Israel

[Skipper 6133]

11 hours ago, linux said:

The bloodlust is rising and it is disgusting, only a ceasefire can prevent dead children and none of the logic I read has explained how they are responsible for anything.

Pretty sure there was a ceasefire dude.  Then a bunch of subhuman scum crossed the border and indiscriminately shot unarmed men, women and children point blank.   So here we are.  I'm sure Hamas would LOVE a ceasefire so they can ramp up and do the same fucking thing again.  Because a material portion of that populations sole goal in life is killing as many jews as they can.  Period.  That's it.  That's what they live for.   Fuck them.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

4 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Pretty sure there was a ceasefire dude.  Then a bunch of subhuman scum crossed the border and indiscriminately shot unarmed men, women and children point blank.   So here we are.  I'm sure Hamas would LOVE a ceasefire so they can ramp up and do the same fucking thing again.  Because a material portion of that populations sole goal in life is killing as many jews as they can.  Period.  That's it.  That's what they live for.   Fuck them.

There wasn’t even really a ceasefire. The Israelis sat behind their Iron Dome and accepted that it wouldn’t work perfectly (which means a certain amount of civilian death), because the costs of a military solution to Hamas wouldn’t be worth it.  Israel didn’t change that status quo, Hamas did.

 

[Skipper 6133]

I never had a big chunk of the "left" supporting Hamas (directly or indirectly, whatever, that's exactly what it is) and a big chunk of the "right" supporting Russia and Putin on my 2023 bingo card.  What a weird fucking timeline we live in.

[nbmishoid 949]

  No big chunk is supporting Hamas.   A big chunk is worried about escalation and other unwanted outcomes.  956 has the equation.  How many deaths will counter the Israeli deaths.   There is a worry the number gets too high.  Or is it not possible for it to get too high?

[David Dennison 18854]

12 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I never had a big chunk of the "left" supporting Hamas (directly or indirectly, whatever, that's exactly what it is) and a big chunk of the "right" supporting Russia and Putin on my 2023 bingo card.  What a weird fucking timeline we live in.

Meaning what, exactly?

[Skipper 6133]

12 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Meaning what, exactly?

Chanting or parroting shit like "from the river to the sea" either being so ignorant that they don't know what that means or knowing damn well what it means.   Whatever it is.  It's disgusting.

[David Dennison 18854]

Just now, Skipper said:

Chanting or parroting shit like "from the river to the sea" either being so ignorant that they don't know what that means or knowing damn well what it means.   Whatever it is.  It's disgusting.

Yeah, that's not most of the left.

[bernorange 8359]

This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

[David Dennison 18854]

Just now, bernorange said:

This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

[Brian Fantana 6685]

9 minutes ago, bernorange said:

This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

Literally no one is supporting Hamas lmao this is such a bad lie you nerds keep repeating.

Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians any more than Netanyahu represents all Jews, it's such a stupid fucking argument.

[hobbes2702 13032]

1 hour ago, Skipper said:

I never had a big chunk of the "left" supporting Hamas (directly or indirectly, whatever, that's exactly what it is) and a big chunk of the "right" supporting Russia and Putin on my 2023 bingo card.  What a weird fucking timeline we live in.

No one is supporting Hamas but keep fucking that chicken 

[Neonmoon 38129]

39 minutes ago, bernorange said:

This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

Who is supporting Hamas?

The main “argument” is different interpretations of actions that should/should not be taken to remove Hamas. Mixed in with different interpretations of culpability due to historical actions 

 

[Skipper 6133]

38 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Literally no one is supporting Hamas lmao this is such a bad lie you nerds keep repeating.

Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians any more than Netanyahu represents all Jews, it's such a stupid fucking argument.

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   You don't just get to start a war by invading another country and intentionally killing women and children civillians point blank and call a time out.  That's not how the world works.    

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

It’s not the majority by any means, but I have seen quite a few “I support resistance by any means necessary” comments from American leftists.

It’s essential to emphasize the difference between Hamas and Palestine, but you guys gotta know what is being said out there before you flatly deny it.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

10 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   You don't just get to start a war by invading another country and intentionally killing women and children civillians point blank and call a time out.  That's not how the world works.    

You're a fucking idiot. Wanting less people to die is not supporting Hamas no matter how much you want it to be. Fuck off, troll.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

11 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It’s not the majority by any means, but I have seen quite a few “I support resistance by any means necessary” comments from American leftists.

It’s essential to emphasize the difference between Hamas and Palestine, but you guys gotta know what is being said out there before you flatly deny it.

Ok, who is doing that in this thread? People keep getting accused of it here without evidence. That doesn't seem to bother you, though, as long as there is someone to scold.

[David Dennison 18854]

13 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   You don't just get to start a war by invading another country and intentionally killing women and children civillians point blank and call a time out.  That's not how the world works.    

Not only is that silly, it's counterproductive.

[Da Fino 2780]

25 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're a fucking idiot. Wanting less people to die is not supporting Hamas no matter how much you want it to be. Fuck off, troll.

Fewer…you fucking idiot. 

[statsman 5457]

I’m actually not opposed to a cease fire. I can see it as an element In resolution of this. 
 
I can’t see why any serious person can call for a ceasefire in THIS WAR THAT HAMAS STARTED without also calling for an immediate release of all of the hostages. Those people, the weakest attacked, are terrified and their families are terrified. 
 
I don’t see how anyone with a speck of empathy can say, “Israel, let’s slow your roll. Let calmer heads prevail. The hostages? Let’s not bring them into the equation. They’re just not a factor that helps.”

I know taking them was Hamas’ strategy to keep Israel from attacking, saying they would kill them if the IDF attacked. They need to release them. That’s a no-brainer precursor to a cease fire. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by statsman

[Macklemore 2876]

52 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're a fucking idiot. Wanting less people to die is not supporting Hamas no matter how much you want it to be. Fuck off, troll.

Why does this Tceh tard asshole have carte blanche to launch personal attacks that are aimed to silence discussion from posters he disagrees with. Skipper is no troll you fucking idiot. He has been around since hornfans. Fantana needs to be banned from CR.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Macklemore

[956 Worldwide 34705]

A ceasefire is not an outcome neutral proposition.  A ceasefire now leaves Hamas in the position of achieving quite a bit of what they want and will leave Israel in a position where it is much more difficult to achieve what they want (eliminating Hamas).  You can say you deplore Hamas and what they did, but a refusal to acknowledge that what you’re asking for will help them relative to the party they attacked is exactly why there’s a lot of suspicion about real motives.  We saw the same dynamic at play in Ukraine. 
 

You can say you deplore hostage taking and hijacking. If your response to a specific hijacking is to say “well let’s see if they’ll take half of what they asked for and we all go home….” It’s not intellectually honest to pretend like you aren’t proposing a non-neutral solution that benefits the hijackers. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[Neonmoon 38129]

1 hour ago, bernorange said:

This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

This community rightly mocks Republican elected officials that routinely support anti-democratic and fascist policies like banning books, overturning elections, and restricting voting rights. These elected officials continue to be supported by Republican voters so it’s safe they’re all pieces of shit since they keep voting for fascists. 

Whatever left leaning groups in America that support Hamas are not elected by Democrats, so it’s disingenuous to say they represent “the left”
 

51 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   You don't just get to start a war by invading another country and intentionally killing women and children civillians point blank and call a time out.  That's not how the world works.    

It’s a little more nuanced than that. I believe Israel has every right to remove Hamas. I also hope they don’t kill any innocent Palestinians. 
 

50 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It’s not the majority by any means, but I have seen quite a few “I support resistance by any means necessary” comments from American leftists.

It’s essential to emphasize the difference between Hamas and Palestine, but you guys gotta know what is being said out there before you flatly deny it.

Well any group that supports resistance “by any means” which has been proven to include setting children on fire is probably also a piece of shit. No one denying there are terrible people in America. They were saying it wasn’t being said on this board 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

Whole thread is worth a read, all the way to the end on West Bank. 

 

[RomaVicta 29905]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“If your adversary is committed to doing war crimes, you just have to let them win,” is not a reasonable standard to expect any state to accept. 

Quote me or anyone else saying that. This is a bullshit strawman to do what I described in the post you quoted. Disappointing, my friend.

[Brisketexan 105095]

Whole thread is worth a read, all the way to the end on West Bank. 
 

Thanks for sharing that. It’s nice to read something rational and balanced - he’s no blanket Israel apologist (see his commentary on the WB).
I hope they Israel takes a measured approach in Gaza (I know they won’t, because Bibi and the worst faction are running things). But a blanket ceasefire in Gaza is a win for Hamas, pure and simple. And, it will invite more death of Israelis and Jews (see calls from Islamic clerics, just today, for worldwide killing of Jews).
Good thread. It won’t matter, because unless you’re for a Palestinian victory “from the river to the sea,” you’re anti-Palestinian and a bloodthirsty warmonger.

[Brisketexan 105095]

Quote me or anyone else saying that. This is a bullshit strawman to do what I described in the post you quoted. Disappointing, my friend.

Then pose the alternative. What DOES Israel get to do to fight against a foe that just committed and act of genocide and pledges to continue to do so, wherever Jews may live?

I’m serious. I agree, Israel shouldn’t just level Gaza. It shouldn’t have a full blockade of Gaza. But it also shouldn’t go for a ceasefire. It should fight. Deliberately, with precision. But it should not stop it’s war against Hamas until it is satisfied that the threat is sufficiently diminished.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

33 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Quote me or anyone else saying that. This is a bullshit strawman to do what I described in the post you quoted. Disappointing, my friend.

That wasn’t a swipe at you, @RomaVicta, you’re a reasonable poster on this.

I legitimately do not see the way out of the circle here. You don’t want to bomb civilian areas or invade an urban area. I rather doubt Israel wants to, either— they’d much prefer Hamas pick different terrain. 
 

But the enemy gets a vote. Hamas is based in cities. Hamas has elected to pursue a strategy of maximizing civilian casualties in any conflict.  
 

What’s the way out of this if the goal is to defeat and remove Hamas, which most agree is legitimate: 

[Neonmoon 38129]

There is no solution that will make everyone happy. 

Hamas is a terrorist organization using civilians and civilian structures as “protection” in order to wage their horrific attacks. 

Israel can either let this happen again by not removing Hamas, or remove Hamas and try to minimize any civilian casualties. It’s pretty obvious they are choosing the latter. I would chose the same if I were Israel. If I was Palestinian, I would argue for civilian support, aid, and relief. 

 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 hours ago, Macklemore said:

Why does this Tceh tard asshole have carte blanche to launch personal attacks that are aimed to silence discussion from posters he disagrees with. Skipper is no troll you fucking idiot. He has been around since hornfans. Fantana needs to be banned from CR.

Dawg, you openly fantasize about shooting Mexicans at the border, maybe sit this one out.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

7 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

There is no solution that will make everyone happy. 

Hamas is a terrorist organization using civilians and civilian structures as “protection” in order to wage their horrific attacks. 

Israel can either let this happen again by not removing Hamas, or remove Hamas and try to minimize any civilian casualties. It’s pretty obvious they are choosing the latter. I would chose the same if I were Israel. If I was Palestinian, I would argue for civilian support, aid, and relief. 

 

It's not an unreasonable response by Israel, all things considered. I'm sure that Biden privately argued for as much restraint as possible. I don't like the bombing and all the dead civilians, I don't like how there's a lot of bloodthirsty fervor similar to 9/11, but it certainly could be much worse at least for now.

It's the other stuff that's my real beef with Israel. Like we can argue until we're blue in the face about the realities of life in Gaza, but the situation in the West Bank is entirely unforgivable, for example. Every time I've asked what the excuse for how Palestinians are treated there, where there is no Hamas presence or influence, it's met with crickets or deflection to another topic.

[Brisketexan 105095]

It's not an unreasonable response by Israel, all things considered. I'm sure that Biden privately argued for as much restraint as possible. I don't like the bombing and all the dead civilians, I don't like how there's a lot of bloodthirsty fervor similar to 9/11, but it certainly could be much worse at least for now.
It's the other stuff that's my real beef with Israel. Like we can argue until we're blue in the face about the realities of life in Gaza, but the situation in the West Bank is entirely unforgivable, for example. Every time I've asked what the excuse for how Palestinians are treated there, where there is no Hamas presence or influence, it's met with crickets or deflection to another topic.

Pretty sure I said that with respect to the WB, Israel is a piece of dick. If I didn’t, mea culpa. They are. A piece of dick, that is.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Pretty sure I said that with respect to the WB, Israel is a piece of dick. If I didn’t, mea culpa. They are. A piece of dick, that is.

I'm sure you did, I just haven't seen much substantive discussion is all.

[Brisketexan 105095]

I'm sure you did, I just haven't seen much substantive discussion is all.

Well, it’s not the focal point of the immediate war.
Not that there isn’t bullshit happening there RIGHT NOW (Israeli paramilitaries killing Palestinians in land grabs in just the last two weeks), but it’s not as juicy a picture.

[Anastasis 23469]

28 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

it’s not as juicy a picture.

Not for those that want to paint Palestinians as a bunch of subhuman sons of darkness as contrasted with the sons of the light. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Anastasis

[statsman 5457]

I know enough about human history to say that “subhuman” is not the insult that many who use the term think that it is. 

[RomaVicta 29905]

7 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

II don't know what the solutions are in the MidEast, but the United States should not be supporting what Israel is doing. No person is going to look back on this and say, "Yep, the Israeli Army was doing what had to be done by massive bombing and a ground assault on a densely populated urban landscape." 

This is an assault wholly based on emotion, political ambition, and blood lust.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.

We should only be involved in humanitarian assistance and the protection of non-combatants no matter where they are located. Period.

Quote

From @Brisketexan: Then pose the alternative. What DOES Israel get to do to fight against a foe that just committed and act of genocide and pledges to continue to do so, wherever Jews may live?

 

7 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Also, again, my lack of imagination for a solution to these problems is not a reason to blow up Gaza. That is not a solution either. Why does this have to be decided in a day to prevent the slaughter to come?

Some very smart people around here are running on emotion and seemingly cultivating sweet outrage to justify further outrages. 

 

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

That wasn’t a swipe at you, @RomaVicta, you’re a reasonable poster on this.

I legitimately do not see the way out of the circle here. You don’t want to bomb civilian areas or invade an urban area. I rather doubt Israel wants to, either— they’d much prefer Hamas pick different terrain. 
 

But the enemy gets a vote. Hamas is based in cities. Hamas has elected to pursue a strategy of maximizing civilian casualties in any conflict.  
 

What’s the way out of this if the goal is to defeat and remove Hamas, which most agree is legitimate: 

See the above. I fucked up the format of this response.

I'm an American. I think in terms of American interests and reputation. I've been specific about what involvement the US should have.

I oppose the devastation of Gaza. I'm mortified and outraged by the Hamas attack on Israel. The US should only do what I say above. I don't want our name on this shit fire. It's too late, I know, but I'm sick that we rolled up a carrier group and gave a POS like Bebe a big hug for the cameras.

I appreciate the civility of both your posts. This is how discourse should be conducted. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by RomaVicta

[Neonmoon 38129]

His pro Israel message is a little insane 

[Welshy 907]

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

His pro Israel message is a little insane 

[RomaVicta 29905]

What a fucking world.

Cadet Bonespurs, you owe us for American blood you spilled, fuckwad.

[Nivek 16923]

Delete

[Nivek 16923]

That is extremely wrong however, Israel has not done much if anything to ever end a cycle.
Killing children with a dumbass plan is murder, plain and simple. It is butchering innocents.
Things Israel can do to actually end the slaughter is actually putting their army outside Gaza, instead of it going into the WB.

Lies or just ignorance.

[Smax 3800]

I'm sure your grasp of the world is based in solid experience with war, suffering, and brutality. Or maybe it's just tired posturing by someone just as naive as the illusory Kumbaya singers your tritely describe.
Gloves off. Hard world. Gotta be a man. Gotta slaughter them Palestinians so you can get your vicarious macho on. 
To again paraphrase Henry Rollins:
You say it's a mans world. Well, this man's world is a poorly run carnage fest.
I don't know what the solutions are in the MidEast, but the United States should not be supporting what Israel is doing. No person is going to look back on this and say, "Yep, the Israeli Army was doing what had to be done by massive bombing and a ground assault on a densely populated urban landscape." 
This is an assault wholly based on emotion, political ambition, and blood lust.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.
We should only be involved in humanitarian assistance and the protection of non-combatants no matter where they are located. Period.

My grasp of the world is based on my experience of setting foot on 6 of the 7 continents, visiting 38 different countries, living in 4 of them over a span of 53 years.

What is going in right now in Israel has been ongoing for over a millinea. Peace talks handshakes have done nothing but ensure a short term pause to the slaughter.

Am I a geopolitical expert? No, but neither is anyone else here, so keep hoping for peace, and you'll be disappointed again and again because peace isn't going to happen until one side is completely destroyed.

[David Dennison 18854]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

What a fucking world.

Cadet Bonespurs, you owe us for American blood you spilled, fuckwad.

It's like he doesn't know there's a record of his administration.

[Tonesky 934]

5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

There is no solution that will make everyone happy. 

Hamas is a terrorist organization using civilians and civilian structures as “protection” in order to wage their horrific attacks. 

Israel can either let this happen again by not removing Hamas, or remove Hamas and try to minimize any civilian casualties. It’s pretty obvious they are choosing the latter. I would chose the same if I were Israel. If I was Palestinian, I would argue for civilian support, aid, and relief. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's not an unreasonable response by Israel, all things considered. I'm sure that Biden privately argued for as much restraint as possible. I don't like the bombing and all the dead civilians, I don't like how there's a lot of bloodthirsty fervor similar to 9/11, but it certainly could be much worse at least for now.

It's the other stuff that's my real beef with Israel. Like we can argue until we're blue in the face about the realities of life in Gaza, but the situation in the West Bank is entirely unforgivable, for example. Every time I've asked what the excuse for how Palestinians are treated there, where there is no Hamas presence or influence, it's met with crickets or deflection to another topic.

 

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Pretty sure I said that with respect to the WB, Israel is a piece of dick. If I didn’t, mea culpa. They are. A piece of dick, that is.

Same

[InkaUtexas 25909]

Anyone going to answer the post about what a ceasefire would look like? 

[Tonesky 934]

7 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Anyone going to answer the post about what a ceasefire would look like? 

The flip answer is it will look like 2024. There will be no ceasefire anytime soon.

Ultimately, it will look like Israel standing down because it has either achieved its goal or has lost more lives than it can stomach.  

Edited October 29, 2023 by Tonesky

[InkaUtexas 25909]

Agree. That is what it will look like for now. A ceasefire has to endure. I don't think either side wants that. 

[Nivek 16923]

Why should Israel want one?

[InkaUtexas 25909]

5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Why should Israel want one?

They don't I am just trying to see what would the Surl think a ceasefire look like. 

 

[Captainant 27655]

31 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

They don't I am just trying to see what would the Surl think a ceasefire look like. 

 

Probably gonna have a whole shitload more dead Palestinians before we get anywhere close to one. I don't think either belligerent wants a cease fire due to internal politics, and everyone but the belligerents are horrified by the body count. It's a real shit sandwich.