Israel

[David Dennison 18854]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

But globally, antisemitism more closely resembles what we see many on the left hide behind - "It's Israel, not the Jews" while making no discernable effort to distinguish between the two.

That might have something to do with the fact that if you try to distinguish between Israel and Jews you run the risk of being labeled an antisemite.

[Satchel 6938]

8 hours ago, Bullneck said:

Actually, no.  I can Google things.

This is an internet message board, so take readily information like that, add your personal knowledge and experience and type that out. 

Yes, really.

Because I want you to tell me the origins of the two state solution and whether they are valid, and under what construct.  

Are you asking a question that you think you know the answer to?

[David Dennison 18854]

4 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Are you asking a question that you think you know the answer to?

Which is why he should go first.

[TKthunder2 4989]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

@Brisketexan, the caveat I’d make is that it’s pretty shitty to be a Palestinian outside of Palestine in neighboring countries, too. 

Which country below would you pick to be a be a Jew over a Palestinian in:

Jordan

Lebanon

Syria

Saudi Arabia 

Egypt

Turkey

Yemen

Iraq

Qatar

UAE

Iran

Oman

?

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

There is a massive difference between the two and I don't understand why that is hard for anyone to understand, regardless of what you support.

It shouldn’t be too hard for anyone to understand. So, along those lines, a few questions about this:

 

1. Why do you think the organizers selected the term “flood.” 

2. Is there anything particularly “Israeli” in Brooklyn/Crown Heights?

3. If the answer to the above is “no,” what could be in Brooklyn Crown Heights that could be a focus of this protest? Anything that might be a proxy for “Israeli?” 

4. Any historical context to protests or street actions in Brooklyn/Crown Heights that may be relevant?

5. Who is “they”? 

The dog whistles here aren’t at a particularly difficult frequency to hear unless you’re plugging your ears. And with a tip of the hat to @washparkhorn, there’s nothing at all “centrist” here. 

[Huckleberry 32851]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

There is a massive difference between the two and I don't understand why that is hard for anyone to understand, regardless of what you support.

It's more than a little disingenuous when people act like only one side conflates the two. Heck, it's the main way the pro-Israel side argues against detractors. 

[David Dennison 18854]

So when Israel commits atrocities, what is the politically correct response?

[956 Worldwide 34705]

“Help, I’ve being called anti-Semitic because I support Palestine and criticize Israel”

”Holy shit, you got called anti-Semitic for supporting a two state solution?”

“Hahaha, no.”

”Oh, so you criticized the expansion of settlements in the West Bank.”

”No, not that criticism of Israel.”

”So what views are being called anti-Semitic?”

”Oh, you know the ones.”

['stache 21802]

I'm pretty sure the red hat "The Jews Will Not Replace Us" crowd aren't supporting Gaza or Palestinians. They probably don't even know what those words mean. 

[Ted Lange 16084]

 

 

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So when Israel Nation-state X commits atrocities, what is the politically correct response?

FI to make it pretty damned understandable.  When the state of Israel commits atrocities, war crimes, etc., the response should be criticism of that nation state and the acts thereof.

I'm sorry, but the hand-waving dismissal of the ongoing, continuous, and now heightened genocidal anti-semitism against all jews, everywhere they may be found, is a real fucking problem in both the credibility of those who advocate hard for the Palestinians, AND it ignores a key element of the dynamic such as to make efforts to resolve the situation functionally impossible.

It's a reality that the Palestinians in the levant have a shit sandwich.  Objectively, we should want to remedy that.  Palestinians shouldn't be eating a massive shit sandwich.

It's a reality that genocidal anti-semitism is a real fucking thing that isn't just a one-off belief by an asshole here and there -- it's a strain that runs far and deep across the globe.  Objectively, we have to account for that.  Jews shouldn't be in constant existential fear for their continued existence (both collectively and individually).

If you aren't giving due weight to both of those things, you don't even get off the ground.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

11 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I'm pretty sure the red hat "The Jews Will Not Replace Us" crowd aren't supporting Gaza or Palestinians. They probably don't even know what those words mean. 

You should check out what Nick Fuentes and Jackson Hinkle are up to these days (Hinkle now the most engaged account on X).

For that matter, it’s worth doing a search on “atrocity propaganda” about two week on this forum.

[Anastasis 23469]

23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

When the state of Israel commits atrocities, war crimes, etc., the response should be criticism of that nation state and the acts thereof.

The US is really good at wagging its finger and saying a few words. And then pushing the approval through for the arms sales. Ask MBS, he knows how it works.  

[Brisketexan 105095]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The US is really good at wagging its finger and saying a few words. And then pushing the approval through for the arms sales. Ask MBS, he knows how it works.  

No doubt.

A question about US engagement with Israel right now, re the present war.  Do you think that US pressure has resulted in Israel taking a more aggressive course of action re Gaza, or a less aggressive/more measured course of action than Israel otherwise would have?  And yes, I know the response is "we shouldn't offer any support and should kneecap Israel," so stipulating that response....is US diplomatic engagement in the past few weeks helping to ratchet the military acts of Israel UP, or DOWN?

[statsman 5457]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

So when Israel commits atrocities, what is the politically correct response?

US army troops committed an atrocity in Iraq, at Mahmudiyah, that shames me, as an American who bursts with pride in his country, usually. The men who did it were reported, and are in a hole in Kansas that they will never get out of. Justice? There is no justice for what they did, but this is the closest approximation. 
 
If Israel commits such an atrocity, turn them into Israel. Report it. 
 
Now, are you calling “collateral damage” (the euphemism for innocent civilians being killed by the war around them) an atrocity? John Kirby addressed that very question the other day, and I have no quibble with his answer. It’s Hamas’ fault. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by statsman

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

So, why won't Hamas release the hostages?

[mchookem 16327]

59 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

No doubt.

A question about US engagement with Israel right now, re the present war.  Do you think that US pressure has resulted in Israel taking a more aggressive course of action re Gaza, or a less aggressive/more measured course of action than Israel otherwise would have?  And yes, I know the response is "we shouldn't offer any support and should kneecap Israel," so stipulating that response....is US diplomatic engagement in the past few weeks helping to ratchet the military acts of Israel UP, or DOWN?

that's the answer, right...Biden admin got them to slow down on the hostilities some, i swear i read that yesterday. 

[washparkhorn 9939]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And with a tip of the hat to @washparkhorn, there’s nothing at all “centrist” here. 

You are right—they are right wingers and anti-Semitic as fuck. The organizer, Nerdeen Kiswani, is a Hamas apologist.  But of course, they must be commies . . .

 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“Help, I’ve being called anti-Semitic because I support Palestine and criticize Israel”

”Holy shit, you got called anti-Semitic for supporting a two state solution?”

“Hahaha, no.”

”Oh, so you criticized the expansion of settlements in the West Bank.”

”No, not that criticism of Israel.”

”So what views are being called anti-Semitic?”

”Oh, you know the ones.”

Weird because those two things you are clearly implying people who advocate for Palestinian liberation don't do are like, exactly what I've been saying for weeks.

Like, you're doing it again, clearly trying to say anyone that stands up for their rights is an anti-Semite. You know, that thing you've apologized for doing in this thread already.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

If Israel commits such an atrocity, turn them into Israel. Report it.

You're joking right? This has to be a joke.

[South Austin 52463]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

So when Israel commits atrocities, what is the politically correct response?

[statsman 5457]

49 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're joking right? This has to be a joke.

I’m not joking. It is my belief that the Israelis are decent people that believe in rights and the rule of law. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

5 minutes ago, statsman said:

I’m not joking. It is my belief that the Israelis are decent people that believe in rights and the rule of law. 

Yes, they are. Their leaders are not. But you're asking the cops to investigate themselves, so to speak.

[David Dennison 18854]

3 hours ago, statsman said:

US army troops committed an atrocity in Iraq, at Mahmudiyah, that shames me, as an American who bursts with pride in his country, usually. The men who did it were reported, and are in a hole in Kansas that they will never get out of. Justice? There is no justice for what they did, but this is the closest approximation. 
 
If Israel commits such an atrocity, turn them into Israel. Report it. 
 
Now, are you calling “collateral damage” (the euphemism for innocent civilians being killed by the war around them) an atrocity? John Kirby addressed that very question the other day, and I have no quibble with his answer. It’s Hamas’ fault. 

A Manichean view of the world is always helpful in times of moral uncertainty.

Edited October 31, 2023 by David Dennison

[Brisketexan 105095]

A Manichean view of the world is always helpful in times of moral uncertainty.

But a Manischewitz view of the world is even more helpful with respect to this particular issue.

[Neonmoon 38129]

I prefer the tipsy view of josh mankiewicz

[David Dennison 18854]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But a Manischewitz view of the world is even more helpful with respect to this particular issue.

[DDD Dad 14333]

23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But a Manischewitz view of the world is even more helpful with respect to this particular issue.

Oy vey

[atomheartbevo 89649]

10 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

You mean like it was before one nation promised another nation the land of a third nation?
 

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours, 
Arthur James Balfour

So wait, do this mean I have to dig out my old high school class ring and burn it because of what Balfour was doing in the 1910s?

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

2. Is there anything particularly “Israeli” in Brooklyn/Crown Heights?

Not at all.  In fact, there's no sleep till Brooklyn.

[Bullneck 19079]

17 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

From Dagestan to London to Paris to NYC, every has Palestinian flags. Yet my HEB does not have any.... What the hell? 

Thinking there could be a business opportunity here. 

I know you're kidding, but . . . 

https://hebfdn.org/

IIRC, old Howard Butt was pretty damn religious.  Anything that would take Jerusalem out of Jewish/Israeli hands isn't welcomed.

 

 

 

[statsman 5457]

Frankly, it does not help the Palestinian cause, in the west, that it is allied with Russia and Iran. War in Gaza helps Russia, as Israel competes with Ukraine for munitions acquisition. That is probably a lot of the reason Russia is carrying water for Hamas. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by statsman

[atomheartbevo 89649]

4 minutes ago, statsman said:

Frankly, it does not help the Palestinian cause that it is allied with Russia and Iran. 

[hayden_horn 11362]

42 minutes ago, statsman said:

Frankly, it does not help the Palestinian cause, in the west, that it is allied with Russia and Iran. War in Gaza helps Russia, as Israel competes with Ukraine for munitions acquisition. That is probably a lot of the reason Russia is carrying water for Hamas. 

To who else should they turn for aid? 

[South Austin 52463]

5 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

To who else should they turn for aid? 

I'd say aggy, but they have to cover Jimbo's buyout first.

[Dutchrudder 11137]

ummmmmmmmm ok...

 

 

[Nivek 16923]

To who else should they turn for aid? 

Depends on the goals. If they want to prolong the war, Iran is a great partner. Russia is a good partner.

If they want peace, try to find a Nato member or western ally.

We know what they will do and how it will play out.

[Bullneck 19079]

23 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

To who else should they turn for aid? 

birds of a feather flock together.

[freyguy 4268]

11 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

But a Manischewitz view of the world is even more helpful with respect to this particular issue.

frankly, I'm a Mogen David man....

[statsman 5457]

33 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

To who else should they turn for aid? 

Hayden, are Iran and Russia resources for the Palestinians or are the Palestinians more of a resource for Iran and Russia?

Iran is helping Hamas kill Jews, but I don’t believe it is actually advancing the Palestinian cause. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by statsman

[Brian Fantana 6685]

44 minutes ago, statsman said:

Hayden, are Iran and Russia resources for the Palestinians or are the Palestinians more of a resource for Iran and Russia?

Iran is helping Hamas kill Jews, but I don’t believe it is actually advancing the Palestinian cause. 

You're not understanding his point. They turn to these people out of desperation, because they appear to them to be the only ones willing to offer any resources. It's a rational decision even if it's a bad one.

[InkaUtexas 25909]

And Russia has always had ties with Anti-Israel groups in the Middle East. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

57 minutes ago, statsman said:

Hayden, are Iran and Russia resources for the Palestinians or are the Palestinians more of a resource for Iran and Russia?

Iran is helping Hamas kill Jews, but I don’t believe it is actually advancing the Palestinian cause. 

Palestine* (not Hamas) gets most of its aid from the Western and democratic world with some petrodollars thrown in. 

Hamas is aligned with Iran and Russia because they are a violent, authoritarian movement that fundamentally share Iran and Russia’s views of the world and how it should work.  Only nations like Russia and Iran will help them, they are awful and so they need awful regimes to help them launch terror attacks.

This isn’t near as complicated or as morally grey as people would have you believe, and the resources that the Palestinian PEOPLE  actually get and that are helpful are coming from sources that aren’t acknowledged because it upsets the big narrative. 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

14 hours ago, statsman said:

I’m not joking. It is my belief that the Israelis are decent people that believe in rights and the rule of law. 

Kind of a sweeping generalization there, don’t you think? What about Netanyahu and his coalition of right-wing religious nationalists who are trying to overthrow the judiciary?

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

To who else should they turn for aid? 

Whom

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

1 hour ago, Dutchrudder said:

ummmmmmmmm ok...

 

 

That’s animal cruelty. 

[statsman 5457]

22 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Kind of a sweeping generalization there, don’t you think? What about Netanyahu and his coalition of right-wing religious nationalists who are trying to overthrow the judiciary?

Ok, you’re right. It is my belief that the concept of Rule of Law is codified in the governing documents of Israeli civil society. 

[Biff Tannen 45674]

28 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Kind of a sweeping generalization there, don’t you think? What about Netanyahu and his coalition of right-wing religious nationalists who are trying to overthrow the judiciary?

I took it to mean the Israeli people outside of their whack job government.  Regular civilians.

[Nivek 16923]

delete

Edited October 31, 2023 by Nivek
beat me too it

['stache 21802]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

Hayden, are Iran and Russia resources for the Palestinians or are the Palestinians more of a resource for Iran and Russia?

Iran is helping Hamas kill Jews, but I don’t believe it is actually advancing the Palestinian cause. 

Putin's sole objective is chaos and distraction particularly when it comes to the US, "active measures" and all. This conflict is politically polarizing in the US and money sent to Israel or for civilian aid is money not going to Ukraine. Go to the Speaker of the House thread, it's already working. They are in chaos about whether to support one or both causes with many trying to stop all aid. That is literally his only interest. I doubt Putin personally cares even a little bit about Jewish religion or ethnicity, the divisive nature of the topic is useful to his totalitarian regime, that's all that matters.

[wildcat09 29349]

On 10/30/2023 at 11:25 AM, Biff Tannen said:

What is going on with this Ivy League anti-semitism thing?  It was one of the questions on a text survey I took this weekend, but didn't understand why they were asking about my opinion on Ivy League schools.  Apparently Cornell had a bunch of anti-semitic threats and some other schools too?

 

About this:

 

So it could've been actual Cornell students, or it couldn't been Russian propagandists, or it could've been some good old fashioned American nazis trying to stir shit up. We won't know unless/until law enforcement actually tracks down who posted the threats.