Israel

[956 Worldwide 34440]

49 minutes ago, mchookem said:

what is Plan Dalet? i have literally never heard of it and am seeing it referenced as an intentional ethnic cleansing of Arabs/Palestinians plan, from way back in 1948. i mean i checked the google machine and it...reads a lot like what's been happening in modern day Palestine, but i don't know any historical context or what may have preceeded it. 

There’s a lot of historical debate of whether Plan Dalet was aimed at ethnic cleansing or not, that breaks down on the line you’d expect. 
 

But it is quite different from what’s happening today. It was a military plan with military objectives and not a massive social/political plan. The objectives were to secure the borders of the new state of Israel against attacks from surrounding states, take control of mandatory Palestine, and provide security to Jewish communities outside of those borders when British forces withdrew.  The second and third objectives are where the question of any ethnic cleansing intent arises. 
 

Israel’s recent policies in the West Bank have been carried out via mostly non-military means and Israel is in a different strategic environment and so there’s no current analogue. 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

3 hours ago, Nivek said:

Another misrepresentation.  One side wants peace. the other does not.

You're claiming misrepresentation while literally doing that. The Israeli people want peace, Netanyahu and his government demonstrably do not.

I don't know why you continually demand perfect solutions from people who are simply advocating against genocide. I mean, again, I do, I just want to hear you say it.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Israel’s recent policies in the West Bank have been carried out via mostly non-military means and Israel is in a different strategic environment and so there’s no current analogue. 

This is just an extremely whitewashed way of saying that instead of using the IDF, they are simply supporting armed settler militias to carry out ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

[bolverk 29399]

@Foosters Tagging you because I don't know if you'll get a notification when I share your post here.

 

LinkedIn Issues Warning to Site Shaming Pro-Palestinian Sentiment
The site listed thousands of people and grouped them by their workplaces after they posted on the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

Online posts asking to “#PrayForPalestine.” Entreaties for peace. Pleas to “Free Gaza.”

Over the last 10 days, a website called anti-israel-employees.com published more than 17,000 posts, which one of the people behind the site said had been taken mainly from LinkedIn. The site, which claimed to be a “global live feed of potentially supportive sentiments for terrorism among company employees,” listed thousands of people and grouped them by their workplaces, in an apparent attempt to shame them for their sentiments on the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

The website, which was taken offline for a day before being migrated to a new web address, named employees of major international corporations, including Amazon, Mastercard and Ernst & Young, and shared their profile photos, LinkedIn pages and posts.

Itai Liptz, a hedge fund manager who said he was one of the people behind the original site, said that its goal was to “expose people who supported Hamas publicly.”

“We wanted to have it documented and a record,” he said. “If I work in this company, but I see my friends on LinkedIn celebrating and praising Hamas, then I’m not feeling safe.”

But the site also highlighted posts from people who did not explicitly show support for Hamas, according to posts seen by The New York Times. Some people used hash tags like “#GazaUnderAttack” or sought to draw attention to the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip. The site asked users to submit posts that they believed should be exposed, and included a numeric “hate score” for companies.

The site, which was created 10 days ago, comes amid a wider debate over online expression during a fraught international conflict. Similar lists have also been created to track college students who have spoken out in support of Palestinians, while Meta, the parent company of Instagram and Facebook, said it took down nearly 800,000 pieces of Hebrew and Arabic language content for violating its rules in the three days after the Hamas attacks on Oct. 7.

Some people who were highlighted on the site have already deleted their LinkedIn posts or their LinkedIn profiles. Mr. Liptz, who said he did not expect the site to become as popular as it did after spreading via WhatsApp groups, called the far-ranging capture of all pro-Palestinian sentiment a mistake.

“If somebody says ‘Free Palestine’ that is totally OK, and we shouldn’t put it on our website,” he said on Saturday. “We just want to make sure the filters are there because they have the right to say that.”

The site, however, was back online on Sunday at a new web address and still displayed the posts and names of people that Mr. Liptz had said would be removed. Now located at an Israel-specific domain, the site is being overseen by Guy Ophir, a lawyer in Israel, who said the team moved it to a new address after receiving a cease-and-desist letter from LinkedIn.

A spokesman for LinkedIn said the company determined that the site had used automated programs to extract content from the platform, a practice known as scraping, which is a violation of its rules. Mr. Liptz denied that his site extracted the LinkedIn information through scraping, while Mr. Ophir said he believed that LinkedIn was trying to infringe on his right to free speech.

“We are not going to remove the website,” he said. “We are willing to fight them here.”

The site has been a subject of discussion at Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, and LinkedIn, where employees have expressed concern about the chilling effect it could have on online speech.

“People are scraping pro-Palestine LinkedIn posts and adding them to a database of ‘terror supporters,’” one employee wrote last Wednesday in a note on an internal Meta message board that was seen by The Times.

Other Meta employees were in disbelief that expressing support for Palestine was equated with supporting terrorism.

“The lack of understanding,” a Meta employee wrote, “is beyond insensitive and cruel.”

 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

4 hours ago, Nivek said:

Another misrepresentation.  One side wants peace. the other does not. 

This hurts my brain. Have you ever heard of Bibi or the Likud party? 

[TexArcher 37508]

5 hours ago, Nivek said:

One side wants peace. the other does not.

It is almost certainly true that the average Israeli and Palestinian civilian wants peace.

But, that is not true for the leaders of either group.

Netanyahu has maintained power for a very long time by being The One Who Keeps Israel Safe.  He needs Hamas.  And, Hamas needs Netanyahu and the blockade and mistreatment of Gaza.

If both sides started treating each other like human beings, people like Netanyahu and the leaders of Hamas would be out of business pretty quickly.

Hence, neither side lets that happen. 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

It is almost certainly true that the average Israeli and Palestinian civilian wants peace.

But, that is not true for the leaders of either group.

Netanyahu has maintained power for a very long time by being The One Who Keeps Israel Safe.  He needs Hamas.  And, Hamas needs Netanyahu and the blockade and mistreatment of Gaza.

If both sides started treating each other like human beings, people like Netanyahu and the leaders of Hamas would be out of business pretty quickly.

Hence, neither side lets that happen. 

Well said.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

This is a good discussion to listen to if you're inclined and have the time. Understandable if not, it's fairly long. It features Zachary Foster, who is an anti-Zionist Jew with a Ph.D. in Palestinian History from Princeton.

They are reacting to a video by a Zionist YouTuber and he takes the time to refute a lot of the (frequently stereotypically racist anti-Arab) points he's making and provides a lot of historical context. It was interesting to me.

[linux 1659]

I can not fucking believe that Netanyahu has been leader of Israel since I started paying attention (around 1996). After the assassination of Rabin Israel has essentially being governed by one man for 30 years and they never put 2 and 2 together that the symbiosis of dear leader and those who vote for him has led to this ticking timebomb. 

People that say this conflict is complicated has not been paying attention, it is extremely simple. Never ever ever put fascists in power (and yes that includes Hamas and Ariel Sharon)

Then the arrogance about democracy form the Israeli left just managed to piss people off in the west and it is no wonder that Israel lost Millenials and Gen Z. It was unheard of to ever see ANY push back, let alone massive free palestine protests in the US. 

Biden wishes it was that simple, but he needs to push for a cease fire, if Israel wants justice it has to be done withing a system of justice, but even their assasination squads are more humane than killing children and claiming it was collateral.

[956 Worldwide 34440]

A ceasefire takes two sides, by definition. Is there any indication at all that Hamas wants one?

[bolverk 29399]

3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

This is a good discussion to listen to if you're inclined and have the time. Understandable if not, it's fairly long. It features Zachary Foster, who is an anti-Zionist Jew with a Ph.D. in Palestinian History from Princeton.

They are reacting to a video by a Zionist YouTuber and he takes the time to refute a lot of the (frequently stereotypically racist anti-Arab) points he's making and provides a lot of historical context. It was interesting to me.

That original video from travelingisrael that they're responding to was previously posted somewhere up-thread, I think.

Edited October 24, 2023 by bolverk

[linux 1659]

20 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

A ceasefire takes two sides, by definition. Is there any indication at all that Hamas wants one?

Hamas is now in the stage of temporary cease fire at all costs, they are even releasing hostages without condition.

I am not naive, I know who they are this would only be temporary for a few years, but the cycle HAS to descalate, that is the north star, Israel has ruled out dealing it like they dealt with black september, meaning they do not want to expend the resources to do this with as minimal collateral as possible. They want the war and civilian casualties be damned, they just don't want to be blamed for it which is fucking ridiculous.

Israel made peace with Egypt immediately after the YKP war. Had they predictably turned to bloodlust it would have never happened.

 

[956 Worldwide 34440]

Yeah, I don’t think that continuing to shoot rockets and holding 196/200 hostages gets to count as anything close to pursuing a ceasefire at all costs. 

[linux 1659]

7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Yeah, I don’t think that continuing to shoot rockets and holding 196/200 hostages gets to count as anything close to pursuing a ceasefire at all costs. 

Ceasefire at all costs means no ground invasion of Gaza.

A full ceasefire is no rocket launches and hostages released.

They are using the full ceasefire carrot to negotiate the non invasion of Gaza.

Israel is not really interested.

Edited October 24, 2023 by linux

[chainsaw 9838]

50 minutes ago, bolverk said:

That original video from Zachary Foster that they're responding to was previously posted somewhere up-thread, I think.

that original video was fucking insane. every time he mentions an instance of Arabs rejecting a deal, he conveniently omits like the most important details, almost as if he has an agenda (to portray the Arabs as irrational anti-semites)

[956 Worldwide 34440]

13 minutes ago, linux said:

Ceasefire at all costs means no ground invasion of Gaza.

A full ceasefire is no rocket launches and hostages released.

They are using the full ceasefire carrot to negotiate the non invasion of Gaza.

Israel is not really interested.

This seems like a lot of projection especially considering that they had a ceasefire and non-invasion of Gaza as recently as October 6 and decided to start a war. 
 

Breaking a ceasefire just long enough to murder 1000 plus people and kidnap a bunch more, then asking for it back?

Edited October 24, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[SL Xpress 7505]

Are there a lot of you that think a two state solution is actually reasonable? 

To me the fundamental question is, do you believe Israel has a right to exist as a country of Jews, or do you feel like the displacement of Palestinians to form the state of Israel is a modern act of colonization that someday needs to be rectified? As the radical left says, "decolonization is not a metaphor."

Everything we've been doing for almost 90 years feels like a dance pretending like these two fundamentally disparate views don't exist, and that there's some kind of middle ground that can be broached between them. Which I do not believe.

I don't think Arabs in general (add in non secular Iranians, Turks, and Pakistanis), and Palestinians specifically, are actually going to be satisfied over the long term until Israel ceases to exist. Voices urging violence, jihad, and martyrdom will always have an audience. It doesn't have to be a majority. It simply has to be enough to cause chaos. 

This doesn't even touch on the yearning for a new Caliphate, and the impotence of the Islamic world in the face of Western dominance, that's no where more exemplified than the existence of Israel. It's like a modern day successful Crusade executed by the Jews. 

Israel, on the other hand, has no chance to ever be a true democracy because their priority is to remain a Jewish state, not to have truly free elections. 

When Jewish people say, "Never again" I don't ever believe they're actually saying we need to make sure genocide on the level of the holocaust never happens again. I believe they're saying they're never again going meekly into the ovens and gas chambers. 

I have never believed a true peace in the area is possible. Maybe if Arabs wanted to allow Palestinians into their country to assimilate, but neither Palestinian leaders nor Arab rulers want that even a little bit. And I don't blame them. But as long as the Palestinian people exist as a cultural entity, and as long as Israel continues to insist they have the right to control the land they do as a Jewish state, I feel like there will be continued ongoing conflict on one level or another.

To me the negotiations for a two state solution have been a farce to keep the violence from becoming worse. And the cycles of violence ebb and flow depending on how hopeful the unrealistic negotiations have been. But I am of the cynical opinion that a two state solution is no solution for Israel, and only creates a future greater existential crisis in the future, rather than lessens it. 

But I'd like to hear from people more hopeful than me on either the Israeli, Palestinian, or a more allegedly neutral side that just wants peace in our lifetime, as it were. 

[linux 1659]

47 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This seems like a lot of projection especially considering that they had a ceasefire and non-invasion of Gaza as recently as October 6 and decided to start a war. 
 

Breaking a ceasefire just long enough to murder 1000 plus people and kidnap a bunch more, then asking for it back?

There was a ceasefire, but so did Egypt/Syria/Israel on 6 of October 1973 they still got ONE peace deal.

To understand why all of this happened in Oct 7 2023 is simple, very very simple, neither side wanted peace, the population did, and they population was tricked into thinking that Bibi could give them peace, or that Hamas could give them peace, but at the end of the day it was a lie, the next Likud strongman will promise the same and we are back to square one.

Israel wants WB land, had the status quo been perpetuated for 100 years they were happy stealing WB land. This bias for underestimating their opponent and wanting the status quo is actively selecting to continue the violence.

Hamas wants war in the long run, obviously this is actively selecting to continue the violence.

It was inevitable.

And we have not even discussed how they put like 80% of the IDF to defend settlers in the east.

[linux 1659]

5 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Are there a lot of you that think a two state solution is actually reasonable? 

Right now yes, if Israel does not invade Gaza there is a sliver of hope see the YKP war as historical reference

To me the fundamental question is, do you believe Israel has a right to exist as a country of Jews, or do you feel like the displacement of Palestinians to form the state of Israel is a modern act of colonization that someday needs to be rectified? As the radical left says, "decolonization is not a metaphor."

There should be compensation at the minimum.

 

Israel, on the other hand, has no chance to ever be a true democracy because their priority is to remain a Jewish state, not to have truly free elections. 

It is so fucking ridiculous, but the secular jews are also victims of the theocracy, we will see how they handle things going forward and if they go back to voting for Bibi et al.

When Jewish people say, "Never again" I don't ever believe they're actually saying we need to make sure genocide on the level of the holocaust never happens again. I believe they're saying they're never again going meekly into the ovens and gas chambers. 

Reminds me of this

In 2003, a military historian, Martin van Creveld, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.^[37] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's The Gun and the Olive Branch (2003) as saying:

We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.^[38]

However, according to Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Yaakov, who was the mastermind behind the "Samson Option", it was unlikely Israel could have even targeted Europe, as Israel did not yet have other measures like bombs or missiles to carry the nuclear payload.^[39]

They have hundreds of nuclear weapons, in subs, their target is not Iran, but the rest of the world, us. Never again is a threat.

 

Are there a lot of you that think a two state solution is actually reasonable? 

Right now yes, if Israel does not invade Gaza there is a sliver of hope see the YKP war as historical reference

To me the fundamental question is, do you believe Israel has a right to exist as a country of Jews, or do you feel like the displacement of Palestinians to form the state of Israel is a modern act of colonization that someday needs to be rectified? As the radical left says, "decolonization is not a metaphor."

There should be compensation at the minimum.

 

Israel, on the other hand, has no chance to ever be a true democracy because their priority is to remain a Jewish state, not to have truly free elections. 

It is so fucking ridiculous, but the secular jews are also victims of the theocracy, we will see how they handle things going forward and if they go back to voting for Bibi et al.

When Jewish people say, "Never again" I don't ever believe they're actually saying we need to make sure genocide on the level of the holocaust never happens again. I believe they're saying they're never again going meekly into the ovens and gas chambers. 

Reminds me of this

In 2003, a military historian, Martin van Creveld, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.^[37] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's The Gun and the Olive Branch (2003) as saying:

We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.^[38]

However, according to Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Yaakov, who was the mastermind behind the "Samson Option", it was unlikely Israel could have even targeted Europe, as Israel did not yet have other measures like bombs or missiles to carry the nuclear payload.^[39]

They have hundreds of nuclear weapons, in subs, their target is not Iran, but the rest of the world, us. Never again is a threat.

[SL Xpress 7505]

1 minute ago, linux said:

 

So your personal view is that if Israel/third parties compensate Palestinians for their displacement that should be enough that they ignore their claims on their ancestral land? And you think that would realistically happen?

[mchookem 16212]

9 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s a lot of historical debate of whether Plan Dalet was aimed at ethnic cleansing or not, that breaks down on the line you’d expect. 
 

But it is quite different from what’s happening today. It was a military plan with military objectives and not a massive social/political plan. The objectives were to secure the borders of the new state of Israel against attacks from surrounding states, take control of mandatory Palestine, and provide security to Jewish communities outside of those borders when British forces withdrew.  The second and third objectives are where the question of any ethnic cleansing intent arises. 
 

Israel’s recent policies in the West Bank have been carried out via mostly non-military means and Israel is in a different strategic environment and so there’s no current analogue. 

thanks for some background. i was thinking how you counter the argument that from it's inception Israel's plan was to eliminate Palestinians by force. 

i mean i'm not saying i necessarily want to make that argument, but just reading up on it and trying to understand what the intent was behind it. on the surface it does read that way, but i suppose it's rather...'nuanced'. 🤔

[linux 1659]

9 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

So your personal view is that if Israel/third parties compensate Palestinians for their displacement that should be enough that they ignore their claims on their ancestral land? And you think that would realistically happen?

With sufficient money this singular issue is moot, if given a choice between 1 million dollars and a parcel of land I think this is resolvable.

Note the hundreds of billions spent on defense.

The small minority that wants to return should then be allowed to return.

 

[mchookem 16212]

7 hours ago, bolverk said:

@Foosters Tagging you because I don't know if you'll get a notification when I share your post here.

 

LinkedIn Issues Warning to Site Shaming Pro-Palestinian Sentiment
The site listed thousands of people and grouped them by their workplaces after they posted on the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

Online posts asking to “#PrayForPalestine.” Entreaties for peace. Pleas to “Free Gaza.”

Over the last 10 days, a website called anti-israel-employees.com published more than 17,000 posts, which one of the people behind the site said had been taken mainly from LinkedIn. The site, which claimed to be a “global live feed of potentially supportive sentiments for terrorism among company employees,” listed thousands of people and grouped them by their workplaces, in an apparent attempt to shame them for their sentiments on the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

The website, which was taken offline for a day before being migrated to a new web address, named employees of major international corporations, including Amazon, Mastercard and Ernst & Young, and shared their profile photos, LinkedIn pages and posts.

Itai Liptz, a hedge fund manager who said he was one of the people behind the original site, said that its goal was to “expose people who supported Hamas publicly.”

“We wanted to have it documented and a record,” he said. “If I work in this company, but I see my friends on LinkedIn celebrating and praising Hamas, then I’m not feeling safe.”

But the site also highlighted posts from people who did not explicitly show support for Hamas, according to posts seen by The New York Times. Some people used hash tags like “#GazaUnderAttack” or sought to draw attention to the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip. The site asked users to submit posts that they believed should be exposed, and included a numeric “hate score” for companies.

The site, which was created 10 days ago, comes amid a wider debate over online expression during a fraught international conflict. Similar lists have also been created to track college students who have spoken out in support of Palestinians, while Meta, the parent company of Instagram and Facebook, said it took down nearly 800,000 pieces of Hebrew and Arabic language content for violating its rules in the three days after the Hamas attacks on Oct. 7.

Some people who were highlighted on the site have already deleted their LinkedIn posts or their LinkedIn profiles. Mr. Liptz, who said he did not expect the site to become as popular as it did after spreading via WhatsApp groups, called the far-ranging capture of all pro-Palestinian sentiment a mistake.

“If somebody says ‘Free Palestine’ that is totally OK, and we shouldn’t put it on our website,” he said on Saturday. “We just want to make sure the filters are there because they have the right to say that.”

The site, however, was back online on Sunday at a new web address and still displayed the posts and names of people that Mr. Liptz had said would be removed. Now located at an Israel-specific domain, the site is being overseen by Guy Ophir, a lawyer in Israel, who said the team moved it to a new address after receiving a cease-and-desist letter from LinkedIn.

A spokesman for LinkedIn said the company determined that the site had used automated programs to extract content from the platform, a practice known as scraping, which is a violation of its rules. Mr. Liptz denied that his site extracted the LinkedIn information through scraping, while Mr. Ophir said he believed that LinkedIn was trying to infringe on his right to free speech.

“We are not going to remove the website,” he said. “We are willing to fight them here.”

The site has been a subject of discussion at Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, and LinkedIn, where employees have expressed concern about the chilling effect it could have on online speech.

“People are scraping pro-Palestine LinkedIn posts and adding them to a database of ‘terror supporters,’” one employee wrote last Wednesday in a note on an internal Meta message board that was seen by The Times.

Other Meta employees were in disbelief that expressing support for Palestine was equated with supporting terrorism.

“The lack of understanding,” a Meta employee wrote, “is beyond insensitive and cruel.”

 

oh that is some bullshit. 

[atomheartbevo 89427]

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Are there a lot of you that think a two state solution is actually reasonable? 

Only if the civilian populations of Israel and the Palestinian areas are actually respected by their leadership, and their leadership works for what's best for their people.

So no, it'll never happen.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

To me the fundamental question is, do you believe Israel has a right to exist as a country of Jews, or do you feel like the displacement of Palestinians to form the state of Israel is a modern act of colonization that someday needs to be rectified? 

Doesn't really matter about any such questions, because Israel exists in the here and now, it's not the mid-1940s, and Israel has nukes and nobody is dislodging them or going to make them rectify any situations.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I don't think Arabs in general (add in non secular Iranians, Turks, and Pakistanis), and Palestinians specifically, are actually going to be satisfied over the long term until Israel ceases to exist.

The Turks will do whatever is in their best interest at that moment in time (witness their at-times very close cooperation with Israel over the decades, or their machinations in NATO). They share a common enemy with Israel.  Pakistan has India shit to worry about long before it thinks about Israel.  Iran has a reckoning it's going to face one of these years in terms of how it treats its youth and women, as well as the fuckery with Russia and in Syria.  Palestinians can't make Israel cease to exist, any more than I can make Sela Ward show up on my doorstep looking for love.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

 I believe they're saying they're never again going meekly into the ovens and gas chambers. 

Which is why they obtained nukes as quickly as they could, after the various wars they suffered at the hands of their neighbors.  Those nukes really calmed a lot of nations down.  It was like Jules producing a big fucking hand cannon and Honey Bunny realizing that shit was going to go very wrong for her.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I have never believed a true peace in the area is possible. Maybe if Arabs wanted to allow Palestinians into their country to assimilate, but neither Palestinian leaders nor Arab rulers want that even a little bit.

Anything is politically possible if you have the right people at the helm.  Unfortunately for both sides, the leadership has a hammer and they see everything as a problem that can only be treated with a hammer.

It's like Republicans here in the US that believe that if only there was a big-enough wall on the Mexican border, it would solve everything, when in fact it solves nothing - a wall does not remove the conditions that exist back in the homelands of those coming here illegally, and it does not remove the amount of money those folks can make here (in many cases, being paid to them by people who gleefully post on Facebook or Free Republic or whatever that we need a bigger wall). If you want to slow down illegal immigration, you have to go back to their homelands and solve the root problems (poverty, political instability, food instability, etc) and help raise their standard of living.  Solve the problems that cause them to come here so that they never get the urge to come here.  It's the same shit that the Anglo/European ancestors of many Americans faced, and the same reason why they came here in the 1500s-1900s.

Same goes here - you need Israeli leadership who is willing to put themselves in the shoes of the Palestinians, and you need Palestinian leadership that can also understand the Israel mindset of existentialism, and that can tap into the 1.8 billion Muslims around the world, and you need both to come together and help each other, and you need to raise the standard of living for the Palestinians, or figure out a pipeline for getting them out of that area and into the rest of the world.  There had to be plenty of Palestinians who probably knew something was up before the Hamas attack, and you need to ask  why they didn't drop a dime and let the Israelis know that strange things were afoot. You may not be able to reach the older generations, but if you can reach the younger ones and keep them from falling under the lure of the groups like Hamas, you can get started down that road.

 

[atomheartbevo 89427]

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

This doesn't even touch on the yearning for a new Caliphate

Anybody yearning for a new caliphate needs to stop worrying about Israel and start trying to make it happen in the 50+ Islamic nations.  Even if the Palestinians managed to do some kind of far-fetched caliphate that took over Israel, said caliphate would quickly be snuffed out by surrounding Muslim countries that rightfully see it as an existential threat.

22 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

, and the impotence of the Islamic world in the face of Western dominance

They aren't that impotent - their money (US dollars) still spends well, and some, not all, but some in that region who rely on the almighty oil exports are looking down the road to a time when declining oil exports will reduce their power and importance in the world.  The Saudis and their $500 billion Neom city (which has no provisions for taking in Palestinians) is a batshit example, but Qatar, UAE, etc. are all trying to diversity.

[956 Worldwide 34440]

Israel’s submarine deterrents are diesel-electric boats with a constrained underwater range that carry nuclear-capable cruise missiles, these boats and missiles are exactly good for regional deployment and really not at all for global deterrence patrols pointed at “the rest of the world.” Those patrols are done by nuclear submarines that stay submerged for months at a time and carry warheads on ICBMs that can reach out and touch anyone, anywhere.  Israel has aircraft capable of deploying nuclear weapons that are also limited range and utility outside a regional conflict, they do not possess long-range strategic bombers.  They have an unknown quantity of Jericho III ICBMs. Those are not “pointed” really at anywhere, that’s not how it works. It is impossible to imagine their first use against a nuclear alliance like NATO. 
 

Also, “never again is a threat” against “us.”  Holy shit that “legitimate criticism of the state if Israel” mask really slipped a long way down. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[Neonmoon 38127]

9 hours ago, linux said:

With sufficient money this singular issue is moot, if given a choice between 1 million dollars and a parcel of land I think this is resolvable.

Note the hundreds of billions spent on defense.

The small minority that wants to return should then be allowed to return.

 

By return, do you mean 

1. Allowed to be a citizen of Israel

2. Return to the West Bank

3. Remove Israeli from land and returned to Palestinian in Israel 

4. Remove Israel from land and returned to Palestinian in West Bank 

Follow up.

What shall be the consequences of a ceasefire is broken in the future? 
 

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31272]

So, sidebar question.  Muslim Arabs haven't always been fundamentalist jihadists.  They've had some pretty solid societies over history that were tolerant and educated, at least that is what I have been mostly led to believe/understand.

What caused them to become such "shitheads"?  Fall of the Ottoman Empire and falling behind the west?

Is there any hope that the Arab world will moderate?

[atomheartbevo 89427]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

What caused them to become such "shitheads"?  Fall of the Ottoman Empire and falling behind the west?

England and France drawing up arbitrary borders after the Fall of the Ottoman Empire.  The Empire in 1914 - you can pretty. much see a lot of the hot spots were contained within one dominion.

[Nivek 16859]

2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're claiming misrepresentation while literally doing that. The Israeli people want peace, Netanyahu and his government demonstrably do not.

I don't know why you continually demand perfect solutions from people who are simply advocating against genocide. I mean, again, I do, I just want to hear you say it.

Perfect? You haven't offered any solutions.  Hamas has got to go, is easy to say.  How is the real part.  So how? Who does it?

Netanyahu was part of a deal with Yasser Arafat, that Palestinians broke.  He was working on a deal with Saudi Arabia, that was delayed if not broken by this recent attack.  So claiming both sides is just heuristics typical of message board users when discussing complicated issues.    

Ultimately, I think he has to go as well.  Someone not emotionally tied to the bad faith agreements made in the past needs to take over.   I don't see him losing power in this climate where people are dodging rockets.  You?   

And no, the Israeli people do not want peace.  Some want it.   Some do not.   Same goes for Palestinians.  They also wear shoes.   And sometimes they pee and poo.  Any other obvious shit you need to point out?  I like sex and money.  

[chainsaw 9838]

15 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Hamas has got to go, is easy to say.  How is the real part.  So how? Who does it?

It's like saying MAGA has got to go. I agree, but at this point it's more of an ideology. You can't kill your way out of this. In fact, the more civilians you indiscriminately kill, the stronger it gets.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

26 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Perfect? You haven't offered any solutions.  Hamas has got to go, is easy to say.  How is the real part.  So how? Who does it?

Netanyahu was part of a deal with Yasser Arafat, that Palestinians broke.  He was working on a deal with Saudi Arabia, that was delayed if not broken by this recent attack.  So claiming both sides is just heuristics typical of message board users when discussing complicated issues.    

Ultimately, I think he has to go as well.  Someone not emotionally tied to the bad faith agreements made in the past needs to take over.   I don't see him losing power in this climate where people are dodging rockets.  You?   

And no, the Israeli people do not want peace.  Some want it.   Some do not.   Same goes for Palestinians.  They also wear shoes.   And sometimes they pee and poo.  Any other obvious shit you need to point out?  I like sex and money.  

I actually have offered solutions (in fact the only solution that in my mind would result in the fewest lives lost) as anyone who has actually read my posts in this thread can attest to, you're just so horny to say that sentence as a part of your personal propaganda universe, you just can't fucking help yourself. I'm not going to type it out again here for you, you're welcome to actually read posts in this thread.

At any rate, it's a stupid fucking ask and you should stop the bullshit conversational gatekeeping. Criticism of one side doesn't require perfect victims on the other, nor does it require solutions to be offered, so you should stop trying to debate people that way.

No human person has any fucking idea how to implement a good solution that results in the fewest human casualties and ridding the world of Hamas and Netanyahu's government. much less any of us dipshits that post on Surly.

[Foosters 17732]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

So, sidebar question.  Muslim Arabs haven't always been fundamentalist jihadists.  They've had some pretty solid societies over history that were tolerant and educated, at least that is what I have been mostly led to believe/understand.

What caused them to become such "shitheads"?  Fall of the Ottoman Empire and falling behind the west?

Is there any hope that the Arab world will moderate?

I think the simulation has an embedded rule that causes major religions to go on murderous purges and violent conquests roughly 1000-1400 years after the founding.

[linux 1659]

6 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Israel’s submarine deterrents are diesel-electric boats with a constrained underwater range that carry nuclear-capable cruise missiles, these boats and missiles are exactly good for regional deployment and really not at all for global deterrence patrols pointed at “the rest of the world.” Those patrols are done by nuclear submarines that stay submerged for months at a time and carry warheads on ICBMs that can reach out and touch anyone, anywhere.  Israel has aircraft capable of deploying nuclear weapons that are also limited range and utility outside a regional conflict, they do not possess long-range strategic bombers.  They have an unknown quantity of Jericho III ICBMs. Those are not “pointed” really at anywhere, that’s not how it works. It is impossible to imagine their first use against a nuclear alliance like NATO. 
 

Also, “never again is a threat” against “us.”  Holy shit that “legitimate criticism of the state if Israel” mask really slipped a long way down. 

German Diesel Electric subs in WWII patrolled all the way to the Caribbean.

I did not think up Operation Samson. That is never again in a modern context.

[linux 1659]

5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

By return, do you mean 

1. Allowed to be a citizen of Israel

2. Return to the West Bank

3. Remove Israeli from land and returned to Palestinian in Israel 

4. Remove Israel from land and returned to Palestinian in West Bank 

Follow up.

What shall be the consequences of a ceasefire is broken in the future? 
 

 

 

I don't think citizenship is demanded, just permanent residence. They could turn around and sell that land as well.

As for the breaking the cease fire, just use the justice system sheesh. If a returnee breaks the law put him in prison.

[Nivek 16859]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

I actually have offered solutions (in fact the only solution that in my mind would result in the fewest lives lost) as anyone who has actually read my posts in this thread can attest to, you're just so horny to say that sentence as a part of your personal propaganda universe, you just can't fucking help yourself. I'm not going to type it out again here for you, you're welcome to actually read posts in this thread.

At any rate, it's a stupid fucking ask and you should stop the bullshit conversational gatekeeping. Criticism of one side doesn't require perfect victims on the other, nor does it require solutions to be offered, so you should stop trying to debate people that way.

No human person has any fucking idea how to implement a good solution that results in the fewest human casualties and ridding the world of Hamas and Netanyahu's government. much less any of us dipshits that post on Surly.

Personal propaganda is a nice attempt at alliteration.  Conversational gatekeeping is a nice spin as well on someone asking for realistic solutions not alternative reality based solutions.

What you proposed was that the US and others "erode their support with empathy and diplomacy."   Nice words and sentiment, exactly what they had with the Oslo Accords and look what happened?  Israel handed them weapons to help police themselves and within 5 years the agreement was broken.  What good is diplomacy and empathy when it is one-sided?  What good are agreements/treaties that are not honored?  How long and how much pain should Israelis' put up with while waiting for  Hamas to have a change of heart or to be replaced by something more moderate?  

The idea that changing the variables that lead them down this path is also nice.  What variables are those specifically? How does one change them?

It is nice to claim you are on the side of righteousness and peace and anti-genocide.  Not many people would disagree with this.  The path to this place is where the disagreement happens.   

 

 

 

[956 Worldwide 34440]

1 hour ago, linux said:

German Diesel Electric subs in WWII patrolled all the way to the Caribbean.

I did not think up Operation Samson. That is never again in a modern context.

And in World War II our nuclear delivery system was a B-29 and we flew fleets of B-17s above Germany. What Germany did with their fleet in WWII is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a Dolphin-class boat armed with cruise missiles, not ICBMs, is suitable for a global at-sea deterrent capability. It isn’t, no amount of doubling down will make it one, that platform and system is entirely designed for something else. There is a reason every single nation that attempts to maintain a global at-sea deterrent uses nuclear submarines with ICBMs, only the PRC has even built a (a single) non-nuclear ballistic missile boat and they use it as a testing platform.

You’re also grotesquely misstating the “Samson Option” (not Operation Samson).  That option, which is not explicitly formulated in keeping with nuclear ambiguity, is the ability to engage in a massive retaliatory strike against the adversary  in the event Israel is going to be destroyed conventionally or by other means.  This is not materially different than any other nuclear nation’s deterrence posture is or has been and it’s at the bottom of all deterrence theory itself.  It is not a threat or doctrine to launch a whirlwind of nuclear weapons at friendly or neutral nations. 
 

Finally— claiming that “never again in a modern context” means nuclear blackmail against the entire world is a super-fucked up, unhinged, and untethered to reality thing to say and really tells on you. I shouldn’t have to explain why that is. 
 

 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Personal propaganda is a nice attempt at alliteration.  Conversational gatekeeping is a nice spin as well on someone asking for realistic solutions not alternative reality based solutions.

What you proposed was that the US and others "erode their support with empathy and diplomacy."   Nice words and sentiment, exactly what they had with the Oslo Accords and look what happened?  Israel handed them weapons to help police themselves and within 5 years the agreement was broken.  What good is diplomacy and empathy when it is one-sided?  What good are agreements/treaties that are not honored?  How long and how much pain should Israelis' put up with while waiting for  Hamas to have a change of heart or to be replaced by something more moderate?  

The idea that changing the variables that lead them down this path is also nice.  What variables are those specifically? How does one change them?

It is nice to claim you are on the side of righteousness and peace and anti-genocide.  Not many people would disagree with this.  The path to this place is where the disagreement happens.  

Ok, what's your fucking point? I said very clearly that it's not an easy or fast solution and that it probably wouldn't work because both sides are led by absolute psychos. History very clearly teaches us the lesson that terrorist organizations only really go away when a diplomatic solution is reached. If you destroy them and squeeze Gazans harder, something worse will just take its place.

What's your alternative? Genocide? Because it sounds like you just want to say the solution is genocide but you know what the reaction will be.

It is absolutely hilarious to me that people like you continue to ascribe only bad intentions on the Palestinian side, and only good ones on the Israeli side. Get fucking real, you're just lying to yourself and everyone else at this point. If you want to spout ahistorical propaganda, go fucking post on TexAgs.

[Brisketexan 104605]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

What's your alternative? Genocide? Because it sounds like you just want to say the solution is genocide but you know what the reaction will be.

The solution?  I sure as hell don't say that.

The most likely outcome?  Sure seems like it.  But remember, I think very little of humanity and am convinced that our true nature is depravity and evil.  So, there's that.  One side will successfully genocide the other, and the "winning" side will be cursed for eternity as being genocidal assholes.  And the world will keep spinning, until the next such scenario, and the next, and the next.  We're a shit species.  Get used to it.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The solution?  I sure as hell don't say that.

The most likely outcome?  Sure seems like it.  But remember, I think very little of humanity and am convinced that our true nature is depravity and evil.  So, there's that.  One side will successfully genocide the other, and the "winning" side will be cursed for eternity as being genocidal assholes.  And the world will keep spinning, until the next such scenario, and the next, and the next.  We're a shit species.  Get used to it.

I mean we have the same dim view of humanity, but this is just a coward's way of rationalizing possible future atrocities. I prefer to consider solutions that could work, no matter how unlikely. I'm 40 years old, I'm not ready to give up on my own personal humanity yet.

e: Also, people like him are not looking at it from the same angle as you are. You're convinced humanity is inherently depraved, that's fine. People like him are convinced that Palestinians are simply inferior, that they have a "cultural" problem that totally isn't caused by the circumstances of their existence, etc. I'm sure you can see the parallel I'm trying to draw here.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Brian Fantana

[Brisketexan 104605]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I mean we have the same dim view of humanity, but this is just a coward's way of rationalizing possible future atrocities. I prefer to consider solutions that could work, no matter how unlikely. I'm 40 years old, I'm not ready to give up on my own personal humanity yet.

You'll get there.

I'm not rationalizing shit.  I've just realized that this is what humanity does best, no matter how many times we learn the lesson it doesn't stick, we keep doing it, and we're going to keep doing it, forever and ever.  Makes me want to fucking puke.

But I'm with you to some extent -- I'm a fan of running headlong into a brick wall repeatedly, because fuck that fucking wall.  I'm just sanguine enough to know our chances of ever breaking through are immeasurably small.

[bolverk 29399]

39 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 I'm 40 years old, I'm not ready to give up on my own personal humanity yet.

I think I'm only about a year or two younger (52) than Brisket and can be jaded as fuck too. Trust me, your 40s will wear you down. Shit really seems to start around 43 for whatever reason. This wisdom was imparted to me on my 40th birthday as a warning or maybe a curse.

But I'll tell you something else, remember your humanity; it's all you've got. Also, don't lose your trust in humanity; it's all *we've* got.

I still believe most people are good and have good intentions, but there's that fucking one-third of humanity who are gullible, stupid, greedy, and/or evil out there who fuck shit up.

Edited October 24, 2023 by bolverk

[linux 1659]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And in World War II our nuclear delivery system was a B-29 and we flew fleets of B-17s above Germany. What Germany did with their fleet in WWII is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a Dolphin-class boat armed with cruise missiles, not ICBMs, is suitable for a global at-sea deterrent capability. It isn’t, no amount of doubling down will make it one, that platform and system is entirely designed for something else. There is a reason every single nation that attempts to maintain a global at-sea deterrent uses nuclear submarines with ICBMs, only the PRC has even built a (a single) non-nuclear ballistic missile boat and they use it as a testing platform.

You’re also grotesquely misstating the “Samson Option” (not Operation Samson).  That option, which is not explicitly formulated in keeping with nuclear ambiguity, is the ability to engage in a massive retaliatory strike against the adversary  in the event Israel is going to be destroyed conventionally or by other means.  This is not materially different than any other nuclear nation’s deterrence posture is or has been and it’s at the bottom of all deterrence theory itself.  It is not a threat or doctrine to launch a whirlwind of nuclear weapons at friendly or neutral nations. 
 

Finally— claiming that “never again in a modern context” means nuclear blackmail against the entire world is a super-fucked up, unhinged, and untethered to reality thing to say and really tells on you. I shouldn’t have to explain why that is. 
 

 

Read up on Operation Neuland, U-boats sank like 20+ tankers in the Caribbean thousands of nautical miles away from docks and pens, the idea that Israel can not launch a single salvo in the absolute worst case scenario, is ridiculous, would a SSBN be more successful? hell yeah of course but a suicide run from a Dolphin class that allies chose to ignore. Yeah that is keeping me up at night if Israel really really starts losing.

An SSK running on batteries are the most silent subs in the world.

 

[mchookem 16212]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

The solution?  I sure as hell don't say that.

The most likely outcome?  Sure seems like it.  But remember, I think very little of humanity and am convinced that our true nature is depravity and evil.  So, there's that.  One side will successfully genocide the other, and the "winning" side will be cursed for eternity as being genocidal assholes.  And the world will keep spinning, until the next such scenario, and the next, and the next.  We're a shit species.  Get used to it.

i mean this in all seriousness and not at all snarky...if you truly feel the way you express yourself here, how do you even get out of bed every day? i've seen you post proud and inspiring things about both your children and your wife... how do you even say supportive and encouraging things to them, especially your kids as they are just starting life? do you have to make yourself lie to them so they don't just give up entirely?

part of me feels that way, which is why i'm genuinely asking... and part of me is like 'damn, dude, have a little hope for your kids sake at least'.

sorry, off topic i know. 

[Brisketexan 104605]

25 minutes ago, mchookem said:

i mean this in all seriousness and not at all snarky...if you truly feel the way you express yourself here, how do you even get out of bed every day? i've seen you post proud and inspiring things about both your children and your wife... how do you even say supportive and encouraging things to them, especially your kids as they are just starting life? do you have to make yourself lie to them so they don't just give up entirely?

part of me feels that way, which is why i'm genuinely asking... and part of me is like 'damn, dude, have a little hope for your kids sake at least'.

sorry, off topic i know. 

Because "fuck you," that's why.  Seriously (not you in in particular, I mean the ethos).  Because we should not go gentle into that good night.  Because we should rage against the dying of the light.  It is highly unlikely to do any good.  But I can't help but keep doing it.  Because even a 1 in a million chance is still a chance.

And Michael Sheen recited it brilliantly:

 

[956 Worldwide 34440]

49 minutes ago, linux said:

Read up on Operation Neuland, U-boats sank like 20+ tankers in the Caribbean thousands of nautical miles away from docks and pens, the idea that Israel can not launch a single salvo in the absolute worst case scenario, is ridiculous, would a SSBN be more successful? hell yeah of course but a suicide run from a Dolphin class that allies chose to ignore. Yeah that is keeping me up at night if Israel really really starts losing.

An SSK running on batteries are the most silent subs in the world.

 

This is absolutely some of the most unhinged conspiracy theory shit I’ve a seen on this board. “Israel has a plan to destroy the world and shoot nukes at us if it’s losing a war,” FFS.  What information waters are you swimming in? 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because "fuck you," that's why.  Seriously (not you in in particular, I mean the ethos).  Because we should not go gentle into that good night.  Because we should rage against the dying of the light.  It is highly unlikely to do any good.  But I can't help but keep doing it.  Because even a 1 in a million chance is still a chance.

I don't disagree at all. Not to compare traumas, I'd be curious to know what has happened in your life to make you so jaded. I worked as a victims' assistance coordinator for years and have seen and heard shit that would (and did, me, which is why I am a tech nerd now) give most people crippling nightmares, and yet I still hold out hope for peace.

[Welshy 907]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You'll get there.

I'm not rationalizing shit.  I've just realized that this is what humanity does best, no matter how many times we learn the lesson it doesn't stick, we keep doing it, and we're going to keep doing it, forever and ever.  Makes me want to fucking puke.

But I'm with you to some extent -- I'm a fan of running headlong into a brick wall repeatedly, because fuck that fucking wall.  I'm just sanguine enough to know our chances of ever breaking through are immeasurably small.

 

[TreatyOak 16150]

1 hour ago, mchookem said:

i mean this in all seriousness and not at all snarky...if you truly feel the way you express yourself here, how do you even get out of bed every day? i've seen you post proud and inspiring things about both your children and your wife... how do you even say supportive and encouraging things to them, especially your kids as they are just starting life? do you have to make yourself lie to them so they don't just give up entirely?

part of me feels that way, which is why i'm genuinely asking... and part of me is like 'damn, dude, have a little hope for your kids sake at least'.

sorry, off topic i know. 

Both things can be true. You can hold a very low opinion of mankind based on, well, our entire recorded history*, and still lead a very productive life that makes the world a better place for the people around you. Additionally, believing that man remains a pretty dumb creature incapable of evolving into something better doesn't give you permission to treat people in a shitty way. We should always strive to leave the world a little better place.    

*Of the past 3,400 years, it is believed that humans have been entirely at peace for 268 of them, or just 8 percent of recorded history. Source: NY Times

[Brisketexan 104605]

8 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

*Of the past 3,400 years, it is believed that humans have been entirely at peace for 268 of them, or just 8 percent of recorded history.

....and that's almost certainly because our record-keeping for those 268 years was shit, and missed a war or two or a hundred.