Israel

[Smax 3800]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I can get on board with this, with the caveat that no US funds or weapons should be injected into the situation now and moving forward, and that our supports efforts should be humanitarian focussed in nature.  

 

 

You know its not that simple, stop arms sales and that impacts the pocket books of voters in districts where said weapons are made.

[InkaUtexas 25907]

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Can we also bounce them off the wall at the radical settlement schools teaching that Arabs are subhumans and will be genocided, except for the few that they decide to keep around as slaves. 

Sure, shut them down. And the Madrassas and UN Funded school. teaching the same about the west and Israel at the same time. Funny how those never get mentioned. 

[Anastasis 23469]

4 minutes ago, Smax said:

You know its not that simple, stop arms sales and that impacts the pocket books of voters in districts where said weapons are made.

Merica!

[Brisketexan 105095]

I can get on board with this, with the caveat that no US funds or weapons should be injected into the situation now and moving forward, and that our supports efforts should be humanitarian focussed in nature.  

Cool. Make it no Arab-state provided weapons the other way, and you’ve got a deal.

They seem intent on genociding each other, and I don’t see any realistic chance of stopping them.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

A Israel without U.S. security guarantees and as a reliable defense partner is almost certainly more aggressive towards Palestinians and destabilizing to the region, up to and including nuclear brinkmanship and options. That relationship is fundamentally a restraining and not accelerating factor. 

But this has never fundamentally been about Palestinian lives or peace. 
 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[Huckleberry 32851]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Maybe bounce those numbers up against the wall at GWU where "Glory to the martyrs" of Hamas is being projected.

I really, really, really want to sympathize with the Palestinian cause.  And I do not excuse Israel's complete blockade of Gaza, which is a war crime.  Nor do I excuse any purposeful targeting of civilians by Israel - any specific act of Israel which is determined to be a purposeful targeting of civilians should be treated as a war crime.  And frankly, I very much hope that Israel opts NOT to launch a full ground offensive, and allows the conflict to cool to a simmer, avoiding significant additional loss of life.

But goddamn.  The fucking repeated bullshit from the pro-Palestinians, fucking glorifying and praising Hamas's horrific crimes against humanity, make it functionally impossible to sympathize.  You have me with "the conditions in Gaza and the WB are inhumane," and "rampant Israeli settlements in the WB are intended to torpedo any chance for peace," and "Netanyahu is a fucking war criminal," and dozens of other very valid points and reasons to side with the Palestinian cause....and then fucking person after person, group after group, has to top it off with the fucking turd of "and glory to the martyrs" or "those israelis they grabbed are prisoners, not hostages," or tearing down posters of the hostages, or waving signs showing that jews should go to the wastebin of history, or that Israel should be wiped off the map ("from the river to the sea").  Nope.  Don't care what's underneath, what you're serving is a shit sandwich.  There is no two-state solution that will ever work with that in play.  There is no solution at all with that in play.  It is a plain drawing of a line -- may the party best able to commit genocide win.  What a stupid fucking line to draw, but goddamn, stupid is the order of humanity's day, every day.

So, let's just treat this as a fucking war.  Hamas has to pay for its crimes against humanity. Israel has to be held accountable for any war crimes.  But fuck it, let them fight, let them bring ruin and destruction upon the entire levant, so maybe the last person standing can rule the smoldering rubble.  One side will be wiped out.  The other side will be the evil side that succeeded at genocide.  YAY, what a winning outcome!

I do not excuse it. Here's a list of excuses. 

[Anastasis 23469]

36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool. Make it no Arab-state provided weapons the other way, and you’ve got a deal.

Sure, but we should probably also require the dismantling of the domestic arms industry that we have financially funded in Israel.

[hobbes2702 13032]

2 hours ago, Smax said:

 

 

That plus the images of palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11 make it real hard for me to empathize. The thought of woman and children being killed is unfortunate, but part me feels they brought this on themselves

Wow

[Brisketexan 105095]

How about we just go with the fact that the UN passed a resolution calling for a ceasefire (read: Israel, stand down), but couldn’t pass a resolution condemning the Oct 7 Hamas attacks which were aimed almost entirely at civilians.

Yeah. I don’t see why Israel and Jews worldwide think that they’re vulnerable and the world would just as soon exterminate them.

[Smax 3800]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

Wow

wow what? spit it out

[statsman 5457]

7 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Genocide Is Underway in Gaza. US Leaders Can No Longer Say “We Didn’t Know.”

  Reveal hidden contents

The past two weeks have been very painful for me and my Palestinian American family, but especially for our relatives in Palestine. I’ve had little sleep, and when I did manage to close my eyes, I was unable to stop the nightmares. The horror that is taking place in Gaza became like a noose around my neck preventing me from breathing. I couldn’t help but think of all the children who lost their parents, their homes, and who can’t understand why no one in the world cares about them and why no one is coming to their rescue. Close to half the population of Gaza was born under the 17-year-long suffocating siege and have known nothing but misery and extreme hardship.

The death toll from Israel’s aerial bombardment has surpassed 7000, including 3000 children, according to Palestinian health authorities. Fifty-one percent of all homes in Gaza have now been destroyed, and over 1.4 million Palestinians have been displaced from their homes in northern Gaza, according to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. The dire, inhumane consequences of Israel’s halting deliveries of food, water, fuel, electricity and medicine will take their toll and will result in the death of an even larger number of Palestinian children and civilians in the coming days.

“Hospitals have lost their ability to treat [patients], and medical teams are treating the patients with very limited capabilities,” Palestinian health ministry spokesperson Ashraf Al-Qudra said in an interview.

Under the watchful eye of world leaders who continue to repeat the same mantra that “Israel has the right to defend itself” but are indifferent to Palestinians and their right to resist their occupation and blockade, Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland, the former head of the Israel National Security Council, said in Israeli media, “Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal. Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”

“Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water [in Gaza], there will only be destruction,” said Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, head of the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories. “You wanted hell, you will get hell.”

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken’s statement at yesterday’s UN Security Council session that the UN “must affirm the right of any nation to defend itself and to prevent such harm from repeating itself,” simply adds fuel to the fire. Every government official in the U.S., the U.K. and the EU who isn’t calling for a ceasefire and an end to the carnage should be held accountable for their part in this genocide. Sending billions of dollars in missiles and weapons to the Israeli military in order to mercilessly kill and ethnically cleanse more Palestinians amplifies the U.S.’s complicity in the atrocities. The tragic loss of Israeli lives on October 7 should not be used as a pretext to launch this genocidal campaign against Palestinians in Gaza.

Israel is actively implementing a strategy I have called the “out-of-state” solution. This strategy aims to transfer Palestinians — or keep terrorizing and oppressing them until they give up and leave — to neighboring Arab countries, dispossessing them of their homeland. This is what we are witnessing in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem before our very eyes.

According to the Palestine Ministry of Health in Ramallah, Israel Defense Forces and armed settlers have killed at least 100 Palestinians in the West Bank and displaced at least 13 Palestinian communities in the last two weeks.

The two-state solution promised to Palestinians during the Oslo Accords is no longer possible; the chances of a one-state solution with equal citizenship rights for everyone are even slimmer, since Zionists insist on keeping Israel a Jewish state with democratic rights for Jews only.

What is left — and what many in the new extremist Israeli government are in favor of — is driving as many Palestinians as possible out of Israel/Palestine.

The Netanyahu government made clear its intention to commit genocide against the Palestinians and is counting on people around the world becoming numb as the death toll rises.

During French President Emmanuel Macron’s recent visit to Israel, Netanyahu said that the fight “was a battle between the ‘axis of evil’ and ‘the free world’.… This battle is not merely our own … it’s everybody’s battle.” Macron’s visit to Israel completes the series of pilgrimages to Israel by prominent Western leaders renewing their pledges of allegiance to the Israeli state and giving it the green light for its ground offensive.

But, as we’ve seen time and time again, Palestinians are resilient and are determined to keep their struggle alive, no matter how severe Israeli attempts are at their erasure.

There is a newly invigorated global grassroots movement for justice in the Arab and Muslim world as we’ve seen from the massive demonstrations in Amman, Cairo, Beirut, and elsewhere. Palestine is on the minds of the masses in Europe, too. From Paris — in defiance of a pro-Palestinian protest ban — to Dublin, London, Edinburgh and Geneva, the voices of Palestinian supporters chanting “Free Free Palestine” are reverberating in cities throughout the Western world. And in Washington, D.C. we heard the voices of American Jews mobilizing in solidarity with Palestinians and loudly declaring “Not In Our Name” as they marched to Capitol Hill and called on their representatives to demand an immediate ceasefire. On October 19, they shut down Congress to draw attention to the U.S. complicity in Israel’s ongoing oppression of Palestinians.

Meanwhile, Palestinians in spaces ranging from cultural institutions to college campuses to media outlets are being silenced, harassed and discriminated against.

My latest personal experience of this occurred in Germany, where I spent this past week attending the Frankfurter Buchmesse, or Frankfurt Book Fair (FBF). Upon my arrival in Frankfurt, I was greeted by an overwhelming display of Israeli flags everywhere — at the airport, on train ticket machines, on government buildings. Why, I wondered? Is it because Germany is still atoning for its past crimes? The next morning, I woke up to a shocking statement by the FBF Director Juergen Boos that said: “We want to make Jewish and Israeli voices especially visible at the book fair.… Frankfurter Buchmesse stands with complete solidarity on the side of Israel.”

As if this was not bad enough coming from a renowned institution that was celebrating its 75th anniversary — and one that prides itself on promoting cultural exchange and freedom of expression — the FBF followed its one-sided statement by announcing a decision to cancel the award ceremony of the LiBeraturpreis 2023 “due to the war in Israel.” Palestinian writer Adania Shibli won the German literature prize this year. Contrary to what The New York Times initially reported, Shibli, whose first two novels Touch and We Are Equally Far Away from Love were released by Interlink Publishing, (the Massachusetts-based, independent publishing house that I founded), did not agree to the cancellation.

In light of these announcements and the FBF’s attempt to silence Palestinian voices, many exhibitors — Indonesia’s collective stand, Malaysia’s collective stand, the Arab Publishers Association, the Sharjah Book authority, and others — decided to withdraw their participation as a sign of protest, leaving behind many empty booths. In a statement, the Sharjah Book Authority, organizer of the world’s third-largest book fair, said: “Given the recent announcement by the organizers of the Frankfurt Book Fair, we have decided to withdraw our participation this year. We champion the role of culture and books to encourage dialogue and understanding between people. We believe that this role is more important now than ever.”

I, too, was compelled to withdraw from my scheduled talk sponsored by the Frankfurt Book Fair, where I was initially asked to participate in a discussion about the role of literature-in-translation in promoting cross-cultural understanding and knowledge. How could I participate in such a discussion when the FBF had just silenced an author whose novels we translated into English simply because she is Palestinian?

The Simon Wiesenthal Centre, which claims to monitor the Frankfurt Book Fair each year for books that foment “antisemitism and hate” apparently did not like the Palestine-related books displayed on our stand and suggested that our publishing house, Interlink Publishing, “be denied access, in the spirit of the Fair’s rules.” The center called several of our titles “in the lineage of the so-called ‘self-hating’ Jews.” While the “Hate Prize” went to a Turkish publisher, Timas Publishing Group, the “Runner-Up Prize” is shared by our publishing house Interlink Publishing and French publisher La Fabrique “for their combined effort to demonize Israel and indulge in antisemitism.”

The silencing of Palestinian voices and their supporters is not restricted to Germany. It is happening here in the United States, in mainstream media and on college campuses. The New York City cultural institution known as the 92nd Street Y canceled an event with author Viet Thanh Nguyen after he signed an open letter critical of Israel. As a result, several authors — including Saidiya Hartman, Christina Sharpe and Andrea Long Chu — have canceled their own upcoming talks at the 92nd Street Y. Similarly, the Hilton Houston Post Oak Hotel canceled its contract to host the upcoming conference of the U.S. Campaign for Palestinian Rights scheduled to take place on October 27-29. You can read the full press release here. And according to a report in Arab News, the U.S. news network MSNBC suspended Muslim anchors Mehdi Hasan, Ayman Mohyeldin and Ali Velshi amid the Israeli war in Gaza. On October 26, 57 UMass Amherst students were arrested for democratic dissent.

The world’s failure to challenge Israel’s ongoing oppression, occupation, apartheid and genocidal tactics against Palestinians provides the context for what is taking place now. Fearing a repeat of their mass displacement 75 years ago, many Palestinians in Gaza are opting to stay where they are and risk death. Israel’s message to the people of Gaza to leave or die is being ignored because Palestinians know that if they leave, they will not be able to return.

There is an urgent need for a ceasefire to stop the deliberate mass killing of Palestinians, which is in flagrant violation of international law. The genocide is underway. We can no longer say that we didn’t know.

https://truthout.org/articles/genocide-is-underway-in-gaza-us-leaders-can-no-longer-say-we-didnt-know/

When will Hamas release the hostages?

 You want Israel to act to relieve civilian suffering? That is a simple and reasonable thing to expect Hamas to do. 
 
 

Edited October 28, 2023 by statsman

[linux 1660]

The bloodlust is rising and it is disgusting, only a ceasefire can prevent dead children and none of the logic I read has explained how they are responsible for anything.

[TKthunder2 4989]

One side is murdering indiscriminately, raping teenagers, beheading babies, kidnapping elderly, torturing, calling families from loved ones phones and live streaming people from their grandmother’s Facebook account, launching rockets daily towards civilian populations, while oppressing and hiding behind their own civilian population in homes, schools, hospitals, and places of worship, diverting all money to the continuation of war crimes and then pointing them lying about every conceivable fact in order to condemn their “oppressors” and claiming “genocide” of themselves while actually publicly proclaiming their goal is genocide of the other.

Hamas needs to go. Israel has no choice here.

[linux 1660]

5 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

One side is murdering indiscriminately, raping teenagers, beheading babies, kidnapping elderly, torturing, calling families from loved ones phones and live streaming people from their grandmother’s Facebook account, launching rockets daily towards civilian populations, while oppressing and hiding behind their own civilian population in homes, schools, hospitals, and places of worship, diverting all money to the continuation of war crimes and then pointing them lying about every conceivable fact in order to condemn their “oppressors” and claiming “genocide” of themselves while actually publicly proclaiming their goal is genocide of the other.

Hamas needs to go. Israel has no choice here.

If they can find a solution without killing babies and children then sure.

If they can't they have no excuse.

[TKthunder2 4989]

1 minute ago, linux said:

If they can find a solution without killing babies and children then sure.

If they can't they have no excuse.

Hamas literally beheaded multiple babies INTENTIONALLY! That was the fucking purpose that they had in mind when they did it. Not by accident or unintentionally by happenstance. They gave no warnings because that was their FUCKING GOAL.

Israel warns the residents of Gaza to leave an area that they will be bombing/invading. Hamas blocks civilians from leaving and innocent people are killed. Hamas puts up pictures of these deaths and yells at evil Israel.

There is no way to win. Hamas will not stop. They brutally attack and then call for peace and hide behind civilians and use their death (which they intentionally put in harms way) to advance their goals. This isn’t fucking War Games where Israel can chose not to play. Hamas is using morality and compassion as a weapon, and as soon as they get a cease fire they begin planning for their next attack.

Let’s not even get into how completely idiotic it is to call for a cease fire after murders over 1000 people while still holding hostages and firing rockets at civilians populations every day.

[linux 1660]

Just now, TKthunder2 said:

There is no way to win. Hamas will not stop. They brutally attack and then call for peace and hide behind civilians and use their death (which they intentionally put in harms way) to advance their goals. This isn’t fucking War Games where Israel can chose not to play. Hamas is using morality and compassion as a weapon, and as soon as they get a cease fire they begin planning for their next attack.

What a failure of imagination, if they can't stop it without killing children they should be opposed period.

[TKthunder2 4989]

Just now, linux said:

What a failure of imagination, if they can't stop it without killing children they should be opposed period.

Hamas kills Israeli children intentionally and then hides behind Palestinian children for protection.

If Israel acts children die, if Israel does nothing children die.

If Israel acts they can end this cycle of dead children. If Israel does nothing this cycle will continue indefinitely.

It is a horrendous situation all around, but this cycle cannot continue.

Hamas existence = dead children

[linux 1660]

2 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Hamas kills Israeli children intentionally and then hides behind Palestinian children for protection.

If Israel acts children die, if Israel does nothing children die.

If Israel acts they can end this cycle of dead children. If Israel does nothing this cycle will continue indefinitely.

It is a horrendous situation all around, but this cycle cannot continue.

Hamas existence = dead children

That is extremely wrong however, Israel has not done much if anything to ever end a cycle.

Killing children with a dumbass plan is murder, plain and simple. It is butchering innocents.

Things Israel can do to actually end the slaughter is actually putting their army outside Gaza, instead of it going into the WB.

[hobbes2702 13032]

7 hours ago, Smax said:

wow what? spit it out

“The thought of woman and children being killed is unfortunate, but part me feels they brought this on themselves”

 

The women and children just had it coming huh

[Anastasis 23469]

The quoted sounds like something a terrorist sympathizer would say. 

[statsman 5457]

Israel’s first concern is their children, maybe a couple dozen, taken and held hostage in Gaza. That is their first concern, and it should be. 
 
Think about them, Linux. Try to find a little sympathy for the Jewish children,  terrified and captive. Go ahead, denounce Hamas as cruel monsters. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

23 minutes ago, statsman said:

Israel’s first concern is their children, maybe a couple dozen, taken and held hostage in Gaza. That is their first concern, and it should be. 
 
Think about them, Linux. Try to find a little sympathy for the Jewish children,  terrified and captive. Go ahead, denounce Hamas as cruel monsters. 

Oh I see the low end of the IQ bell curve is still playing the Do You Condemn game

[statsman 5457]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Oh I see the low end of the IQ bell curve is still playing the Do You Condemn game

Ha-ha! You got me! I really am not the brightest. Since you have this all figured out, what should Israel do- its most hostile neighbors killing and stealing its citizens, and taking harbor in civilian population centers?

[Brisketexan 105095]

Oh I see the low end of the IQ bell curve is still playing the Do You Condemn game

The UN played that game. Humanity lost.
It’s fucking mind boggling that they can demand a ceasefire (because killing civilians is bad), but can’t pass a resolution to condemn the October 7 attacks (because killing Israeli/Jewish civilians…well, that’s cool).

If you wonder why Israel and Jews aren’t interested in doing what outsiders say, the above is a really good example of why that is the case.

You want us to understand the anger and despair of Palestinians, and maybe give them a pass on how they lash out. But we gotta look right past the fact that the body that best reflects world opinion says “butchering Israelis is cool,” and also “Israel should cease any military response to the butchering of its civilians,” and how Israel and Jews rightly perceive that. It’s a fucking problem, man. An unsolvable one, apparently.

[Smax 3800]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

“The thought of woman and children being killed is unfortunate, but part me feels they brought this on themselves”

 

The women and children just had it coming huh

 

maybe not directly but yes, as long as palestinians allow hamas to exists in its current capacity, they deserve every retaliatory strike Israel deems fitting. We laid waste to two separate countries when we were attacked, Israel is showing enormous restraint right now. As is the US seeing how they took American hostages too

[David Dennison 18854]

14 minutes ago, Smax said:

maybe not directly but yes, as long as palestinians allow hamas to exists in its current capacity, they deserve every retaliatory strike Israel deems fitting. We laid waste to two separate countries when we were attacked, Israel is showing enormous restraint right now. As is the US seeing how they took American hostages too

And lost.

 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

58 minutes ago, statsman said:

Ha-ha! You got me! I really am not the brightest. Since you have this all figured out, what should Israel do- its most hostile neighbors killing and stealing its citizens, and taking harbor in civilian population centers?

I'm not engaging in this conversation with you. We've been over and over this and around and around and back again. If you have anything new to say instead of taking the usual line of demanding perfect solutions from those of us standing up for Palestinians, then we can talk.

Otherwise, fuck yourself. I'm not rehashing what's been discussed over and over in this thread already.

[hobbes2702 13032]

39 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

maybe not directly but yes, as long as palestinians allow hamas to exists in its current capacity, they deserve every retaliatory strike Israel deems fitting. We laid waste to two separate countries when we were attacked, Israel is showing enormous restraint right now. As is the US seeing how they took American hostages too

Israel and the US should show restraint and protect as much innocent life as possible. That’s the job.
You think the women and children have it coming because they haven’t overthrown the militaristic, terrorist organization that currently holds power. That’s insane and just some other way to justify killing innocent people.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

The UN played that game. Humanity lost.
It’s fucking mind boggling that they can demand a ceasefire (because killing civilians is bad), but can’t pass a resolution to condemn the October 7 attacks (because killing Israeli/Jewish civilians…well, that’s cool).

If you wonder why Israel and Jews aren’t interested in doing what outsiders say, the above is a really good example of why that is the case.

You want us to understand the anger and despair of Palestinians, and maybe give them a pass on how they lash out. But we gotta look right past the fact that the body that best reflects world opinion says “butchering Israelis is cool,” and also “Israel should cease any military response to the butchering of its civilians,” and how Israel and Jews rightly perceive that. It’s a fucking problem, man. An unsolvable one, apparently.

I assure you, my only desire is to not see anyone genocided or be forced to live under the conditions Gazans or Palestinians living in the West Bank have been and currently do, ever again.

Believe me, those of us advocating for people like you to recognize the humanity and dignity of Palestinians see exactly that in the Israeli people, and understand why Jews need to feel and be safe in this world.

I don't give a fuck about discussing UN dysfunction, it is a long playing broken record at this point. They don't fucking reflect world opinion on anything.

The Hamas attack already happened, everyone with a brain and heart condemns it, further condemnations don't fucking do anything but make Westerners feel better. A ceasefire could stop the killing, at least for now.

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

I assure you, my only desire is to not see anyone genocided or be forced to live under the conditions Gazans or Palestinians living in the West Bank have been and currently do, ever again.
Believe me, those of us advocating for people like you to recognize the humanity and dignity of Palestinians see exactly that in the Israeli people, and understand why Jews need to feel and be safe in this world.
I don't give a fuck about discussing UN dysfunction, it is a long playing broken record at this point. They don't fucking reflect world opinion on anything.
The Hamas attack already happened, everyone with a brain and heart condemns it, further condemnations don't fucking do anything but make Westerners feel better. A ceasefire could stop the killing, at least for now.
 

Except everyone does not condemn the Hamas attack. What you are saying is false. And there is a REASON for that: a deep strain of antisemitism, including a desire to exterminate Jews, that runs around the world. Your hand-waving past that misses a crucial point. Every day as a Jew is a pivot point, is a day the next desired (and it IS desired) genocide starts. Being born a Jew is a precarious existence. Always.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Except everyone does not condemn the Hamas attack. What you are saying is false. And there is a REASON for that: a deep strain of antisemitism, including a desire to exterminate Jews, that runs around the world. Your hand-waving past that misses a crucial point. Every day as a Jew is a pivot point, is a day the next desired (and it IS desired) genocide starts. Being born a Jew is a precarious existence. Always.

I did not say everyone, mother fucker read my words. I swear to god I really don't want to have to put you on ignore for repeatedly, seemingly on purpose, twisting my words for no fucking good reason.

Repeatedly yelling into the void condemning the attack, while right, isn't going to make Nazis, extremist fundamentalist Muslim groups, or anyone else that hates Jews stop and think "well dang, maybe we're wrong here..."

God damn use that big brain of yours

[statsman 5457]

19 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not engaging in this conversation with you. We've been over and over this and around and around and back again. If you have anything new to say instead of taking the usual line of demanding perfect solutions from those of us standing up for Palestinians, then we can talk.

Otherwise, fuck yourself. I'm not rehashing what's been discussed over and over in this thread already.

 

12 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Israel and the US should show restraint and protect as much innocent life as possible. That’s the job.
You think the women and children have it coming because they haven’t overthrown the militaristic, terrorist organization that currently holds power. That’s insane and just some other way to justify killing innocent people.

This is America. This moral dilemma has already been solved. 
 
The US was once faced with a vicious enemy that claimed not only willingness to die for their emperor, but also a desire to die in battle for their emperor. This enemy was sheltered among innocent civilian population centers. 
 
The US solved this Gordian knot by nuking two innocent civilian population centers, getting it through their thick skulls that they could all die, without killing any more US soldiers, and not accomplishing anything. 
 
This isn’t hard math. The Palestinians and their supporters are gambling that their foes possess more humanity and morality, more compassion than they do. History shows that’s a dumb bet. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

3 hours ago, statsman said:

Israel’s first concern is their children, maybe a couple dozen, taken and held hostage in Gaza. That is their first concern, and it should be. 
 
Think about them, Linux. Try to find a little sympathy for the Jewish children,  terrified and captive. Go ahead, denounce Hamas as cruel monsters. 

What you have to understand is that the take here is basically this: Israel not only needs to care about Palestinian civilians more than Hamas does, but Israel should care more about Palestinian civilians more than ISRAELI civilians. 
 

An absurd standard. 

[hobbes2702 13032]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

What you have to understand is that the take here is basically this: Israel not only needs to care about Palestinian civilians more than Hamas does, but Israel should care more about Palestinian civilians more than ISRAELI civilians. 
 

An absurd standard. 

Yea literally no one is saying that but have fun.

And fyi, Israel should care more about both Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians more than Hamas does. It’s not some crazy thing to think that the Israeli gov should have more respect for civilian life than the terrorist org on the other side.

Edited October 28, 2023 by hobbes2702

[Smax 3800]

11 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Israel and the US should show restraint and protect as much innocent life as possible. That’s the job.
You think the women and children have it coming because they haven’t overthrown the militaristic, terrorist organization that currently holds power. That’s insane and just some other way to justify killing innocent people.

1. No thats not the job, the job is to defend and to win

2. No I think ALL palestinians are responsible

3. The justification was Oct 7 when hamas invaded and targeted civilians, time for the gloves to come off. People who grow up in war and brute force only respond to war and brute force. This is 3 weeks in, hostages haven't been released, rockets continue to hit civilian buildings in Israel, when is it enough?

The world is an ugly place, we have it so easy here in the usa and the majority of our population is fucking clueless as to how things on this rock actually work. It isnt kumbaya lets hold hands hug this out and be friends. 

Israel continues to warn civilians of incoming strikes, what palestinians do with that info is up to them, if they don't leave and end up getting killed, don't poke the bear

 

I posted this on the other thread and got little traction maybe 6 mins is too long for some focus but shes spot on IMO

 

 

 

[hobbes2702 13032]

Just now, Smax said:

1. No thats not the job, the job is to defend and to win

2. No I think ALL palestinians are responsible

3. The justification was Oct 7 when hamas invaded and targeted civilians, time for the gloves to come off. People who grow up in war and brute force only respond to war and brute force. This is 3 weeks in, hostages haven't been released, rockets continue to hit civilian buildings in Israel, when is it enough?

The world is an ugly place, we have it so easy here in the usa and the majority of our population is fucking clueless as to how things on this rock actually work. It isnt kumbaya lets hold hands hug this out and be friends. 

Israel continues to warn civilians of incoming strikes, what palestinians do with that info is up to them, if they don't leave and end up getting killed, don't poke the bear

 

I posted this on the other thread and got little traction maybe 6 mins is too long for some focus but shes spot on IMO

 

 

 

Awesome. You support genocide. It shouldn’t be a shock based on who you’ve shown yourself to be.

[InkaUtexas 25907]

Questions for the board.

What would the Ceasefire look like?

What are the guarantees no new weapons go in?

Will Hamas allow Aid agencies to deliver direct to the population? 

Are we talking about a UN Peacekeeping force? 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

7 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yea literally no one is saying that but have fun.

And fyi, Israel should care more about both Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians more than Hamas does. It’s not some crazy thing to think that the Israeli gov should have more respect for civilian life than the terrorist org on the other side.

This is exactly what calls for a ceasefire amount to: Hamas, which just killed thousands of Israelis and will do so again, gets to regroup, rearm, remain in place, and keep hundreds of hostages. It is an ask for Israel to accept deaths and hostage taking of their own citizens now and in the future because the Palestinian death toll is too high as Hamas shelters among them. 

[RomaVicta 29905]

7 minutes ago, Smax said:

The world is an ugly place, we have it so easy here in the usa and the majority of our population is fucking clueless as to how things on this rock actually work. It isnt kumbaya lets hold hands hug this out and be friends. 

I'm sure your grasp of the world is based in solid experience with war, suffering, and brutality. Or maybe it's just tired posturing by someone just as naive as the illusory Kumbaya singers your tritely describe.

Gloves off. Hard world. Gotta be a man. Gotta slaughter them Palestinians so you can get your vicarious macho on. 

To again paraphrase Henry Rollins:

You say it's a mans world. Well, this man's world is a poorly run carnage fest.

I don't know what the solutions are in the MidEast, but the United States should not be supporting what Israel is doing. No person is going to look back on this and say, "Yep, the Israeli Army was doing what had to be done by massive bombing and a ground assault on a densely populated urban landscape." 

This is an assault wholly based on emotion, political ambition, and blood lust.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.

We should only be involved in humanitarian assistance and the protection of non-combatants no matter where they are located. Period.

[statsman 5457]

15 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Awesome. You support genocide. It shouldn’t be a shock based on who you’ve shown yourself to be.

Have you ever thought that Hamas is committing genocide on the Palestinian people? That the best chance for Palestinian survival is for Hamas to be eradicated, as soon as possible?

Edited October 28, 2023 by statsman

[RomaVicta 29905]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Questions for the board.

What would the Ceasefire look like?

What are the guarantees no new weapons go in?

Will Hamas allow Aid agencies to deliver direct to the population? 

Are we talking about a UN Peacekeeping force? 

Also, again, my lack of imagination for a solution to these problems is not a reason to blow up Gaza. That is not a solution either. Why does this have to be decided in a day to prevent the slaughter to come?

Some very smart people around here are running on emotion and seemingly cultivating sweet outrage to justify further outrages. 

[hobbes2702 13032]

1 minute ago, statsman said:

Have you ever thought that Hamas is committing genocide on the Palestinian people?

Yes. Why is this so difficult for you

[InkaUtexas 25907]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

Also, again, my lack of imagination for a solution to these problems is not a reason to blow up Gaza. That is not a solution either. Why does this have to be decided in a day to prevent the slaughter to come?

Some very smart people around here are running on emotion and seemingly cultivating sweet outrage to justify further outrages. 

I am really interested. I have my thoughts. And have seen ceasefires go both ways. Some (few) work unless there is a force to control, monitor, etc. For instance, there is a peacekeeping mandate in Lebanon, but sides continue to arm. One UN Base was hit today. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

7 minutes ago, statsman said:

Have you ever thought that Hamas is committing genocide on the Palestinian people? That the best chance for Palestinian survival is for Hamas to be eradicated, as soon as possible?

No fucking shit, have you ready ANY of this thread other than like, the last 2 pages? This is how I know you're an unserious person. Who in this thread is advocating for fucking Hamas?

Please, I am begging you, re-wrinkle your fucking brain.

[David Dennison 18854]

52 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Except everyone does not condemn the Hamas attack. What you are saying is false. And there is a REASON for that: a deep strain of antisemitism, including a desire to exterminate Jews, that runs around the world. Your hand-waving past that misses a crucial point. Every day as a Jew is a pivot point, is a day the next desired (and it IS desired) genocide starts. Being born a Jew is a precarious existence. Always.

All things considered in the year 2023, what's more precarious, being born a Jew or being born a Palestinian?

[956 Worldwide 34705]

32 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I'm sure your grasp of the world is based in solid experience with war, suffering, and brutality. Or maybe it's just tired posturing by someone just as naive as the illusory Kumbaya singers your tritely describe.

Gloves off. Hard world. Gotta be a man. Gotta slaughter them Palestinians so you can get your vicarious macho on. 

To again paraphrase Henry Rollins:

You say it's a mans world. Well, this man's world is a poorly run carnage fest.

I don't know what the solutions are in the MidEast, but the United States should not be supporting what Israel is doing. No person is going to look back on this and say, "Yep, the Israeli Army was doing what had to be done by massive bombing and a ground assault on a densely populated urban landscape." 

This is an assault wholly based on emotion, political ambition, and blood lust.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.

We should only be involved in humanitarian assistance and the protection of non-combatants no matter where they are located. Period.

While I understand the emotional resonance here, let’s distill down what this means: If your and well-organized adversary is based out of cities, you have to just let them exist and attack you.
 

There is no police action or low-intensity solution to Hamas, they control a well-armed and organized semi-regular force inside of cities and that is committed to using civilian infrastructure as their bases of operations. There is no option for Israel to choose different terrain.  A ceasefire is not an option, ceasefires exist to give space to diplomatic solutions which neither side has expressed a willingness for.

Incidentally, it is not a war crime to target military infrastructure and targets that are near or co-located with civilian infrastructure.  It is a war-crime to place military infrastructure in those areas, although of course Hamas is not party to those agreements. Every accusation is a confession absolutely applies here. 
 

“If your adversary is committed to doing war crimes, you just have to let them win,” is not a reasonable standard to expect any state to accept. 

[statsman 5457]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

While I understand the emotional resonance here, let’s distill down what this means: If your and well-organized adversary is based out of cities, you have to just let them exist and attack you.
 

There is no police action or low-intensity solution to Hamas, they control a well-armed and organized semi-regular force inside of cities and that is committed to using civilian infrastructure as their bases of operations. There is no option for Israel to choose different terrain.  A ceasefire is not an option, ceasefires exist to give space to diplomatic solutions which neither side has expressed a willingness for.

Incidentally, it is not a war crime to target military infrastructure and targets that are near or co-located with civilian infrastructure.  It is a war-crime to place military infrastructure in those areas, although of course Hamas is not party to those agreements. Every accusation is a confession absolutely applies here. 
 

“If your adversary is committed to doing war crimes, you just have to let them win,” is not a reasonable standard to expect any state to accept. 

I have been called every kind of idiot for not understanding what they expect Israel to do, while they refuse to spell it out. I guess, Israel is to only use bombs that kill combatants, and not the innocent civilians next door? The soldiers are to use the rifles that only shoot bullets at the combatants, and are set to only stun the human shields?

I’m starting to think that there is a quiet part they don’t want to say out loud. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by statsman

[hobbes2702 13032]

5 minutes ago, statsman said:

I have been called every kind of idiot for not understanding what they expect Israel to do, while they refuse to spell it out. I guess, Israel is to only use bombs that kill combatants, and not the innocent civilians next door? The soldiers are to use the rifles that only shoot bullets at the combatants, and are set to only stun the human shields?

I’m starting to think that there is a quiet part they don’t want to say out loud. 

Read the thread. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

Israel is to let Hamas attack them and hope the peaceful Palestinian citizens that don’t support Hamas remove Hamas from power? 

I don’t get it 

 

 

[nbmishoid 949]

Whether legal is not the point.  Yes, if Isreal gets 100 killed, then killing 10,000 does not make the world nor heaven a better place.  What one can do and should do are not the same.