

11 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

BREAKING: Biden tells heads of the U.S. Jewish organizations: “It matters that Americans see what is happening. I have doing this a long time – I never thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children”

 

And here is the walkback:

 

 

 

The thing is, unlike most of the social media accounts you quote, you actually know what atrocity propaganda is, and what purpose it serves. There are plenty of atrocities taking place right now. Legit beheadings on film, dead elderly shot up in their laundry room, dead babies being pulled out of rubble and cribs in hospitals full of dead children. And there may very well turn up evidence of beheaded babies, for christ's fucking sake. But you're running some extreme and inflammatory claims at the tip of the spear in real time, and you know exactly what it is intended to stoke. Same play as W's Iraqi babies in incubators story. Can you just act for a second like there are actually some of us that have an attention span longer than a decade.

Here in Idiot World, we have the press chasing the story of whether or not babies were beheaded. Were we lied to? Is it propaganda? Clearly the issue here is the fate of those babies' heads and people lying about it!

If it turns out that no babies were beheaded, so what? It's a fucking minute detail against everything that we know happened during the assault. Will anyone really say, "It wasn't as bad as we thought. No baby beheadings."

The facts of what happened are enough. The response to those facts has been moral outrage and disgust. That's good for business if you're the press, a politician, or a right wing rabble rouser. They need those baby heads to squeeze record levels of emotion from their audiences and voters. They've just about promised baby heads. This whole thing will be an outrage letdown without those baby heads.

In some ways, this is heaven for the parties mentioned above. I can't even argue that we should focus on possible solutions in a discussion of policy because nobody in the world can think of one. Everybody's not stupid; it's just a Gordian Knot of aspects and issues.

Rabble rousers can keep the emotional flames going ranting about ever harsher measures one should take against the dirty Arabs. CNN can program endless panel shows rehashing every useless aspect of analysis.

The whole bloody sundae won't be complete without that baby head cherry. Sorry, whole dead babies aren't quite enough this week.

Ghoulish times. 

[gsoda3 3261]

10 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Seriously, it's such a bizarre point of focus. Like children crushed to death under the rubble of a bombed apartment building or starved to death by blockade is somehow less tragic? 

to the parent, no it won't matter much.  in the eyes of the rest of the world it matters.  imagining a terrorist seeing the eyes of a baby in the background of his sight picture while looking down his iron sights and pulling the trigger vs an indiscriminate crush of rubble from bombing a building pulls differently on the heartstrings of world opinion.  

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

18 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

A complete reprogramming of our society and an intense campaign to to root out propaganda, holding distribution channels accountable for knowingly spreading misinformation, etc.

But none of that will happen. We've crossed the rubicon and now live in a world where the notion of truth and reality hold no value for us as a society.

edited to add: we need to want a society that seeks knowledge, questions things and yearns to understand things. But the powers that be have decided an uneducated, distracted, mindless society is better. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Speaking of...love this article title:

At far-right roadshow, Trump is God's 'anointed one,' QAnon is king, and 'everything you believe is right'

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

Reached out to one of my oldest friends to let him know I was thinking of him. Got this text back. Fuck. 

[mchookem 16336]

21 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Here in Idiot World, we have the press chasing the story of whether or not babies were beheaded. Were we lied to? Is it propaganda? Clearly the issue here is the fate of those babies' heads and people lying about it!

If it turns out that no babies were beheaded, so what? It's a fucking minute detail against everything that we know happened during the assault. Will anyone really say, "It wasn't as bad as we thought. No baby beheadings."

The facts of what happened are enough. The response to those facts has been moral outrage and disgust. That's good for business if you're the press, a politician, or a right wing rabble rouser. They need those baby heads to squeeze record levels of emotion from their audiences and voters. They've just about promised baby heads. This whole thing will be an outrage letdown without those baby heads.

In some ways, this is heaven for the parties mentioned above. I can't even argue that we should focus on possible solutions in a discussion of policy because nobody in the world can think of one. Everybody's not stupid; it's just a Gordian Knot of aspects and issues.

Rabble rousers can keep the emotional flames going ranting about ever harsher measures one should take against the dirty Arabs. CNN can program endless panel shows rehashing every useless aspect of analysis.

The whole bloody sundae won't be complete without that baby head cherry. Sorry, whole dead babies aren't quite enough this week.

Ghoulish times. 

Cormac McCarthy would be proud.

[gernblansten 3197]

If the baby beheading story is definitively proven to be false, one side of supporters will say it doesn't matter and the other side will say it does.

If the baby beheading story is definitively proven to be true, one side of supporters will say it doesn't matter and the other side will say it does.

No one is changing their underlying opinion on the Middle East quagmire because of this distinction in child death. Some portion of the supporters on the "wrong side" of the definitive proof wouldn't believe the definitive proof anyway. This thread is no different than people holding positions on many divisive issues. Folks on either end of the spectrum who are sure one side is right and the other is wrong and a large group in the middle that recognizes all the grey between the sections of black and white.   

[SydneyCarton 48106]

40 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

What will it take for the atrocity propaganda people to acknowledge it, though?

Just ask Anastasis directly. 

33 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Seriously, it's such a bizarre point of focus. Like children crushed to death under the rubble of a bombed apartment building or starved to death by blockade is somehow less tragic? 

I think the intent and mentality invovled absolutely matters, and is worth consideration. A done pilot executing an order from a TV screen my have nightmares and bad thoughts about some of the things he's done. But someone who willfully, gleefully decaptiates a child at point blank range indicates an entirely different mentality, and one more dangerous. Just as a hitman putting 2 in the back of someone's head is not the same as torturaing someone to death over the course of hours. 

It's equally tragic for the victim, obviously. But the scale of consideration and what it illustrates about the perpetrator are entirely different, and worth noting, in my opinion. 

[Smax 3800]

16 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Should I retort with dead Palestinian children from the last 16 years?   I already gave you links and you just said "that's nice but I'm all about blah" and carried on with your own takes and the usual Brisket tough guy keyboard warrior bullshit.  You refuse to educate yourself on this matter, and you're not worth arguing with.  You'd rather bloviate here then do some fucking reading.  Which is a shame.  I have enjoyed some of your posts in other threads.  But this thread has me questioning who I 'hang out with' online quite honestly.  Not just you to be fair.  

 

 

Sure not like we haven't been down this road before... or I could just save the time and explain how you'll post some images and stories of atrocities the the Israelis have done that will be replied with atrocities that hamas and or hezbollah has done. This will go back for thousands of years and here we are

[BrickHorn 18234]

22 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

If it turns out that no babies were beheaded, so what?

Because, as strange as it is, that detail has real impact. The mechanics of exactly how a baby is murdered for some reason matter to us. It’s weird and illogical and we can all sit here and say it shouldn’t matter. But it does. For whatever reason, certain murder mechanics elevate our outrage. 

And that’s why these stories are so common in the fog of war and why they proliferate. “They beheaded babies” or “They speared babies with bayonets” inspires far more disgust and hatred than “They shot babies.” And in these kinds of situations, people cling to the worst. They want to be angry. They want the world to be binary. It’s in some ways a relief to know that the people their side is about to murder en masse are more animal than human. 

The point is: people should be cautious about these reports, especially early in a conflict. They may turn out to be true, but too often the exact same stories have proven false and have had negative consequences, including increased skepticism to verified atrocities. 

[G650 14256]

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Because, as strange as it is, that detail has real impact. The mechanics of exactly how a baby is murdered for some reason matter to us. It’s weird and illogical and we can all sit here and say it shouldn’t matter. But it does. For whatever reason, certain murder mechanics elevate our outrage. 
And that’s why these stories are so common in the fog of war and why they proliferate. “They beheaded babies” or “They speared babies with bayonets” inspires far more disgust and hatred than “They shot babies.” And in these kinds of situations, people cling to the worst. They want to be angry. They want the world to be binary. It’s in some ways a relief to know that the people their side is about to murder en masse are more animal than human. 
The point is: people should be cautious about these reports, especially early in a conflict. They may turn out to be true, but too often the exact same stories have proven false and have had negative consequences, including increased skepticism to verified atrocities. 

This is better worded than what I was trying to get at.

Hopefully no one here thinks neither you nor I aren’t horrified by what has happened.

[wildcat09 29354]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Whether a child was decapitated from automatic rifle gunfire at close range or if they were put on a tree stump and someone brought out an executioner's labrys, it makes no difference.   

Another silly poster shared some UN graph on the number disparity between injured or killed.   The take-a-way at a glance is that one side is much much better at combat.  Maybe the stupids seems to think that war should be symmetrical in casualties.   Imagine a commander saying , "hey boys, the enemy is going to try to take our hill and machine gun nest.  But in the interest of being fair, since there are only 4 of us, let's not kill more than 4 or 5 of their guys."    

 

It makes no difference to the child or the child's family, obviously. But the more sensational, the more effectively it can be used for propagandistic purposes. 

Edit: Brickhorn explained better than the rest of us. He is wise.

Edited October 12, 2023 by wildcat09

[6th Street 6400]

 

Wtf kind of tradition is this?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/5-arrested-for-spitting-at-christians-in-jerusalem-police-minister-its-not-criminal/amp/

[Huckleberry 32860]

The story absolutely matters, the very existence of atrocity propaganda proves that. It's not about how the babies died, it's about the humanity of the killers. As stated above, bombing a building that babies happened to be in is a world apart from beheading them. 

Convincing the public that the killers were evil monsters rather than just callous or thoughtless assholes greatly changes public support for war and your level of retaliation. 

None of the above has anything to do with whether or not this story is true. Just that it's wrong to say it doesn't matter. 

Dammit, called into a meeting before I finished and posted. This has obviously been covered. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Huckleberry

[HenryJames 66052]

I would go back in time and behead baby Hitler.

[wildcat09 29354]

I wonder how Daily Texan's Trump fans who also support Israel are taking Trump's praising of Hamas and Hezbollah.

[SydneyCarton 48106]

8 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

I would go back in time and behead baby Hitler.

I'd give him a bunch of Andrew Tate podcasts that were cast on records. Probably would fix everything. 

[C-Man 27227]

3 hours ago, chainsaw said:

NSIAP

 

You posted an 83-minute long movie -- is there a particular part you're bringing to our attention. I ain't got time to watch something that long.

 

2 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

There seems to still be a lot of confusion about the baby beheading news. I don’t dare post the cnn article over in DT which states Israeli officials can’t confirm it. It is bizarre that this story cannot be confirmed. Less bizarre is the same people who use this story as validation that Palestinians are “animals” also are dismissive of its relevance because of all the other horrors that happened on Saturday. I guess it’s my liberal arts degree that allows me to be horrified by the attacks but also want to have accurate and honest reporting.

As a former journalist, albeit on the less serious sports side, the truth matters (or it should -- it used to anyways). We deal with so much deliberate misinformation these days it's insane. Most of us here are at least cognizant enough to question things and/or seek out what really happened. We're naturally skeptical. Our Boomer parents are not. They're so easily manipulated and that usually comes from the extreme right these days. They can't govern for shit but, man, can they scare old people stupid.

 

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Whether a child was decapitated from automatic rifle gunfire at close range or if they were put on a tree stump and someone brought out an executioner's labrys, it makes no difference.   

Another silly poster shared some UN graph on the number disparity between injured or killed.   The take-a-way at a glance is that one side is much much better at combat.  Maybe the stupids seems to think that war should be symmetrical in casualties.   Imagine a commander saying , "hey boys, the enemy is going to try to take our hill and machine gun nest.  But in the interest of being fair, since there are only 4 of us, let's not kill more than 4 or 5 of their guys."    

 

It matters for the reason that @BrickHorn and @SydneyCarton both say above. Yes, the end result is the same. The baby is dead and that's tragic and shocking. The method of death absolutely speaks to the depravity of the killer. Personally, it's more important for me to learn if decapitation was the cause of death, a result of high-power firepower doing what it does against smaller targets or was done post-mortem. The latter is pretty fucked up but WAY different than if they're slitting babies throats and then cutting the head clean off as the means of death. Don't ask me why -- it just is.

[C-Man 27227]

I'll add that the "baby beheading" absolutely matters to Bibi and his PR team -- because it's a gruesome fact that scores them "style" points with the world. "See the animals we're forced to deal with here?"

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 minutes ago, C-Man said:

I'll add that the "baby beheading" absolutely matters to Bibi and his PR team -- because it's a gruesome fact that scores them "style" points with the world. "See the animals we're forced to deal with here?"

That's a double-edged sword. He touts himself as the best choice for a secure Israel and he failed miserably at protecting those babies.

He's going to take the fall for this intelligence failure.

[SydneyCarton 48106]

1 minute ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

That's a double-edged sword. He touts himself as the best choice for a secure Israel and he failed miserably at protecting those babies.

He's going to take the fall for this intelligence failure.

People don't pay attention to double-edged swords when in the middle of a conflict. They rally around what they have. Whether he'll be called to task after this fucking nightmare unfolds remains to be seen. I'm skeptical, but I'm hoping he and his shit party are ripped to shreds. Because he NEEDS to take the fall for this failure, as well as the realization that he was utilizing Hamas to help stay in power in the fucking first place. 

[chainsaw 9868]

14 minutes ago, C-Man said:

I ain't got time to watch something that long.

Then don't. You're not the only person here.

[Chopper 17235]

13 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

The royal we man, you know the editorial…

(I’m aware that’s the wrong usage of the phrase. I don’t mean we as in people on this site)

The rest of your post I’m just not really gonna get into again. The fewer people needlessly die the better.

Needlessly being the key word.

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Another silly poster shared some UN graph on the number disparity between injured or killed.   The take-a-way at a glance is that one side is much much better at combat.  Maybe the stupids seems to think that war should be symmetrical in casualties.   Imagine a commander saying , "hey boys, the enemy is going to try to take our hill and machine gun nest.  But in the interest of being fair, since there are only 4 of us, let's not kill more than 4 or 5 of their guys."   

I don't recall seeing anything in the graph about the Iranian-Hezbollah bombing of the UN Peacekeeping Barracks, murdering 241 US and 58 French military personnel in their barracks, and injuring many others. Nor do I recall seeing anything about the Iranian-Hezbollah bombing of the US Beirut embassy, murdering 63 people. And it certainly doesn't account for the many murders by Gadaffi-supported Palestinian terrorists, including several strikes in western europe, nor for the many acts of terrorism perpetuated by Iran. My way of agreeing, the numbers in that chart are full of shit.

 

55 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Seriously, it's such a bizarre point of focus. Like children crushed to death under the rubble of a bombed apartment building or starved to death by blockade is somehow less tragic? 

There are 2 blockades of Gaza. I may have missed it but I've only seen your condemnation for one half of the blockade, and your argument that one side must basically disarm to remove the blockade. IF that's true, I'm curious why.

[wildcat09 29354]

Hamas attack exposes deteriorating ties between Russia and Israel:

Quote

Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has long portrayed himself as a friend of Vladimir Putin. In a memoir published during Russia’s war on Ukraine, Netanyahu repeatedly lauded the Russian leader for his intellect and his “particularly friendly attitude” toward the Jewish people.

Putin, too, has over the years cast himself as a loyal ally of the Israeli state, promoting cultural ties and visa-free travel between the two countries.

But after the worst attack on Israel in decades, the much-touted friendship appears to have vanished.

Four days after the start of Hamas’s surprise attack, Putin is yet to call Netanyahu, while the Kremlin has not published a message of condolence to the country, a diplomatic gesture of goodwill that Russia routinely sends out to global leaders following deadly incidents on their soil.

On Tuesday, in his first comments about the Hamas incursion, Putin said the explosion of violence between Israel and the Palestinians showed that US policy had failed in the Middle East and had taken no account of the needs of the Palestinians.

Analysis
Hamas attack exposes deteriorating ties between Russia and Israel
Pjotr Sauer
Vladimir Putin fails to condemn attack on Israel, instead blaming the situation on failed US diplomacy

Thu 12 Oct 2023 00.01 EDT
Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has long portrayed himself as a friend of Vladimir Putin. In a memoir published during Russia’s war on Ukraine, Netanyahu repeatedly lauded the Russian leader for his intellect and his “particularly friendly attitude” toward the Jewish people.

Putin, too, has over the years cast himself as a loyal ally of the Israeli state, promoting cultural ties and visa-free travel between the two countries.

But after the worst attack on Israel in decades, the much-touted friendship appears to have vanished.

Four days after the start of Hamas’s surprise attack, Putin is yet to call Netanyahu, while the Kremlin has not published a message of condolence to the country, a diplomatic gesture of goodwill that Russia routinely sends out to global leaders following deadly incidents on their soil.

On Tuesday, in his first comments about the Hamas incursion, Putin said the explosion of violence between Israel and the Palestinians showed that US policy had failed in the Middle East and had taken no account of the needs of the Palestinians.

“I think that many people will agree with me that this is a vivid example of the failure of United States policy in the Middle East,” Putin said, without acknowledging the gruesome deaths in Israel.

The shift in tone appears to point to a larger rift between the two countries that has taken place since the start of the war in Ukraine.

For years, Putin has sought to cultivate strong ties with Israel while also backing the Palestinian cause, an alliance which stems from the Soviet area.

Israel tries to balance backing for Ukrainians and not offending Russia
Read more
Russia’s delicate diplomacy with Israel appeared to bear fruit when the country refused to participate in western sanctions against Russia, much to the chagrin of Kyiv, which accused Israel of ignoring the suffering of Ukrainian Jews.

But below the surface, there had been signs that the relationship between Russia and Israel was deteriorating over Putin’s claims that he was fighting “neo-Nazism” in Ukraine, while shifting his country into the orbit of Iran, an arch-enemy of Israel.

“The warm relationship [between Russia and Israel] that we have seen for years under Putin has cooled down. We are in a different world now,” said Pinchas Goldschmidt, who served as the chief rabbi of Moscow for nearly 30 years until fleeing the country over his opposition to the Ukraine war.

“Israel has always been careful to maintain a good relationship with Moscow given Russia’s large Jewish community and its influence over Syria,” Goldschmidt said, speaking to the Guardian by phone from Israel. On Saturday he attended the funeral of Yuval Ben Yaakov, an Israeli soldier killed in the fighting, who was the son of another former Moscow rabbi.

Goldschmidt said many in the Jewish community have been left deeply uncomfortable with Putin’s framing of the war, comparing Ukraine’s government to Nazi Germany to justify his invasion of the country.

Last summer, these tensions first spilled over into the public, when Russian officials accused Israel of supporting the “neo-Nazi regime” in Kyiv. The spat was ignited after Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, recycled an antisemitic conspiracy theory claiming that Adolf Hitler “had Jewish blood” – comments that Israel described as “unforgivable and outrageous”.

The Kremlin also cracked down on the Russian branch of the Jewish Agency, a private charity closely affiliated with the Israeli government that helped tens of thousands of highly skilled Jewish Russians to immigrate to Israel.

Perhaps more worryingly for Israel was Moscow’s growing reliance on Iran. Russia, isolated from western markets, has invested heavily in buying Iranian suicide drones to attack Ukrainian cities and civilian infrastructure, while the US has warned that Iran was seeking to acquire large numbers of Russian attack helicopters, warplanes and air defence systems.

As the US pledged to send its own military aid to Israel following the Hamas assault, some pro-Kremlin commentators expressed hope that the Israeli-Hamas war would drain western resources away from Ukraine.

Sergey Mardan, a Russian propagandist and television presenter, wrote: “This mess is beneficial for Russia, because the globalist toad will be distracted from Ukraine and will get busy trying to put out the eternal Middle Eastern fire.”

There was also a sense of glee in Moscow over Israeli military and intelligence blunders, which were presented as a testament of western weakness.

“Apparently, the IDF leadership … is resting on the laurels of long-past victories,” military expert Boris Rozhin, who is close to the Russian forces fighting in Ukraine, wrote on Telegram.

Andrei Soldatov, an expert on Russia’s security services, said such comments “unmasked the acute psychological trauma suffered by the Russian military after its disastrous offensive against Ukraine in the early months of 2022.”

“That loss of global respect is hard to bear for a nation with a proud military tradition. So, the relief offered by Hamas has triggered an avalanche of schadenfreude. Did you laugh at our incompetence? Now it’s our turn,” Soldatov said.

On Russian state television, commentators also ridiculed the tens of thousands of Russian Jews who left for Israel following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in order to avoid mobilisation.

Addressing the Russian parliament on Wednesday, Vyacheslav Volodin, the speaker of the Duma, said that Russians who fled the country to side with Ukraine should be charged with treason and sent to work in mines.

“We’re probably ... talking about mines and we need to find territories where the weather is more constant, where there’s no summer,” Volodin said.

Meanwhile, Ukraine appears to have cast aside its previous grievances with Israel, eager to fill the friendship vacuum left behind by Russia.

In a speech made alongside Nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg, Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, likened Hamas’s assault on Israel this weekend to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and said his people stood with Israel because they understood what it meant to suffer terror attacks.

“The only difference is that there is a terrorist organisation that attacked Israel, and here is a terrorist state that attacked Ukraine,” Zelenskiy said.

The tiny sliver of good news in the current moment is that all of Netanyahu's work to support fascism here, in Israel, and elsewhere has completely fucking blown up in his face.  

[RDCanecutter 26442]

15 hours ago, 6th Street said:

 

 

https://www.mediaite.com/entertainment/justin-bieber-publishes-praying-for-israel-post-featuring-photo-of-destroyed-gaza-block/
 

Justin Bieber doesn't know where he himself is. Let's let him figure that out first, then we can move on to those South American countries like Gaza, Spain, and Israel.

[Chopper 17235]

25 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I wonder how Daily Texan's Trump fans who also support Israel are taking Trump's praising of Hamas and Hezbollah.

Oy vey. I purposefully avoid reading anything he says so I had to look it up!

[Brisketexan 105139]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Hamas attack exposes deteriorating ties between Russia and Israel:

The tiny sliver of good news in the current moment is that all of Netanyahu's work to support fascism here, in Israel, and elsewhere has completely fucking blown up in his face.  

This, for sure.  The central message of Bibi's message is pretty solidly Trumpy: "you guys need my authoritarian fascist bullshit, because I alone can keep Israel safe."

Turns out that a strategy of constantly needing something to base your fear porn off of, and stoking the basis for that fear porn...can end up making the fear porn come true.  But no matter what, do NOT solve that fear porn issue, because if the people aren't in fear anymore, why would they vote for you?

[Brian Fantana 6687]

I'm just rooting for no one to get genocided at this point. Let's all raise a glass and ride this planet to hell!

But seriously, I hate this. I hate everything about all of this. I hate what Hamas did. I hate what Israel and Palestine have been doing to each other with varying degrees of depravity on both sides for decades. I hate that Palestinians turned to a hateful, bloodthirsty, right-wing fundamentalist terror group to lead them even if it was out of pure desperation. Even if most want peace with Israel, it's just a hard thing for most people to get past. I hate that this kind of status quo is seemingly the only way for Israeli Jews to feel "safe". I hate Israel's oppression of and brutality towards Palestinians and their insanely reactionary right-wing government, and how it has led them down the road of an oppressive apartheid that no one wanted.

I hate that the rhetoric and vibe surrounding all of this is so similar to post-9/11.

I hate to see otherwise reasonable people reverting to using racist tropes and calling for millions of people to be exterminated because of things that are, at this point, entirely out of their control. I hate to see those same people piling up justifications so that they can hand wave away genocide when it inevitably happens. I hate to see the same "Do You Condemn?" game being played that was played post-9/11 ad nauseum. I hate to see otherwise reasonable people discuss America's post-9/11 reaction, in comparison to the current situation, as if any of it was good. As if it wasn't insanely reactionary, devastating, and doesn't still have many lasting negative repercussions around the world. I hate that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, will be/are being blamed for the actions of a few, exactly as happened post-9/11.

I hate that it's almost impossible to be seen as objective in this situation no matter which "side" you support and what aspects of the other side you criticize. It's impossible to be critical of anything the Israeli government does without some dipshit accusing you of being anti-semitic,. but that's nothing new in America. It's just ramped up to 11 now. I hate that there is just an absolute flood of misinformation about things going on over there. It serves only to mute/diminish the impact of the real atrocities that are certainly being committed (whether it be by Hamas or the IDF) and it makes reconciliation and fact-finding extraordinarily difficult.

I hate that this is seemingly just another proxy war in a sea of them. The world powers manipulating the downtrodden (yes I'm including Israel here) to secure more power for themselves.

I hate that our arguments on this conflict tend to devolve into "Well what should _____ do then?" because none of us have an adequate answer. I hate, hate, that I don't know how to fix it and neither do you.

[RDCanecutter 26442]

45 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

I would go back in time and behead baby Hitler.

Rookie mistake. Then Baby Non-Hitler grows up instead, takes control of nearly-identical Nazi party, starts WW2, and wins because he's not a one-nut crazy drug-addict. Or maybe he is, but just better at it.

[po elvis 2070]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm just rooting for no one to get genocided at this point. Let's all raise a glass and ride this planet to hell!

But seriously, I hate this. I hate everything about all of this. I hate what Hamas did. I hate what Israel and Palestine have been doing to each other with varying degrees of depravity on both sides for decades. I hate that Palestinians turned to a hateful, bloodthirsty, right-wing fundamentalist terror group to lead them even if it was out of pure desperation. Even if most want peace with Israel, it's just a hard thing for most people to get past. I hate that this kind of status quo is seemingly the only way for Israeli Jews to feel "safe". I hate Israel's oppression of and brutality towards Palestinians and their insanely reactionary right-wing government, and how it has led them down the road of an oppressive apartheid that no one wanted.

I hate that the rhetoric and vibe surrounding all of this is so similar to post-9/11.

I hate to see otherwise reasonable people reverting to using racist tropes and calling for millions of people to be exterminated because of things that are, at this point, entirely out of their control. I hate to see those same people piling up justifications so that they can hand wave away genocide when it inevitably happens. I hate to see the same "Do You Condemn?" game being played that was played post-9/11 ad nauseum. I hate to see otherwise reasonable people discuss America's post-9/11 reaction, in comparison to the current situation, as if any of it was good. As if it wasn't insanely reactionary, devastating, and doesn't still have many lasting negative repercussions around the world. I hate that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, will be/are being blamed for the actions of a few, exactly as happened post-9/11.

I hate that it's almost impossible to be seen as objective in this situation no matter which "side" you support and what aspects of the other side you criticize. It's impossible to be critical of anything the Israeli government does without some dipshit accusing you of being anti-semitic,. but that's nothing new in America. It's just ramped up to 11 now. I hate that there is just an absolute flood of misinformation about things going on over there. It serves only to mute/diminish the impact of the real atrocities that are certainly being committed (whether it be by Hamas or the IDF) and it makes reconciliation and fact-finding extraordinarily difficult.

I hate that this is seemingly just another proxy war in a sea of them. The world powers manipulating the downtrodden (yes I'm including Israel here) to secure more power for themselves.

I hate that our arguments on this conflict tend to devolve into "Well what should _____ do then?" because none of us have an adequate answer. I hate, hate, that I don't know how to fix it and neither do you.

please stop the hate speech.

[Nivek 16930]

26 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Justin Bieber doesn't know where he himself is. Let's let him figure that out first, then we can move on to those South American countries like Gaza, Spain, and Israel.

I'll wait until Ja Rule chimes as the first celebrity to help us all process this. 

[Dbeasy 15051]

An interesting interview of the Palestinian Ambassador to Britain on BBC. it’s on TikTok. I’m sure it can be found elsewhere. 
 

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8rvxc6n/

[jimmyjazz 45952]

Ex-POTUS who disclosed classified information to Russian officials and God knows who else is pontificating about a fever dream he had in which current national defense officials naively pointed out the best way for terrorists to attack Israel.

You couldn't sell that script to Hollywood for a dime . . . up until about 7 years ago.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Not explicitly related to the conflict, but a personal curiosity, how do Saudis view Egyptians? I don’t mean the government, but the people. I don’t think we have either here on surly, but maybe someone has some insight.

[bolverk 29672]

10 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I don’t think it’s wholly biased and overly simplistic. Israel allowed a defeated enemy (PLO) to return to Gaza and the West Bank. In exchange, they asked for no more violence. The PLO, now regrouped as the PA, could not stop the terrorist attacks. Palestinians point to settlements to absolve terrorism. Which again, is not the only way to deal with occupation or oppression. 

I'm not waving away the violence and terrorism of Palestinian groups on Israeli civilians. It's a stupid, inhuman, and ineffective way to combat oppression and occupation perpetrated by the Israeli government. I will also argue that the Israeli government oppressing/occupying Palestinians, along with allowing (encouraging?) the expansion of settlements in the West Bank is also a stupid, inhuman, and ineffective way to combat violence and terrorism perpetrated by Palestinian groups.

[AUS-97HORN 11761]

Cant say I fully agree with this strategy, but maybe, just maybe this is the start of pullback from the younger generation posting shit online without fully understanding what they agreed to post.

Or it turns the Harvard Palestine Posters into pariah's.  

either way, someone has made a very large, very public, fuck around and find out button for every officer of the harvard student groups who co-signed the "its all Israel's fault" statement.

Quote

A “doxxing truck” is driving around the campus of Harvard University with digital billboards that display the names and photos of students who allegedly signed a letter blaming Israel for Hamas’ violent attack that killed more than 1,200 people over the weekend.

Giant video screens hung on the sides and back of the truck display the words “Harvard’s Leading Antisemites” in gothic script over a slideshow of Ivy Leaguers’ headshots and names in bold, red block letters, according to photos on social media.

Nonprofit news watchdog Accuracy in Media was behind the truck, which showed the students involved in the 34 student groups that signed a letter saying Israel is “entirely responsible” for Hamas’ deadly attack on Saturday.

The truck’s surprise appearance around campus on Wednesday “was the first day [of a] multi-day, multi-pronged campaign involving multiple billboards and a variety of other tactics,” Accuracy in Media president Adam Guillette told The Post.

The group deployed the truck because it’s “incredibly important to know who the hateful antisemites are in our society. And it’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences,” Guillette said in an interview with The Post.

 

[G650 14256]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

I hate that our arguments on this conflict tend to devolve into "Well what should _____ do then?" because none of us have an adequate answer.

I expressed that several pages ago but it isn't what most people wanna hear

[bolverk 29672]

16 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

Cant say I fully agree with this strategy, but maybe, just maybe this is the start of pullback from the younger generation posting shit online without fully understanding what they agreed to post.

Or it turns the Harvard Palestine Posters into pariah's.  

either way, someone has made a very large, very public, fuck around and find out button for every officer of the harvard student groups who co-signed the "its all Israel's fault" statement.

 

It's unsavory, but I assume they all used their real names in signing the letter and are all legal adults. Now, if some of them hadn't actually signed it, then, yeah, that's a problem.

[956 Worldwide 34715]

3 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

the jerusalem post is confirming it.  

 

The Israeli PM  account has horrific photos up that I will not repost here.  And yes, “it’s AI” has already been thrown out there.  And, it’s important that even BEFORE this was confirmed by credible outlets, several times, the “atrocity propagandist” people relied only on IDF refusals to confirm as evidence it didn’t happen. I should also put out here that the same folks who accuse Israel of creating propaganda also are ready to entirely rely on IDF non-denials when it suits their agenda. And I’d say it’s important to ask why some actors are so desperate for this not to be true that they look for the smallest crack to turn into a ravine. 
 

A few thoughts on this and atrocity propaganda:

1. Hamas’ social media managers took great care to film, create, and distribute video evidence of their atrocities. I cannot for the life of me understand the scramble to deny them their efforts.  Nearly all of the most shocking and horrifying footage from the first day came from Hamas’ operatives and not Israel or the media.  It only got walked back after they realized the tremendous blowback they received.  
 

2. For @GW Hayduke, it’s fair to criticize me if you think that my info sanitation is not good enough. But if you’re doing it based on Ana’s inputs, really think again because only one of us has a history of engaging in even remotely good faith on this board. 

[henrygandorf 29191]

 

[BrickHorn 18234]

12 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And I’d say it’s important to ask why some actors are so desperate for this not to be true that they look for the smallest crack to turn into a ravine.

You can fuck right off with your bullshit insinuations. Being cautious in the immediate aftermath to not immediately accept as fact stories that mirror well-worn atrocity propaganda doesn’t indicate any agenda other than restraint.  Hamas killed hundreds of innocent people including women and children and that’s a heinous crime. 

['stache 21815]

^^^

Wow, spot on, even Ukraine had shit going on at that time too. 

Edit: The Stewart video that is.

Edited October 12, 2023 by 'stache

[Dahobbs 17534]

1 minute ago, BrickHorn said:

You can fuck right off with your bullshit insinuations. Being cautious in the immediate aftermath to not immediately accept as fact stories that mirror well-worn atrocity propaganda doesn’t indicate any agenda other than restraint.  Hamas killed hundreds of innocent people including women and children and that’s a heinous crime. 

I think the issue here is that you can have both (1) people honestly wanting to weed out inaccurate information in a time when it is prevalent, and (2) people wanting to do anything to hurt the credibility of Israel.  Unfortunately, criticisms directed at (2) can look a lot like criticisms directed at (1). I don't think @956 Worldwide's intent is to denigrate the former and I think he understands the need and want for accurate information. 

[SydneyCarton 48106]

1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

An interesting interview of the Palestinian Ambassador to Britain on BBC. it’s on TikTok. I’m sure it can be found elsewhere. 
 

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8rvxc6n/

I didn't find it that compelling. But the comments were certainly telling.