Israel

[Brian Fantana 6685]

1 minute ago, mchookem said:

okay i guess? (i wouldn't know)...but how is that perspective wrong? 🤔

what Israel has done to Gaza is horrible. it has undoubtedly made Hamas' goals easier. but no country on earth would let 10/7 happen without violent retaliation. we certainly didn't. 

i don't know what Ben Shapiro or Piers Morgan have said but i don't think it's a talking points conspiracy to state what is a pretty logical human position. 

I'm not saying it's a conspiracy or anything, it's just a very reactionary viewpoint shared by most right-wing lunatics.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Not to mention, it's a ridiculous fucking question to ask. Like ask yourself honestly, how is someone supposed to respond to that? It's a cringe debatelord type of question. You want me to tell you exactly how many dead Palestinians is acceptable? 

[sheeeit 129]

30 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I guess I don't consider refusing to exterminate 2 million people as any form of restraint, its just following international law. The US could have leveled a lot of places over the years, I don't really consider it restraint that we didn't. I agree there are mostly bad guys in this, but the Israelis haven't been blockaded and starved for decades, so I have some sympathy for civilians in Gaza, children especially, even if the adults there otherwise harbor bad feeling or whatnot. And yes, of course I also have sympathy for victims of Hamas terrorism, just as I do victims of terrorism anywhere else in the world. I don't view terrorism in Israel as all that different, but the western world does, and I'm not a fan of that in general.

This is an interesting post and one that I think a lot of people agree with.  To me, it is just a feel good response by people who are detached from the issue and have no skin in the game.  It is also a very general use of the word terrorism.

When you say the Israelis havent been blockaded and starved, you offer no reason why that has occurred.  You seem to insinuate that the Israelis are doing it out of spite or meanness.  It is not a disputed fact that rocket fire and suicide bombers were routinely coming out of Gaza and into Israel for years and years before Israel cut off the passageways.   It is not a diputed fact that Iran/Hezbollah were sneaking weapons into Gaza through the passages that were open.  What is Israel to do? 

Why has Egypt kept their border with Gaza closed during the same period?  Why are they not called out by you and others to help with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza due to the blockade?  Gaza is tiny.  More than enough aid could come through Egypt to care for the whole country.  Would you try to equivocate the response if Hamas had attacked Egypt on Oct 7?  Would you or anyone have condemned their response?  Maybe I have missed it but I do not recall any pro palestinian spokesperson or leader or Hamas or anyone that has condemned Egypt over the last decades due to the blockade. 

And Jewish Israel and Arab Egypt enjoy normal realtions and have hundreds of millions of trade between them. 

And what I mean by detached is that we in the US have the luxury of making comments like "I dont view terrorism in Israel as all that different".  But you would think it was different if you lived in Israel and had family members killed by those terrorist acts that you seem so indifferent about.  Attacks that have gone on for decades unabated. 

I am frankly amazed that people who constantly poke a bear are then horrified when the bear eats them.

I do not see any chance of Israel stopping short of eradicating Hamas from Gaza.  My hope is that it is done as quickly as possible and with as few casualties as possible.  Then I hope the world pours a lot of money into Gaza to rebuild and establishes a temporary international police force in Gaza to keep a Hamas like group from reforming and allows the Palestinians to actually self govern and live in peace. 

[mchookem 16330]

 i do agree that 'well the Palestinians elected Hamas so FAFO!' is a bad faith position in 2023.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

I'm so glad sheeit has found this thread so we can rehash the exact same discussion that has been had a dozen times already because he's too fucking lazy to read the thread.

[chainsaw 9866]

1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

Israel *has shown restraint*.  They have.  Period.

The ratio of civilians to militants is like 100-1 (the "savages" of Hamas killed 1200 of which like 300-400 were soldiers, which is at worst a ratio of 4-1). If you want to call Israel's collective punishment "restraint" go ahead, but it's still against the law and Biden is just allowing it to happen and even trying to give $14B more for the effort.

[TexArcher 37774]

11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Not to mention, it's a ridiculous fucking question to ask. Like ask yourself honestly, how is someone supposed to respond to that? It's a cringe debatelord type of question. You want me to tell you exactly how many dead Palestinians is acceptable? 

Bullshit.  When people yell, "This is too much!" it is entirely fair to respond, "Okay, where's the line, then?"

And, you can fuck all the way off with the comparisons to Shapiro and Piers.  It's pretty clear you didn't read my entire posts.  I'm not even close to being a right winger, and, as stated half a dozen times in this very thread, I'm not pro-Israel or anti-Palestinian.  I've been equally critical of both sides.

Edited November 17, 2023 by TexArcher

['stache 21806]

Any long cat post that doesn't address the history of the conflict that goes well beyond religious differences is missing the point and just an extended version of "I Support Israel's Right To Defend Itself." Should be an acronym by now.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

7 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Bullshit.  When people yell, "This is too much!" it is entirely fair to respond, "Okay, where's the line, then?"

And, you can fuck all the way off with the comparisons to Shapiro and Piers.  It's pretty clear you didn't read my entire posts.

I sincerely am not trying to compare you to those dipshits, I'm simply trying to illustrate how deeply right wing taking points are embedded in the Western media apparatus when it comes to this issue especially. I apologize because I can see how it came off that way.

It may seem like a valid question on the surface, but honestly, how do you expect anyone to answer that question? What kind of answer are you expecting when you ask it? Really ponder these questions.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Brian Fantana

[sheeeit 129]

38 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

we are talking about right now.

you're saying you're not defending the jews.  you should be.  it's not a monolith.  if you don't agree with what israel or netanyahu is doing, that's ok.  but saying you're not defending the jews is not what you're trying to say i don't think.  but i could be wrong.

why is some hate of jews justified from history?

I understand your point.  And you are correct.  I am saying that it is likely that events have occurred throughout history that would cause some hatred of jews.  Just like there is hatred of any societies that have had conflict.  I am sure there are chinese that hate japanese due to the atrocities prior to ww2.  I am sure there are americans that hate japanese for pearl harbor or japanese that hate americans for Hiroshima etc.  And sure the hatred should be reserved for the leaders but that just defies human nature.  But all of those societies have seemed to evolve to some extent and are willing to be mostly peaceful.  The palestinians seem to not want to evolve.  They continue to foment hatred and wish violence on the jews and they teach it to their children as a religion. 

[statsman 5457]

25 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

The ratio of civilians to militants is like 100-1 (the "savages" of Hamas killed 1200 of which like 300-400 were soldiers, which is at worst a ratio of 4-1). If you want to call Israel's collective punishment "restraint" go ahead, but it's still against the law and Biden is just allowing it to happen and even trying to give $14B more for the effort.

What do you mean “against the law”? Which law? Whose law?

 This is not a police action. It is a war. ICC laws may apply. Geneva convention may apply. 
 
You may have a political disagreement with US aid, but I don’t see it as illegal, nor do I see any of Israel’s actions as illegal. 
 
How many Palestinian civilian deaths are acceptable? None. Nor were the deaths of the innocents acceptable. Nor the killings of the hostages. Nor the captivity of the hostages. T is all horrible and none can be celebrated by a right thinking person. 
 
Hamas has a lot of Israeli and Palestinian deaths to be held accountable for. I blame them for all of this. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by statsman

[Da Fino 2781]

On 11/15/2023 at 1:46 PM, chainsaw said:

 

 

I have a feeling the boat parade numbers were also overinflated. 

[TexArcher 37774]

24 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I sincerely am not trying to compare you to those dipshits, I'm simply trying to illustrate how deeply right wing taking points are embedded in the Western media apparatus when it comes to this issue especially. I apologize because I can see how it came off that way.

It may seem like a valid question on the surface, but honestly, how do you expect anyone to answer that question? What kind of answer are you expecting when you ask it? Really ponder these questions.

Okay, fair enough, and apology accepted.

Left wing talking points are also pretty deeply embedded in Western media.  I mean, all we really get here is one side or the other.  And, it seems to have led most people I interact with to either a pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian viewpoint, where one side is clearly the bad guy, or the worse guy.  I don't understand this at all, tbh.

And, I agree that the question about acceptable retaliation can't be answered, but that's the point.  If you can't say where the line is, you can't say when someone's crossed it.

[chainsaw 9866]

 

[statsman 5457]

Well, I don’t see how any reasonable person could argue with broseph Stalin

[henrygandorf 29189]

52 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

The ratio of civilians to militants is like 100-1 (the "savages" of Hamas killed 1200 of which like 300-400 were soldiers, which is at worst a ratio of 4-1). If you want to call Israel's collective punishment "restraint" go ahead, but it's still against the law and Biden is just allowing it to happen and even trying to give $14B more for the effort.

can you explain why you put savages in quotation marks? 

[henrygandorf 29189]

37 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

I understand your point.  And you are correct.  I am saying that it is likely that events have occurred throughout history that would cause some hatred of jews.  Just like there is hatred of any societies that have had conflict.  I am sure there are chinese that hate japanese due to the atrocities prior to ww2.  I am sure there are americans that hate japanese for pearl harbor or japanese that hate americans for Hiroshima etc.  And sure the hatred should be reserved for the leaders but that just defies human nature.  But all of those societies have seemed to evolve to some extent and are willing to be mostly peaceful.  The palestinians seem to not want to evolve.  They continue to foment hatred and wish violence on the jews and they teach it to their children as a religion. 

then you might as well just say "humans have done horrible things to other humans over the centuries, so some hatred against humans is understandable."  

things get repeated, start as stereotypes and tropes, turn into assumptions, then morph into accepted facts.  people say things like "jews control hollywood" without realizing it's an anti-semitic trope.  some jewish people i know actually think it's some sort of compliment.  it isn't.  it's ignorance.

i've been avoiding this thread, so like some others, i am not caught up, nor will i read 30 pages to qualify myself to post here.  apologies to absolutely no one if i repeat what others have said, as if certain arguments have already been litigated and have become message-board law.

[chainsaw 9866]

22 minutes ago, statsman said:

What do you mean “against the law”? Which law? Whose law?

It's called the law of war.

That includes the fourth geneva convention which prohibits collective punishments.

These laws, including the principle of proportionality (a ratio of 100-1 clearly violates that principle), are binding worldwide.

It's weird that pulling babies out of incubators being a crime is something that needs to be explained. Are those babies Hamas?

14 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

can you explain why you put savages in quotation marks? 

because I'm quoting someone else.

18 minutes ago, statsman said:

Well, I don’t see how any reasonable person could argue with broseph Stalin

I was posting the BBC clip mainly

[RDCanecutter 26422]

20 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s a very satisfying genre of video out there with German police using compliance grips to remove hippies from roadways. 
 

 

He's German. He probably likes it.

[immamac 42843]

So 2 hot conflicts right now going on. 

ukraine is killing 1k/day and over 350k Russian casualties in ~18 months all dead on their dirt as invaders. Tons of Ukrainian casualties as well, but haven’t seen recent numbers. They are in all out war. 
 

israel is big mad (rightfully so) that 1400 people died in an attack that would be nearly impossible to replicate or pull off again by hamas(terrorists). In return they leveled parts of cities and have killed 10k+ of whoever the fuck because they are “all the same anyway.”

whether Russia is right or wrong they are fighting a real war with real objectives, real casualties, real economic penalties and real sanctions. Ukraine is fighting for their existence and doing an admirable job with our aid with all the same real things. 
 

israel is doing none of those things. They are just talking shit and using everyone’s perceived hatred of the Jewish state to retaliate with an incredible amount of collateral damage on an objective they can’t clarify on success criteria. Hamas are straight up terrorists and their solution is “eradicate them!!” Which is fucking bogus. A real war would have the objective of taking over the area, expelling rebels and making the people of that area feel like they are safe and have opportunities in their homes and community. 
 

the nebulous answer if “but hamas is everywhere!” Is just an excuse to not fight a real war, but cause enough pain and try to find the leaders so that the people lose hope and subjugate themselves to Israeli rule and live as subhumans in their little part of the country. It’s absolutely fucking absurd. 

[Tonesky 934]

3 minutes ago, immamac said:

A real war would have the objective of taking over the area, expelling rebels and making the people of that area feel like they are safe and have opportunities in their homes and community.

Maybe they should have marched into Gaza in aggy band formation and asked the 30K Hamas tunnel rats to pretty please come out from your urban hiding spots?

[mchookem 16330]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

 

ahh maybe this is what drunk incoherent Welshy was babbling about last night 🤔

[Brisketexan 105106]

Israel has - as most reasonable folks expected - already overplayed its hand. Because this is a Bibi and Likud-led Israel, and this is what they do. In the end, Israel will justifiably lose a great deal of acts if and sympathy.
Will that pave the way for a new leadership regime to come in and make progress towards a lasting peace? Yes and no. I think there will eventually be a new regime that tries it…but they’ll fail. Because I genuinely doubt the Palestinian people and leadership will ever settle for a two-state solution. Oh, I know there are those who say they will. But here’s the thing: I don’t believe them. The chances of humanity ever finding the sweet spot in history where the majority consensus in BOTH Israel and Palestine, at the same time, is “peaceful two-state solution,” are about .000000000000000000001%.
And, even knowing that Bibi and crew were going to go full monstrous overkill….the truth remains that Israel had no winning move in front of it. Because while the loudest of the Palestinian apologists and advocates around here give lip service to the concept of “Israel can defend itself and respond to the Oct 7 attacks,” none of them will say exactly WHAT Israel could have done that they wouldn’t have condemned as Israeli brutality. Shit, if the only thing Israel did was close off its entry points to Gaza to people and vehicles going out of Gaza, they would have condemned that. Israel firing even a single bullet in the direction of Gaza would have been decried as a war crime. Which, approach, ironically, paces the way for war crimes.
Because if you are Israel, and you are going to be condemned and vilified to the same extent whether you kill 1 person in Gaza or 10,000….then WTF is your incentive to hold back?
Failure of advocates for either side to genuinely acknowledge the rights and interests of the other, even if the other side abuses those rights (the Palestinians have a right to desire self-determination and freedom….but they overstep when they slaughter 1,000 innocents to make a statement….and Israel has a right to exist and defend its people….but they overstep when they kill 10,000 and destroy whole city blocks in response)…well, that failure means that we are in an endless cycle of dehumanization, and the death that follows.

[Blotto 23498]

2 hours ago, sheeeit said:

I do not see any chance of Israel stopping short of eradicating Hamas from Gaza.  My hope is that it is done as quickly as possible and with as few casualties as possible.  Then I hope the world pours a lot of money into Gaza to rebuild and establishes a temporary international police force in Gaza to keep a Hamas like group from reforming and allows the Palestinians to actually self govern and live in peace. 

I'm sure if Israel throws enough at it they can crush Hamas so I wont argue your first sentence. But the rest feels like a pipedream as I don't believe for a second they can keep another Hamas from forming. The fact that Israel has been at conflict with its neighbors since the exact moment it was established tells me this shit will go on long after I'm dead. The root cause isn't really one or two policies or actions that Israel implements. The root cause is that Israel exists. The Palestinians want their land back and Israel is going the opposite direction with additional settlements/expansion. 

And then you mix in the regional and global power brokers with their own self-serving motivations and ample arms supply, sprinkle in a healthy dose of sky-daddy fanaticism and you're left with a never-ending massive shitfuck. 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Blotto

[Neonmoon 38129]

Thought exercise

If the German or Japanese citizens had Instagram and Twitter (or 247 news) do you think any Americans would have cared about the thousands of civilians that died during the bombing of Munich or Hiroshima? 

Follow Up

How many additional US soldiers would have died if we didn’t? Would that be acceptable? 

People look fondly back at the US eradicating the Nazis and Japanese Empire because they couldn’t see the human cost. And still don’t. Americans tend to whitewash shit. 

I am in no way advocating for the killing of civilians. I am trying to juxtapose the current situation to the past. If Israel is committing genocide, didn’t the US commit genocide? if not, what’s the difference?
 

[Chopper 17230]

2 hours ago, sheeeit said:

Why has Egypt kept their border with Gaza closed during the same period?  Why are they not called out by you and others to help with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza due to the blockade?  Gaza is tiny.  More than enough aid could come through Egypt to care for the whole country.  Would you try to equivocate the response if Hamas had attacked Egypt on Oct 7?  Would you or anyone have condemned their response?  Maybe I have missed it but I do not recall any pro palestinian spokesperson or leader or Hamas or anyone that has condemned Egypt over the last decades due to the blockade. 

Just to add to this, why has Hezbollah with their thousands of missiles pointed at Israel said this is not their fight. Where's Egypt and even Iran on outwardly supporting Hamas after the attack. All of Hamas' former allies are MIA. It's really something to watch the far left in the US pick up the fight where Hamas' traditional allies have noped the fuck out.

48 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

but they overstep when they slaughter 1,000 innocents to make a statement….and Israel has a right to exist and defend its people….but they overstep when they kill 10,000 and destroy whole city

I just want to add that the disgusting method of violating women, murdering them, and beheading infants, targeting and murdering party-goers at a kibbutz plays into this, as well as the fact that in the weeks after the attack they fired thousands of missiles from Gaza toward Israel.

Moving on to the @chainsaw's of the world...Hamas' ploy to bring the Palestinian situation back to the front pages has certainly worked but not in the way they hoped. As long as Israel isn't purposely targeting civilians, there's not much they can do wrong in my book as they seek to terminate Hamas. If they want peace and to save the people of Gaza, the way for Hamas to do that is by full and unconditional surrender. You don't start a war and then expect your target to let it pass merely because you've done a great job of hiding yourself behind women and children. Those are the people they profess to care deeply about? If you believe that, I've got a goddamn bridge made of pure gold to sell you.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Chopper

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Nvm man, that kind of post isn't worth engaging with.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Brian Fantana

[immamac 42843]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Thought exercise

If the German or Japanese citizens had Instagram and Twitter (or 247 news) do you think any Americans would have cared about the thousands of civilians that died during the bombing of Munich or Hiroshima? 

Follow Up

How many additional US soldiers would have died if we didn’t? Would that be acceptable? 

People look fondly back at the US eradicating the Nazis and Japanese Empire because they couldn’t see the human cost. And still don’t. Americans tend to whitewash shit. 

I am in no way advocating for the killing of civilians. I am trying to juxtapose the current situation to the past. If Israel is committing genocide, didn’t the US commit genocide? if not, what’s the difference?
 

The US, much like Russia (also not clean, but not really "monsters" here outside of weird shit like bucha) had actual military objectives and a tangible end/measure of success/failure. 

What does success look like for Israel? What does it look like for Hamas? 

^^This is the problem, there is no such thing as success. There is no end to the operation, there is no meaningful change to come. 

[956 Worldwide 34706]

2 hours ago, immamac said:

So 2 hot conflicts right now going on. 

ukraine is killing 1k/day and over 350k Russian casualties in ~18 months all dead on their dirt as invaders. Tons of Ukrainian casualties as well, but haven’t seen recent numbers. They are in all out war. 
 

israel is big mad (rightfully so) that 1400 people died in an attack that would be nearly impossible to replicate or pull off again by hamas(terrorists). In return they leveled parts of cities and have killed 10k+ of whoever the fuck because they are “all the same anyway.”

whether Russia is right or wrong they are fighting a real war with real objectives, real casualties, real economic penalties and real sanctions. Ukraine is fighting for their existence and doing an admirable job with our aid with all the same real things. 
 

israel is doing none of those things. They are just talking shit and using everyone’s perceived hatred of the Jewish state to retaliate with an incredible amount of collateral damage on an objective they can’t clarify on success criteria. Hamas are straight up terrorists and their solution is “eradicate them!!” Which is fucking bogus. A real war would have the objective of taking over the area, expelling rebels and making the people of that area feel like they are safe and have opportunities in their homes and community. 
 

the nebulous answer if “but hamas is everywhere!” Is just an excuse to not fight a real war, but cause enough pain and try to find the leaders so that the people lose hope and subjugate themselves to Israeli rule and live as subhumans in their little part of the country. It’s absolutely fucking absurd. 

The issue here is that if we are drawing analogies, Hamas is more like the Taliban than they are Al-Qaeda. They are the government in Gaza. They control territory, resources, command security forces, receive funds from abroad, run social programs, and administer the local government. Like the Taliban, they offer safe haven to actual terrorist group, like IJP. But they are a government that has embraced terror as an offensive strategy and asymmetric insurgent tactics as a a defensive one. 
 

The differences between them and the Taliban are mainly:

1. They control an urban conglomeration and so instead of melting into hills and mountains they melt into hospitals and apartments to hide. 
 

2. Their adversary does not have the luxury of packing up their shit and flying across the ocean with a promise to come back with B-2s and drones if they get froggy. For Israel, they are the Taliban next door. 
 

Looking beyond patriotic statements for tv consumption, the IDF has articulated clear military and political goals: to degrade Hamas to the point that they are no longer capable of governing Gaza or organizing complex terrorist attacks across the border. Those are legitimate and defined aims even if (see point 1) you can’t accomplish them without a lot of destruction. 

[InkaUtexas 25915]

Agree, and both sides have a fucked end game. Keep in mind Qatar is fine with Hamas leadership living there, but unlike what Libya did for the PLO they are not going to let 5 thousand Hamas fighters come and live in Doha. This is a major reason Egypt will not open the borders. 

But for every building destroyed, family ripped apart, Israel is creating the next generation. 

Wars of liberation, or Guerrilla Wars, end when the guerrillas win. They have no incentive to stop fighting, just modify tactics. 

 

[Bullneck 19084]

5 hours ago, TexArcher said:

Oh, we agree on that.  What Israel has done to Gaza for almost 20 years is horrible.  And, it's made Hamas's recruiting job a lot easier.  I'm no fan of Israel's leadership.

But, what are they supposed to do when 1400 of their civilians are killed in the most heinous ways possible?

What level of response would people accept?

It's just a clusterfuck with two sets of bloodthirsty, hateful leaders giving each other reasons to keep killing each other.  Both sides have very legitimate claims to vendetta right now.  So, it's going to continue to escalate.  Yay, world.

[MissingInAction 25051]

5 hours ago, TexArcher said:

Of course it would be a war crime.  I didn't say that they should have done it, but they definitely have the capability, and they didn't.  I'm also not suggesting that Israel be given a bunch of medals for not doing it.  The only point was that Israel *has shown restraint*.  They have.  Period.  If you want to argue that they should show more restraint, go ahead.  So should the Palestinians who threw the first horrible punch.

Again, I'm not taking sides here.  I'm just calling out the "Israel is the bad guy" talking points for the bullshit that they are.  There are two bad guys and zero good guys in this thing.  As if the peaceful Gazans were just hanging out minding their own business when Israel attacked them and started killing innocent civilians?  No, that is exactly the opposite of what happened here.

And, I didn't compare this to Nazi Germany.  That was someone else.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. 

You're just parroting a party line of total nonsense. 

[DDD Dad 14336]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Thought exercise

If the German or Japanese citizens had Instagram and Twitter (or 247 news) do you think any Americans would have cared about the thousands of civilians that died during the bombing of Munich or Hiroshima? 

Follow Up

How many additional US soldiers would have died if we didn’t? Would that be acceptable? 

People look fondly back at the US eradicating the Nazis and Japanese Empire because they couldn’t see the human cost. And still don’t. Americans tend to whitewash shit. 

I am in no way advocating for the killing of civilians. I am trying to juxtapose the current situation to the past. If Israel is committing genocide, didn’t the US commit genocide? if not, what’s the difference?
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/magazine/we-hated-what-we-were-doing-veterans-recall-firebombing-japan.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/but-wait-theres-more-yasukuni-arlington-doolittle-and-lemay/282723/

Quote

I don't fault Truman for dropping the nuclear bomb. The U.S.—Japanese War was one of the most brutal wars in all of human history ? kamikaze pilots, suicide, unbelievable. What one can criticize is that the human race prior to that time ? and today ? has not really grappled with what are, I'll call it, "the rules of war." Was there a rule then that said you shouldn't bomb, shouldn't kill, shouldn't burn to death 100,000 civilians in one night?

[General Curtis] LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." And I think he's right. He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals. LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?

Robert McNamara, as told to Errol Morris in The Fog of War.

[956 Worldwide 34706]

4 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

One of the things that never gets mentioned is that Hamas is still firing rockets at Tel Aviv, that Hamas has not asked for a ceasefire, and that Hamas has not proposed anything they’d be willing to do in exchange for one. One thing that’s remarkable is that they don’t want to exchange hostages for peace, they want to exchange hostages for prisoners. They care far more about fellow thugs than their own people. 
 

That’s why is so fucking disingenuous of Palestine supporters to call for a “ceasefire,” a ceasefire applies to both sides. And the Palestinian side doesn’t want one.  And even more infuriating when they get mad at U.S. calls for a humanitarian pause, because that’s exactly what it is when Israel takes a break— one side takes a pause for humanitarian purposes and the other side keeps shooting. 
 

You can’t have a ceasefire on one side.  But most Palestinian supporters are comically unable to say what they mean and they known “ceasefire” sounds nice while few Western publics would be on board with a “unilateral Israeli retreat.” 

[Chopper 17230]

21 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

But for every building destroyed, family ripped apart, Israel is creating the next generation. 

All due respect cause I like you but this take is bullshit. Israel has been attacked by the palestinians for decades -- including at something as innocent as the goddamned Munich Olympics -- yet somehow nobody makes this type of justification for Israel.

[Chopper 17230]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Nvm man, that kind of post isn't worth engaging with.

You seem to be under the impression that being a passive-aggressive pussy isn't "engaging."
 

[bolverk 29671]

10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One of the things that never gets mentioned is that Hamas is still firing rockets at Tel Aviv, that Hamas has not asked for a ceasefire, and that Hamas has not proposed anything they’d be willing to do in exchange for one. One thing that’s remarkable is that they don’t want to exchange hostages for peace, they want to exchange hostages for prisoners. They care far more about fellow thugs than their own people. 
 

That’s why is so fucking disingenuous of Palestine supporters to call for a “ceasefire,” a ceasefire applies to both sides. And the Palestinian side doesn’t want one.  And even more infuriating when they get mad at U.S. calls for a humanitarian pause, because that’s exactly what it is when Israel takes a break— one side takes a pause for humanitarian purposes and the other side keeps shooting. 
 

You can’t have a ceasefire on one side.  But most Palestinian supporters are comically unable to say what they mean and they known “ceasefire” sounds nice while few Western publics would be on board with a “unilateral Israeli retreat.” 

 

Just to be clear, I'm not taking Hamas's side, but you're wrong in stating they haven't asked for a ceasefire.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-focus-length-proposed-ceasefire

[InkaUtexas 25915]

4 minutes ago, Chopper said:

All due respect cause I like you but this take is bullshit. Israel has been attacked by the palestinians for decades -- including at something as innocent as the goddamned Munich Olympics -- yet somehow nobody makes this type of justification for Israel.

yes they have, and not only Palestinians. So go get the Hamas leadership in Qatar. A solid book is Rise and Kill first. It talks about how Israel would go after leaders, from the legal aspects to calling in fire. 

And no matter how long the conflict goes on, more foot soldiers, suicide bombers, tunnel diggers, show up for what they see as their duty. Israelis do not forget either. 

[Brisketexan 105106]

 
Just to be clear, I'm not taking Hamas's side, but you're wrong in stating they haven't asked for a ceasefire.
https://www.axios.com/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-focus-length-proposed-ceasefire

Bottom line: Hamas can save thousands of Gazan lives right now. All they have to do is release hostages. Hostages. Not combatants. Hostages.
Yet, they won’t.
And Israel is the only party blamed for their not being a ceasefire in place.
Again, not excusing Israel’s overkill, but for fuck’s sake, when will Palestinians and their supporters put ANY fucking responsibility on Hamas, which has the ability to put a stop to the fighting as we speak?

[956 Worldwide 34706]

3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

Just to be clear, I'm not taking Hamas's side, but you're wrong in stating they haven't asked for a ceasefire.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-focus-length-proposed-ceasefire

Fair enough, I had not seen that report from Axios.  I think, though, that the idea proposed few-day ceasefire (max 5) proposed by Hamas is a far cry from what nearly every protester is calling for, which amounts to an open-ended commitment. And the Hamas proposals illuminate that they don’t want a window for real peace talks, they want a break to retrench. 

[Bullneck 19084]

11 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

Just to be clear, I'm not taking Hamas's side, but you're wrong in stating they haven't asked for a ceasefire.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-focus-length-proposed-ceasefire

NM.  I found it.

Quote

The negotiations between Israel and Hamas over a possible deal to release hostages held in Gaza are focused on how many days Israel would allow for a ceasefire in exchange for Hamas releasing some hostages, three sources with knowledge of the talks tell Axios.

Why it matters: The indirect negotiations — conducted through a mediation effort led by Qatar — represent the most significant diplomatic effort now taking place that could lead to a pause in the fighting that began when Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7.

• Israel — which after weeks of bombing Gaza now has troops on the ground there looking for Hamas leaders and militants — has said it will agree to a temporary cease fire only if a significant number of the 240 hostages held by Hamas and other factions are freed.

Driving the news: During the talks that have taken place since Israel's ground operation in Gaza began two weeks ago, Qatari mediators have given the Israeli government two proposals from Hamas, according to two of the sources.

• The first proposal called for the release of 18 hostages — including women and children — in return for a three-day ceasefire, the two sources said.
• The sources added that Israel's war Cabinet rejected that proposal, saying it would agree to a pause in the fighting of no more than 24 hours in exchange for the release of so few of the hostages.

The second proposal discussed in recent days would include a gradual release of a larger number of hostages over several days, during which there would be a pause in the fighting. The sources said Hamas asked for five days; Israel doesn't want any more than three.

• Under this plan, on the first day of the ceasefire Hamas would release 50 women and children it's holding in Gaza and can release immediately, without coordinating with other factions who are holding some of hostages.
• After that, Hamas would release another 10 hostages every day for the remainder of the ceasefire. If the terror group didn't, the ceasefire would expire.

The sources said that as part of this proposal, Israel would release, in several groups, Palestinian women, teenagers and elderly people being held in Israeli prisons.

• Israel also would allow large amounts of fuel into Gaza under UN supervision, for use by hospitals and bakeries, and would commit to allowing 200 aid trucks into Gaza each day. The sources said this would require cooperation from nearby Egypt.

Behind the scenes: The negotiations have been hindered by difficulties in communicating with Hamas leaders in Gaza, one of the sources said.

 

• Another hurdle: Because Hamas doesn't have all the civilian hostages in Gaza under its control, it needs to reach understandings with the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and others when negotiating potential hostage releases.
• Several dozen hostages are held by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and a small number are held by a local gang in southern Gaza called "Al-Shabiha."

State of play: Israeli and U.S. officials say there are unresolved issues in the negotiations, and it's unclear whether a deal can be reached in the next few days.

• A source briefed on the issue said the raid on Gaza's al-Shifa hospital by the Israeli Defense Forces angered Hamas and could complicate the talks in the short term.
• Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant said Wednesday the ground operation in Gaza — where the Hamas-controlled health ministry has reported more than 11,000 deaths from Israel's counterattack — is increasing pressure on Hamas to negotiate over the hostages.
• "Hamas only understands force," Gallant said. "They are now willing to pay for even a short pause."

What to watch: President Biden's top Middle East adviser, Brett McGurk, and the State Department's senior Middle East diplomat, Barbara Leaf, are expected to visit Doha on Sunday to meet with Qatari's prime minister and discuss the hostage issue.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Bullneck

[Chopper 17230]

4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Fair enough, I had not seen that report from Axios.  I think, though, that the idea proposed few-day ceasefire (max 5) proposed by Hamas is a far cry from what nearly every protester is calling for, which amounts to an open-ended commitment. And the Hamas proposals illuminate that they don’t want a window for real peace talks, they want a break to retrench. 

Sounds more like a window for what Hamas wants to call "prisioner exchange" anyway. At least one of the people Hamas demands be released is a violent murderer.

[InkaUtexas 25915]

Ceasefires are not peace deal. They are pauses. Sometimes short (like these) sometimes long, like with North Korea. 

And usually they are asked for when both sides are at their end, one needs it to regroup, or there wait for external involvement. 

[956 Worldwide 34706]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Ceasefires are not peace deal. They are pauses. Sometimes short (like these) sometimes long, like with North Korea. 

And usually they are asked for when both sides are at their end, one needs it to regroup, or there wait for external involvement. 

The time asked for matters. Calling for a few days means that you want to regroup. Longer windows means you want a window for potential diplomacy. 

[InkaUtexas 25915]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

The time asked for matters. Calling for a few days means that you want to regroup. Longer windows means you want a window for potential diplomacy. 

And I don't either sides wants international eyes on what they are doing. Also, who would enforce such pause? 

[bolverk 29671]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Fair enough, I had not seen that report from Axios.  I think, though, that the idea proposed few-day ceasefire (max 5) proposed by Hamas is a far cry from what nearly every protester is calling for, which amounts to an open-ended commitment. And the Hamas proposals illuminate that they don’t want a window for real peace talks, they want a break to retrench. 

Oh, I'm absolutely sure Hamas would use that window to shore up their defenses. There's no question about that at all. Still, that second proposal would at least get 90-100 hostages out in five days if Hamas followed through. Those are innocent Israeli lives saved, and more innocent Palestinians could use those five days to get out of harm's way too.

But, yeah, I understand why Israel wouldn't trust them, and I'm under no illusion that fighting would start right back up. But the fighting is going to continue regardless. This war that Hamas started isn't going to end until Israel is satisfied they've met their goal.

 

[InkaUtexas 25915]

Just now, bolverk said:

more innocent Palestinians could use those five days to get out of harm's way too.

 

 

I would love to see it, but where would these Palestinians go? Borders with Egypt are still closed. Why would Hamas fighters not just move south with the IDP's and reset? 

[bolverk 29671]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

I would love to see it, but where would these Palestinians go? Borders with Egypt are still closed. Why would Hamas fighters not just move south with the IDP's and reset? 

I don't have any good answers.

[Chopper 17230]

15 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

A solid book is Rise and Kill first. It talks about how Israel would go after leaders, from the legal aspects to calling in fire.

This happened in my lifetime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre and it didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It took the US what seemed like forever to find OBL and we dedicated billions more in resources than Israel ever would be able to. Revenge is both difficult and fleeting.

 

[InkaUtexas 25915]

1 minute ago, Chopper said:

This happened in my lifetime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre and it didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It took the US what seemed like forever to find OBL and we dedicated billions more in resources than Israel ever would be able to. Revenge is both difficult and fleeting.

 

Yeah, that is why it is a good book. It goes back to the beginning and follows through. And I know the Sword of Gideon operation. 

OBL was in hiding, and probably being protected some powerful people. And we went in. What would it be like if Mossad killed Hamas leaders around the Gulf States? 

4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't have any good answers.

Nah man, this is a good answer. It is honest, not emotional, and hopefully you thought about it over a nice scotch.