Israel

[Bullneck 19,079]

 

 

[BrickHorn 18,219]

12 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

His pro Israel message is a little insane 

“Unless Saudi Arabia kills an American. If that happens, I’ll kiss their leaders’ asses.”

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

“Unless Saudi Arabia kills an American. If that happens, I’ll kiss their leaders’ asses.”

Pariah state meet Merica. 

[DDD Dad 14,334]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Pariah state meet Merica. 

Both sides!

[TreatyOak 16,313]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

 

 

I take it the initial explosion is setting off secondary explosions from weapon caches, as opposed to multiple bombs being used. Anyone think otherwise?

[Serak The Preparer 3,431]

15 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, it’s not the focal point of the immediate war.
Not that there isn’t bullshit happening there RIGHT NOW (Israeli paramilitaries killing Palestinians in land grabs in just the last two weeks), but it’s not as juicy a picture.

You are certainly correct that it is not as big a story but is also as more than a hint of "Now is not the time to talk about gun control" after the latest mass shooting. Again not to justify Hamas's actions even a fraction of a percent, but when is/was there going to be a time when Israeli actions in West Bank are going to be discussed in any internationally significant way?

[Guest]

10 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

They don't I am just trying to see what would the Surl think a ceasefire look like. 

 

Isreal stands down and continues to take casualties.

[Anastasis 23,469]

47 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Both sides!

You said it man. 

[Bullneck 19,079]

45 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

I take it the initial explosion is setting off secondary explosions from weapon caches, as opposed to multiple bombs being used. Anyone think otherwise?

I think it's the blast of the initial explosion travelling through a system of tunnels and exiting at successive openings.

[Brisketexan 105,096]

You are certainly correct that it is not as big a story but is also as more than a hint of "Now is not the time to talk about gun control" after the latest mass shooting. Again not to justify Hamas's actions even a fraction of a percent, but when is/was there going to be a time when Israeli actions in West Bank are going to be discussed in any internationally significant way?

Oh, I think now is a great time to discuss it, for real. I was just observing why it’s not getting traction; the story and graphics from Gaza at present are much more compelling/will get more press.

This would also be a great time to have an honest conversation about how the Palestinians in the levant are incredibly poor and have lousy living conditions….while their leaders have amassed literally billions of dollars in personal wealth and live lives of luxury in Qatar. Instead of improving the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, they’ve been funneling piles of money, intended to fund basics and infrastructure for the people, to themselves. We won’t be talking about that, either.

[Serak The Preparer 3,431]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, I think now is a great time to discuss it, for real. I was just observing why it’s not getting traction; the story and graphics from Gaza at present are much more compelling/will get more press.

This would also be a great time to have an honest conversation about how the Palestinians in the levant are incredibly poor and have lousy living conditions….while their leaders have amassed literally billions of dollars in personal wealth and live lives of luxury in Qatar. Instead of improving the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, they’ve been funneling piles of money, intended to fund basics and infrastructure for the people, to themselves. We won’t be talking about that, either.

I agree with your second paragraph 100%, but I disagree with "just observing why it's not getting traction". It wasn't getting traction before the terror attack and ensuing Israeli response. Most of the Western World and most of the Arab world doesn't really give a shit about improving Palestinian lives.

[Captainant 27,655]

51 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This would also be a great time to have an honest conversation about how the Palestinians in the levant are incredibly poor and have lousy living conditions….while their leaders have amassed literally billions of dollars in personal wealth and live lives of luxury in Qatar. Instead of improving the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, they’ve been funneling piles of money, intended to fund basics and infrastructure for the people, to themselves. We won’t be talking about that, either.

I mean shit, we don't even talk about that happening here in the south. Sure, our oligarchs and religious zealot leaders don't live in Qatar, but Florida is working to get up to that level of shitty and inhumane

[Bullneck 19,079]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, I think now is a great time to discuss it, for real. I was just observing why it’s not getting traction; the story and graphics from Gaza at present are much more compelling/will get more press.

This would also be a great time to have an honest conversation about how the Palestinians in the levant are incredibly poor and have lousy living conditions….while their leaders have amassed literally billions of dollars in personal wealth and live lives of luxury in Qatar. Instead of improving the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, they’ve been funneling piles of money, intended to fund basics and infrastructure for the people, to themselves. We won’t be talking about that, either.

 

2 hours ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I agree with your second paragraph 100%, but I disagree with "just observing why it's not getting traction". It wasn't getting traction before the terror attack and ensuing Israeli response. Most of the Western World and most of the Arab world doesn't really give a shit about improving Palestinian lives.

@Brisketexan Great point, and now is the best time to shine a light on this.

@Serak The Preparer We have to break the cycle.  We need someone (UN, I guess) to use the same Truth and Reconciliation techniques from Rwanda and South Africa to break the cycle of hate.  It will have to happen after Palestinians revoke their anti-Israel charter and have a new government.  If you want peace, work for justice.

This will only happen after every member of Hamas is dead.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bullneck

[Captainant 27,655]

4 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

This will only happen after every member of Hamas is dead.

Aaaaand this sort of thinking is how you sow the seeds of the next cycle of violence

[Brian Fantana 6,685]

14 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

This will only happen after every member of Hamas is dead.

I'm skeptical. It's close to effectively impossible to end terror organizations militarily. You can kill most of them, maybe, but unless you remedy the conditions that caused them to form in the first place, you're not really accomplishing anything. I hope Israel can cripple them without too many more civilian casualties, but I am very skeptical. Wars on Terror don't really work out too well, as we should all well know as Americans.

Once Israel is finished with what they're doing, I'd bet some large amount of money is in the end all it will accomplish is Israel internally turning into a worse police state than it already is (as happened in post-9/11 America), more Palestinians dying, some % of them becoming even more radicalized, and the cycle repeating itself until one or both sides is wiped out.

[Bullneck 19,079]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Aaaaand this sort of thinking is how you sow the seeds of the next cycle of violence

1.  Maybe . . . maybe not (remember that Truth and Reconciliation part).

2. Hamas is a terror organization. It does not represent the Palestinian people.  In fact, they are it's victims in the same way many Russians are Putin's victims and how most Americans would be if Trump were ever to hold office again.  

3. Terrorists might be rehabilitated (like 0.001% chance), but it's quicker and easier to kill them.  Same with ISIS.  Do you recall the atrocities of a few weeks ago?  Or of ISIS burning children in cages?  

If anyone chooses to respond, please cite by number the statement you're responding to.  It will reduce the number of blanket responses.

(Edit:  @Captainant Interesting that you didn't address the other, more lengthy parts of my post and concentrated on one sentence.  Why?  What do you think will or should become of Hamas?)

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bullneck

[Bullneck 19,079]

13 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm skeptical. It's close to effectively impossible to end terror organizations militarily. You can kill most of them, maybe, but unless you remedy the conditions that caused them to form in the first place, you're not really accomplishing anything. I hope Israel can cripple them without too many more civilian casualties, but I am very skeptical. Wars on Terror don't really work out too well, as we should all well know as Americans.

Once Israel is finished with what they're doing, I'd bet some large amount of money is in the end all it will accomplish is Israel internally turning into a worse police state than it already is (as happened in post-9/11 America), more Palestinians dying, some % of them becoming even more radicalized, and the cycle repeating itself until one or both sides is wiped out.

So, do you have an answer or course of action in any of that?

[Bullneck 19,079]

3 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

I take it the initial explosion is setting off secondary explosions from weapon caches, as opposed to multiple bombs being used. Anyone think otherwise?

I watched this again and think it might be both: munitions and tunnel entries set off by one bunker buster. 

 

[DDD Dad 14,334]

3 hours ago, Serak The Preparer said:

When is/was there going to be a time when Israeli actions in West Bank are going to be discussed in any internationally significant way?

Now. Right now would be a very good time. This needs to be done. 

[Brisketexan 105,096]

I'm skeptical. It's close to effectively impossible to end terror organizations militarily. You can kill most of them, maybe, but unless you remedy the conditions that caused them to form in the first place, you're not really accomplishing anything. I hope Israel can cripple them without too many more civilian casualties, but I am very skeptical. Wars on Terror don't really work out too well, as we should all well know as Americans.
Once Israel is finished with what they're doing, I'd bet some large amount of money is in the end all it will accomplish is Israel internally turning into a worse police state than it already is (as happened in post-9/11 America), more Palestinians dying, some % of them becoming even more radicalized, and the cycle repeating itself until one or both sides is wiped out.

So, you DO get it, and why I have zero faith in humanity. Welcome aboard.

[InkaUtexas 25,911]

Yep, time to start removing the illegal settlements. In 2005 Israel did this for Gaza. So there is a roadmap, just hope this time the Palestinians take advantage of what was left instead of destroying it. I am talking about the farms, greenhouses, irrigation. 

[Anastasis 23,469]

32 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Now. Right now would be a very good time. This needs to be done. 

LOL. There have been lots of opportunities over the last decade+. The "Where is their Ghandi?" people were pretty fucking quiet around here when the IDF was shooting non-violent protesters at the Gaza border fences, they have been silent as a church mouse while settlers shot innocent palestinians in the WB and bulldoze their houses, and not a fucking peep with the IDF cold blooded murders a palestinian reporter, lies and obfuscates about it and nobody is held to account. The reality is that nobody gives a fuck.

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

just hope this time the Palestinians take advantage of what was left instead of destroying it. I am talking about the farms, greenhouses, irrigation. 

That would require Israel to not repeat the strategy of total economic blockade and tactics such as closing down Karni in 2006 which made agriculture financially unviable. BUt tHosE aNimAls dEsTroYEd tHe beAuTiFuL tHInGs tHe eVer BEneVoLenT isRaElIs lEfT fOr THeM. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,582]

19 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

His pro Israel message is a little insane 

Your North Korean crush killed an American college student and then sent us a bill for shits and giggles. You went Ron Burgundy proclaiming your love for Veronica Corningstone over him. 

[Captainant 27,655]

2 hours ago, Bullneck said:

(Edit:  @Captainant Interesting that you didn't address the other, more lengthy parts of my post and concentrated on one sentence.  Why?  What do you think will or should become of Hamas?)

I don't quite get your contradictory statements of wanting "truth and reconciliation", while also advocating for total annihilation. I think Hamas is going to be turned into meat paste, along with the women and children who have been living in an apartheid state in Gaza under Israel. 

I don't know what should happen. It's a bigger fucking conflict than any of us, and it's older than western society itself. But I do know that Israel running the US antiterrorism playbook isn't going to do dick to reduce terrorism. From observation, it seems to make for more fertile ground for more terrorists. Which seems counterproductive in the long term. 

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

If Bibi were intelligent, he’d unilaterally start removing settlements in the West Bank and start a charm offensive there to give more space and breathing room for a major offensive in Gaza and to fracture any budding unity on this issue. He’d have more cover internationally, too. 
 

He’s not smart, and his domestic constituency won’t allow him to do that. One thing notable about democracies is how hard it can be to reign in the worst impulses once public sentiment is ignited. 

[Bullneck 19,079]

32 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I don't quite get your contradictory statements of wanting "truth and reconciliation", while also advocating for total annihilation. I think Hamas is going to be turned into meat paste, along with the women and children who have been living in an apartheid state in Gaza under Israel. 

I don't know what should happen. It's a bigger fucking conflict than any of us, and it's older than western society itself. But I do know that Israel running the US antiterrorism playbook isn't going to do dick to reduce terrorism. From observation, it seems to make for more fertile ground for more terrorists. Which seems counterproductive in the long term. 

Palestinian citizens (non-combatants) - T&R

Hamas - irredeemable and despicable, so  . . .

Hamas has made it impossible to separate the two from each other, but Israel has the obligation to take the most effective route to protecting their citizens.  It's going to get uglier, but you are invited to provide your solution in the space below:

 

Captainant's Solution: _________________________________

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bullneck

[InkaUtexas 25,911]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

That would require Israel to not repeat the strategy of total economic blockade and tactics such as closing down Karni in 2006 which made agriculture financially unviable. BUt tHosE aNimAls dEsTroYEd tHe beAuTiFuL tHInGs tHe eVer BEneVoLenT isRaElIs lEfT fOr THeM. 

Agree, but those green houses were long gone by 2006. Even the PA called in security and it was not enough. 

Now concerning the total economic blockade. Where does Hamas get all the rebar and cement for those tunnels? I have seen heavy artillery and what it does to cities. Shit, Grozny did not collapse like Gaza does. Notice how little rebar is used? 

 

[Brian Fantana 6,685]

3 hours ago, Bullneck said:

So, do you have an answer or course of action in any of that?

A) If you can't infer a course of action from what I posted there, I'm not sure you have even a superficially adequate understanding of the conflict, and thus having that conversation with you would be an utter waste of time.

B) I have done this already, you just haven't read the thread. I'm not going to hold you hand, good luck. Form an opinion for yourself.

[statsman 5,457]

Ok, I’ve figured out that when anti-Zionists say that Israel is “occupying”, they mean the state of Israel, within Israel’s borders, should be “Palestine”. 

What is meant when Israel is referred to as an apartheid state? Israel doesn’t control Gaza (Hamas does), nor the West Bank (PA/Fatah does). Where is the apartheid?

[Bullneck 19,079]

10 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

A) If you can't infer a course of action from what I posted there, I'm not sure you have even a superficially adequate understanding of the conflict, and thus having that conversation with you would be an utter waste of time.

B) I have done this already, you just haven't read the thread. I'm not going to hold you hand, good luck. Form an opinion for yourself.

 

Wow, what a cop out.  Why should I infer when you can just state it?  That way there is no doubt about it.  

**************************************

I had lunch with one of my oldest friends (met in the late 1970s, so we're both in our 60s) last week. He's Jewish and considered going aliyah a few years ago.  A few things came out of this:

• He's surprised at the more supportive attitude of younger people toward Palestine,
• He ran through the history of the region from the mid to late 1800s, the Ottoman Empire, the British Mandate, the Zionist movement, the independent state, the 6 day and Yom Kippur wars to the present situation,  
• He said that Jews have always lived in, and owned land in, the region and the major cause of friction is the refusal of certain groups to recognize the state of Israel,
• He's basically of the mind that the hostages are going to die.  And that for Israel this is a war of survival.  He's more concerned about Hezbollah than anything from Gaza.  The thinks Biden is going to try to force Israel into compromises that won't last and will erode their security.

 

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

We’ve got “Hell Hitler” being broadcast on Atlanta highways and Jewish manhunts taking place in Russian airports, but I’m sure everything will turn cool for us Jews globally if Israel puts down its weapons.

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

If Bibi were intelligent, he’d unilaterally start removing settlements in the West Bank and start a charm offensive there to give more space and breathing room for a major offensive in Gaza and to fracture any budding unity on this issue. He’d have more cover internationally, too. 
 

He’s not smart, and his domestic constituency won’t allow him to do that. One thing notable about democracies is how hard it can be to reign in the worst impulses once public sentiment is ignited. 

East Jerusalem and the WB are the primary and proximal objective. Gaza is dumpster fire, as intended.   

[Bullneck 19,079]

23 minutes ago, statsman said:

Ok, I’ve figured out that when anti-Zionists say that Israel is “occupying”, they mean the state of Israel, within Israel’s borders, should be “Palestine”. 

What is meant when Israel is referred to as an apartheid state? Israel doesn’t control Gaza (Hamas does), nor the West Bank (PA/Fatah does). Where is the apartheid?

The West Bank and Gaza are under Israeli control.  Life there sucks and in particular the Gazans (Gazites?) are walled off from civilization.  However, they are violent and hateful and have fired thousands of rockets at Israel.  So, yeah, Israel got tired of them and built a wall.  So,

 - Life in Israel - can be pretty nice.  

 - Life in Gaza - really sucks.  

But note that around 20% of the walking around Jerusalem population is Arab. But peaceful.  That's it, in a nutshell.  

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bullneck

[Anastasis 23,469]

22 minutes ago, statsman said:

Ok, I’ve figured out that when anti-Zionists say that Israel is “occupying”, they mean the state of Israel, within Israel’s borders, should be “Palestine”. 

What is meant when Israel is referred to as an apartheid state? Israel doesn’t control Gaza (Hamas does), nor the West Bank (PA/Fatah does). Where is the apartheid?

[F250 28,767]

2 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yep, time to start removing the illegal settlements. In 2005 Israel did this for Gaza. So there is a roadmap, just hope this time the Palestinians take advantage of what was left instead of destroying it. I am talking about the farms, greenhouses, irrigation. 

Weren't a lot of those things destroyed by the Israeli settlers before they left Gaza?

 

[Brian Fantana 6,685]

24 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

We’ve got “Hell Hitler” being broadcast on Atlanta highways and Jewish manhunts taking place in Russian airports, but I’m sure everything will turn cool for us Jews globally if Israel puts down its weapons.

Is your assumption Israel represents Jews worldwide? Not a single Jewish person I know believes that. If not, my mistake.

[Brian Fantana 6,685]

43 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

 

Wow, what a cop out.  Why should I infer when you can just state it?  That way there is no doubt about it.  

**************************************

I had lunch with one of my oldest friends (met in the late 1970s, so we're both in our 60s) last week. He's Jewish and considered going aliyah a few years ago.  A few things came out of this:

• He's surprised at the more supportive attitude of younger people toward Palestine,
• He ran through the history of the region from the mid to late 1800s, the Ottoman Empire, the British Mandate, the Zionist movement, the independent state, the 6 day and Yom Kippur wars to the present situation,  
• He said that Jews have always lived in, and owned land in, the region and the major cause of friction is the refusal of certain groups to recognize the state of Israel,
• He's basically of the mind that the hostages are going to die.  And that for Israel this is a war of survival.  He's more concerned about Hezbollah than anything from Gaza.  The thinks Biden is going to try to force Israel into compromises that won't last and will erode their security.

 

It's not a cop out, I just don't want to repeat myself over and over. Also, I'm on vacation in Big Bear right now. I just don't have it in me at the moment.

[DDD Dad 14,334]

23 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

East Jerusalem and the WB are the primary and proximal objective. Gaza is dumpster fire, as intended.   

You keep talking about this conflict implying that Israel started it. Quite fascinating to be honest. 

[statsman 5,457]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Is your assumption Israel represents Jews worldwide? Not a single Jewish person I know believes that. If not, my mistake.

This seems like a nonsensical response. 
 
He reported antisemitic slurs, and how he feels threatened as a Jew. I don’t understand your criticism. 

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

You keep talking about this conflict implying that Israel started it. Quite fascinating to be honest. 

You can't keep the beat, quite expected. 

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

Is your assumption Israel represents Jews worldwide? Not a single Jewish person I know believes that. If not, my mistake.

The people who want to kill Jews do not differentiate, which is the point I’ve made repeatedly in this thread.

[DDD Dad 14,334]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You can't keep the beat, quite expected. 

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

11 minutes ago, statsman said:

This seems like a nonsensical response. 
 
He reported antisemitic slurs, and how he feels threatened as a Jew. I don’t understand your criticism. 

There’s a a lot to criticize the government of Israel for, and also there’s a lot of anti-Semitism masquerading as said criticism. People have really dug their heels in on refusing to acknowledge the latter for fear it will discredit the former. 

[statsman 5,457]

11 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

The people who want to kill Jews do not differentiate, which is the point I’ve made repeatedly in this thread.

Yeah, the Hamas terrorist that called his dad said, “I killed ten Jews! With my own hands!”, and not “I killed ten Zionist colonizers!” Or even “I killed ten Israelis!”

[Anastasis 23,469]

31 minutes ago, F250 said:

Weren't a lot of those things destroyed by the Israeli settlers before they left Gaza?

 

Yes, and those that were rebuilt with donated funds (substantially from Jewish donors, btw) were successfully producing crops that could not be exported and ultimately were left to rot, because the state of Israel has had and still has an economic noose around Gaza's neck. The population, mostly fucking children and minors, have no employment, education, or other options. They get to wallow in subjection, mental illness, and hopelessness. But hey, they had it coming to them. Park a couple aircraft carriers off the beach and make sure nothing gets too distasteful. Great foreign policy take we got here.  

[statsman 5,457]

45 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I guess that’s a satisfying answer for you, but not for me. “Apartheid” has a definition. It requires a formal and codified rejection of “The Rule of Law” (the idea that laws apply the same to everyone). 

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 minute ago, statsman said:

I guess that’s a satisfying answer for you, but not for me. “Apartheid” has a definition. It requires a formal and codified rejection of “The Rule of Law” (the idea that laws apply the same to everyone). 

Holy shit, I think that you are actually serious. 

[Brian Fantana 6,685]

27 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

The people who want to kill Jews do not differentiate, which is the point I’ve made repeatedly in this thread.

Ok I understand, thanks. And I agree.

[DDD Dad 14,334]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Holy shit, I think that you are actually serious. 

This schtick is really tired. For as good as your posts in the food threads are, your condescension and ad hominem posts in this forum really diminish. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by DDD Dad