Israel

[Anastasis 23469]

41 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You can kill as many Hamas actors as you want, but in the end, the idea will stay in place until conditions are altered enough for the it to wither and die. Ultimately, it has to be defeated politically to be gone for good.

Hamas was founded by a man whose formative childhood experience was the ethnic cleansing of and expulsion from his village to a Gaza refugee camp. His village was cleansed by a Haganah/IDF brigade that made its way through the region raping and massacring its inhabitants as it pushed them out. You look at the pictures of all these palestinian kids...eight, nine, ten years old... literally convulsing in fear, brains soaked in cortisol and adrenaline, brutally traumatized both psychologically and physically, motherless and fatherless. Well, you are looking at the origin story of the next Ahmed Yassin. And the same goes the other way, the Israeli people are scarred by actions of Oct 7. Around and around we go.  

[Anastasis 23469]

7 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

While Palestinians does not equal Hamas completely, it gets really complicated trying to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians generally. 

This is fucking amazing. Fuck right off DDD. 

['stache 21802]

22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

If an Israel-Palestine thread prompts you to say that the neo-Nazi torch wavers who sparked a deadly riot aren’t that big of a deal, actually, again—— time for an inventory. 

You mean Charlottesville? They weren’t exactly mad about the Jews (except Soros or something). I’ve never been able to figure out how their hatred of Black people has anything to do with the Jews. They are literally morons who don’t know shit. If anything it proves that Black people and others are in far more danger in the US. Even when they throw in some stuff about the Jews. It’s more about love of authoritarians (aka Nazis) than hatred of Jews for being Jews.

Edited November 10, 2023 by 'stache

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

You mean Charlottesville? They weren’t exactly mad about the Jews (except Soros or something). I’ve never been able to figure out how their hatred of Black people has anything to do with the Jews. They are literally morons who don’t know shit. If anything it proves that Blacks and others are in far more danger in the US. Even when they throw in some stuff about the Jews. It’s more about love if authoritarians (aka Nazis) than hatred of Jews for being Jews.

I mean, I’m not going to argue that they are not morons but it sounds pretty willfully oblivious to say that waving Nazi shit and chanting “Jews will not replace us” means it’s not about Jew hatred. 
 

 

 

[hobbes2702 13032]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

There's a painful amount of "Palestine = Hamas" reductionism from people who should know better.

It’s been that way the entire thread

['stache 21802]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I mean, I’m not going to argue that they are not morons but it sounds pretty willfully oblivious to say that waving Nazi shit and chanting “Jews will not replace us” means it’s not about Jew hatred. 
 

 

 

If you asked any of them what that means they couldn’t answer. They probably don’t even know how to identify a Jewish person who isn’t Orthodox. 

[wildcat09 29349]

6 minutes ago, 'stache said:

You mean Charlottesville? They weren’t exactly mad about the Jews (except Soros or something). I’ve never been able to figure out how their hatred of Black people has anything to do with the Jews. They are literally morons who don’t know shit. If anything it proves that Black people and others are in far more danger in the US. Even when they throw in some stuff about the Jews. It’s more about love of authoritarians (aka Nazis) than hatred of Jews for being Jews.

Modern racists view Jews as the puppetmasters that stir up the dumb, violent minority groups to threaten good white Americans and help them remake America as a godless country.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

34 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Ugh, I really need to avoid this thread. Millions of Jews live safely in the United States and in Europe. You're far more likely to get murdered in an elementary school than a Synagogue in the US. The tiki torch maga anti-Semites seem more like nutless incels than serious threats. Terrorists are just as angry at Americans in general than specifically Jews, hence 9/11 as an attack on America in general, even when support for Israel is their underlying beef. 

On the surface, I don't disagree here and I recognize fully what I am about to say is purely anecdotal.  I am not a super devoted Jew, and my Jewish circle really doesn't extend beyond the greater Houston area.  I'm about as far removed from the conflict, physically and emotionally, as a Jew can be.

In the past two weeks, there's been an Israeli restaurant vandalized in Houston and a neighbor two streets over found a note stuck under her mezuzah "take this ugly thing down."  Again, this isn't me projecting one-off occurrences from across the country, this is my fucking immediate circle.

Our plight absolutely is miniscule to what either group is facing over there, and I know we aren't the first group to have shit like this happen.  But don't gaslight us, man.  

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

If you asked any of them what that means they couldn’t answer. They probably don’t even know how to identify a Jewish person who isn’t Orthodox. 

“Stupid, easily manipulated people who don’t understand Jews are being manipulated into waving Nazi flags and yelling about Jews” is not a supporting argument to the the thesis “anti-Semisoms isn’t a real issue,” my man.

[Brisketexan 105093]

19 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

I’ve tried to find reports of Palestinians protesting attacks on, or in support of, Jews, but have failed to find them. If someone could direct me to these reports, I’d be grateful.

Conversely, there are myriad reports of Jewish protests condemning attacks on, and in support of, Palestinians.

This.  @Brian Fantana, maybe this is more what I was inartfully trying to get to.

I see and hear a shitload of division among jews -- it seems like for every hardliner I hear, I also hear dissenting jewish voices calling out Bibi, Likud, Israeli settlement and brutality in the WB, and the like.

From the pro-Palestinian voices, it's really hard to find voices who simply say "yes, Israel can exist, and its citizens should be able to exist without being in fear of genocidal attacks....and the Palestinian people should have the same."  The voices mostly seem to be divided between the "from the river to the sea" crowd and the "who gives a shit about what happens to Israel and jews?" and/or just silence on the subject.

I have said repeatedly that I WANT to be more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, I already AM sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, I WANT for Palestinians to live safely and securely (and I see a separate state as the only way to get there), but the public conversation on the matter makes it goddamned hard.  I can find LOTS of good voices from the jewish side actually calling for justice and peace for both jews and palestinians.  It's really hard to find a significant number of similar voices on the pro-Palestinian side.  That's problematic.

[Brisketexan 105093]

5 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

In the past two weeks, there's been an Israeli restaurant vandalized in Houston and a neighbor two streets over found a note stuck under her mezuzah "take this ugly thing down."  Again, this isn't me projecting one-off occurrences from across the country, this is my fucking immediate circle.

Our plight absolutely is miniscule to what either group is facing over there, and I know we aren't the first group to have shit like this happen.  But don't gaslight us, man.  

And this.

It's been 80 years or so since the last attempt to wipe jews off the face of the earth.  Not "out of a particular area," but functional extinction and extermination -- a "final solution," if you will.  They damned well are aware that the next attempt might be just around the corner, because IT FUCKING MIGHT, and there are literally hundreds of millions of voices calling for it RIGHT NOW (tune in to the arab world, then add in those who feel similarly in the rest of the world).

There is no place on earth where it is completely safe to be a jew.  Just because the machinery of genocide hasn't been built today doesn't mean their safe from tomorrow's building project.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

12 minutes ago, 'stache said:

If you asked any of them what that means they couldn’t answer. They probably don’t even know how to identify a Jewish person who isn’t Orthodox. 

You're a really good poster, but "hatred doesn't count if they're stupid" is a really weird place to plant your flag.

['stache 21802]

13 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

On the surface, I don't disagree here and I recognize fully what I am about to say is purely anecdotal.  I am not a super devoted Jew, and my Jewish circle really doesn't extend beyond the greater Houston area.  I'm about as far removed from the conflict, physically and emotionally, as a Jew can be.

In the past two weeks, there's been an Israeli restaurant vandalized in Houston and a neighbor two streets over found a note stuck under her mezuzah "take this ugly thing down."  Again, this isn't me projecting one-off occurrences from across the country, this is my fucking immediate circle.

Our plight absolutely is miniscule to what either group is facing over there, and I know we aren't the first group to have shit like this happen.  But don't gaslight us, man.  

Certainly not saying everything is great for Jewish people, but the statement was that Jews can’t live safely anywhere and that just isn’t true. I’m Hispanic and look Middle Eastern and get some shit. My friends are gay and had their donut shop vandalized twice for hosting drag shows. I have way more fear for them tbh.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

10 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

On the surface, I don't disagree here and I recognize fully what I am about to say is purely anecdotal.  I am not a super devoted Jew, and my Jewish circle really doesn't extend beyond the greater Houston area.  I'm about as far removed from the conflict, physically and emotionally, as a Jew can be.

In the past two weeks, there's been an Israeli restaurant vandalized in Houston and a neighbor two streets over found a note stuck under her mezuzah "take this ugly thing down."  Again, this isn't me projecting one-off occurrences from across the country, this is my fucking immediate circle.

Our plight absolutely is miniscule to what either group is facing over there, and I know we aren't the first group to have shit like this happen.  But don't gaslight us, man.  

To this I would add— if you’re upset at the Israeli government, ok.  That’s fair, and you don’t deserve to be called anti-Semitic for that.

But if you tandem that criticism with “these actual, real-life, Nazi-flag waving assholes screaming about Jews are NBD. Shootings at Jewish places of worship and other centers, eh.  If anything this is all worse for non-Jews.” 
 

Then you need to have some awareness that it doesn’t lend people to trust that you’re speaking in good faith on the former. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

To this I would add— if you’re upset at the Israeli government, ok.  That’s fair, and you don’t deserve to be called anti-Semitic for that.

And yet, you liked a post from Smax earlier that did precisely this.

['stache 21802]

6 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

You're a really good poster, but "hatred doesn't count if they're stupid" is a really weird place to plant your flag.

Ugh, never said it didn’t count, I said they’re not exactly targeting Jews with violence, they’re driving trucks into BLM rallies. I knew better than to even try with this thread, I’m out.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

And yet, you liked a post from Smax earlier that did precisely this.

You are conflating anti-Israel with anti-Israeli government. Similar to conflating anti-Hamas with anti-Palestine. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You are conflating anti-Israel with anti-Israeli government. Similar to conflating anti-Hamas with anti-Palestine. 

Fair enough. That may be what he meant. I don't think so, but it's not worth arguing about.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

27 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

From the pro-Palestinian voices, it's really hard to find voices who simply say "yes, Israel can exist, and its citizens should be able to exist without being in fear of genocidal attacks....and the Palestinian people should have the same."  The voices mostly seem to be divided between the "from the river to the sea" crowd and the "who gives a shit about what happens to Israel and jews?" and/or just silence on the subject.

This is horseshit dude. If you can't find it, you're not looking hard enough. Once again, you're ascribing the worst case scenario intentions on all pro-Palestinian voices. Frankly, I'm sick of engaging with you on it because you do not approach this subject in good faith, and you're simply blind to that.

[Brisketexan 105093]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

This is horseshit dude. If you can't find it, you're not looking hard enough. Once again, you're ascribing the worst case scenario intentions on all pro-Palestinian voices. Frankly, I'm sick of engaging with you on it because you do not approach this subject in good faith, and you're simply blind to that.

ALL pro-Palestinian voices?  No.  Not ALL.  I've read some posters on here who I think get it right, for example.  I'm just telling you that finding a material number of voices that call for Palestinian rights and also acknowledge Israel's right to exist and be free of constant fear of genocidal attacks is hard.

Tell me where to look.  I'm dead serious.  I frequent pretty typical news sites, the BBC, etc.  I can't find them.  Al Jazeera (which is a decent source for a lot of other things) is TERRIBLE on this front.  CNN?  Fox News?  The Economist?  Help me out.  Where are those voices?  Because I can find jewish voices critical of the Bibi regime and its treatment of the Palestinians with minimal effort.  The counterpart of those voices on the Palestinian side....seriously, tell me where to look, and I'll go there and read/listen.

I'm confessing my ignorance.  Educate me.  Provide me the data/sources, and I'll go there.

[DDD Dad 14332]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

This is fucking amazing. Fuck right off DDD. 

There you go again. 
 

Quality content right there. 

Here. Have a gif. 
 

 

 

 

[DDD Dad 14332]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

If you asked any of them what that means they couldn’t answer. They probably don’t even know how to identify a Jewish person who isn’t Orthodox. 

This sort of perspective minimizes the harm that comes from such stupidity. 

[DDD Dad 14332]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

It’s been that way the entire thread

Except that if you try to discuss anything with nuance you get “fuck right off”. 
 

Funny, huh?

[Anastasis 23469]

5 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Quality content right there. 

As opposed to quality content like “it’s really hard to distinguish palestinians generally from terrorists.”

[DDD Dad 14332]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

As opposed to quality content like “it’s really hard to distinguish palestinians generally from terrorists.”

You know I really do try to engage with you in good faith but when you don’t reciprocate it gets really tiresome. 
 

You know that Hamas is more than just “terrorists”. They’re the governing body in Gaza. It’s complicated separating that function from their violent conduct and consequently it’s complicated trying to separate the populace’s support. Look, I know it’s convenient for you to pose things as black and white so you can insult and misquote me, but doing so only solidifies your reputation as a dishonest troll.  
 

 

[Anastasis 23469]

5 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

You know that Hamas is more than just “terrorists”. They’re the governing body in Gaza. It’s complicated separating that function from their violent conduct and consequently it’s complicated trying to separate the populace’s support.

This is alt-universe bin Laden logic. Congrats. 

[chainsaw 9864]

You can tell it's a genocidal forever war because the win condition is incapable of being evaluated.

"But chainsaw, don't you know that the win condition is DESTROY HUMMUS??"

Don't be fooled by that misdirection. You cannot tell, simply by looking at someone, whether they are in Hamas.

(On the other hand, I have a hard time believing little girls clutching dolls and little boys playing soccer are Hamas. But I guess those are just "human shields" right?)

So, how do we know when Hamas has been "destroyed" if we don't even know who is a member?

By the way, have we even "destroyed" ISIS? What about al Qaeda? The Taliban?

If so, when were the V-Days and how was that determined?

If the US couldn't even "destroy" al Qaeda, what hope does a much smaller military that's wholly dependent upon foreign aid have in "destroying" Hamas?

There is no win condition, unless the goal is to ethnically cleanse a tiny strip of land while a campaign of brutal settler violence is being all but officially sanctioned in the west bank.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Certainly not saying everything is great for Jewish people, but the statement was that Jews can’t live safely anywhere and that just isn’t true. I’m Hispanic and look Middle Eastern and get some shit. My friends are gay and had their donut shop vandalized twice for hosting drag shows. I have way more fear for them tbh.

This is pretty much All Lives Matter— but from the Left, so it’s OK. You’re allowed to care about gay people without minimizing anti-semitism. 
 

Anti-semitism is like the philosopher’s stone of bigotry once you leave the Pacific Rim. No matter what asshole you’re bumping up against- Nazis, fundamentalist Christians, Islamic extremists, Opus Dei, Nation of Islam, right-wangers, Slavophiles, conspiracy nuts, tankies and pinkos, John Mearsheimer— you better buckle up because you’re gonna hear some weird shit about the Jews and Israel.  Every. Gotdamn. Time. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You can tell it's a genocidal forever war because the win condition is incapable of being evaluated.

"But chainsaw, don't you know that the win condition is DESTROY HUMMUS??"

Don't be fooled by that misdirection. You cannot tell, simply by looking at someone, whether they are in Hamas.

(On the other hand, I have a hard time believing little girls clutching dolls and little boys playing soccer are Hamas. But I guess those are just "human shields" right?)

So, how do we know when Hamas has been "destroyed" if we don't even know who is a member?

By the way, have we even "destroyed" ISIS? What about al Qaeda? The Taliban?

If so, when were the V-Days and how was that determined?

If the US couldn't even "destroy" al Qaeda, what hope does a much smaller military that's wholly dependent upon foreign aid have in "destroying" Hamas?

There is no win condition, unless the goal is to ethnically cleanse a tiny strip of land while a campaign of brutal settler violence is being all but officially sanctioned in the west bank.

ISIS no longer controls any territory and after four years of combat is back in hiding and issuing propaganda. AQ is seriously degraded and Americans no longe think much about Islamic terror. There is a level of violence you can apply to these problems. There are still a few unrepentant Nazis around, too. 

[chainsaw 9864]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

ISIS no longer controls any territory and after four years of combat is back in hiding and issuing propaganda. AQ is seriously degraded and Americans no longe think much about Islamic terror. There is a level of violence you can apply to these problems. There are still a few unrepentant Nazis around, too. 

Those are different win conditions. I'm asking how you'd know when Hamas has been "destroyed" since that's what Israel claims it is trying to accomplish.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Those are different win conditions. I'm asking how you'd know when Hamas has been "destroyed" since that's what Israel claims it is trying to accomplish.

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/05/1210734100/israel-says-its-goal-is-to-remove-hamas-from-power-what-comes-next-is-unclear

 

Quote

INSKEEP: It seems to me they have refined the objective slightly. Israel initially said - the Israeli authorities said they must destroy Hamas. And we've heard in our reporting around this region how hard that would be. It is defined by Israel as a terrorist group, but Hamas also has a political ideology with widespread Palestinian support. You can't just kill a few leaders or fighters and think it'll go away. I spoke with an Israeli military strategist who put the goal in a more nuanced way. He said the goal was to depose Hamas, get them out of government in Gaza - not necessarily kill the last fighter, but degrade them to the point where they're incapable of running anything.

 

 

 

[Slacks 6819]

2 hours ago, DixonHur said:

It's a bit more nuanced.

I don't think it should have been created, but I recognize that it was and thus think it has the right to exist.

I believe this about all countries. Territorial boundaries are a figment of animal instinct. 

[grazinhorn 472]

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

You mean Charlottesville? They weren’t exactly mad about the Jews (except Soros or something). I’ve never been able to figure out how their hatred of Black people has anything to do with the Jews. They are literally morons who don’t know shit. If anything it proves that Black people and others are in far more danger in the US. Even when they throw in some stuff about the Jews. It’s more about love of authoritarians (aka Nazis) than hatred of Jews for being Jews.

For what it's worth, I was right there a week before for a Jewish wedding - well, one of the ceremonies associated with it.  My nephew (not Jewish, marrying a Jewish woman) was to read from the Torah as part of a "regular" Saturday service.  We attended and participated (?) in the full service.  At the end it was first announced that there would be a reception for the couple - as part of the normal lunch or whatever they usually had - and THEN they spent 15 minutes talking about precautions that would be taken for the next week.

All I am saying is that they knew what what was coming.  There were clearly outlined plans for services and their timing, security that would be in place, and even what would be done with their copy of the Torah (it was removed to another location).  At the time I thought it was a bit overblown.  

A week later I saw what happened, and all I could think of was how prepared they were.  It may not have been all about the Jews, but torches were carried right in front of that synagogue.  They were prepared for what they expected, and they weren't wrong.

 

All the above aside, I hate what's going on, and any peaceful solution >>> what's happening now.  I just don't know what that looks like.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by grazinhorn

[DDD Dad 14332]

25 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

This is alt-universe bin Laden logic. Congrats. 

 

[DDD Dad 14332]

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/05/1210734100/israel-says-its-goal-is-to-remove-hamas-from-power-what-comes-next-is-unclear

 

 

 

I was listening to him today and his insights largely supported my points I was making about it being “complicated”. 

[hobbes2702 13032]

59 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Except that if you try to discuss anything with nuance you get “fuck right off”. 
 

Funny, huh?

What you said was bullshit dude. 

[DDD Dad 14332]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

What you said was bullshit dude. 

No it wasn’t. There is no black and white here. 

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:08 PM, Don Johnson said:

Waters has been an anti semite for years.  This is not surprising.

https://apnews.com/article/us-germany-roger-waters-antisemitism-3aa8d1dadf8d633f2c3274a6a8f9ef6f

Nothing in that article supports that assertion. The Nazis killed Roger’s father. Any similarities to Nazi imagery in Roger’s art are representations of the villains in the story. They’re never about glorifying the Nazis and you’d have to be a clueless moron to think otherwise.

Being anti-Zionist is not the same thing as being antisemitic. Criticizing Israel is not the same thing as criticizing the Jews.

[DDD Dad 14332]

8 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Nothing in that article supports that assertion. The Nazis killed Roger’s father. Any similarities to Nazi imagery in Roger’s art are representations of the villains in the story. They’re never about glorifying the Nazis and you’d have to be a clueless moron to think otherwise.

Being anti-Zionist is not the same thing as being antisemitic. Criticizing Israel is not the same thing as criticizing the Jews.

Except when it is. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

9 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Except when it is. 

“Nothing I ever do is anti-Semitic. Not even my pig with a Star of David painted on it. My dad fought in World War II.” 
 

 

The constant apologetics and downplaying of obvious anti-semitism makes people non-credible when they whine about how being pro—Palestine tars them as as anti-semites. 
 

Ok, so maybe don’t downplay Charlottesville and make excuses for Roger Waters (who has also said that October 7 is fake). Maybe don’t get pissy when your news source is revealed as bullshit Kremlin juche? 

[chainsaw 9864]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/05/1210734100/israel-says-its-goal-is-to-remove-hamas-from-power-what-comes-next-is-unclear

 

 

 

So....a genocidal forever war, then

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

So....a genocidal forever war, then

I gave you the quote. What part of “remove Hamas from power and make them incapable of running Gaza”’ is an illegitimate aim? Be specific on the part that is genocidal? 

[Smax 3800]

3 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Ah the disingenuousness continues.  You know damn well you were asking a rhetorical question.

 jfc all I did was ask you questions for clarification, why does being asked point blank your opinion on this make you lash out with name calling?

[David Dennison 18853]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

So....a genocidal forever war, then

Or until the United States tells Israel to cut the shit.

[DixonHur 11296]

3 minutes ago, Smax said:

 jfc all I did was ask you questions for clarification, why does being asked point blank your opinion on this make you lash out with name calling?

Ok.  I'll assume I misunderstood you.

What is the direct question?  I will give a direct answer.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

41 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Except when it is. 

Aaaaaaaaaaand we're full circle back to anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel is antisemitism. Around and around and around we go.

[Smax 3800]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

I was listening to him today and his insights largely supported my points I was making about it being “complicated”. 

and its 100% correct, peace doesn't stand a chance as long as hamas is involved. Terrorist dont want peace, just as Arafat and the PLO had a 2 state solution presented to them and turned it down. They dont want peace they want to remove Israel from the map

[956 Worldwide 34705]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Aaaaaaaaaaand we're full circle back to anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel is antisemitism. Around and around and around we go.

Stop. Making. Excuses. For. Roger. Waters. 
 

Easy as that. Can you do it? He’s a complete shit head who’s wrong about everything and paints Stars of David on pigs and says Ukraine provoked Russia into invading. He says that maybe October 7 didn’t happen. 
 

Try it on. “Roger Waters is a shithead anti-Semite even if he’s pro Palestine.” Walk back and forth in the aisles.  See how the word “even” is more appropriate than “but”? 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Stop. Making. Excuses. For. Roger. Waters. 
 

Easy as that. Can you do it? He’s a complete shit head who’s wrong about everything and paints Stars of David on pigs and says Ukraine provoked Russia into invading. He says that maybe October 7 didn’t happen. 
 

Try it on. “Roger Waters is a shithead anti-Semite even if he’s pro Palestine.” Walk back and forth in the aisles.  See how the word “even” is more appropriate than “but”? 

I'm not making excuses for Roger Waters. I'm tired of dipshits like him being used as bludgeons against those of us who are pro-Palestinian liberation in this thread.

[DDD Dad 14332]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not making excuses for Roger Waters. I'm tired of dipshits like him being used as bludgeons against those of us who are pro-Palestinian liberation in this thread.

Guess what?  I’m pro Palestine liberation too.