Israel

[Anastasis 23469]

Sorry I guess for condescending the notion that the illegal settlements in the west bank are not a rejection of the "Rule of Law". 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Anastasis

[DDD Dad 14332]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Sorry I guess

 

[Anastasis 23469]

For as good as your posts are, well nowhere, your ad hominem and condescension in this forum is actually an improvement on your typical hall monitor schtick here.   

[Bullneck 19079]

NM

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bullneck

[DDD Dad 14332]

50 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

For as good as your posts are, well nowhere, your ad hominem and condescension in this forum is actually an improvement on your typical hall monitor schtick here.   

 

[Nivek 16923]

Lulz.  You’re like the Animal Tobacco guy who 99% of the posters constantly tell him they hate him and he needs to die in a fire - to which he does nothing - but then he snaps at the mild respectful criticism instead.
Everyone: “Anastasis’d!  Put the contrarian edgelord on ignore before he ruins another thread!  He’s the worst!”
Anastasis: [usual noncommittal condescending blather that ultimately says nothing].

DDD: “I actually like your posts elsewhere, but I think your condescension and ad hominem attacks here diminish you.  You’re better than that.”
Anastasis: “Hey, fuck you, buddy!  I don’t like your posts anywhere, guy!  Why don’t you go play in traffic, friend!”

Maybe they need to go fuck or something…..

[956 Worldwide 34705]

If you’re looking for exactly how far some are willing to dig their heels in not to see antisemitism, exhibit A is the way the AP framed a mob of enraged people in Dagestan who stormed an airport because they heard Jews were landing there as a “protest.” 
 

If only there were some Russian loanword to describe something like this…..

[DDD Dad 14332]

23 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Maybe they need to go fuck or something…..

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by DDD Dad

[Anastasis 23469]

51 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Lulz.  You’re like the Animal Tobacco guy who 99% of the posters constantly tell him they hate him and he needs to die in a fire - to which he does nothing - but then he snaps at the mild respectful criticism instead.

Everyone: “Anastasis’d!  Put the contrarian edgelord on ignore before he ruins another thread!  He’s the worst!”

Anastasis: [Usual noncommittal condescending blather that ultimately says nothing].

DDD: “I actually like your posts elsewhere, but I think your condescension and ad hominem attacks here diminish you.  You’re better than that.”

Anastasis: “Hey, fuck you, buddy!  I don’t like your posts anywhere, guy!  Why don’t you go play in traffic, friend!”

Congrats on stringing that many words together and hitting submit. Longest post from you on this thread, about me. Its funny when you give a little glimpse into your delusional inner dialogue. 

[Welshy 907]

20 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

 

[Anastasis 23469]

42 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Maybe they need to go fuck or something…..

Now. Right now would be a very good time. This needs to be done. 

[Welshy 907]

16 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Now. Right now would be a very good time. This needs to be done. 

[TKthunder2 4989]

On 10/28/2023 at 11:30 AM, David Dennison said:

All things considered in the year 2023, what's more precarious, being born a Jew or being born a Palestinian?

Honest answer.

In Israel, a Palestinian. Outside of Israel a Jew.

[DDD Dad 14332]

28 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Now. Right now would be a very good time. This needs to be done. 

 

[Smax 3800]

If Bibi were intelligent, he’d unilaterally start removing settlements in the West Bank and start a charm offensive there to give more space and breathing room for a major offensive in Gaza and to fracture any budding unity on this issue. He’d have more cover internationally, too. 
 
He’s not smart, and his domestic constituency won’t allow him to do that. One thing notable about democracies is how hard it can be to reign in the worst impulses once public sentiment is ignited. 

If he did that, hamas and other terror organizations would take that as a sign that terrorism gets shit done.

It's a difficult situation to maneuver, to do what some may feel is the "right thing" yet not reinforce that belief

[Smax 3800]

Yes, and those that were rebuilt with donated funds (substantially from Jewish donors, btw) were successfully producing crops that could not be exported and ultimately were left to rot, because the state of Israel has had and still has an economic noose around Gaza's neck. The population, mostly fucking children and minors, have no employment, education, or other options. They get to wallow in subjection, mental illness, and hopelessness. But hey, they had it coming to them. Park a couple aircraft carriers off the beach and make sure nothing gets too distasteful. Great foreign policy take we got here.  

If only hamas took those 100s of millions of dollars it gets and reinvested it into propping up their people instead of buying weapons to attack its neighbors

[David Dennison 18854]

2 minutes ago, Smax said:

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Yes, and those that were rebuilt with donated funds (substantially from Jewish donors, btw) were successfully producing crops that could not be exported and ultimately were left to rot, because the state of Israel has had and still has an economic noose around Gaza's neck. The population, mostly fucking children and minors, have no employment, education, or other options. They get to wallow in subjection, mental illness, and hopelessness. But hey, they had it coming to them. Park a couple aircraft carriers off the beach and make sure nothing gets too distasteful. Great foreign policy take we got here.  

If only hamas took those 100s of millions of dollars it gets and reinvested it into propping up their people instead of buying weapons to attack its neighbors

How much money do their neighbors get?

[Anastasis 23469]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

How much money do their neighbors get?

It’s kinda interesting all the non military goodness that magically happens when you subsidize everyone else’s military. 

[Satchel 6938]

5 hours ago, Bullneck said:

 

Wow, what a cop out.  Why should I infer when you can just state it?  That way there is no doubt about it.  

**************************************

I had lunch with one of my oldest friends (met in the late 1970s, so we're both in our 60s) last week. He's Jewish and considered going aliyah a few years ago.  A few things came out of this:

• He's surprised at the more supportive attitude of younger people toward Palestine,
• He ran through the history of the region from the mid to late 1800s, the Ottoman Empire, the British Mandate, the Zionist movement, the independent state, the 6 day and Yom Kippur wars to the present situation,  
• He said that Jews have always lived in, and owned land in, the region and the major cause of friction is the refusal of certain groups to recognize the state of Israel,
• He's basically of the mind that the hostages are going to die.  And that for Israel this is a war of survival.  He's more concerned about Hezbollah than anything from Gaza.  The thinks Biden is going to try to force Israel into compromises that won't last and will erode their security.

 

How could anybody not include the lack of a two state solution as a causal factor in the ongoing violence in the region?

[Bullneck 19079]

5 minutes ago, Satchel said:

How could anybody not include the lack of a two state solution as a causal factor in the ongoing violence in the region?

Can you explain the two state solution, where it came from, and why it is necessary?

[Satchel 6938]

12 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Can you explain the two state solution, where it came from, and why it is necessary?

Really?

[David Dennison 18854]

14 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Can you explain the two state solution, where it came from, and why it is necessary?

Will this do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#

[F250 28767]

2 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Honest answer.

In Israel, a Palestinian. Outside of Israel a Jew.

Ultimately, when the middle east flairs up it's the Sikhs that pay the price.

[DDD Dad 14332]

14 minutes ago, F250 said:

Ultimately, when the middle east flairs up it's the Sikhs that pay the price.

 

[F250 28767]

11 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

 

 

[Bullneck 19079]

8 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Will this do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#

Actually, no.  I can Google things.

This is an internet message board, so take readily information like that, add your personal knowledge and experience and type that out. 

8 hours ago, Satchel said:

Really?

Yes, really.

Because I want you to tell me the origins of the two state solution and whether they are valid, and under what construct.  

Edited October 30, 2023 by Bullneck

[David Dennison 18854]

You first.

[RomaVicta 29905]

Our relationship with Israel is so ingrained that the fucking NYT uses a euphemism. Put more pressure on Gaza? What is it they want Gaza to do?

Israel is attacking Gaza. It's right there in front of your face. Call it what it is. It's not putting more pressure on Gaza; it's an attack of increasing intensity. It's brutal.

The first sentence says Biden calls on Israel to protect civilians. Doesn't this suggest that Biden thinks Israel is not doing so? It's your lead sentence, NYT. What's the actual story?

Israels Intensifying Assault on Gaza;

Biden Urges Protection of Civilian Lives

This thread has polarized, so many will assume I'm speaking from one end of the pole or the other. I'm not. Competent discussion calls for accurate reportage. Much of my ire is tied to my disappointment in the decline of American journalism. The headline I suggest is merely accurate. 

Does the headline put Israel in a bad light? The color of that light passes through the polarized prism. The two colors are:

Hell yes, they are. And I support it! Hamas is to be destroyed at all costs. All costs.

or

Goddamn, they're killing even more civilians? This attack is brutal, and I oppose it. Israel must find other ways!

I argue that my headline is accurate and objective. That's what we need to feed our lengthy and usually pointless debates which I enjoy participating in. 

Maybe nobody cares. 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by RomaVicta

[statsman 5457]

“Israeli apartheid”- I have read up on it 

The closest possible example is the above-noted West Bank. PA is in charge, but there were bantustans that also had a nominal semi-autonomy, yet still were under the thumb of the South African government. 
 
A difference is that South Africa would not allow any foreign aid or international relations with the bantustans, while the WB (and Gaza) get both of those things.  
 
South Africa restricted movement of bantustan residents in ways that Israel doesn’t. 
 
The situation, to me, seems more accurately described as “like apartheid” than apartheid. Others may disagree. 
 
The issue comes down to Israel trying to autonomously institute the two state solution that the Palestinians refuse to accept. 

[InkaUtexas 25908]

16 hours ago, F250 said:

Weren't a lot of those things destroyed by the Israeli settlers before they left Gaza?

 

Some, but quite a lot were looted and destroyed. Two articles, one Al Jazeera and one NBC. 

“The looters took their time to dismantle the greenhouses and to uproot entire greenhouses and carry them away,” said Amid al-Masri, head of the Palestine Economic Development Company’s (PEDC) greenhouse project. 

The Palestinian Authority project was set up with the help of private donors who paid $13 million to Jewish settlers to leave their greenhouses intact after the withdrawal.

AJ

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2006/2/13/looters-steal-gaza-greenhouses

NBC

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna9331863

[Bullneck 19079]

18 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Is your assumption Israel represents Jews worldwide? Not a single Jewish person I know believes that. If not, my mistake.

Let's take a look!

 

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

So, a riot with murderous intent in Dagestan.  Jewish schools in Paris evacuated because of bomb threats.  Numerous protests in the US where people are carrying signs calling for the extermination of jews.  People tearing down missing posters worldwide re missing Israeli jews, some of them saying that the kidnappers should finish the job and jews should be exterminated.  Jewish center at Cornell under police protection.  Etc. etc. ad nauseum, just since October 7th.

Pledges and threats to kill all Palestinians wherever they may live, all over the world.....not aware of any?  I am aware of at least one instance of what looks to be an anti-muslim hate crime in Chicago.  I would expect that there have been others elsewhere, but nothing systematic of by large groups.

The dynamic that is the reality in which the world operates is:

Palestinians are oppressed in the levant, and do not have the human rights and sovereignty there that they should.  But Palestinians living outside of Palestine are generally as safe and live as ordinary lives as any other group.

Jews are a target for murder and extermination in the entire world - Israel, Europe, the US, everywhere.  Palestinians and Palestinian sympathizers are among the loudest cheerleaders for that cause.  And this is nothing new - Jews being a target for genocide is at least a 2,000 year old phenomenon.

 

That's the dynamic.  Now, develop a path forward that takes that into account.  It's wrong and ineffective not to take into account the plight of Palestinians in the levant when trying to craft a path forward.  It's wrong and ineffective not to take into account the precarious position of every jew on earth, who at any given moment, is a target for a real-deal huge movement to murder them wherever they are.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

@Brisketexan, the caveat I’d make is that it’s pretty shitty to be a Palestinian outside of Palestine in neighboring countries, too. 

[Biff Tannen 45673]

What is going on with this Ivy League anti-semitism thing?  It was one of the questions on a text survey I took this weekend, but didn't understand why they were asking about my opinion on Ivy League schools.  Apparently Cornell had a bunch of anti-semitic threats and some other schools too?

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

@Brisketexan, the caveat I’d make is that it’s pretty shitty to be a Palestinian outside of Palestine in neighboring countries, too. 

Fair addendum.  For the Palestinians, with friends like the neighboring Arab states, who needs enemies?  The life of a Palestinian in a refugee facility in Jordan or Egypt is no picnic.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

11 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

What is going on with this Ivy League anti-semitism thing?  It was one of the questions on a text survey I took this weekend, but didn't understand why they were asking about my opinion on Ivy League schools.  Apparently Cornell had a bunch of anti-semitic threats and some other schools too?

 

Long story short: a bunch of Ivy League students thought it was cute and decolonialistic to line up behind “from the river to the sea” and failed to get the memo that it was no longer cute after Hamas tried to actually operationalize that chant. 
 

And there’s probably a fair number of real, honest to goodness raving Jew haters. One thing that’s fascinating is that American academics rightfully take American right wing evangelicals at their word and study what that means. Very few extend that courtesy to Islamists. 

[Hate 20108]

What is going on with this Ivy League anti-semitism thing?  It was one of the questions on a text survey I took this weekend, but didn't understand why they were asking about my opinion on Ivy League schools.  Apparently Cornell had a bunch of anti-semitic threats and some other schools too?
 

All the cool kids are anti Israel these days. It’s the latest trend on Surly…errr social media.

[nbmishoid 949]

The cool kids are mostly anti oppressor.    This situation is more complicated than they can reason.   But the axiom is ok.

[Biff Tannen 45673]

15 minutes ago, Hate said:

All the cool kids are anti Israel these days. It’s the latest trend on Surly…errr social media.

 

12 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

The cool kids are mostly anti oppressor.    This situation is more complicated than they can reason.   But the axiom is ok.

This is what I think needs to be understood.  Maybe their brains aren't developed enough yet, but you can be anti-Israeli government and not be anti-Jewish.  At least I can be.  These kids need to back the fuck up and not be idiots.

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

NY Post is a troll paper but props to them for putting these motherfuckers on blast.  They merely just interviewed people at a protest.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/metro/9k-pro-palestinian-protestors-take-over-brooklyn-bridge-call-for-elimination-of-jewish-state-by-any-means/

Freedom by any means, land back by any means,” declared Dorian, a 24-year-old protester from Queens, during the three-mile Flood Brooklyn for Gaza march, which began at 3 p.m. in front of the Brooklyn Museum in Crown Heights, not far from the Hasidic Lubavitcher headquarters on Eastern Parkway, where a Sabbath festival was being held.

“I believe the settler state of Israel must be taken down,” he said

 

The demonstrators — holding signs with antisemitic slogans such as “From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will be Free,” and “F—k Israel, Justice Palestine” 

 

“I’m in support of the solidarity of the Palestinian people because the genocide of now, I mean, there’s been so many times I can push you before you push back right?” said Jason, who was decked out in Palestinian accessories.

He chastised Israel for targeting civilians in its war against Hamas and asserted that Israel is committing the humanitarian atrocities it has accused the terrorist group of carrying out.

On the beheading of Israeli babies and children, Jason said: “Where’s the proof? Yeah, that’s the narrative that they put so they can put a bad name on the Palestinians.”

One of the protesters was just 15 years old and bore a sign reading, “F–k Israel all my homies hate Israel”

 

Before the rally, former City Councilman David Greenfield, a Brooklyn Democrat who now heads the Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty, lashed out at the protests’ sponsors for choosing to hold an anti-Israel protest on Shabbat in Crown Heights, which has a sizable population of Hasidic Jews.

“It’s not an accident that pro-Hamas activists would pick this place to protest Jews,” he said.

[Hate 20108]

NY Post is a troll paper but props to them for putting these motherfuckers on blast.  They merely just interviewed people at a protest.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/metro/9k-pro-palestinian-protestors-take-over-brooklyn-bridge-call-for-elimination-of-jewish-state-by-any-means/

Freedom by any means, land back by any means,” declared Dorian, a 24-year-old protester from Queens, during the three-mile Flood Brooklyn for Gaza march, which began at 3 p.m. in front of the Brooklyn Museum in Crown Heights, not far from the Hasidic Lubavitcher headquarters on Eastern Parkway, where a Sabbath festival was being held.

“I believe the settler state of Israel must be taken down,” he said

 

The demonstrators — holding signs with antisemitic slogans such as “From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will be Free,” and “F—k Israel, Justice Palestine” 

 

“I’m in support of the solidarity of the Palestinian people because the genocide of now, I mean, there’s been so many times I can push you before you push back right?” said Jason, who was decked out in Palestinian accessories.

He chastised Israel for targeting civilians in its war against Hamas and asserted that Israel is committing the humanitarian atrocities it has accused the terrorist group of carrying out.

On the beheading of Israeli babies and children, Jason said: “Where’s the proof? Yeah, that’s the narrative that they put so they can put a bad name on the Palestinians.”

One of the protesters was just 15 years old and bore a sign reading, “F–k Israel all my homies hate Israel”

 

Before the rally, former City Councilman David Greenfield, a Brooklyn Democrat who now heads the Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty, lashed out at the protests’ sponsors for choosing to hold an anti-Israel protest on Shabbat in Crown Heights, which has a sizable population of Hasidic Jews.

“It’s not an accident that pro-Hamas activists would pick this place to protest Jews,” he said.

They just hate the Israeli government. What’s the big deal?

[BrickHorn 18218]

@Brisketexan - Read this paper. Antisemitic attitudes are low on the left, especially compared to the right. And they are lower on the far left than in the center left. 

The idea that there’s a strain of antisemitic thought on the far left is unfounded. The idea that any antisemitism on the far left is even remotely in the ballpark of the far right — or anywhere else on the political spectrum — is just absurd bullshit. 

Antisemitism exists. But the far left is the group least prone to it.

[InkaUtexas 25908]

From Dagestan to London to Paris to NYC, every has Palestinian flags. Yet my HEB does not have any.... What the hell? 

Thinking there could be a business opportunity here. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

14 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

@Brisketexan - Read this paper. Antisemitic attitudes are low on the left, especially compared to the right. And they are lower on the far left than in the center left. 

The idea that there’s a strain of antisemitic thought on the far left is unfounded. The idea that any antisemitism on the far left is even remotely in the ballpark of the far right — or anywhere else on the political spectrum — is just absurd bullshit. 

Antisemitism exists. But the far left is the group least prone to it.

That’s a really interesting paper.  I scanned all the way through it. One thing that jumped out to me was that overt, recognizable anti-Semitism did not display the “horseshoe theory,” things get a lot more muddled when the study designers asked questions designed to see whether or not people hold anti-Jewish double standards.  I’m not super-surprised that the far-right is far more likely to just say “yes” to straight-up antisemitism as that’s kind of their whole thing. 
 

 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

57 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

The cool kids are mostly anti oppressor.    This situation is more complicated than they can reason.   But the axiom is ok.

One of the thing that’s striking about the modern “cool” far left is the complete lack of any of the romance, revolution, and liberation of the old far left. There’s no Che. There’s no Ho Chi Minh.  There’s no young Castro. 
 

There’s nothing but sour, surly, theocratic, fanatic, (and dare I say it…IMPERIALISTIC) causes for them to line up behind.  Putin. Xi. Mullahs. And all of them a damn sight worse than the oppressors they see behind every corner.  Really, when the purest cause you can line up behind is being led by a theocratic horror show like Hamas, it’s time to reassess. Being a tankie leftists in 2023 means lining up being the most oppressive visions of the world available. 

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

That’s a really interesting paper.  I scanned all the way through it. One thing that jumped out to me was that overt, recognizable anti-Semitism did not display the “horseshoe theory,” things get a lot more muddled when the study designers asked questions designed to see whether or not people hold anti-Jewish double standards.  I’m not super-surprised that the far-right is far more likely to just say “yes” to straight-up antisemitism as that’s kind of their whole thing. 

It is an interesting read, and I would agree that here in America I am much more likely to be killed by a right wing "Heil Hitler" type of antisemite, and they would broadcast as much.

But globally, antisemitism more closely resembles what we see many on the left hide behind - "It's Israel, not the Jews" while making no discernable effort to distinguish between the two.

(All of this IMO and largely anecdotal, of course.)

Edited October 30, 2023 by Chuckie Finster

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

Man, they're loyal to Toyota trucks, I'll give them that...

 

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

22 hours ago, statsman said:

Ok, I’ve figured out that when anti-Zionists say that Israel is “occupying”, they mean the state of Israel, within Israel’s borders, should be “Palestine”. 

You mean like it was before one nation promised another nation the land of a third nation?
 

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours, 
Arthur James Balfour

[washparkhorn 9939]

32 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

@Brisketexan

The idea that there’s a strain of antisemitic thought on the far left is unfounded. The idea that any antisemitism on the far left is even remotely in the ballpark of the far right — or anywhere else on the political spectrum — is just absurd bullshit. 

Antisemitism exists. But the far left is the group least prone to it.

Repeated for emphasis.
 

The horseshoe theory of politics is manure for mediocre moderate minds—and, unfortunately, emboldens the far right where antisemitism seethes as a catalyst for irrational hate. The fishhook theory of politics illustrates antisemitic reality more accurately.

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45673]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

But globally, antisemitism more closely resembles what we see many on the left hide behind - "It's Israel, not the Jews" while making no discernable effort to distinguish between the two.

There is a massive difference between the two and I don't understand why that is hard for anyone to understand, regardless of what you support.