Israel

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I do, actually.

Glad to know where we stand.

[chainsaw 9866]

That civilians aren't legitimate military targets, no matter how much I disagree with them? Not exactly a pressing moral dilemma, but glad I could help.

[DDD Dad 14336]

15 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That civilians aren't legitimate military targets, no matter how much I disagree with them? Not exactly a pressing moral dilemma, but glad I could help.

That's not what he asked you.

[chainsaw 9866]

5 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

That's not what he asked you.

So why do you care to distinguish between innocent civilians and "non-innocent" civilians? What's the point of asking that?

[DDD Dad 14336]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

So why do you care to distinguish between innocent civilians and "non-innocent" civilians? What's the point of asking that?

I don't.  I just get tired of your trolling.

[chainsaw 9866]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

I don't.  I just get tired of your trolling.

It's trolling to remind you of the genocide happening right now? To point out uncomfortable truths about the people who attended the rally in DC? I'm still waiting for an answer on why @Chuckie Finster thought it was important to look into whether there could possibly be "non-innocent" civilians. If you don't know the answer maybe he will.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

It's trolling to remind you of the genocide happening right now? To point out uncomfortable truths about the people who attended the rally in DC? I'm still waiting for an answer on why @Chuckie Finster thought it was important to look into whether there could possibly be "non-innocent" civilians. If you don't know the answer maybe he will.

I've been told that we are not supposed to draw conclusions beyond the concrete words written on the protest sign. so pardon my confusion at your inferences here.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

22 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

That's not what he asked you.

Seemed like a bad faith question. Definitely fishing for a gotcha.

e: Trolling, if you're confused.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Brian Fantana

[DDD Dad 14336]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Seemed like a bad faith question. Definitely fishing for a gotcha.

Meh.  I dunno.  This whole discussion is pointless.

I am much more curious to see what becomes of the assault on the hospital in Gaza.  

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

Meh.  I dunno.  This whole discussion is pointless.

I am much more curious to see what becomes of the assault on the hospital in Gaza.  

Yeah for sure. It's just quibbling trying to score internet points.

[chainsaw 9866]

1 minute ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I've been told that we are not supposed to draw conclusions beyond the concrete words written on the protest sign. so pardon my confusion at your inferences here.

Well, wasn't it you who brought it up? I'm just confused why you felt it was important to ask if I found the sign offensive (which I do because there's no way to interpret it other than as a justification for the ongoing genocide). Is this person's sentiment something you agree with? That simply praising Hamas is enough to strip a civilian of their innocence? Help me understand the point you wanted to make, because as of now I don't believe it's been made.

[DDD Dad 14336]

6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Well, wasn't it you who brought it up? I'm just confused why you felt it was important to ask if I found the sign offensive (which I do because there's no way to interpret it other than as a justification for the ongoing genocide). Is this person's sentiment something you agree with? That simply praising Hamas is enough to strip a civilian of their innocence? Help me understand the point you wanted to make, because as of now I don't believe it's been made.

 

[Dutchrudder 11138]

Happening today, a bunch of pro-Palestine protests shutting down/blocking a few major bridges around the country. 

 

 

[DDD Dad 14336]

Hope it stays peaceful. 

['stache 21806]

3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Hope it stays peaceful. 

The protesters who do this are usually peaceful, its others who use their cars as weapons that are violent. Good think its in California. In Oklahoma its perfectly legal to plow people over with your car if they're protesting on a road, because peoples' commute to work is so much more valuable than human life.

Edited November 16, 2023 by 'stache

[DDD Dad 14336]

7 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The protesters who do this are usually peaceful, its others who use their cars as weapons that are violent. Good think its in California. In Oklahoma its perfectly legal to plow people over with your car if they're protesting on a road, because peoples' commute to work is so much more valuable than human life.

Like I said, I hope it stays peaceful. 

[nbmishoid 949]

I get the feeling you are disappointed it is still peaceful 

[We’reTexas 1473]

They got arrested and their cars towed, impressive effort but APEC was the wrong time to fuck around. 

[Don Johnson 4753]

Death is not an appropriate punishment, but fuck anyone who intentionally blocks roads.  

[nbmishoid 949]

Especially that one.  Just toss them over the side.   Wait, there are nets now.

[Anastasis 23469]

I don’t care what cause you are protesting, you are a fucking asshole if you are blocking roads and preventing people from going about their business. 

[wildcat09 29352]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don’t care what cause you are protesting, you are a fucking asshole if you are blocking roads and preventing people from going about their business. 

I tend to feel this way, but...

 

I do think a key difference is that the Selma to Montgomery marches were announced in advance, and they were protesting something that the people whom they were inconveniencing actually had the political power to change.  

[Don Johnson 4753]

11 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I tend to feel this way, but...

 

I do think a key difference is that the Selma to Montgomery marches were announced in advance, and they were protesting something that the people whom they were inconveniencing actually had the political power to change.  

Totally different and not done with the intention of blocking traffic to get attention.  In most cases, traffic was allowed to go by (as you can see in the photo you posted).

Edited November 16, 2023 by Don Johnson

[DDD Dad 14336]

Eh, I'm okay with the protesters blocking traffic so long as they will surrender peacefully when they get arrested for doing so without a permit.  

[Willfully Horn 8014]

I remember when standstill traffic came with venders selling nitrous from balloons. 

[956 Worldwide 34706]

There’s a very satisfying genre of video out there with German police using compliance grips to remove hippies from roadways. 
 

 

[bolverk 29671]

Israel’s Opposition Leader Says Netanyahu ‘Must Go Now’
Yair Lapid says that he would join a coalition without Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Yair Lapid, who leads Israel’s parliamentary opposition, has said that he would join an Israeli government led by the right as long as it excluded the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and some of Mr. Netanyahu’s hard-line partners.

“Israel has lost faith in the prime minister,” Mr. Lapid told the Israeli network Channel 12 in an interview on Wednesday, adding, “We cannot allow ourselves to conduct an extended war with a prime minister that the public does not trust.”

Mr. Netanyahu “must go now,” Mr. Lapid said.

Israel’s political opposition has been fiercely critical of Mr. Netanyahu’s leadership and many have called for his removal in the past. But after the Hamas-led terrorist attacks that the Israeli government has said left more than 1,200 dead last month, most opposition parties rallied around the war effort.

One opposition faction — the National Unity alliance, led by Benny Gantz — joined the emergency wartime government under Mr. Netanyahu. Mr. Lapid, whose Yesh Atid party controls 24 of 120 seats in the Israeli Parliament, or Knesset, rejected an offer to also join.

But public anger against Mr. Netanyahu has mounted since the Hamas attack, with some accusing him of failing to prevent the surprise assault and of overseeing a sluggish government response.

Mr. Netanyahu has refused to say whether he bears any responsibility for the disastrous failure to prevent the assault. Other senior officials, including Israel’s finance minister and several top security chiefs, have publicly said that they failed in their duty to protect the country’s citizens.

Mr. Netanyahu briefly appeared to blame Israel’s security establishment in a post on social media roughly three weeks after the Hamas attack, saying that officials had failed to warn him of the danger. He later apologized for that comment, but has maintained that questions of responsibility should wait until after the war.

Under Mr. Lapid’s proposal, Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing Likud party would lead a “government of national reconstruction” after choosing a new leader.

The proposal is almost certainly a nonstarter for Mr. Netanyahu, Israel’s longest-serving prime minister, who has weathered successive political crises, three criminal cases, and a year and a half out of office before he returned to power in late 2022. So far, no one in his Likud party has publicly discussed ousting him.

In a statement, Likud called Mr. Lapid’s remarks “saddening and shameful,” accusing him of playing politics during wartime and of attempting to replace Mr. Netanyahu with a government that would establish a Palestinian state.

[statsman 5457]

There is an old joke about a debate club, that was so experienced in their arguments that the points and counterpoints of the argument were replaced by defined “code” letters, to save time. This debate is kind of like that- the parameters and reasons are well known and well worn. It is a very tired game that needs something to change for it to end.  
 
I propose a change- get Iran out of it. Iran gives missiles to Hamas and Hezbollah; if that ended, Israel could ease blockades of Gaza’s port. Iran supports the more militant Palestinian factions; ending their support would provide room for other, calmer and more peaceful voices. 

[TexArcher 37774]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:11 PM, BeardIP said:

I'm sickened by what's happening in Gaza, and I do not support either side in this bloodfest, but it's important to remember how this started.  Hamas targeted civilians, murdering over 1400 of them, out of the blue.  

I don't know how many MOABs it would take to flatten all of Gaza, but Israel has them.  They could have done that, then blockaded all food and water from getting in, and starved the Hamas fighters in the tunnels.  It would be over by now.

But, they didn't do that.  So, when you demand that Israel show restraint, keep in mind that you're demanding that Israel show more restraint.

And, Hamas won a Palestinian election outright.  The uncomfortable fact that no one is talking about is that the Palestinians did, to a certain degree, choose this.  When you elect a militant group whose entire r'aison d'etre is to destroy Israel, you get war with Israel.  The only surprising thing is that it took this long to get here.

Again, I feel for the Palestinians in Gaza just as much as I do for the dead Israeli civilians.  It's disgusting and heartbreaking.

But, the "Israel is the bad guy" stuff is reductionist and oversimplified.  The leaders on both sides are bad guys.  And the Israeli leaders didn't start this.

[immamac 42843]

I’m starting to think that neither side is taking this serious and they are just fucking around and causing as much emotional and physical pain and distress in some kind of global atrocity contest. They don’t want peace, it’s 2 extremist groups going at one another and every ounce of news or media that comes out of Israel is a psyop to convince people of their righteousness. 

[TexArcher 37774]

7 minutes ago, immamac said:

I’m starting to think that neither side is taking this serious and they are just fucking around and causing as much emotional and physical pain and distress in some kind of global atrocity contest. They don’t want peace, it’s 2 extremist groups going at one another and every ounce of news or media that comes out of Israel is a psyop to convince people of their righteousness. 

They definitely don't want peace.  Netanyahu and his hardliners need Hamas, and Hamas needs Netanyahu and his hardliners.  The average civilian on both sides might not like the other side, but for the most part I think they just want to go to their classes or work at their textile factory, or whatever, and come home to their families.

[sheeeit 129]

37 minutes ago, immamac said:

I’m starting to think that neither side is taking this serious and they are just fucking around and causing as much emotional and physical pain and distress in some kind of global atrocity contest. They don’t want peace, it’s 2 extremist groups going at one another and every ounce of news or media that comes out of Israel is a psyop to convince people of their righteousness. 

 

26 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

They definitely don't want peace.  Netanyahu and his hardliners need Hamas, and Hamas needs Netanyahu and his hardliners.  The average civilian on both sides might not like the other side, but for the most part I think they just want to go to their classes or work at their textile factory, or whatever, and come home to their families.

I really disagreee with both of these points. 

On the first, your feelings are understandable in todays world where we are able to view everything in real time.  Coupled with the fact that it really doesn't impact 99% of the people here (USA) personally.  It is not our children and neighbors being killed.  But imagine what the reaction would be to WWII say 4 months after D Day or after Dresden or during the bombing of Britain.  War is hell on earth.  Germany was indiscriminatetly killing civilians and, in turn, German civilians were getting killed in response.  Imagine a bunch of people from Mexico calling the Allied forces barbarians when German civilians were killed.  But Roosevelt and Churchill knew that a ceasefire against Hitler was pointless.  He was never, ever going to stop.  So "innocent" Germans were going to get killed.  Hamas is never, ever going to stop killing Jews.  Never.  It would be great if Israel could eradicate Hamas in a week but that just isnt how it works.  I hope it is quick and that the body count is low but Israel is not going to spare Hamas this time.

On the second, I just don't think that sentiment reflects reality.  It is 2023.  The citizens of Gaza have cell phones and internet and all kinds of communication capabilities.  Yet very, very few criticize Hamas publicly and, to my knowledge, none have given intel to outside organizations about tunnels and weapons.  One can certainly argue that criticizing Hamas is dangerous but it is certainly less dangerous now as everyone sees everything now.  Further, the Palestinians are taught in school at very early ages and taught at home to hate the Jews and that the Jews are the sole cause of every bad thing that happens to Palestinians.  To be clear, I am not defending the Jews.  I am saying that the Palestinian population, from their very childhoods, have had hate for the Jews ingrained into their very psyches.  That is a mental cycle that is immensely hard to break. 

It is hard for me to comprehend the depravity required to use hospitals and schools as shields for tyranny.  I don't think many Americans can understand this.  Hamas literally hate Jews more than they love their fellow countrymen. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Well that certainly is a post.

[statsman 5457]

It certainly takes a brave Gazan to criticize Hamas and argue for new leadership. That should be noted at the top of their obituary. 
 
Im sure a lot of Gazans are antisemites. Ever hear of “Hitler’s Willing Executioners”? It’s a 30 years old history book that put the lie to the idea that the Holocaust was all done by the Nazis and average Germans weren’t ok with it. The average German was ok with it. Antisemitism was in the air that they breathed, the water they swam in. 
 
Years later, Germany has come a long way. It turns out that if you stop feeding hate to people, they can lose it. That is my hope in the ME. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by statsman

[HenryJames 66048]

33 minutes ago, statsman said:

Ever hear of “Hitler’s Willing Executioners”? It’s a 30 years old history book that put the lie to the idea that the Holocaust was all done by the Nazis and average Germans weren’t ok with it. The average German was ok with it. Antisemitism was in the air that they breathed, the water they swam in. 

Yeah that book was shredded by actual historians.

[fuggled 576]

3 hours ago, TexArcher said:

And, Hamas won a Palestinian election outright.  The uncomfortable fact that no one is talking about is that the Palestinians did, to a certain degree, choose this.  When you elect a militant group whose entire r'aison d'etre is to destroy Israel, you get war with Israel.  The only surprising thing is that it took this long to get here.

Hey, I agree with most of what you're saying but I think a lot of people are using the Palestinian election to unfairly assign "blame" or accountability.  The last election was in 2006, 17 years ago, and Hamas hasn't allowed another one since.  Literally half of the Palestinian population is under 18 and wasn't alive during the last election.  And, Hamas orchestrated a drastically different persona during that period.  The John Oliver video posted above does a good job of looking at this.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

No just keep letting him use Ben Shapiro talking points. It's great.

['stache 21806]

3 hours ago, TexArcher said:

I'm sickened by what's happening in Gaza, and I do not support either side in this bloodfest, but it's important to remember how this started.  Hamas targeted civilians, murdering over 1400 of them, out of the blue.  

I don't know how many MOABs it would take to flatten all of Gaza, but Israel has them.  They could have done that, then blockaded all food and water from getting in, and starved the Hamas fighters in the tunnels.  It would be over by now.

But, they didn't do that.  So, when you demand that Israel show restraint, keep in mind that you're demanding that Israel show more restraint.

And, Hamas won a Palestinian election outright.  The uncomfortable fact that no one is talking about is that the Palestinians did, to a certain degree, choose this.  When you elect a militant group whose entire r'aison d'etre is to destroy Israel, you get war with Israel.  The only surprising thing is that it took this long to get here.

Again, I feel for the Palestinians in Gaza just as much as I do for the dead Israeli civilians.  It's disgusting and heartbreaking.

But, the "Israel is the bad guy" stuff is reductionist and oversimplified.  The leaders on both sides are bad guys.  And the Israeli leaders didn't start this.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there. Flattening Gaza and its 2 million residents would be a large scale war crime by just about any definition. Neither Israel nor any of the western powers considered Gaza (or Palestine) a country or Hamas as a legitimate government. So there's no basis for Total War WW2 style. Hamas is defined as a terrorist organization and must be fought the way the US fought in Afghanistan. They didn't declare war on Afghanistan they were there to root out terrorism (in theory at least, this is certainly not the place to dissect that powder keg). 

And comparing Germans and the Nazis to Gaza and Hamas is such a false equivalence it's not even worth dissecting. It's so fucking obvious to anyone applying even an ounce of critical thinking.

[TexArcher 37774]

6 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there. Flattening Gaza and its 2 million residents would be a large scale war crime by just about any definition. Neither Israel nor any of the western powers considered Gaza (or Palestine) a country or Hamas as a legitimate government. So there's no basis for Total War WW2 style. Hamas is defined as a terrorist organization and must be fought the way the US fought in Afghanistan. They didn't declare war on Afghanistan they were there to root out terrorism (in theory at least, this is certainly not the place to dissect that powder keg). 

And comparing Germans and the Nazis to Gaza and Hamas is such a false equivalence it's not even worth dissecting. It's so fucking obvious to anyone applying even an ounce of critical thinking.

Of course it would be a war crime.  I didn't say that they should have done it, but they definitely have the capability, and they didn't.  I'm also not suggesting that Israel be given a bunch of medals for not doing it.  The only point was that Israel *has shown restraint*.  They have.  Period.  If you want to argue that they should show more restraint, go ahead.  So should the Palestinians who threw the first horrible punch.

Again, I'm not taking sides here.  I'm just calling out the "Israel is the bad guy" talking points for the bullshit that they are.  There are two bad guys and zero good guys in this thing.  As if the peaceful Gazans were just hanging out minding their own business when Israel attacked them and started killing innocent civilians?  No, that is exactly the opposite of what happened here.

And, I didn't compare this to Nazi Germany.  That was someone else.

Edited November 17, 2023 by TexArcher

['stache 21806]

7 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Of course it would be a war crime.  I didn't say that should have done it, but they definitely have the capability, and they didn't.  I'm also not suggesting that Israel be given a bunch of medals for not doing it.  The only point was that Israel *has shown restraint*.  They have.  Period.  If you want to argue that they should show more restraint, go ahead.  So should the Palestinians who threw the first horrible punch.

Again, I'm not taking sides here.  I'm just calling out the "Israel is the bad guy" talking points for the bullshit that they are.  There are two bad guys and zero good guys in this thing.  As if the peaceful Gazans were just hanging out minding their own business when Israel attacked them and started killing innocent civilians?  No, that is exactly the opposite of what happened here.

And, I didn't compare this to Nazi Germany.  That was someone else.

I guess I don't consider refusing to exterminate 2 million people as any form of restraint, its just following international law. The US could have leveled a lot of places over the years, I don't really consider it restraint that we didn't. I agree there are mostly bad guys in this, but the Israelis haven't been blockaded and starved for decades, so I have some sympathy for civilians in Gaza, children especially, even if the adults there otherwise harbor bad feeling or whatnot. And yes, of course I also have sympathy for victims of Hamas terrorism, just as I do victims of terrorism anywhere else in the world. I don't view terrorism in Israel as all that different, but the western world does, and I'm not a fan of that in general.

Edited November 17, 2023 by 'stache

[henrygandorf 29189]

On 11/15/2023 at 12:11 PM, BeardIP said:

to add to this, hamas knows israel cares about civilians.  why else would they hide their bases of operation in hospitals and schools.

 

1 hour ago, sheeeit said:

Further, the Palestinians are taught in school at very early ages and taught at home to hate the Jews and that the Jews are the sole cause of every bad thing that happens to Palestinians.  To be clear, I am not defending the Jews. 

 israel.  or netanyahu.  both would be better words here.  not sure why so many have a problem differentiating.

[TexArcher 37774]

10 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I guess I don't consider refusing to exterminate 2 million people as any form of restraint, its just following international law. The US could have leveled a lot of places over the years, I don't really consider it restraint that we didn't. I agree there are mostly bad guys in this, but the Israelis haven't been blockaded and starved for decades, so I have some sympathy for civilians in Gaza, children especially, even if the adults there otherwise harbor bad feeling or whatnot. And yes, of course I also have sympathy for victims of Hamas terrorism, just as I do victims of terrorism anywhere else in the world. I don't view terrorism in Israel as all that different, but the western world does, and I'm not a fan of that in general.

Oh, we agree on that.  What Israel has done to Gaza for almost 20 years is horrible.  And, it's made Hamas's recruiting job a lot easier.  I'm no fan of Israel's leadership.

But, what are they supposed to do when 1400 of their civilians are killed in the most heinous ways possible?

What level of response would people accept?

It's just a clusterfuck with two sets of bloodthirsty, hateful leaders giving each other reasons to keep killing each other.  Both sides have very legitimate claims to vendetta right now.  So, it's going to continue to escalate.  Yay, world.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

1 minute ago, TexArcher said:

Oh, we agree on that.  What Israel has done to Gaza for almost 20 years is horrible.  And, it's made Hamas's recruiting job a lot easier.  I'm no fan of Israel's leadership.

But, what are they supposed to do when 1400 of their civilians are killed in the most heinous ways possible?

What level of response would people accept?

It's just insanely uncanny how this is, like, almost word for word how Piers Morgan opens his jank ass debates with pro-Palestinian voices on his dumbass show.

[sheeeit 129]

5 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

to add to this, hamas knows israel cares about civilians.  why else would they hide their bases of operation in hospitals and schools.

 

 israel.  or netanyahu.  both would be better words here.  not sure why so many have a problem differentiating.

You are correct if we are talking about right now.  My point was that the Palestinians have hated the Jews and have been calling for their extermination almost throughout history.  They have raised their children preaching violence and death to Jews for a long time.  Certainly well before Israel or Netanyahu.  No one can possibly understand all of the history between the two.  Perhaps some hate of Jews is justified from history.  But no hate is justification for calling for mass extermination of a group of people. 

['stache 21806]

My only answer on "what should they do" is to pursue Hamas as a terrorist organization and not a government of 2 million people in Gaza despite that janky ass "election" from forever ago that keeps getting parroted. Terrorism is going to exist, it does a bunch of other places, we seem to treat this situation so much differently though, and that's where I disagree. 

[henrygandorf 29189]

2 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

You are correct if we are talking about right now.  My point was that the Palestinians have hated the Jews and have been calling for their extermination almost throughout history.  They have raised their children preaching violence and death to Jews for a long time.  Certainly well before Israel or Netanyahu.  No one can possibly understand all of the history between the two.  Perhaps some hate of Jews is justified from history.  But no hate is justification for calling for mass extermination of a group of people. 

we are talking about right now.

you're saying you're not defending the jews.  you should be.  it's not a monolith.  if you don't agree with what israel or netanyahu is doing, that's ok.  but saying you're not defending the jews is not what you're trying to say i don't think.  but i could be wrong.

why is some hate of jews justified from history?

[Blotto 23498]

41 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

It's just a clusterfuck with two sets of bloodthirsty, hateful leaders giving each other reasons to keep killing each other.  Both sides have very legitimate claims to vendetta right now.  So, it's going to continue to escalate.  Yay, world.

Its too bad. I really thought Kushner got all this ironed out a few years back. I  just don't know anymore. If the Kushman wasn't able to put an end to all of this, who can? 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Blotto

[Neonmoon 38129]

20 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Its too bad. I really though Kushner got all this ironed out a few years back. I  just dont know  anymore. If the Kushman wasnt able to put an end to all of this, who can? 

[Neonmoon 38129]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

No just keep letting him use Ben Shapiro talking points. It's great.

What are the Ben Shapiro talking points? I missed the memo 

[mchookem 16330]

35 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's just insanely uncanny how this is, like, almost word for word how Piers Morgan opens his jank ass debates with pro-Palestinian voices on his dumbass show.

okay i guess? (i wouldn't know)...but how is that perspective wrong? 🤔

what Israel has done to Gaza is horrible. it has undoubtedly made Hamas' goals easier. but no country on earth would let 10/7 happen without violent retaliation. we certainly didn't. 

i don't know what Ben Shapiro or Piers Morgan have said but i don't think it's a talking points conspiracy to state what is a pretty logical human position.