Israel

[SydneyCarton 47,836]

8 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

No man, I specifically mean you clearly implicitly accusing chainsaw of anti-Semitism because he's critical of the Israeli government.  You're better than Icono, act like it.

I’m not implying anti semitism. It’s a formula he’s used repeatedly on this thread. He explicitly said it’s the jews fault for the massacre that happened to them last week. Those are his own fucking words, and he’s used it basing it on an unproven assumption of his that Israeli government ignored intel. It’s not anti-semitism if Im fucking paraphrasing his own words. 
 

also, you’ve liked multiple posts of mine on both of these threads, all of which have been highly motherfucking critical of Bibi, including one today where I said I wouldn’t be surprised to find out he DID ignore intel because he is that big of a piece of shit. 
 

But that is a damn sight different than saying “The Jews wouldn’t have been massacred it they hadn’t ignored intel about the attack.” That’s not even in the same fucking universe and you fucking should know better. 
 

Icono? Go fuck yourself. 

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

9 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

This is suck bad faith horseshit. I’ve never accused anyone here of anti-semitism. And I’ve never absolved Israel of what is about to happen, nor will I. But the irony of poster who literally blame Palestinians for NOTHING in the last 75 years is fucking rich. At least some posters here are willing to admit it’s a complicate issue and escalated because both sides have done bad things. 
 

You just said America was a worse reformist organization than Hamas, who puts their headquarters in Hospitals. But you accuse other people of being unserious? That is mind blowing. America has fucked up so much shit in this world, as has every country, but it has done some good. Name one good thing Hamas has done. 

You realize that no one is arguing with you, ever, that Palestinians, namely Hamas, have done fucked up, horrible, disgusting acts of terrorism right? Please tell me you realize that. I don't talk about it because there's nothing to argue about. My argument is with the notion that the Israeli government doesn't bear a large part, if not the brunt of responsibility for the current state of affairs. That's it.

Why the fuck would I name one good thing Hamas has done? Fuck Hamas. This is such a ridiculous question and literally has no point but to try and paint me as a terrorist sympathizer.

7 minutes ago, troph said:

It was a rhetorical question. You said the US government is worse than Hamas. 

We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghans in a pointless "retaliation" that was nothing more than a trumped up lie to enrich a handful of American corporations. You tell me if that's better or worse than anything Hamas has done, I guess. And no, this is not me defending Hamas, Hamas is an awful, disgusting, horrific, and violent organization that needs to be wiped out.

e: I'm literally laughing out loud that you and Sydney and others are still making us play the Do You Condemn? game. Like come on, grow up and find a better argument.

4 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Not willing to play that DEFINITION game. By your standard, all human beings are criminals, dishonest, etc. 

The US and Israeli government/militaries have done indefensible awful things. They are not terrorist organizations. 

Yeah, sure, bud. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Edited October 14, 2023 by Brian Fantana

[jimmyjazz 45,538]

One thing I've learned on this thread today:  this place gets mighty salty on bye weeks.

[SydneyCarton 47,836]

7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You realize that no one is arguing with you, ever, that Palestinians, namely Hamas, have done fucked up, horrible, disgusting acts of terrorism right? Please tell me you realize that. I don't talk about it because there's nothing to argue about. My argument is with the notion that the Israeli government doesn't bear a large part, if not the brunt of responsibility for the current state of affairs. That's it.

There is a flip side to this coin. You realize no one here is arguing that the Israeli govt hasn’t done terrible shit, right? I myself have been vocally critical of the same government and Bibi, and ascribed blame. I’ve condemned what I know is about to happen. But the fact that I argue that this isnt all Israel’s fault, and speak against several posters who have explicitly blamed Israel for EVERYTHING, EVER, and I’m a bloodthirsty American who’s going to enjoy watching people getting dismembered, I believe is what you said yesterday. When I type it out, it seems like we agree on a lot. So what’s your fucking issue with what I’m saying? 
 

Quote

Why the fuck would I name one good thing Hamas has done? Fuck Hamas. This is such a ridiculous question and literally has no point but to try and paint me as a terrorist sympathizer.

Because you may despise America, but good things have come from America, along with the horrible. If you think that America is worse than Hamas, then certainly you think they’ve fucking done good. That’s why I asked. It’s not a trap. I’m not painting you as a terrorist sympathizer, I’m trying to understand how the fuck you could compare a government that has done good and bad with a terrorist organization that has done nothing but terrorize. 
 

I don’t think you’re a terrorist sympathizer. At all. I’m legitimately trying to understand one of the most mind blowing comments I’ve ever read on this website. 
 

Quote

We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghans in a pointless "retaliation" that was nothing more than a trumped up lie to enrich a handful of American corporations. You tell me if that's better or worse than anything Hamas has done, I guess. And no, this is not me defending Hamas, Hamas is an awful, disgusting, horrific, and violent organization that needs to be wiped out.

Yeah, sure, bud. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

We won WW2, we have supplied Ukraine with weapons to defend themselves, we have made medical and technological achievements that have saved lives, and as painful and frustrating has been, until recently we’ve made progress towards acceptable of equal gender rights, accepting gays/trans, etc. good things have happened here. Terrible shit too, we’ve killed an entire indigenous species who was here first, our efforts in the Middle East are a profiteering joke, and after building up science and education we’re tearing to down and reverting to base tribalism. But good things have happened here, and comparing it to Hamas is a fucking, fucking joke. And I think you know better. 
 

im just going to assume you’re very heated and emotional about all of this. Which is fine, clearly so am I. So that being said, I implore you, let’s both take a breath and assume the other isn’t trying to Gotcha the other one or trap them into a statement and we’re just misunderstanding some of what the other is saying and keying on the wrong things and getting worked up. 

7 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

One thing I've learned on this thread today:  this place gets mighty salty on bye weeks.

Bye weeks after an OU loss are worse apparently.s 

Edited October 15, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[BrickHorn 18,186]

16 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

He explicitly said it’s the jews fault for the massacre that happened to them last week. Those are his own fucking words

That’s a pretty strong allegation. Do you have an actual quote to back it up?

[troph 24,560]

12 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You realize that no one is arguing with you, ever, that Palestinians, namely Hamas, have done fucked up, horrible, disgusting acts of terrorism right? Please tell me you realize that. I don't talk about it because there's nothing to argue about. My argument is with the notion that the Israeli government doesn't bear a large part, if not the brunt of responsibility for the current state of affairs. That's it.

Why the fuck would I name one good thing Hamas has done? Fuck Hamas. This is such a ridiculous question and literally has no point but to try and paint me as a terrorist sympathizer.

We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghans in a pointless "retaliation" that was nothing more than a trumped up lie to enrich a handful of American corporations. You tell me if that's better or worse than anything Hamas has done, I guess. And no, this is not me defending Hamas, Hamas is an awful, disgusting, horrific, and violent organization that needs to be wiped out.

Yeah, sure, bud. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

The United States charter does not call for the genocide of an ethnic group. 
 

The United States does not require its people to quarter military personnel.

the United States does not force its people to be military targets.

the United States does not without hardly an exception divert all funds to its political leaders. 
 

the United States does not prevent its people from pursuing educational opportunities or from believing whatever they want to believe.

Hamas does all those things. 
 

the United States is a nation state and like all nation states it advances its own interests as far as it can and protects its people. 
 

the two are not remotely the same.

now if you want to criticize United States imperialism I’ll join you - in a nuanced conversation - but blunt force statements that the United States is worse than Hamas is idiotic. 

[SydneyCarton 47,836]

6 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

That’s a pretty strong allegation. Do you have an actual quote to back it up?

I do:

 

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

Maybe they should have acted on the intelligence before allowing the massacre to happen.

The context was another posting asking the best way to remove Hamas, and if he thought that was door to door. That was his response. Nevermind he’s using an unconfirmed allegation in support of his position, what he’s saying is pretty fucking clear, the Jews are in this position because they fucked up and let themselves get massacred. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[Captainant 27,404]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

One thing I've learned on this thread today:  this place gets mighty salty on bye weeks.

Perhaps even surly, daresay?

[troph 24,560]

What’s about to happen is going to be awful. I have no idea what Israel should do but I know they can’t do nothing. I suspect they are going to war to remove Hamas completely. Hamas tactics on every level are going to make this an atrocious war - I truly believe most of the civilian casualties will be because of Hamas tactics. I also know that 98% of Americans and that includes 98% of us on this board would want blood flowing in the streets if we were in the same situation. I don’t know what the answer is but because I don’t know the answer I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to to say what Israel should or shouldn’t do. I do recognize that Israeli leadership has plenty of blame for how they’ve led but they are a nation state with an obligation to defend and protect its people. Telling Israel to do anything that leaves their people vulnerable is a non-starter. This situation is beyond impossible and frankly it’s a terrorist organization making it so more than any other cause or factor. 
 

time for me to go be a comfortable American thanks to the projection of our military power across the globe and do my weekend shit. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[wildcat09 29,213]

I don't think it's accurate to compare the US or Israeli governments to Hamas. I do think BF is trying to make a decent point (similar to the point Troph made upthread, which I find darkly funny), but going about it badly. But I've got some more rambling thoughts on why many people who think they're trying to be good allies of Jews aren't (though I do think the effort is sincere). I'll start with some thoughts on the current conflict from another Jew:

The Trap:

Quote

The following are some of my reactions to the present situation. They are not really analysis or commentary. And let me be the first say, they are not original, intelligent, or wise reflections. Nor are they even coherent. They mix attempts at thought with what are just really expressions of emotion. I apologize for this: We probably need more thinking and less feeling at the moment.

By this morning many of us have received another nightmarish push notification from the New York Times as Israel demands the evacuation of 1.1 million Palestinians from Northern Gaza. This is a cruel and impossible demand and the beginning of the worst type of calamity many feared would come from this war. There seems little possibility that international pressure will cause the Israeli Defense Forces to abandon or modify this request after the United States offered its unconditional support for Israel. One can only hope that this is a temporary measure and not the de facto implementation of the Israeli far right’s longstanding demands for “population transfers,”—essentially another round of ethnic cleansing. But even if the goal is purely military, it seems likely there will be little left to return to in Northern Gaza at the end of this war.

My interpretation remains that Hamas fully intended to provoke the most terrible possible response from Israel: their hope seems to be that Israel will commit such a massive atrocity in response that it will lose international legitimacy. All the sympathy that Jews as a people and the support Israel as a project receive as a result of the Holocaust will be erased or at least badly damaged. Every antisemite in the world will be able to say, “See, they are just as bad, stop listening to them complain, maybe they have it coming.” This would be the beginning of the end for Israel. After all, despite its military prowess, if remains a small nation, dependent on the support of bigger powers for arms and ammunition. If that goes, it is a trap, a prison, just another forsaken stretch of sand not unlike Gaza.

As a young man, I thought I was an anarchist. As you grow older, you drop such beliefs as stupid and naïve, but recently I’ve felt this naivety and stupidity is fundamentally correct: states are evil, abstractions like “nation” are not really worth dying or killing over, and that the world would be a better place if the soldiers on both sides just shot their own generals and leaders. I want to say, “To hell with the whole lot of them.”

Strategy and tactics are not what’s really at issue here. At core of the worldviews in question is a belief in sheer murderousness. What both Hamas and the far right in Israel want this is to become is a war of annihilation and extermination. This is the fundamental vision of their nationalism of despair: races and peoples pitted against each other in interminable conflicts that can only be concluded with “final solutions.” Of course, a similar vision of permanent racial war underpinned Nazism and the Holocaust. I categorically refuse to be recruited to this conception of the world. And I will not be manipulated by emotional appeals and propaganda—by one side or the other—to participate in it.

I was walking down the street and the Lubavitchers came up to me and asked me if I was Jewish. I felt an urge to do the prayers with them and to “connect with my Judaism.” But then they said point blank, “Do you want to put on tefillin for Israel?” And that was the end of it. I gave them a dirty look and walked off. I don’t want to be involved in any way. I refuse to mix the spiritual with the obscenity of this war.

I share the profound fear and heartbreak my fellow Jews experience at witnessing a massacre of Jews and then the apparent indifference and even glee this can inspire in people. But I believe adopting the attitude at the core of extreme Zionism—that Gentiles hate Jews naturally and essentially, that they will always attempt to kill Jews or justify the killing of Jews, and that as a result Jews can only really count on each other—is to embrace despair and the premise of Nazism, if only in reverse: that Jews are not really part of the larger human community, that we are in some sense its implacable foes. The division of the world into intrinsically opposed hordes and swarms attacks the very notion of shared humanity. I refuse to indulge in the despair that accepts the logic of the enemies of mankind.

I had an argument with a friend: He insisted that Jews were only really safe in Israel among fellow Jews. I pointed out the absurdity of this since Jews were quite evidently not particularly safe in Israel. Then he shifted: “Well, at least if you died there, you’d die amongst your brothers.” This is what I mean about nationalism being a doctrine of despair: ultimately, when you pull back the layers, nationalism is about desiring death, death for others and death for yourself. A warm, comfortable death for you, and a violent, cold, and terrible death for the other guy. It choses being subsumed in a mass to avoid the terrible difficulty of remaining human that rises to the fore in tragic moments like this one. When I die, I hope it will be here in New York, the promised land, surrounded by my brothers: all the different peoples of the world.

It is a deep temptation in moments like this to run and accept the embrace of nationalism. It seems to provide a sense of warmth and solidarity that compensates for the cruelty of the world on display. And it seems to offer the political means to answer that cruelty in kind and provide the appearance of safety. But it is just another trap: nationalism is the source of this all to begin with. They hug you—”Brother, you’ve finally joined us!”—and then they hand you a rifle. I believe one must resist the temptation of what Orwell identified as the core of nationalism: “[T]he habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad” and “the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests.” Above all, I refuse to become an insect or look on others as insects.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Jewish theology and I know there are many Orthodox Jews who disagree, but to me these comments have always been at the heart of what I understand Judaism to be, or at least, it's best form.  And it may seem odd, because one of most well known things about Jews is they consider themselves God's chosen people, but I think most people's Judaism is infused with the lessons of the diaspora, which has taught that Jews are safest when among other communities that embrace their commitment to shared humanity. That belief in a universal humanity is exactly what Hitler and the nazis tried to exterminate and that is why it must be cherished, protected, and encouraged. Because fuck nazis and fuck everything they stand for. 

I think Netanyahu and Likud and others like them learned the worst possible lesson from the holocaust. The lesson they learned was that the nazis were right, that Jews could never live with the rest of humanity. That has been guiding too much Israeli policy for too long.  Despite the destruction that is currently raining down on Gaza, I am cautiously optimistic that enough of the Israeli people are coming to understand that. 

[956 Worldwide 34,412]

“The U.S. government is a terrorists org” is a bananas fucking take and you just have to put it in the mouth of some right wing militia nut job to realize it. Except those nutters actually recognize the implication that comes with saying and thinking it. 
 

Put down the fucking Chomsky and come up for air. 

[G650 14,074]

1 minute ago, troph said:

I also know that 98% of Americans and that includes 98% of us on this board would want blood flowing in the streets if we were in the same situation

Come again

[956 Worldwide 34,412]

 

[troph 24,560]

6 minutes ago, G650 said:

Come again

The favorability ratings of military action after 9/11. It was in the 90% range. And th  atrocities against us didn’t include beheading babies either. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[6th Street 6,354]

1 hour ago, troph said:

the blame on the Jewish people for Hamas is gross, it’s soft anti-semitism to be perfectly frank about it because it’s a failure to see that there is NOTHING - NOT ONE GODDAMNED THING - they can do to keep themselves safe and free from violence perpetrated against them simply because they are Jews.

Two things that Israel should absolutely do:

1) Stop bulldozing homes in the West Bank and building illegal settlements in violation of international law. The UN and amnesty international have already condemned this activity.

2) Remove the blockade of food and medical supplies in Gaza. Starving kids is cruel and serves no diplomatic purpose. All it does is harbor more hatred 

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

13 minutes ago, troph said:

The United States charter does not call for the genocide of an ethnic group. 
 

The United States does not require its people to quarter military personnel.

the United States does not force its people to be military targets.

the United States does not without hardly an exception divert all funds to its political leaders. 
 

the United States does not prevent its people from pursuing educational opportunities or from believing whatever they want to believe.

Hamas does all those things. 
 

the United States is a nation state and like all nation states it advances its own interests as far as it can and protects its people. 
 

the two are not remotely the same.

now if you want to criticize United States imperialism I’ll join you - in a nuanced conversation - but blunt force statements that the United States is worse than Hamas is idiotic. 

This is nothing but cope. It's incredible how nationalistic some of you become in times of world crisis.

Imperialism is nothing but a milder term for violent, state-based terrorism and we're very good at it. I don't give a fuck that our charter doesn't call for genocide. The hundreds of thousands of bodies we've left in our wake are still dead, and the lives we've destroyed via toppling governments around the world are still destroyed. If you get that butthurt about me calling it terrorism, I don't know what to tell you. Do some better introspection, I guess.

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“The U.S. government is a terrorists org” is a bananas fucking take and you just have to put it in the mouth of some right wing militia nut job to realize it. Except those nutters actually recognize the implication that comes with saying and thinking it. 
 

Put down the fucking Chomsky and come up for air. 

Don't you have posters to accuse of being anti-semitic too, bitch? Shut the fuck up.

[wildcat09 29,213]

As a bit of an aside, I'd have no problem with Israel going all Munich on Hamas' leaders in Qatar and wherever else those fuckers are hiding. 

I don't think that'd destroy Hamas, but I do think it'd be more effective than dropping 20,000 bombs on Gaza.

[troph 24,560]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

This is nothing but cope. It's incredible how nationalistic some of you become in times of world crisis.

Imperialism is nothing but a milder term for violent, state-based terrorism and we're very good at it. I don't give a fuck that our charter doesn't call for genocide. The hundreds of thousands of bodies we've left in our wake are still dead, and the lives we've destroyed via toppling governments around the world are still destroyed. If you get that butthurt about me calling it terrorism, I don't know what to tell you. Do some better introspection, I guess.

Don't you have posters to accuse of being anti-semitic too, bitch? Shut the fuck up.

I’m far from a nationalist - as someone targeted by the government you should know that. 

[BrickHorn 18,186]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

The context was another posting asking the best way to remove Hamas, and if he thought that was door to door. That was his response. Nevermind he’s using an unconfirmed allegation in support of his position, what he’s saying is pretty fucking clear, the Jews are in this position because they fucked up and let themselves get massacred. 

Let’s be clear here. @chainsaw did not write what you attribute to him. In particular, he never blamed “the Jews.” He used the pronoun “they,” in response to this post which was about “Israel:”

5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

What would be the best way for Israel to remove Hamas? Door to door? 

His point was that Israel - a state, not an ethnic or religious group - could have done more to defend itself and its people, given what he thinks they knew at the time.

I’m not arguing that he’s right about that. But your paraphrasing of his statement is inaccurate and it unjustly implies a much darker meaning than I read in his post. 

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

2 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Two things that Israel should absolutely do:

1) Stop bulldozing homes in the West Bank and building illegal settlements in violation of international law. The UN and amnesty international have already condemned this activity.

2) Remove the blockade of food and medical supplies in Gaza. Starving kids is cruel and serves no diplomatic purpose. All it does is harbor more hatred 

By the way, in case you're all confused, this is TERRORISM.

I'm very sorry if your fee fees are hurt by that word used in a context that isn't directed at Arabs.

[jimmyjazz 45,538]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Don't you have posters to accuse of being anti-semitic too, bitch? Shut the fuck up.

See?

[G650 14,074]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

The favorability ratings of military action after 9/11. It was in the 90% range. And th  atrocities against us didn’t include beheading babies either. 

Brosef they killed 3000 men, women and children on 9/11. I was for taking out Al Qaeda leadership then and I'm for taking out Hamas leadership now. That is a far fucking cry from making blood run in the streets.

 

Some of yall really need to understand the words you are using.

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

As a bit of an aside, I'd have no problem with Israel going all Munich on Hamas' leaders in Qatar and wherever else those fuckers are hiding. 

I don't think that'd destroy Hamas, but I do think it'd be more effective than dropping 20,000 bombs on Gaza.

100%

[wildcat09 29,213]

Just now, troph said:

I’m far from a nationalist - as someone targeted by the government you should know that. 

Troph, pretty much every time someone has specifically criticized Israeli policy in this thread you've taken it as a criticism of Jewish people generally. That conflation is exactly what nationalists do. 

There are a few antisemites on Surly. They don't post in the CR much though, they prefer DT. There's probably more that don't really reveal it on this board anywhere, but the obvious ones are babayaga, icono, and workswithseed (he was less blatant about it on the board but I have no doubt he's got antisemitic views).  They think Israel and Jews are one and the same. Don't be like them.

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

I’m far from a nationalist - as someone targeted by the government you should know that. 

I know you're not, I just think you're saying some nationalistic things in this context.

As far as I'm concerned, you of all people should understand what I'm trying to say.

[wildcat09 29,213]

Oh yeah, I left out fatty.

[F250 28,674]

2 hours ago, troph said:

The Jewish people have known three things their entire existence - displacement, violence and mass murder against them where ever they live, and blame for the violence perpetrated against them.  The Jewish people are known to have suffered the most shocking crimes the world has ever seen against a people. 
 

this time the violence is the Jewish people’s fault despite Hamas - the military of Palestinian people - being one of the world’s most violent and evil terrorist organizations, despite an Arab wide religious system that has scripture directing Muslims  to kill Jews, despite educational system that teaches those kids who have the privilege to learn that the Jews should be eradicated from the Earth. 
 

if we lived near a people who wanted us dead - no exceptions - and you could not tell the militant from the peaceful I doubt we would show the restraint of the Jewish people. Fuck man, our state legislatures are actively outlawing some of us from existing and what violence have we perpetrated? 
 

the blame on the Jewish people for Hamas is gross, it’s soft anti-semitism to be perfectly frank about it because it’s a failure to see that there is NOTHING - NOT ONE GODDAMNED THING - they can do to keep themselves safe and free from violence perpetrated against them simply because they are Jews.

It's like you pulled a script from Fox News.

By framing this as the plight of Jewish people instead of the nation state of Israel you are attempting to frame any criticism of Israel as antisemitism which is complete bullshit.

 

 

 

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

See?

I would edit that out if I could. Too late now, c'est la vie. I'm sorry to all of those I sometimes yell at in this thread @956 Worldwide. This is a very emotional subject. We're all friends here.

Except those of you who suck, fuck you!!!

[troph 24,560]

15 minutes ago, G650 said:

Brosef they killed 3000 men, women and children on 9/11. I was for taking out Al Qaeda leadership then and I'm for taking out Hamas leadership now. That is a far fucking cry from making blood run in the streets.

 

Some of yall really need to understand the words you are using.

100%

You are correct. I used poor language. We as a people do not like to bomb and kill civilians but for the noble purpose we tolerated significant civilian casualties. And the elimination of Hamas is going to by definition result in mass casualties based on how Hamas conducts themselves.  

[6th Street 6,354]

You have not addressed the bulldozing of homes and illegal settlements in violation of international law.

[troph 24,560]

17 minutes ago, F250 said:

It's like you pulled a script from Fox News.

By framing this as the plight of Jewish people instead of the nation state of Israel you are attempting to frame any criticism of Israel as antisemitism which is complete bullshit.

 

 

 

The overlap is significant. And while my Jewish friends, clients and colleagues that I’ve spoken with (none who live in Israel) have choice words for the Israeli government, they do consider it their country and they find the attacks by Hamas to be personal to them as Jews. So take that for what it’s worth. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[G650 14,074]

1 minute ago, troph said:

You are correct. I used poor language. We as a people do not like to bomb and kill civilians but for the noble purpose we tolerated significant civilian casualties. And the elimination of Hamas is going to by definition result in mass casualties based on how Hamas conducts themselves.  

Thank you.

 

I mean, we tolerated it to different degrees and obviously the nobility of what we were doing was a farce. A certain segment of our population that overlaps with Tony Keith tolerated it a lot more.

 

It's old history now, but given all that’s transpired in the past two decades, I still stand by my assertion the first 6 months of Afghanistan were the right call, and everything that followed was a train wreck.

[troph 24,560]

3 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

You have not addressed the bulldozing of homes and illegal settlements in violation of international law.

Where have I said I support all that Israel does? They should stop. I’m talking about the response to Hamas today. The idea that I’m defending Israel for all acts or omissions is misguided. 

[956 Worldwide 34,412]

25 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Let’s be clear here. @chainsaw did not write what you attribute to him. In particular, he never blamed “the Jews.” He used the pronoun “they,” in response to this post which was about “Israel:”

His point was that Israel - a state, not an ethnic or religious group - could have done more to defend itself and its people, given what he thinks they knew at the time.

I’m not arguing that he’s right about that. But your paraphrasing of his statement is inaccurate and it unjustly implies a much darker meaning than I read in his post. 

Getting to a headspace where you believe Israel had enough information to stop the massacre and didn’t implies a strong conspiratorial worldview that’s pretty fucking dark. Strong vibes of “I’m critical of International Finance and rootless cosmopolitanism, how dare you mention anti-Semitism.” 
 

Some of you people need to get to the Holocaust Museum and take in the propaganda section to appreciate the historical context of the narratives being tossed around in this thread. 

[troph 24,560]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

Thank you.

 

I mean, we tolerated it to different degrees and obviously the nobility of what we were doing was a farce. A certain segment of our population that overlaps with Tony Keith tolerated it a lot more.

 

It's old history now, but given all that’s transpired in the past two decades, I still stand by my assertion the first 6 months of Afghanistan were the right call, and everything that followed was a train wreck.

I agree. I think we want to minimize civilian casualties but the objective needs to be achieved. I truly think Israel wants to minimize civilian casualties but their objective has to be achieved. I think after the initial offensive attack by Hamas, their defensive tactics will turn to maximizing civilian casualties as a weapon to force Israel to capitulate. It’s an impossible situation. 

[troph 24,560]

10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Getting to a headspace where you believe Israel had enough information to stop the massacre and didn’t implies a strong conspiratorial worldview that’s pretty fucking dark. Strong vibes of “I’m critical of International Finance and rootless cosmopolitanism, how dare you mention anti-Semitism.” 
 

Some of you people need to get to the Holocaust Museum and take in the propaganda section to appreciate the historical context of the narratives being tossed around in this thread. 

I think it’s incomprehensible for us to understand the hatred Hamas has for Israel and Jews - our western multicultural brains can’t compute. Because of that we slip into an assumption that they are rational actors. It’s an impossible situation. 

[BrickHorn 18,186]

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Getting to a headspace where you believe Israel had enough information to stop the massacre and didn’t implies a strong conspiratorial worldview that’s pretty fucking dark. Strong vibes of “I’m critical of International Finance and rootless cosmopolitanism, how dare you mention anti-Semitism.” 

Sigh. Your shit is tired. Shouldn’t you be on the DT thread contradicting yourself about the reliability of atrocity stories?

[Brisketexan 104,537]

Many Jews both here and in Israel are disgusted by and denounce what the government is currently doing. Jews are not a monolith. I want to make sure they are recognized and appreciated.

Are you familiar with the concept of comparative responsibility? This reminds me of a bar fight where many opportunities to de-escalate were deliberately or naively declined. Both participants bear responsibility for the fight, and the reasons how it started are long forgotten and almost don't matter anymore.
One side might be more drunk than the other, but in this fight, one side is clearly stronger, clearly has more allies, and clearly is in a position to end it peacefully. To me, that has moral implications beyond the practical implications. I believe it is blameworthy to escalate a fight. At some point, it crosses from self-defense to revenge. I'm very troubled by the revelations that the massacre could have been stopped but was not.

Y’all raise an interesting point, and it’s a common blind spot among the harshest Israel critics. Y’all are right…LOTS of Jewish voices, in Israel, and here, among the common population and leaders/thinkers. I have a significant number of Jewish friends. Almost all of them are I genuine agony over the actions of the Israeli state and the death and suffering of Palestinians, both over the years and today. They feel that as much, and for some even more, as they feel agony for the murders committed by Hamas last week.
That position is much rarer among Palestinians. Not non-existent of course, but much rarer. The more common reactions are either open celebration of Palestinian atrocities, or a passing statement of “of course it was bad for Hamas to murder civilians, but this is all Israel’s fault and the most important thing we can do now is use this as an opportunity to criticize Israel alone…FREE PALESTINE!”
If we’re gonna “both sides” this - and we should - then both sides need to be willing to be introspective. For example, Palestinians MIGHT want to step back and acknowledge that decades of violence against civilians, including high profile attacks celebrated with jubilation….has hardened Israel’s stance, and actually helped create and empower the Bibis and Likuds of this world (you know, just like disproportionate Israeli responses and violent repression of Palestinians helped create and empower Hamas). That take is much rarer than Israelis and Jews worldwide who say similar things about the Israeli state and govt.
Which, if you are an Israeli/Jewish moderate, is very discouraging. You WANT to come to the table, but why? To listen to Palestinians as they continue to toast to the murder of your neighbors? As they continue to refer to you solely as colonialists who must be pushed into the sea? And, maybe that’s what history demands…but good luck getting it.
A whole lot of “Palestinians are humans, what do you expeller them to do?”, without the same acknowledgment for Jews, who MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WANT TO EXTERMINATE, including at least a large plurality of Palestinians.
Which, by the way, is why there is no path forward and never will be. Just more death and suffering. That’s what we do.

[troph 24,560]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Y’all raise an interesting point, and it’s a common blind spot among the harshest Israel critics. Y’all are right…LOTS of Jewish voices, in Israel, and here, among the common population and leaders/thinkers. I have a significant number of Jewish friends. Almost all of them are I genuine agony over the actions of the Israeli state and the death and suffering of Palestinians, both over the years and today. They feel that as much, and for some even more, as they feel agony for the murders committed by Hamas last week.
That position is much rarer among Palestinians. Not non-existent of course, but much rarer. The more common reactions are either open celebration of Palestinian atrocities, or a passing statement of “of course it was bad for Hamas to murder civilians, but this is all Israel’s fault and the most important thing we can do now is use this as an opportunity to criticize Israel alone…FREE PALESTINE!”
If we’re gonna “both sides” this - and we should - then both sides need to be willing to be introspective. For example, Palestinians MIGHT want to step back and acknowledge that decades of violence against civilians, including high profile attacks celebrated with jubilation….has hardened Israel’s stance, and actually helped create and empower the Bibis and Likuds of this world (you know, just like disproportionate Israeli responses and violent repression of Palestinians helped create and empower Hamas). That take is much rarer than Israelis and Jews worldwide who say similar things about the Israeli state and govt.
Which, if you are an Israeli/Jewish moderate, is very discouraging. You WANT to come to the table, but why? To listen to Palestinians as they continue to toast to the murder of your neighbors? As they continue to refer to you solely as colonialists who must be pushed into the sea? And, maybe that’s what history demands…but good luck getting it.
A whole lot of “Palestinians are humans, what do you expeller them to do?”, without the same acknowledgment for Jews, who MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WANT TO EXTERMINATE, including at least a large plurality of Palestinians.
Which, by the way, is why there is no path forward and never will be. Just more death and suffering. That’s what we do.

 

[Satchel 6,908]

If our moral code is attuned to the suffering of just one side, then our moral code needs to be recalibrated.

[956 Worldwide 34,412]

11 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Sigh. Your shit is tired. Shouldn’t you be on the DT thread contradicting yourself about the reliability of atrocity stories?

“My groundless conspiracy theory about how the state of Israel allowed Jews to be massacred is really a nuanced critique of the government”  is some fucking weak shit. 

[Chuckie Finster 22,598]

It's like you pulled a script from Fox News.
By framing this as the plight of Jewish people instead of the nation state of Israel you are attempting to frame any criticism of Israel as antisemitism which is complete bullshit.
 
 
 

I have been incredibly vocal in the last few years about how Judaism and Israeli are not synonyms. Hearing Trump assume that he’ll win the Jewish vote purely because of something he did for Israel made my skin crawl. There’s a clear and obvious distinction between the two that can and should be made.

That being said, from what I’ve seen over the last week, the distinction is not important to most who are pro-Palestinian. A Jewish teacher in France was murdered yesterday. Jewish (not Israeli) museums in America hosted pro-Palestinian protests this week. Local Jewish owned business are getting negative review bombed by Palestinian sympathizers.

We all absolutely understand and appreciate the difference, we just also acknowledge that the opposition generally doesn’t give a fuck.

[BrickHorn 18,186]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“My groundless conspiracy theory about how the state of Israel allowed Jews to be massacred is really a nuanced critique of the government”  is some fucking weak shit. 

Whose conspiracy theory is that? And for maybe the sixth time on these threads, fuck you and your disingenuous bullshit. To the ignore list you go.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by BrickHorn

[Chuckie Finster 22,598]

Y’all raise an interesting point, and it’s a common blind spot among the harshest Israel critics. Y’all are right…LOTS of Jewish voices, in Israel, and here, among the common population and leaders/thinkers. I have a significant number of Jewish friends. Almost all of them are I genuine agony over the actions of the Israeli state and the death and suffering of Palestinians, both over the years and today. They feel that as much, and for some even more, as they feel agony for the murders committed by Hamas last week.
That position is much rarer among Palestinians. Not non-existent of course, but much rarer. The more common reactions are either open celebration of Palestinian atrocities, or a passing statement of “of course it was bad for Hamas to murder civilians, but this is all Israel’s fault and the most important thing we can do now is use this as an opportunity to criticize Israel alone…FREE PALESTINE!”
If we’re gonna “both sides” this - and we should - then both sides need to be willing to be introspective. For example, Palestinians MIGHT want to step back and acknowledge that decades of violence against civilians, including high profile attacks celebrated with jubilation….has hardened Israel’s stance, and actually helped create and empower the Bibis and Likuds of this world (you know, just like disproportionate Israeli responses and violent repression of Palestinians helped create and empower Hamas). That take is much rarer than Israelis and Jews worldwide who say similar things about the Israeli state and govt.
Which, if you are an Israeli/Jewish moderate, is very discouraging. You WANT to come to the table, but why? To listen to Palestinians as they continue to toast to the murder of your neighbors? As they continue to refer to you solely as colonialists who must be pushed into the sea? And, maybe that’s what history demands…but good luck getting it.
A whole lot of “Palestinians are humans, what do you expeller them to do?”, without the same acknowledgment for Jews, who MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WANT TO EXTERMINATE, including at least a large plurality of Palestinians.
Which, by the way, is why there is no path forward and never will be. Just more death and suffering. That’s what we do.

Finally, words that articulate what I’ve been feeling over the last week. Thank you Brisket, genuinely.

[956 Worldwide 34,412]

3 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Whose conspiracy theory is that? And for maybe the sixth time on these threads, fuck you and your disingenuous bullshit. 

 

The conspiracy theory that the Israeli government “allowed” the massacre to happen.  Having hard time keeping up? 
 

Quote

Maybe they should have acted on the intelligence before allowing the massacre to happen.

 

[956 Worldwide 34,412]

44 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

You have not addressed the bulldozing of homes and illegal settlements in violation of international law.

That’s super illegal and shouldn’t be happening. I’d go so far as to say the Israeli government has an affirmative responsibility to remove the settlements and prosecute and jail the people who moved there, and they aren’t doing it. They absolutely shouldn’t be helping them do it. Bibi is a piece of dick asshole for failing to do so. 
 

It’s not terrorism, though, if we are getting hung up on precise definition of terms.  

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

That’s super illegal and shouldn’t be happening. I’d go so far as to say the Israeli government has an affirmative responsibility to remove the settlements and prosecute and jail the people who moved there, and they aren’t doing it. They absolutely shouldn’t be helping them do it. Bibi is a piece of dick asshole for failing to do so. 
 

It’s not terrorism, though, if we are getting hung up on precise definition of terms.  

Dude come the fuck on, it is literally ethnic cleansing which is terrorism. This is why you get so much pushback, you absolutely refuse to acknowledge the actions of Israel for what they are.

You very clearly only want the word terrorism to be attached to Arabs. It's fucking gross and you should stop.

[troph 24,560]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

I know you're not, I just think you're saying some nationalistic things in this context.

As far as I'm concerned, you of all people should understand what I'm trying to say.

There isn’t a conversation where we will agree the US is a terrorist organization. I already said if you want to talk about American imperialism in a nuanced manner I’ll join. The fact is, the US is a mixed bag of good and bad acts, some the same event, same act, same decision has elements of both. Hamas is nothing but a death cult. 
 

we can criticize all we want but nation states exist in part to protect their people. Hamas is not that, the US and Israel are. If you want agreement that the nation states of the US and Israel have done some bad shit, clearly I agree, without hesitation. 

[956 Worldwide 34,412]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Dude come the fuck on, it is literally ethnic cleansing which is terrorism. This is why you get so much pushback, you absolutely refuse to acknowledge the actions of Israel for what they are.

You very clearly only want the word terrorism to be attached to Arabs. It's fucking gross and you should stop.

Ethnic cleansing isn’t terrorism, either. For that matter, neither was the Holocaust. All the bad things states do to kill people aren’t terrorism. A strategic bombing campaign that is targeting a military object but kills a lot of civilians isn’t terrorism. A strategic bombing campaign that is designed to terrify the population in the hopes they’ll stop fighting is terrorism. 
 

Terrorism is using violence against innocent people to spread fear in the hopes of advancing a political aim.  This is the Israeli government simply destroying shit and allowing Israelis to take it. Which is a crime. 

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Ethnic cleansing isn’t terrorism, either. For that matter, neither was the Holocaust. All the bad things states do to kill people aren’t terrorism. A strategic bombing campaign that is targeting a military object but kills a lot of civilians isn’t terrorism. A strategic bombing campaign that is designed to terrify the population in the hopes they’ll stop fighting is terrorism. 
 

Terrorism is using violence against innocent people to spread fear in the hopes of advancing a political aim.  This is the Israeli government simply destroying shit and allowing Israelis to take it. Which is a crime. 

It's incredible to me that we've reached a point that we're arguing whether or not state-sponsored ethnic cleansing is terrorism or not. When Israeli settlers illegally, forcibly displace Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank, it is an act of violence that is backed and supported by the government of Israel, which is what makes it state-sponsored terrorism.

You will literally say anything to ensure the word terrorism only describes Arabs.

[956 Worldwide 34,412]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

It's incredible to me that we've reached a point that we're arguing whether or not state-sponsored ethnic cleansing is terrorism or not. When Israeli settlers illegally, forcibly displace Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank, it is an act of violence that is backed and supported by the government of Israel, which is what makes it state-sponsored terrorism.

You will literally say anything to ensure the word terrorism only describes Arabs.

Well, it was terrorism when Zionist terrorists blow up the King David hotel. And when Israeli illegal settlers shoot Palestinian neighbors in the hopes they’ll run away and abandon their homes, that’s absolutely terrorism. 

What you’ve described above is forcible displacement, and if/when it’s done with the aim of creating a homogenous state then it’s ethnic cleansing. Those are all crimes enough.