Israel

[TexArcher 38409]

Disclaimer: I've been pretty clearly anti-Israeli leadership and anti-radical Islam.  I don't see a good guy in this thing; I see two bad guys, and I think the most anyone could reasonably argue is that it's a bad guy and a worse guy, and take your pick which is which.  So, I'm definitely not taking sides here.

Now, to those arguing that Israel should show restraint.  What are they supposed to do when 1,400 of their civilians have been murdered?  We're talking about grandmothers raped, teenagers blown to pieces while cowering in a bomb shelter, babies with their heads cut off.  Medieval cruelty in the 21st Century.  How do you demand restraint in response to that?  And, do you understand that Israel has airblast MOABs that could have flattened all of Gaza in that first weekend?  It can be argued that they have shown restraint.

And, to those saying Biden should be doing more to get Israel to calm down.  Have y'all forgotten 9/11?  Nobody could tell us shit.  We went and killed 600,000 civilians in a country that didn't even have anything to do with 9/11.  I mean, at least Israelis are operating in the right place.  How are we, of all nations, in a position to tell Israel to show restraint?  And, even if we do, does that blatant and overwhelming hypocrisy actually help with the rising anti-American sentiment in that region?

It's just a clusterfuck, guys.  We all want it to stop, and it's not going to.  It's going to get worse.  Hamas are a bunch of pieces of shit who threw the mother of all sucker punches.  The Israeli right wing are a bunch of pieces of shit who don't believe in an eye for eye, because they don't even see Palestinians as human beings, so they are going to kill 20+ for every dead Israeli, as they always do.  And, Hamas are hiding in hospitals and schools with civilians, to force the Israelis to kill an unspeakable amount of civilians.  This is the perfect storm for a war.  And we are powerless to do anything about it.  

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by TexArcher

[956 Worldwide 34909]

We have absolutely done a lot. Probably most importantly, parking two CSGs in the eastern Mediterranean has had the desired effect of ensuring that this did not turn into a much larger and deadly (especially for Palestinians) regional war with Hezbollah explicitly joining and Iran doing much more.  Ironically, this specific action has the “peaceniks” super upset , I can only conclude that they badly want a big war.  I’m at a loss for why.  

[Blotto 23679]

1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

It's just a clusterfuck, guys. 

It was a clusterfuck long before I was born, has been a clusterfuck as long as I have been aware of the concept of Israel, and will be a clusterfuck long after I'm dead. I laugh at the prospect of a lasting peace as long as sky daddies drive the narrative. 

[Fastbreak 3996]

Israel is supposed to have the best intelligence and special forces. Taking out the “bad guys” on a 1x1 level seems like a much better strategy than killing mass civilians. Killing the head of the snake…

You kill a bad guy and people around will be like “he fucked around and he found out”, you bomb a school or hospital and you make another 100 “terrorists”.

[tx 3 putt 77921]

I thought actors were on strike …

 

[Brian Fantana 6704]

4 hours ago, Nivek said:

Look man, the old strawman argument is a sign of a disingenuous person. He clearly said he believes Hamas is acting in WB or has some role to play there, but somehow you spun it to paint the Palestinian's as the victim again, which seems to be a reoccurring theme with you.   Plus, once again, the settler issue is quite complicated as well.  And the Palestinians in those regions have murdered quite a few as well and engaged in terrorism within that region.   

They absolutely are the victims in the WB? How can you say they're not? Post some evidence.

[UpperWestside 6216]

4 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Nope. It’s a religious war.  Those don’t tend to end well. 

I believe people are well meaning who want this war to end because almost no one wants to watch what is happening. The thing about this is that they will never stop fighting. We will be long gone and returned to the dirt while other generations fight this several millennia old battle for control of these barren strips of earth. It’s 2023 and we are still attempting to settle things through war and violence like it’s 3000 BC. All the protests in the world are not going to stop warmongers in the Israeli government from doing their thing there.

[DDD Dad 14369]

2 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

I believe people are well meaning who want this war to end because almost no one wants to watch what is happening. The thing about this is that they will never stop fighting. We will be long gone and returned to the dirt while other generations fight this several millennia old battle for control of these barren strips of earth. It’s 2023 and we are still attempting to settle things through war and violence like it’s 3000 BC. All the protests in the world are not going to stop warmongers in the Israeli government , Palestinian terrorists, and Muslims from surrounding nations from doing their thing there.

FIFY

[UpperWestside 6216]

Well yeah it’s all of them. Descended from the same people arguing over land that ceased to be beautiful forest land centuries upon centuries ago. The European continent owns the record for most bloodshed in recorded history with war after pointless war, but these folks own the record for longest held grudges that lead to wars and battles that never will have an end point. No one wants to be the bigger person and talk peace. The human ego is one heckuva drug.

Edited November 5, 2023 by UpperWestside

[Nivek 17035]

They absolutely are the victims in the WB? How can you say they're not? Post some evidence.

Just go to wikipedia. There is plenty on settler violence committed and violence against them. There is also a bit of history about old jewish enclaves and how they were forced off their land and how some settlements are on those old spots. (Sound ironic?)

Or will you continue to just pretend Pals are the perpetual victims and justify/ignore their crimes?

[Brian Fantana 6704]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

Just go to wikipedia. There is plenty on settler violence committed and violence against them. There is also a bit of history about old jewish enclaves and how they were forced off their land and how some settlements are on those old spots. (Sound ironic?)

Or will you continue to just pretend Pals are the perpetual victims and justify/ignore their crimes?

Post evidence. I have never ignored Palestinian crimes. That's just you living in a fantasy world.

[Brian Fantana 6704]

PS: I think it's absolutely hysterical that the the narrative about the settler terrorism in the WB has now switched from "it's unacceptable" to "well, actually...."

[Biff Tannen 45763]

20 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Well yeah it’s all of them. Descended from the same people arguing over land that ceased to be beautiful forest land centuries upon centuries ago. The European continent owns the record for most bloodshed in recorded history with war after pointless war, but these folks own the record for longest held grudges that lead to wars and battles that never will have an end point. No one wants to be the bigger person and talk peace. The human ego is one heckuva drug.

It's completely irrational and honestly, I'm pretty much at the point where we should just let them kill each other.  It sucks, but what's the point in trying to stop it?  It's not ever gonna stop man.

[956 Worldwide 34909]

21 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Well yeah it’s all of them. Descended from the same people arguing over land that ceased to be beautiful forest land centuries upon centuries ago. The European continent owns the record for most bloodshed in recorded history with war after pointless war, but these folks own the record for longest held grudges that lead to wars and battles that never will have an end point. No one wants to be the bigger person and talk peace. The human ego is one heckuva drug.

Most of the European continent stopped doing this because peace and order and security was enforced on them by first two, then one external hegemon that assumed responsibility for them.  NATO today and the eastern bloc of yesterday served multiple purposes and managing intra-continental tensions was absolutely one of them.
 

Modern day conflicts in Europe flared up in regions (Balkans, Ukraine, Caucuses) where hegemony broke down and no clear guarantor filled that vacuum. Much of the current Middle East post-Ottomans is the same fucking story, it’s not as simple as two warring “sky daddies,” as evidenced by all the kinetic fun between competing Muslims.
 

 The only potential replacements as hegemon either gave up their endeavors (European powers, Turkey), or are too far away and don’t really want the job (the United States), or would really like the job but are too chaotic and shitty to do it (Russia), or are unacceptable to everyone (Iran/Persia).  Turkey pretends it wants the job but doesn’t. 

Hegemony is often better than the alternative.  The best form that has ever been tried out, as evidenced by clear data on peace, stability, and human development, is U.S. transatlantic hegemony, although the far left will keep looking for reasons that can’t possibly be true.  We absolutely don’t want the job in the ME although we care enough to stop a regional war. I guess some of them are really pinning their hopes on the PRC. 

[bolverk 29808]

 

[bolverk 29808]

 

 

For those of you with kids in college, this might be worth sharing.

Quote

 

Friends,

I’m worried about my children. Not my biological ones — they’re fine — but my students, whom I think of as my children because I have taught them and counseled them and nurtured them for years.

They are at a time of their lives when they’re trying to figure out the meaning of social justice and their roles in seeking to advance it.

Yet some of them who are Jewish tell me they’re afraid.

Some who are Arab or Palestinian or Muslim tell me they’re afraid, too.

The two groups are afraid of each other. There have been perceived threats, slights, intimidation.

My Jewish students tell me of receiving antisemitic notes, of seeing swastikas, of feeling unsafe.

My Arab, Palestinian, and Muslim students tell me that speaking out against Israel’s aggression has resulted in “doxing,” and in some cases withdrawals of offers of employment. They are subject to anti-Palestinian and Islamophobic taunts. They also feel unsafe.

Here’s what I’m telling them in response.

First, if Jews and Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims on an American college campus cannot feel safe around each other, they will never feel safe around each other, anywhere.

Second, the only way forward is to reject stereotypes, and begin to talk to one another.

Talking to one another involves listening — listening to the fears and anguish, to the anger and resentments on the other side. Trying to understand those feelings and not dismiss them.

Active listening is itself therapeutic to a community torn by dreadful actions thousands of miles away. It is an important act in the pursuit of social justice.

Third, what does not move us closer to social justice is to attribute collective guilt to all Palestinians (or Arabs or Muslims) or to all Jews, for atrocities committed by Hamas or by Israel’s government. Such mass attribution is racist and immoral.

And what moves us away from social justice is to demean, criticize, or threaten others based on their ethnicity or religion.

Fourth, the war raises issues that are morally complicated, because they have complex histories extending back generations, if not centuries, in which both sides feel aggrieved and afraid.

This complexity can make the war difficult or uncomfortable to discuss. The pursuit of social justice is easier when there are clear oppressors and oppressed. Few feelings are more satisfying than righteous indignation.

What Hamas did on October 7 was horrific. Israel’s attack on Gaza is barbaric. The occupation of the West Bank by Israeli settlers has inflicted hardship and cruelty on Palestinians. There is never any moral justification for the killing and maiming of innocent people.

I’m not suggesting bland “both-sides”-ism here. I believe that Israel has been tragically wrong, that its invasion of Gaza is a terrible mistake, and that it is morally unacceptable to consider certain people’s lives more valuable than other people’s lives. 

But the central issue for us should not be who is wrong. All of us are complicit to some degree. The central issue now is how we move forward.

I ask them not to be consumed by their own rage and fear.

I try to dissuade them from putting their energies and efforts into “statements” that reflect only part of the truth, or believe that demonstrations and petitions somehow legitimize their own points of view. I don’t want them to think that there is any easy way to a lasting peace.

Finally, I tell them that there is no ready formula for social justice. Social justice is a process. It requires the discovery — or the creation — of a shared sense of common good.

This may be nearly impossible for Israel and Hamas, so long as Hamas is dedicated to killing all Jews and erasing Israel, and Israelis now live with that fear.

But finding a shared sense of the common good is an achievable goal on the college campuses of America. It must be.

The core of a good liberal arts education is ethics. The central question is the meaning of a good society. This has been the case since the 18th century, when most of America’s prestigious institutions of higher education were founded.

There is no single answer to the meaning of a good society, of course. It is the pursuit of it that draws on one’s judgment and conscience. This is why higher education has advanced the role of reason in human affairs and stood for the Enlightenment values of tolerance and democracy.

My dear students — you, whom I think of as my children — please know that I deeply admire and love you. But I beseech you not to replicate here on this campus the threats and violence now devastating the Middle East.

Use this time in your young lives to chart a different path — of listening, understanding, and respecting each other.

You may not solve the entrenched problems of the Middle East this way, but you will provide a small beacon of hope for social justice in the world.

 

 

[Brisketexan 105569]

47 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

 

For those of you with kids in college, this might be worth sharing.

 

Blah blah blah.

Reich is dead-on.  Beautiful sentiments.  Actually lays out a roadmap for the pursuit of a moral good.

He might as well be pissing straight into a hurricane-force wind.  It won't do any good.  Hate is the order of the day.  Cruelty and suffering is on the buffet, and it's all-you-can-eat.  This is what we are.  This is what we do.  "Better angels of our nature" my ass.  It may ebb from time to time, but it will also flow.  And at this moment in history, humanity is opening the spigot wide.

Neither audience is interested in hearing Reich's thoughts.  Warn all you want.  Advise all you want.  It's a waste of time.  Humans are gonna human, and that means fear, blood, death, and suffering.  It's our fucking brand.

[Nivek 17035]

4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

PS: I think it's absolutely hysterical that the the narrative about the settler terrorism in the WB has now switched from "it's unacceptable" to "well, actually...."

It isn't hysterical to serious people when real individuals are dying.  This (appeal) might by how you try to win the narrative back, but you have clearly lost and you are quite prone to insults, strawman and other fallacious thinking especially when challenged by someone who clearly likes to do even a modicum of homework on the subject.   

 

 

[Brian Fantana 6704]

2 minutes ago, Nivek said:

It isn't hysterical to serious people when real individuals are dying.  This (appeal) might by how you try to win the narrative back, but you have clearly lost and you are quite prone to insults, strawman and other fallacious thinking especially when challenged by someone who clearly likes to do even a modicum of homework on the subject.   

 

 

What narrative am I trying to win back? Do you think I am Hamas? I don't understand what you're even trying to say here. I'm not insulting you at all. I'm not sure what I have lost, you're not the one who gets to make that determination, especially when I have asked you multiple times now to provide evidence for what you're saying, and yet you still have not done that. Your best line was "look at Wikipedia", like come on dude.

If you're going to shift your narrative to "WB settler terrorism is actually justifiable now because Hamas", I think it's pretty reasonable for me to ask you to explain yourself.

To be clear, that's directed at statsman, not you.

[hobbes2702 13150]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

It isn't hysterical to serious people when real individuals are dying.  This (appeal) might by how you try to win the narrative back, but you have clearly lost and you are quite prone to insults, strawman and other fallacious thinking especially when challenged by someone who clearly likes to do even a modicum of homework on the subject.   

 

 

What are you even talking about?

[Anastasis 23498]

Come on y'all. "Go to wikipedia"? You're being trolled. 

[freyguy 4322]

[Bullneck 19315]

On 11/4/2023 at 8:50 PM, Captain Obvious said:

Out of line?  Yes.  But at the same time it looks pretty shitty of Biden to largely sit back while borderline genocide is happening.  Maybe he's using stronger language behind the scenes, but publicly it sure looks like he's just going through the motions of asking for Israel to pull back a bit.  Like a parent asking a fussy toddler to behave once, and when they say no, throwing up their hands and saying "I tried, what more do you want me to do?"

1. Israel has the right to defend itself.

2. Israel has asked for the return of the hostages.  No stopping the invasion until that happens.

3. Blinken said that Hamas has promised another attack as soon as they can.

So, no, Biden isn't telling Bibi what to do, nor should he.  

[David Dennison 19117]

 

[elfenix 34385]

On 11/5/2023 at 2:09 PM, UpperWestside said:

Well yeah it’s all of them. Descended from the same people arguing over land that ceased to be beautiful forest land centuries upon centuries ago. The European continent owns the record for most bloodshed in recorded history with war after pointless war, but these folks own the record for longest held grudges that lead to wars and battles that never will have an end point. No one wants to be the bigger person and talk peace. The human ego is one heckuva drug.

if we're talking just wars in a geographic area i'm pretty sure china's death toll is bigger than europe's.  every dynastic transition had 25,000,000 deaths.

 

spanish are probably pound for pound champs

Edited November 7, 2023 by elfenix

[InkaUtexas 26345]

2 hours ago, elfenix said:

if we're talking just wars in a geographic area i'm pretty sure china's death toll is bigger than europe's.  every dynastic transition had 25,000,000 deaths.

 

spanish are probably pound for pound champs

Yeah, probably, with Belgium a good running based just evilness. And their French fries suck. 

[WhatTheBuck 28825]

On 11/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, freyguy said:

You mean like when the previous shithead-in-chief gassed protesters so he could have a photo op of him holding a Bible upside down?

It wasn’t upside down. That misconception needs to die. I know it never will.

But yeah, Biden using security forces to violently disperse the crowd would draw the obvious comparisons. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19242]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:20 AM, TexArcher said:

Disclaimer: I've been pretty clearly anti-Israeli leadership and anti-radical Islam.  I don't see a good guy in this thing; I see two bad guys, and I think the most anyone could reasonably argue is that it's a bad guy and a worse guy, and take your pick which is which.  So, I'm definitely not taking sides here.

Now, to those arguing that Israel should show restraint.  What are they supposed to do when 1,400 of their civilians have been murdered?  We're talking about grandmothers raped, teenagers blown to pieces while cowering in a bomb shelter, babies with their heads cut off.  Medieval cruelty in the 21st Century.  How do you demand restraint in response to that?  And, do you understand that Israel has airblast MOABs that could have flattened all of Gaza in that first weekend?  It can be argued that they have shown restraint.

And, to those saying Biden should be doing more to get Israel to calm down.  Have y'all forgotten 9/11?  Nobody could tell us shit.  We went and killed 600,000 civilians in a country that didn't even have anything to do with 9/11.  I mean, at least Israelis are operating in the right place.  How are we, of all nations, in a position to tell Israel to show restraint?  And, even if we do, does that blatant and overwhelming hypocrisy actually help with the rising anti-American sentiment in that region?

It's just a clusterfuck, guys.  We all want it to stop, and it's not going to.  It's going to get worse.  Hamas are a bunch of pieces of shit who threw the mother of all sucker punches.  The Israeli right wing are a bunch of pieces of shit who don't believe in an eye for eye, because they don't even see Palestinians as human beings, so they are going to kill 20+ for every dead Israeli, as they always do.  And, Hamas are hiding in hospitals and schools with civilians, to force the Israelis to kill an unspeakable amount of civilians.  This is the perfect storm for a war.  And we are powerless to do anything about it.  

 

This right here.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20619]

It really hurts to see former heroes of mine like Eric Clapton and Roger Waters go down these conspiracy-addled rabbit holes.

Israel:  Hamas murdered a bunch of innocent civilians. Look, here's the video.

Hamas: We murdered a bunch of innocent civilians. Look, here's the video.

Roger Waters: Who's to say what really happened?
 

 

[InkaUtexas 26345]

Who gives a fuck what this dude thinks. 

 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20619]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Who gives a fuck what this dude thinks. 

 

I do, because it is indicative of the rabbit holes I've seen quite a few intelligent people disappear down over the last 20 years or so. 

I've got a friend who's convinced he has little threads growing out of his body. 20 years ago he would have had no idea that such a thing as Morgellon's disease was even a thing that some people believe is real. But now, having done his own research on the internet, he's convinced it's happening. This dude has a master's degree in civil engineering from UT.  

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20619]

Wow ... the LA Times has a pretty good article about what I was just speaking of --- rock star conspiracy assholes.

 

Spoiler

Over two nights in late September, Eric Clapton used his music-industry connections and his decades of classic-rock hits to draw thousands of fans to Crypto.com Arena in downtown Los Angeles.

The occasion was the Crossroads Guitar Festival: a once-every-few-years event for which the English singer and guitarist convenes an all-star cast of players — this one included Stevie Wonder, John Mayer, Sheryl Crow, H.E.R. and ZZ Top, among dozens of others — to raise money for the Crossroads drug treatment center Clapton founded a quarter-century ago on the Caribbean island of Antigua.

For lovers of 1960s rock, the show’s high point may have been back-to-back appearances by Roger McGuinn, with whom Clapton performed the Byrds’ “Eight Miles High,” and Stephen Stills, who joined Clapton for a rendition of Buffalo Springfield’s “Bluebird” — a trio of Rock & Roll Hall of Famers reviving a couple of the tunes that helped define the baby boomer generation.

On Friday night, the Rock Hall, which Wenner helped start in the mid-1980s, will induct its latest class of members, including Willie Nelson, Kate Bush and Missy Elliott, in a ceremony at Brooklyn’s Barclays Center. Yet Wenner is unlikely to be there: One day after the New York Times published its interview with the media mogul — in which he wondered, “What didn’t the rock ’n’ roll generation do?” — the board of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Foundation ousted Wenner in a vote that reportedly took just 20 minutes to complete. Wenner promptly apologized for his “comments that diminished the contributions, genius and impact of Black and women artists.” But Rolling Stone, which his son Gus now oversees, more or less disassociated itself from the founder and went on to publish a series of hand-wringing mea culpas in which editors laid out the magazine’s evolution since Wenner’s days.
 

Each of these examples differs in its particulars — and stands in stark contrast to the likes of Neil Young and Joni Mitchell, neither of whom has put their music back on Spotify after pulling it last year to protest the platform’s star podcaster, Joe Rogan, spreading vaccine misinformation. But together they raise the question of whether members of a generation that “made striking changes socially and morally and artistically,” as Wenner proudly described the boomers even as he undercut their legacy, have betrayed the implicit promise of the ’60s counterculture. And if they have, should we be surprised?

“Look, many people get more conservative as they get older,” said Douglas Brinkley, the prolific author and Rice University history professor. “And millions have fallen prey to conspiracy theories and misinformation. Just because you wrote ‘Astral Weeks,’” he added of Morrison’s classic 1968 LP, “that doesn’t mean you’re immune from bad science.”

Indeed, though Clapton has been inspiring outrage since at least 1976, when he went on a notorious anti-immigrant tirade onstage in Birmingham, England, the pandemic appears to have been a radicalizing event for him and for Morrison. The latter has framed his response to COVID and various corresponding public health measures as a matter of personal liberty — of freedoms trampled on by “Imperial College scientists making up crooked facts,” as he sang in 2020’s oddly jaunty “No More Lockdown.”

“We think of rock ’n’ roll stars as traveling around the world in a caravan, and here somebody was telling them they have to put a brake on what they do,” Brinkley said — one way to describe the lucrative touring business that legacy acts have wholeheartedly embraced as ticket prices soar and their own record sales decline. “A kind of selfishness ensues.”

Clapton, meanwhile, has focused on vaccines and what he views as their dangerous side effects, which he says he experienced firsthand after receiving two AstraZeneca shots. In 2021, he was photographed backstage at a concert in Austin with Texas’ strongly conservative governor, Greg Abbott, who’s signed legislation prohibiting vaccine mandates and who passed one of the country’s most restrictive abortion laws. (Clapton’s business manager told the Washington Post that the photo with Abbott “should not be interpreted as him supporting a ban on abortion,” as the Post put it.)

However shaped the guitarist’s stance was by his personal medical history, it’s not hard to detect a political dimension to Clapton’s thinking.

“The backlash to COVID presented an anti-establishment sensibility among people who weren’t politically right, who weren’t Donald Trump supporters, but who were able to use that to tap into the same sentiment that Trump always got to,” said Philip Bump, author of “The Aftermath: The Last Days of the Baby Boom and the Future of Power in America.” Added Bump: “You weren’t aligning with Trump, necessarily, but you were able to express this frustration you had about the changing world around you and the ways in which you feel imposed upon.”

 

That perceived imposition is the thing that seems to unite these men, whose birth years, it’s worth noting, put them in the same generational category as Trump, even if the former president never had a countercultural impulse to speak of. After all, COVID was just one front of a larger generational war that’s pitted boomers against millennials and Gen Z — remember “OK boomer?” — on issues of gender identity, climate change and financial inequality. As Bump pointed out, the economic and technological gains of the postwar era combined to “give boomers a sense that everything was oriented around them” — a sense of blinkered self-importance only bolstered by global rock stardom for those who achieved it (or, in Wenner’s case, something adjacent to it).

“What they feel is that they’ve earned the right to speak their mind,” Brinkley said, “and that they’re not beholden to these shifting cultural norms.”

Are they, though? One seasoned music-industry insider who spoke on condition of anonymity said that if 2016’s boomer-centric Desert Trip festival were held today, they doubted that Waters — an unapologetic critic of Israel known for wearing Nazi-style costumes that he says are “quite clearly a statement in opposition to fascism, injustice, and bigotry in all its forms” — would be booked as he was seven years ago.

 

Yet fans at the Crossroads festival and at a Morrison gig at the Greek Theatre in September — a self-selected sample, of course — seemed largely untroubled by the musicians’ more controversial pronouncements.

Jack Freimann, who’s 62 and said he’s seen Morrison at least a dozen times since the ’80s, was sympathetic to the singer’s complaint that COVID lockdowns were keeping him from doing his job. “He’s always been a working-class guy, so I think his take wasn’t so much from an ideological standpoint,” Freimann said. “Little more practical.”

Aubrey Williams, 37, had traveled to L.A. for Crossroads with her husband, Matt, from their home in Charleston, S.C., and said she found it easy to separate the art from the artist. “They’re not shaping policy,” she said of Clapton and the rest. “At the end of the day, it’s music, and that’s what matters.”

A former major-label president offered a variation on that view, saying that these graying icons haven’t seen substantial damage to their touring businesses because few still regard them as anything like the thought leaders they once were.

“These days they’re just peddling nostalgia,” this person said, “along with the crazy stuff.”

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Horn Under a Bad Sign

[Anastasis 23498]

55 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

It really hurts to see former heroes of mine like Eric Clapton and Roger Waters go down these conspiracy-addled rabbit holes.

Israel:  Hamas murdered a bunch of innocent civilians. Look, here's the video.

Hamas: We murdered a bunch of innocent civilians. Look, here's the video.

Roger Waters: Who's to say what really happened?

 

I don't really take the same exchange away from the contents of that video.  But David Corn calling anyone out for going down conspiracy-addled rabbit holes is certainly hilarious. 

[Anastasis 23498]

45 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Who gives a fuck what this dude thinks. 

 

Also this. 

[Don Johnson 4758]

Waters has been an anti semite for years.  This is not surprising.

https://apnews.com/article/us-germany-roger-waters-antisemitism-3aa8d1dadf8d633f2c3274a6a8f9ef6f

[InkaUtexas 26345]

1 hour ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I do, because it is indicative of the rabbit holes I've seen quite a few intelligent people disappear down over the last 20 years or so. 

I've got a friend who's convinced he has little threads growing out of his body. 20 years ago he would have had no idea that such a thing as Morgellon's disease was even a thing that some people believe is real. But now, having done his own research on the internet, he's convinced it's happening. This dude has a master's degree in civil engineering from UT.  

We all know those people. But do we listen to them? I also don't listen to most actors/actresses/models. I mean do you care what a Kardashian says? LeBron's take on China? Elon on anything? Jimbo on how to win? Well on how to fleece a University, yes. Listen to that man.

My point is we, the collective we, should give zero fucks about what celebrities say. 

One reason I like this thread is for the most part people bring sources vs. BS. And BS should be called out. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by InkaUtexas

[Brisketexan 105569]

5 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

My point is we, the collective we, should give zero fucks about what celebrities say. 

I KNOW you are not diminishing the joy of listening to the clever thoughts, voiced in dulcet tones, of Ms. Sela Ward.  I will indeed give a fuck about what she has to say.

[InkaUtexas 26345]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I KNOW you are not diminishing the joy of listening to the clever thoughts, voiced in dulcet tones, of Ms. Sela Ward.  I will indeed give a fuck about what she has to say.

Sir, you need to get over her. She left, onto greener pastures. And Rules Counselor. Bring her up, better post some pics. 

[DDD Dad 14369]

8 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Sir, you need to get over her. She left, onto greener pastures. And Rules Counselor. Bring her up, better post some pics. 

Happy?

[Brisketexan 105569]

9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Sir, you need to get over her. She left, onto greener pastures. And Rules Counselor. Bring her up, better post some pics. 

Sela is not amused by your shenanigans.

[InkaUtexas 26345]

Well when she says something on this subject maybe I will listen.  

4 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Happy?

 Wood. But @Brisketexan would sue me. 

 

[956 Worldwide 34909]

2 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

It really hurts to see former heroes of mine like Eric Clapton and Roger Waters go down these conspiracy-addled rabbit holes.

Israel:  Hamas murdered a bunch of innocent civilians. Look, here's the video.

Hamas: We murdered a bunch of innocent civilians. Look, here's the video.

Roger Waters: Who's to say what really happened?
 

 

Roger Waters has been an asshole for a long time. He’s been openly pumping Russian narratives about how they were provoked into attacking Ukraine for almost two years now. Ditto Glenn Greenwald, and ditto the Gray Zone cited in the video. 
 

Russia and Ukraine is the clearest test of a moral compass and computing power to come along in about seventy years, if you fail it then you are only capable of being accidentally right about anything. 

[mchookem 16514]

personal rant, feel free to skip...so i feel like the gen z person in my life is close to off-the-rails on this topic and i'm really worried she's going to end up arrested and/or expelled in the middle of her senior year of college for crossing a line in her efforts to protest. she is beyond passionate at this point 😒

her enthusiasm is right in line with her Type A/ocd/eating disorder mental issues... she grabs hold of something and gives it 1000% and just won't let go. she's also a leader so she's actually organizing some shit this weekend...i don't even want to really know details but ngl... i'm worried how it might turn out. i actually admire her passion and commitment, and i don't think she's even wrong (i share many of her sentiments)... but not if she ends up sabotaging her future. 

a sample - 'i can't sit back and lavish in my cushy american privilege and future while innocent men women and children are bombed and their history erased! that's horrifying and i can and will sacrifice so that they can have a chance. those kids deserve to grow up as much as i do!'

she and her mother haven't been speaking for a while (nothing to do with this, mostly her moms alcohol/histrionics) and her dad is a wet-brained moronic maga-type (i mean thank god she doesn't actually drink, amirite)... i'm literally the only one she talks to. luckily we are super close, and she does listen to me, i spent the morning counseling her on how her skills and resources could be put to good use in this effort in productive ways versus... whatever she's got planned. but this is a topic she's honestly probably more informed on than i am so i'm not sure what to say or how. i have to freakin google half the shit she talks about so i can at least try to discuss it... but of course some of it is just horrible and i don't know what to say. i read this and the other thread to try and stay informed of developments. but i stg if i have to fly to Texas to bail her out i'm gonna lose my shit 😳 any words of advice??

tl/dr my niece is damn near radicalized and may blow something up this weekend, what should i tell her to get her to not? lol (kidding. sort of. 😐)

[956 Worldwide 34909]

Have you considered offering something else to do? Getting her to you and even a productive alternative that is still supporting the cause she’s wanting to back that very same weekend? 
 

I don’t want to say the trite “touch grass” but getting out of the college and online environment has a way to cool people down. I’m constantly amazed at the ability this one particular conflict has to gin people up to go scream in the streets as there’s a world of people hurting that doesn’t provoke that.  It’s manufactured outrage, and it’s super effective for its target audience. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[Tonesky 1006]

49 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 It’s manufactured outrage

Ruh-Roh.

[Poe It Up 126]

6 hours ago, mchookem said:

personal rant, feel free to skip...so i feel like the gen z person in my life is close to off-the-rails on this topic and i'm really worried she's going to end up arrested and/or expelled in the middle of her senior year of college for crossing a line in her efforts to protest. she is beyond passionate at this point 😒

her enthusiasm is right in line with her Type A/ocd/eating disorder mental issues... she grabs hold of something and gives it 1000% and just won't let go. she's also a leader so she's actually organizing some shit this weekend...i don't even want to really know details but ngl... i'm worried how it might turn out. i actually admire her passion and commitment, and i don't think she's even wrong (i share many of her sentiments)... but not if she ends up sabotaging her future. 

a sample - 'i can't sit back and lavish in my cushy american privilege and future while innocent men women and children are bombed and their history erased! that's horrifying and i can and will sacrifice so that they can have a chance. those kids deserve to grow up as much as i do!'

she and her mother haven't been speaking for a while (nothing to do with this, mostly her moms alcohol/histrionics) and her dad is a wet-brained moronic maga-type (i mean thank god she doesn't actually drink, amirite)... i'm literally the only one she talks to. luckily we are super close, and she does listen to me, i spent the morning counseling her on how her skills and resources could be put to good use in this effort in productive ways versus... whatever she's got planned. but this is a topic she's honestly probably more informed on than i am so i'm not sure what to say or how. i have to freakin google half the shit she talks about so i can at least try to discuss it... but of course some of it is just horrible and i don't know what to say. i read this and the other thread to try and stay informed of developments. but i stg if i have to fly to Texas to bail her out i'm gonna lose my shit 😳 any words of advice??

tl/dr my niece is damn near radicalized and may blow something up this weekend, what should i tell her to get her to not? lol (kidding. sort of. 😐)

5150. 

[Brian Fantana 6704]

I don't think "have her committed" was the response he was looking for, dumbass

[atomheartbevo 90041]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:56 AM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

It really hurts to see former heroes of mine like Eric Clapton and Roger Waters go down these conspiracy-addled rabbit holes.
 

On 11/7/2023 at 10:14 AM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I do, because it is indicative of the rabbit holes I've seen quite a few intelligent people disappear down over the last 20 years or so. 

On 11/7/2023 at 12:09 PM, 956 Worldwide said:

Roger Waters has been an asshole for a long time. He’s been openly pumping Russian narratives about how they were provoked into attacking Ukraine for almost two years now. Ditto Glenn Greenwald, and ditto the Gray Zone cited in the video. 

Yeah, it turns out that every accusation is a confession with Waters, especially when you go back and listen to The Wall.  He's who he has always been.  He's the school teacher, he's the overbearing mother who wants to crush her son's dreams. I have a friend who claimed that The Wall broke him, but I think it just manifested what has always been there.

Be happy that David Gilmour is not an asshole like Waters, and is also an active supporter of Ukraine (helps that his daughter-in-law is Ukrainian).

 

 

[Poe It Up 126]

38 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't think "have her committed" was the response he was looking for, dumbass

It’s in her best interest if she’s radicalized to the point of blowing things up. No judgement here, I’ve done it. 

[mchookem 16514]

🙄 ok allow me to restate...she's not literally going to blow anything up. that was a hyperbolic joke.

but i could see her getting involved in altercations with either counter-protestors or law enforcement that could end up with her hurt or in trouble. she was already pepper sprayed or gassed or whatever by APD back during the 2020 summer of covid and BLM, and she was just barely out of high school then. 

ironically she almost was committed her freshman year but that was related to the eating disorder/harm to herself. she's not actually violent...just really impassioned, highly focused, and rn she's super angry at the situation. 

i told her to write my number on her arm so she could call me if she gets in trouble. haha. 😐