Israel

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

18 minutes ago, F250 said:

Are you saying that you fucked a slice of pepperoni pizza in Amsterdam?

[Biff Tannen 45691]

12 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

She could yell at me and then call me a piece of shit, and I'd still do it.

I’d prefer that actually

[Welshy 907]

2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Okay. 
 

Shitty nose. Whould not bhang. 

[Welshy 907]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

i once had shwarma wrapped in a slice of pepperoni pizza at 3am in Amsterdam. Do i blame the israelis or Palestinians for that bit of fucking brilliance? 

I don't believe you could fit a shwarma in a slice or pepperoni. Maybe, MAYBE a Shawarma, but that's clearly not what you meant. Honestly, I think what you said is imwosible, because what you said does not exists. 

[Welshy 907]

4 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Food talk in the cloak room not going away. 

Is that bad?

 

[statsman 5471]

WRT above comments on sources of casualty stats- I don’t think the UNRWA is the unbiased broker it represents itself as. 

[RomaVicta 29909]

16 hours ago, kevwun said:

I think the only realistic way for this to end is for Israel to wipe out Hamas and then agree to the creation of a Palestinian state otherwise it's just kicking the can down the road.

Remember when we invaded Iraq as part of Bush's vague notion of a "war on terror?" We'd reduce the number of terrorists overall by killing the terrorists there.

Did it work out that way?

CBS News 2006

Quote

It is impossible to know with any precision whether the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have created more terrorists than they've killed, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Thursday.

In his first extensive remarks about a recent U.S. intelligence report saying the threat of terrorism has risen, Rumsfeld told reporters at a NATO meeting that, in general, the value of intelligence reports can be uneven, and "sometimes it's just flat wrong."

But he added that "the implication that if you stop killing or capturing people who are trying to kill you, then therefore the world would be a better place, is obviously nonsensical."

His statements came a day after the White House refused to release the rest of a secret intelligence assessment that depicts a growing terrorist threat.

In the much-discussed National Intelligence Estimate initially reported last weekend, the government's top analysts concluded that Iraq has become a "cause celebre" for jihadists, who are growing in number and geographic reach. If the trend continues, they said, the risks to the U.S. interests at home and abroad surely will grow.

So, it's clear that using a sledge hammer to destroy your enemies and all the people around them is a sure fire way to get what you want when dealing with terrorist groups.

I'm sure Israelis all over the world will be safer the moment Hamas is destroyed along with thousands of Palestinians who are barely human anyway. They're certainly not like us. They wouldn't nurture a grudge against the people that slaughtered their aunts, brothers, and friends using brutal assault. They'd be tamely grateful that they were spared. They're not brave and capable of the same kind slaughter we regular people are.

But Roma, how would you handle the issue? What's your plan?

Fuck if I know. I'm addressing the fatuous notion that "wiping out" Hamas and anybody nearby or even not nearby will achieve what the quote says it might.

Sure, fight Hamas. Sure, kill all that you can; they're the worst of enemies.

Just don't kid yourself that blowing up GAZA is going to make Israel or Israelis or even Jews any safer. 

It's satisfying to blow shit up when your army is doing it. We Americans have much experience with this. It's the tool of choice for bringing a nation state to it's knees. Hamas is not a nation state. They're not alone in the world. They're not a single nail that the sledge hammer can drive into the ground and be done with it.

I begin to believe the people running Israel actually know this. They maybe sliding down the same vortex we are. They've read 1984. We're at war with the Muslims. We have always been at war with the Muslims. Big Brother protects us from all the fears he created.

Edited November 2, 2023 by RomaVicta

[Neonmoon 38129]

You have to help rebuild or it doesn’t work. TBH, I don’t know if even that will work in this case. 

But in Germany/Japan, the US stayed and helped rebuild for decades. Obviously it’s a wee bit different in this case. 
 

 

[kevwun 15790]

We also leveled cities and industrial areas in both countries.  That level of beatdown was never inflicted on Iraq.

[956 Worldwide 34715]

Huh, look at this.  Probably not much to be concerned with, they’re likely only doing low level street vandalism and not part of what we’re seeing in Western streets.

 

[RomaVicta 29909]

7 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

You have to help rebuild or it doesn’t work. TBH, I don’t know if even that will work in this case. 

But in Germany/Japan, the US stayed and helped rebuild for decades. Obviously it’s a wee bit different in this case. 
 

 

 

7 hours ago, kevwun said:

We also leveled cities and industrial areas in both countries.  That level of beatdown was never inflicted on Iraq.

Those are all nation states. Germany and Japan were driven to their knees. They failed at building empires where they actually hold ground. That's not the radical Muslim anti-US/Israel goal. Mujahadeen don't expect to one day rule the United States or Europe.

Don't forget, we were "liberating Iraq" and to be greeted by crowds showering our boys with flowers and candies (Rumsfeld, again). They painted an image of Paris being liberated. Worked out great. There never were WMDs, we killed huge numbers of Iraqi citizens with air attacks and artillery, and new terrorists enlisted and went to Iraq to fight us. Oh, and we also created a vacuum for ISIS to fill.

So, Iraq the nation hasn't attacked and never has attacked us, but we sure showed them. It's a fucking paradise of democratic order. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by RomaVicta

[Nivek 16934]

13 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Look, I'm no big fan of the UN, but when we're parroting Western media's talking points here, maybe we dig a little bit deeper.

Everyone screams about the rejected amendment but nobody says a fuckin word about this little incident that happened what, 10 days before that, when the security council was actually trying to do that.

https://www.courthousenews.com/us-vetoes-un-resolution-condemning-hamas-attacks-on-israel-and-all-violence-against-civilians/

It seems that the UN wanted to play the false equivalence game and condemn all violence ahead of the retaliation.  But Israel and the US wanted the UN to specifically acknowledge the attacks by Hamas.  The UN then went ahead and complained about the Israeli response and denied condemning the violence perpetuated by Hamas.   This does little to change the story.  In the end, they clearly demonstrated a bias. 

 

 

[Nivek 16934]

15 hours ago, Anastasis said:

@Nivek, B'TSELEM is a well resourced group with observers in the WB and Gaza. They are not a Hamas mouthpiece. You might consider spending some time on their website reviewing their documentation of what has been taking place for decades in the OT. https://www.btselem.org/

Thank you, I didn't accuse them of that.  I just pointed out that they made the graphic.  The source of the information came from Hamas's Ministry of Health which reported to the UN that information which B'Tselem then used.  So when I see that Hamas is part of the source of information I tend to get a little bit like Jack T. Colton "who told you that? the nice man who pulled a gun on you."    It could very well be accurate.  I am open to that.  If they attested to it, I would take it at their word as they have a solid reputation from what I know/understand. 

[wildcat09 29354]

 

 

[RomaVicta 29909]

 

Just in the nick of time. We're using our state-of-the-art Fait Accompli model spy satellite.

 

[DixonHur 11312]

Israel set up a website with videos and images of the Hamas attacks.  Just posting this for reference...not white hatting Israel.

NSFW

Spoiler

Final Warning

Spoiler

https://www.hamas-massacre.net/

 

 

[hayden_horn 11362]

4 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

 

 

it's almost as though, and stay with me while i streeeeeetch, that netanyahu almost wanted this to happen....

[Anastasis 23473]

WB has always been the primary and proximal obj. Gaza is scrub land. WB is Judea and Samaria. The settlers have been running rough shod behind IDF in WB. 

[statsman 5471]

50 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it's almost as though, and stay with me while i streeeeeetch, that netanyahu almost wanted this to happen....

Wow. Just like the Germans will never forgive the Jews for theHolocaust, you’ll never forgive the Jews for October 7. 

[Gengs1 2583]

5 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

 

 

Shocked that this will be a landgrab, who could have see this coming…

[Gengs1 2583]

14 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

You have to help rebuild or it doesn’t work. TBH, I don’t know if even that will work in this case. 

But in Germany/Japan, the US stayed and helped rebuild for decades. Obviously it’s a wee bit different in this case. 
 

 

USA rebuild it because they were afraid that it would welcome communism, Patton wrote about that 

[F250 28777]

34 minutes ago, statsman said:

Wow. Just like the Germans will never forgive the Jews for theHolocaust, you’ll never forgive the Jews for October 7. 

[hayden_horn 11362]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Wow. Just like the Germans will never forgive the Jews for theHolocaust, you’ll never forgive the Jews for October 7. 

so, my sarcasm meter is sort of fucked today.

you serious clark?

[Brian Fantana 6689]

3 hours ago, statsman said:

Wow. Just like the Germans will never forgive the Jews for theHolocaust, you’ll never forgive the Jews for October 7. 

Well that's certainly a take.

[Anastasis 23473]

The posts about the “Rule of Law” start to have some context now. 

[RomaVicta 29909]

22 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Israel set up a website with videos and images of the Hamas attacks.  Just posting this for reference...not white hatting Israel.

NSFW

  Reveal hidden contents

Final Warning

  Hide contents

https://www.hamas-massacre.net/

 

 

Israel's rage is surely justified. The images take this out of the abstract. Horrible beyond imagination. I think it's wise to release these images just as I think we should release images from school shootings and the like. It's different from what one imagines.

This must be particularly enraging. From a terrorist phone:

 

This doesn't change my stand about what the US should and shouldn't do. This also doesn't justify sledgehammering the people in Gaza. I don't believe the thousands of airstrikes and artillery bombardment on such a tiny space that is also besieged and blockaded can all be justified as militarily necessary.

If I'm correct about punitive bombing of the populace, I don't see the difference in how a child dies at the hands of an invader. 

Hamas has made it so that civilians will be killed. Their hands have the blood of Israelis and Palestinians on them. But not all of it.

Edited November 3, 2023 by RomaVicta

[nbmishoid 949]

15 hours ago, Anastasis said:

WB has always been the primary and proximal obj. Gaza is scrub land. WB is Judea and Samaria. The settlers have been running rough shod behind IDF in WB. 

For about 40 years now.

[statsman 5471]

I see three groups opposed to Israel:

-antisemites

- anti-Zionists

- pro-Palestinians  

The latter two groups can make coherent arguments for their stances. I personally disagree that (as the UN once voted) that Zionism is racism. And I think the third stance (pro-Palestinian) is one everyone should have at least to some extent. 
 
The Venn diagrams of the group have debatable intersections (although I contend that every antisemite is also an anti-Zionist, although the reverse isn’t true. There are a lot of antisemites that aren’t pro-Palestinian)

Of organized political parties, movements, forces and factions, I believe Hamas is more antisemitic than anything else. Frankly, they look to me like the Islamic version of the KKK. They have the extinction of an ethnic group as a primary goal in their charter. I think seeing their side is akin to trying to see the KKK’s side. I think allowing them to shelter in a civilian population makes as much sense as making a 40k strong , armed KKK shelter in a civilian population. 
 
I view Israelis as an ethnic group trying to deal with a large, hostile, armed and active group like the KKK. 
 
The West Bank? I’m not dumb enough to believe Hamas is staying out of the WB. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by statsman

[statsman 5471]

Building on that analogy, that video of a professor, when asked if she denounced the terrorist of Hamas, replying, “It’s not a simple yes-no answer”. 
 
To my ears, that is akin to someone saying they couldn’t denounce the KKK (or white supremacists in Charlottesville). Nonsensical. 

[Jatrain 288]

50 minutes ago, statsman said:

I see three groups opposed to Israel:

-antisemites

- anti-Zionists

- pro-Palestinians  

The latter two groups can make coherent arguments for their stances. I personally disagree that (as the UN once voted) that Zionism is racism. And I think the third stance (pro-Palestinian) is one everyone should have at least to some extent. 
 
The Venn diagrams of the group have debatable intersections (although I contend that every antisemite is also an anti-Zionist, although the reverse isn’t true. There are a lot of antisemites that aren’t pro-Palestinian)

Of organized political parties, movements, forces and factions, I believe Hamas is more antisemitic than anything else. Frankly, they look to me like the Islamic version of the KKK. They have the extinction of an ethnic group as a primary goal in their charter. I think seeing their side is akin to trying to see the KKK’s side. I think allowing them to shelter in a civilian population makes as much sense as making a 40k strong , armed KKK shelter in a civilian population. 
 
I view Israelis as an ethnic group trying to deal with a large, hostile, armed and active group like the KKK. 
 
The West Bank? I’m not dumb enough to believe Hamas is staying out of the WB. 

1.) I don’t agree that anti-semetism and Pro-Zionism are mutually exclusive positions.  I would argue that is the exact position when it comes to many on the right. They buy into the anti- Semitic tropes and dog whistles about Jews individually (see Soros, George) and as a group and yet are have a staunchly Zionist view of what Israel should be- primarily due to a fundamentalist view of the Bible and/or the fact that they hate Muslims even more.  
 

2.) If we understand your definition of those who are “opposed to Israel” to mean “opposed to what Israel is doing vis a vie the  Palestinian question”, then I think can you add a fourth group:  those who are Pro-Israel.  A very legitimate argument can be made that the policies of Israel in the recent past and current war lessen the chance of a secure and safe future for Israel. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

5 hours ago, statsman said:

I see three groups opposed to Israel:

-antisemites

- anti-Zionists

- pro-Palestinians  

The latter two groups can make coherent arguments for their stances. I personally disagree that (as the UN once voted) that Zionism is racism. And I think the third stance (pro-Palestinian) is one everyone should have at least to some extent. 

There's nothing inherently racist about Zionism. It is just another form of colonialism with a [thin] coat of determinism painted on.

5 hours ago, statsman said:

The Venn diagrams of the group have debatable intersections (although I contend that every antisemite is also an anti-Zionist, although the reverse isn’t true. There are a lot of antisemites that aren’t pro-Palestinian)

I'm sorry, but what the fuck? This is completely untrue and I'm not sure how you can even twist yourself into a weird enough knot to come to this conclusion. You only have to look at Christian nationalist/white supremacist groups and you'll find plenty of examples of people who are strongly anti-semitic but staunchly pro-Zionist because they hold fundamentalist evangelical beliefs that you apparently are not aware of.

This comment does not pass the smell test, as anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge of this subject would be able to refute this point easily. I suspect you are simply trying to paint anti-Zionists as inherently antisemitic in a very ham-handed way.

6 hours ago, statsman said:

I view Israelis as an ethnic group trying to deal with a large, hostile, armed and active group like the KKK.

Israelis are not an ethnic group. To try and make this argument, assuming you mean Jewish ethnic group, is inherently antisemitic and just plain ignorant. A significant chunk of the Israeli population is non-Jewish.

6 hours ago, statsman said:

The West Bank? I’m not dumb enough to believe Hamas is staying out of the WB. 

You're going to need to expand on this comment. You're saying a lot of weird shit here, and this sounds like you're trying to justify the settler terrorism occuring in the WB with a throwaway line without providing any evidence.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

I would say I'm shocked certain people skimmed over that post without commenting or even pausing for a second to critically analyze it, but I'm really not anymore. Sad.

[Welshy 907]

11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I would say I'm shocked certain people skimmed over that post without commenting or even pausing for a second to critically analyze it, but I'm really not anymore. Sad.

I say this with all humility, after multiple bourbons: what post? Are you saying a person can't be educated on the Hamas Israeli conflict if they haven't read your posts, or your point wasn't recognized with a specific topic/thread?

Again, I'm not my best self rn, which takes me about to mid, I think, so say it slow....

[Brian Fantana 6689]

42 minutes ago, Welshy said:

I say this with all humility, after multiple bourbons: what post? Are you saying a person can't be educated on the Hamas Israeli conflict if they haven't read your posts, or your point wasn't recognized with a specific topic/thread?

Again, I'm not my best self rn, which takes me about to mid, I think, so say it slow....

No I'm saying the post I quoted was distressingly ignorant.

[Welshy 907]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

No I'm saying the post I quoted was distressingly ignorant.

Ah...Zionism aside, your statement "I see three groups opposed to Israel" was not very prescient. I can think of 6, maybe 8 groups that want Israel to fail. To pick an edge case, Ill say Bolivia. . As a more realistic case, Russia and China - any enemy of the Us, Israel or the West. Politics is a zero-sum game. 

I think of Israelis as an ethnic group.

Is that wrong? Half my leadership team is Israeli, but they are not all "Jewish?" Hell, It confuses the shit out of me. I think they would view themselves as ethnic Jews? He's not out of line with that opinion, I think. He might be wrong, but it's not crazy.

As for Hamas in the WB...I'm not there, I don't know. I'd be surprised it they weren't, though I'm confident Israel is the bad actor there. 

 

 

[Boss Hogg 808]

Ok so wtf is going on here. This is unacceptable. 

 

 

 

[Captain Obvious 516]

27 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Ok so wtf is going on here. This is unacceptable. 

 

 

 

Out of line?  Yes.  But at the same time it looks pretty shitty of Biden to largely sit back while borderline genocide is happening.  Maybe he's using stronger language behind the scenes, but publicly it sure looks like he's just going through the motions of asking for Israel to pull back a bit.  Like a parent asking a fussy toddler to behave once, and when they say no, throwing up their hands and saying "I tried, what more do you want me to do?"

[Boss Hogg 808]

1 hour ago, Captain Obvious said:

Out of line?  Yes.  But at the same time it looks pretty shitty of Biden to largely sit back while borderline genocide is happening.  Maybe he's using stronger language behind the scenes, but publicly it sure looks like he's just going through the motions of asking for Israel to pull back a bit.  Like a parent asking a fussy toddler to behave once, and when they say no, throwing up their hands and saying "I tried, what more do you want me to do?"

Really? They're vandalizing and banging on the gate of our executive residence.  There are basic security concerns with that.

 

I mean, are Secret Service just sitting there watching this? Can you go spray paint the gate of Buckingham Palace? 

[Captain Obvious 516]

6 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Really? They're vandalizing and banging on the gate of our executive residence.  There are basic security concerns with that.

 

I mean, are Secret Service just sitting there watching this? Can you go spray paint the gate of Buckingham Palace? 

Again, that crowd, and probably other crowds around the U.S. depending on circumstance, should be dispersed and possibly arrested.

At the same time, no one should be surprised at these situations when the government does everything short of cheer on an ongoing genocide.  

The options here are not only let genocide slide or claim Israel has no right to defend itself.

[Captainant 27678]

23 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Really? They're vandalizing and banging on the gate of our executive residence.  There are basic security concerns with that.

 

I mean, are Secret Service just sitting there watching this? Can you go spray paint the gate of Buckingham Palace? 

IMO, I think Biden is rightly being careful with deploying a bunch of cops to beat down the people outside his residence. Emotions are running high, and choosing not to react can defuse a tense situation. Escalating and teargassing and beating dispersing the protesters would likely only draw more protesters and opportunities for security concerns to occur. 

[freyguy 4273]

You mean like when the previous shithead-in-chief gassed protesters so he could have a photo op of him holding a Bible upside down?

[hayden_horn 11362]

39 minutes ago, freyguy said:

You mean like when the previous shithead-in-chief gassed protesters so he could have a photo op of him holding a Bible upside down?

jesus christ i forgot about that

[Biff Tannen 45691]

42 minutes ago, freyguy said:

You mean like when the previous shithead-in-chief gassed protesters so he could have a photo op of him holding a Bible upside down?

Yep

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

jesus christ i forgot about that

Dude how?  That was like a top 3 fucked up thing that happened with that fuck head in charge. 

[InkaUtexas 25951]

I have no issues with the right to assemble and protest. It is one of our most cherished rights. Defacing national monuments and locations is where I think the line needs to be drawn. I lived in DC for a long time, kiddo goes to school there and lives a few blocks from the White House. She said it has been a bit crazy and hectic, a lot of police presence, etc. 

And Lafayette Plaza across from the White House has always been a place to demonstrate. But across the street, not on the walls of the White House. Oh, and saw somewhere the statue to General Pershing was vandalized in DC. Don't remember him being in the Middle East. 

[UpperWestside 6167]

6 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

jesus christ i forgot about that

I will never forget that because it got me to board an Amtrak and go protest for the first time in my life for a week in DC. Spent the rest of the summer and early fall protesting back here and in DC thanks to that ridiculous photo op.

[wildcat09 29354]

This doesn’t seem great.

[Biff Tannen 45691]

Nope. It’s a religious war.  Those don’t tend to end well. 

[Nivek 16934]

On 11/4/2023 at 12:02 AM, Brian Fantana said:

You're going to need to expand on this comment. You're saying a lot of weird shit here, and this sounds like you're trying to justify the settler terrorism occuring in the WB with a throwaway line without providing any evidence.

Look man, the old strawman argument is a sign of a disingenuous person. He clearly said he believes Hamas is acting in WB or has some role to play there, but somehow you spun it to paint the Palestinian's as the victim again, which seems to be a reoccurring theme with you.   Plus, once again, the settler issue is quite complicated as well.  And the Palestinians in those regions have murdered quite a few as well and engaged in terrorism within that region.   

[Anastasis 23473]

28 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Plus, once again, the settler issue is quite complicated as well. 

Fuck right off with this. 

[Nivek 16934]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Fuck right off with this. 

No.