Israel

[Aqua Buddha 14599]

23 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Ceasefires are not peace deal. They are pauses. Sometimes short (like these) sometimes long, like with North Korea. 

And usually they are asked for when both sides are at their end, one needs it to regroup, or there wait for external involvement. 

Hamas could surrender and there would be a permanent cease fire.

[Chopper 17241]

8 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

What would it be like if Mossad killed Hamas leaders around the Gulf States? 

What many people have already forgotten is there was a peace treaty on the table with active negotiations between SA and Israel as recently as early October. It's one reason Hamas decided to stir the hornet's nest when they did.

[InkaUtexas 26017]

6 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Hamas could surrender and there would be a permanent cease fire.

Yep. And with the same logic so could Israel. Neither will of course. 

 

[InkaUtexas 26017]

3 minutes ago, Chopper said:

What many people have already forgotten is there was a peace treaty on the table with active negotiations between SA and Israel as recently as early October. It's one reason Hamas Iran using their proxy Hamas decided to stir the hornet's nest when they did.

FIFY. 

And yeah, it was making traction. One of the deals that also got pulled was a desalinization project in Israel to provide water for Jordan. 

And it is interesting the only external group to much are the Houtis. They cannot really do much, Hezbollah could and has stayed quiet for the most part. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

55 minutes ago, Chopper said:

You seem to be under the impression that being a passive-aggressive pussy isn't "engaging."
 

Bro if you want Israel to slaughter every Palestinian, more power to you. I'm just not gonna engage with the argument.

[Chopper 17241]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Bro if you want Israel to slaughter every Palestinian, more power to you. I'm just not gonna engage with the argument.

The enemy has largely been softened and it's now largely door to door so you can chill. Not sure why you or anyone thinks it's Israel's fault for the way Hamas hides beneath and behind the women and children they claim to be representing.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

Just now, Chopper said:

The enemy has largely been softened and it's now largely door to door so you can chill. Not sure why you or anyone thinks it's Israel's fault for the way Hamas hides beneath and behind the women and children they claim to be representing.

Says who? And who said Hamas' tactics are Israel's fault besides the voices in your head?

[immamac 42877]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The issue here is that if we are drawing analogies, Hamas is more like the Taliban than they are Al-Qaeda. They are the government in Gaza. They control territory, resources, command security forces, receive funds from abroad, run social programs, and administer the local government. Like the Taliban, they offer safe haven to actual terrorist group, like IJP. But they are a government that has embraced terror as an offensive strategy and asymmetric insurgent tactics as a a defensive one. 
 

The differences between them and the Taliban are mainly:

1. They control an urban conglomeration and so instead of melting into hills and mountains they melt into hospitals and apartments to hide. 
 

2. Their adversary does not have the luxury of packing up their shit and flying across the ocean with a promise to come back with B-2s and drones if they get froggy. For Israel, they are the Taliban next door. 
 

Looking beyond patriotic statements for tv consumption, the IDF has articulated clear military and political goals: to degrade Hamas to the point that they are no longer capable of governing Gaza or organizing complex terrorist attacks across the border. Those are legitimate and defined aims even if (see point 1) you can’t accomplish them without a lot of destruction. 

You can say all the things you want. I’ve seen enough to know Israel will never treat the people that live in Palestine as equals or true citizens of the country. It’s patently fucking absurd to claim otherwise at this point. 
 

show me an Israel that wants to fight for equal representation and rights and quality of life for its citizens in Gaza and Palestine and I’ll be open to a conversation.

[Aqua Buddha 14599]

Gaza faces widespread hunger as food systems collapse, warns WFP

GAZA — With only ten percent of necessary food supplies entering Gaza since the beginning of the conflict, the Strip now faces a massive food gap and widespread hunger as nearly the entire population is in desperate need of food assistance, the UN World Food Programme (WFP) warned today.

“Supplies of food and water are practically non-existent in Gaza and only a fraction of what is needed is arriving through the borders. With winter fast approaching, unsafe and overcrowded shelters, and the lack of clean water, civilians are facing the immediate possibility of starvation," said WFP Executive Director Cindy McCain. "There is no way to meet current hunger needs with one operational border crossing. The only hope is opening another, safe passage for humanitarian access to bring life-saving food into Gaza."

https://www.wfp.org/news/gaza-faces-widespread-hunger-food-systems-collapse-warns-wfp

[InkaUtexas 26017]

4 minutes ago, immamac said:

You can say all the things you want. I’ve seen enough to know Israel will never treat the people that live in Palestine as equals or true citizens of the country. It’s patently fucking absurd to claim otherwise at this point. 
 

show me an Israel that wants to fight for equal representation and rights and quality of life for its citizens in Gaza and Palestine and I’ll be open to a conversation.

There is an active movement for just that. And concerning Arabs in Israel, there are quite a few. 

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab-Israeli population in 2023 was 2.1 million representing 21 percent of the country's population

Not saying it is a fair and equal society, but it is not South Africa during apartheid. What's going on in the West Bank is different for sure. And fuck the illegal settlements. 

 

[Chopper 17241]

11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Who says Hamas' tactics are Israel's fault

Say what now?

Just curious since you took such offense to my previous post where you opted to voice your opinion in such a passive agressive manner. If you could choose would you prefer to die ten thousand deaths by bullets/missiles, or be raped to death by a gang bang (just once)?

Edited November 18, 2023 by Chopper

[956 Worldwide 34737]

7 minutes ago, immamac said:

You can say all the things you want. I’ve seen enough to know Israel will never treat the people that live in Palestine as equals or true citizens of the country. It’s patently fucking absurd to claim otherwise at this point. 
 

show me an Israel that wants to fight for equal representation and rights and quality of life for its citizens in Gaza and Palestine and I’ll be open to a conversation.

None of them want to be in one country with the other nation, although you could probably muster the will for two with a delicate dance.  This is not at all surprising. 

[immamac 42877]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

None of them want to be in one country with the other nation, although you could probably muster the will for two with a delicate dance.  This is not at all surprising. 

You are literally making my point for me. 

[956 Worldwide 34737]

1 minute ago, immamac said:

You are literally making my point for me. 

I’m not sure what the point is.  If you’re looking for a two state solution, then destroying Hamas’ capability to govern and replacing them with something that might be open to negotiate is a political-military aim. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

31 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Say what now?

Just curious since you took such offense to my previous post where you opted to voice your opinion in such a passive agressive manner. If you could choose would you prefer to die ten thousand deaths by bullets/missiles, or be raped to death by a gang bang (just once)?

What in the literal fuck are you even talking about?

[statsman 5473]

2 hours ago, immamac said:

You can say all the things you want. I’ve seen enough to know Israel will never treat the people that live in Palestine as equals or true citizens of the country. It’s patently fucking absurd to claim otherwise at this point. 
 

show me an Israel that wants to fight for equal representation and rights and quality of life for its citizens in Gaza and Palestine and I’ll be open to a conversation.

Are Palestinians in Gaza and the WB citizens of Israel? I thought Israel did not recognize them as citizens, nor did the Gazans and WB residents consider themselves Israelis?

[Da Fino 2783]

4 hours ago, Bullneck said:

source briefed on the issue said the raid on Gaza's al-Shifa hospital by the Israeli Defense Forces angered Hamas and could complicate the talks in the short term.

Wasn’t that the place that just a week ago was hosting a rally with an oct 7 greatest hits projected on the side of the building?  Was that proven to be fake? I could have sworn that was on several newscasts and now I can’t find it. 

[AnTiM 1669]

10 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Ceasefires are not peace deal. They are pauses. Sometimes short (like these) sometimes long, like with North Korea. 

And usually they are asked for when both sides are at their end, one needs it to regroup, or there wait for external involvement. 

Seventy years ago a cease fire stopped the war in Korea.  Now we are trying to deal with a nutcase dictator armed with nukes and controlling a starving population while South Korea appears to be a little more habitable.  Let's see if a cease fire makes things better in Israel seventy years from now.

[linux 1660]

9 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

None of them want to be in one country with the other nation, although you could probably muster the will for two with a delicate dance.  This is not at all surprising. 

This has been the Israeli objectives since I have been tracking Likud

#1 One state solution, Palestinians have 0 rights,  "peace" (This was the pre Oct 7 reality and why Bibi wanted to prop up Hamas recently). This is the apartheid solution

#2 One state solution, Palestinians have 0 rights, war (our current reality) apartheid and bombings of civilians whether accidental or not.

#3 Two state solution, Palestinians rights are irrelevant since they have their state, peace.

 

.....

 

#45464 One state solution, Palestinians have equal rights, real peace.

 

The fact that what seems like the ideal solution is the absolute worst possible outcome for Israel is why I think they are the bad guys, Hamas is too but they don't have the power of Israel.

The last options seems to be what the next generation of palestinians want, in no small part because that is the last thing Israel wants.

[RomaVicta 29949]

13 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One of the things that never gets mentioned is that Hamas is still firing rockets at Tel Aviv, that Hamas has not asked for a ceasefire, and that Hamas has not proposed anything they’d be willing to do in exchange for one. One thing that’s remarkable is that they don’t want to exchange hostages for peace, they want to exchange hostages for prisoners. They care far more about fellow thugs than their own people. 
 

That’s why is so fucking disingenuous of Palestine supporters to call for a “ceasefire,” a ceasefire applies to both sides. And the Palestinian side doesn’t want one.  And even more infuriating when they get mad at U.S. calls for a humanitarian pause, because that’s exactly what it is when Israel takes a break— one side takes a pause for humanitarian purposes and the other side keeps shooting. 
 

You can’t have a ceasefire on one side.  But most Palestinian supporters are comically unable to say what they mean and they known “ceasefire” sounds nice while few Western publics would be on board with a “unilateral Israeli retreat.” 

In the first paragraph, you accurately describe the warlike actions as perpetrated by Hamas. I don't know how you can say their ongoing missile attacks are not ever mentioned. One, I'm only following this story with half-interest, and I'm fully aware of the attacks. Two, the attacks are generally recognized by anyone calling for a cease-fire because, as you say, cease-fire suggests two sides. Palestinian sympathizers clearly know attacks are mutual when they call for ceasefire.

In the second paragraph, you slyly drift from referring to Hamas as the warring party to the "Palestinian side." You're very smart and well-informed, so I don't see this as sloppy referencing. This disposition towards including all Palestinians in the actions of Hamas is repeated by the reference to "the other side keeps shooting." You've transferred the identity of Hamas to all Palestinians.

This almost deft transfer of responsibility allows a person to morally support civilian slaughter in Gaza. The "Palestinian side" is Hamas. Hamas committed crimes against humanity. Therefore, revenge for crimes against humanity may justifiably be directed against the "Palestinian side" evidently in the form of war crimes. QED

I'm not following this story closely anymore because it's a shitfire of bloody-minded slaughter. I did see a headline in the NYT stating that the Israelis are having trouble finding evidence that Hamas was hiding under hospitals. They justified their campaign against civilian targets based on the claim that Hamas must be hiding there. 

I'm surprised Hamas wouldn't be using the hospitals as they clearly have no regard for innocent lives that can be spent to serve their bloody cause. I wonder at the credibility of other claims made by Israel to justify the criminal part of their use of high explosives in civilian-dominated areas. 

I don't see much difference between blowing up a family in their home or walking through the house shooting everyone. We Americans like to tell ourselves it's different because that's how we justify the rather sterile sounding "collateral damage." The dead make no such distinctions. Their surviving kin and friends make no such distinctions.

I'm glad Biden is arguing for restraint, but it's not enough for me. I'd put the whole relationship between our countries on the line because we won't support unbridled attacks on Gaza. I've written and still believe that we should provide only humanitarian aid.

I don't trust "special relationships." They often make one side a chump.

[Bullneck 19185]

13 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Bottom line: Hamas can save thousands of Gazan lives right now. All they have to do is release hostages. Hostages. Not combatants. Hostages.
Yet, they won’t.
And Israel is the only party blamed for their not being a ceasefire in place.
Again, not excusing Israel’s overkill, but for fuck’s sake, when will Palestinians and their supporters put ANY fucking responsibility on Hamas, which has the ability to put a stop to the fighting as we speak?

Hamas has said one or two are dead, and it's the fault of the Israeli bombing.  I would think there are really more than dead than that.  

[RomaVicta 29949]

12 hours ago, Chopper said:

The enemy has largely been softened

 

Yep. They're sofenting the fuck out of the "enemy."

 

12 hours ago, Chopper said:

it's now largely door to door so you can chill.

Chill your own fucking self, Mr. Armchair War Expert. You seem to imagine that blasting civilian targets and killing women and children and babies and men who are not combatants in the thousands is something sterile like "softening" a target. You further seem to see the door to door campaign as something like a Jehovah Witness invasion.

I think an hour in Gaza would rock your complacency.

Maybe you're taking the posture of toughness or getting vicarious thrills watching a conventional army smash "the bad guys," but you need to get away from the TV more.

[RomaVicta 29949]

12 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m not sure what the point is.  If you’re looking for a two state solution, then destroying Hamas’ capability to govern and replacing them with something that might be open to negotiate is a political-military aim. 

Attacking Hamas as a military enemy is certainly justifiable.

Trying to install a government is the kind of shit we do that just about always ends badly for the people. See America,Latin. Also see Iran, the Shah. 

I'll say again that I respect your intellect and knowledge. I think you're way off on this subject.

[immamac 42877]

34 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

In the first paragraph, you accurately describe the warlike actions as perpetrated by Hamas. I don't know how you can say their ongoing missile attacks are not ever mentioned. One, I'm only following this story with half-interest, and I'm fully aware of the attacks. Two, the attacks are generally recognized by anyone calling for a cease-fire because, as you say, cease-fire suggests two sides. Palestinian sympathizers clearly know attacks are mutual when they call for ceasefire.

In the second paragraph, you slyly drift from referring to Hamas as the warring party to the "Palestinian side." You're very smart and well-informed, so I don't see this as sloppy referencing. This disposition towards including all Palestinians in the actions of Hamas is repeated by the reference to "the other side keeps shooting." You've transferred the identity of Hamas to all Palestinians.

This almost deft transfer of responsibility allows a person to morally support civilian slaughter in Gaza. The "Palestinian side" is Hamas. Hamas committed crimes against humanity. Therefore, revenge for crimes against humanity may justifiably be directed against the "Palestinian side" evidently in the form of war crimes. QED

I'm not following this story closely anymore because it's a shitfire of bloody-minded slaughter. I did see a headline in the NYT stating that the Israelis are having trouble finding evidence that Hamas was hiding under hospitals. They justified their campaign against civilian targets based on the claim that Hamas must be hiding there. 

I'm surprised Hamas wouldn't be using the hospitals as they clearly have no regard for innocent lives that can be spent to serve their bloody cause. I wonder at the credibility of other claims made by Israel to justify the criminal part of their use of high explosives in civilian-dominated areas. 

I don't see much difference between blowing up a family in their home or walking through the house shooting everyone. We Americans like to tell ourselves it's different because that's how we justify the rather sterile sounding "collateral damage." The dead make no such distinctions. Their surviving kin and friends make no such distinctions.

I'm glad Biden is arguing for restraint, but it's not enough for me. I'd put the whole relationship between our countries on the line because we won't support unbridled attacks on Gaza. I've written and still believe that we should provide only humanitarian aid.

I don't trust "special relationships." They often make one side a chump.

You do realize we (royal, USA) don't give a fuck about Israel or Palestine here right? We are trying to cool the jets from WWIII powder keg going off. Israel isn't some fucking awesome alliance it's a circumstance of necessity because there's a lot of countries in that region that are anti America and there was one government receptive to being not anti America. 

Israel also isn't broke and the war machine needs blood to run. We have the best war machine and it particularly loves blood of people who aren't ours. 

Also a great post. 10/10 would read again. 

[RomaVicta 29949]

7 minutes ago, immamac said:

You do realize we (royal, USA) don't give a fuck about Israel or Palestine here right? We are trying to cool the jets from WWIII powder keg going off. Israel isn't some fucking awesome alliance it's a circumstance of necessity because there's a lot of countries in that region that are anti America and there was one government receptive to being not anti America. 

Israel also isn't broke and the war machine needs blood to run. We have the best war machine and it particularly loves blood of people who aren't ours. 

I didn't say anything about "giving a fuck." I only point out the notion of "special relationship" that is commonly used to describe our chummy diplomacy towards the. Special relationship suggests an emotional link and history that sway diplomatic decisions. I don't think you would deny this representation of the relationship the US has with England and Israel. I'll make clear that I don't give a fuck about any of these countries myself. I increasingly dislike my country, but the interests of the US are foremost in my mind regarding these considerations.

Saying we need Israel because of the anti-American sentiment in the area is perhaps misplacing the cart and horse.

Anti-American sentiment arose because of our support, rightly or wrongly, for Israel when they were beset by the countries all around them objecting to their injection into the area. I can't argue with the American sentiment of not wanting to see Israel and the Israelis destroyed for being in a place that a bunch of bumblers from other countries opened up for them.

I'd say installing the Shah and his bloody and cruel Savak may have been the start of real antipathy towards the US. The Iranians seizure of the US embassy and spilling hatred of what we'd done to their country may have been a watershed moment.

From that point on, we have a a military presence in the area that rankles the shit out of everybody. Carrier groups in the Persian Gulf leading to the placing of an army in Saudi to drive back Saddam from Kuwait (I wondered about the country of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson spilling blood to re-instate a despot.)

That military presence and our increasing use of it has fueled anti-American feeling in the area. We've fought in Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, and Syria with ground forces. Oh, and Afghanistan where the initial invastion I supported but not the ongoing mission once the special forces were pulled away for W's fiasco in Iraq.

We've bombed a lot of people including having a force in Syria. I'm sure the Kurds love us for our routine betrayals of them.

Our policies are generally stupid and brutal with non-European countries. Sometimes the fear of that stupidity and brutality has likely worked in our favor. The application of same has rarely worked in our long term interests.

Another long fucking post from me. Thanks for the response to my post. If if nobody reads the long posts, it does me some good to write them out for further examination.

[Neonmoon 38129]

15 hours ago, immamac said:

The US, much like Russia (also not clean, but not really "monsters" here outside of weird shit like bucha) had actual military objectives and a tangible end/measure of success/failure. 

What does success look like for Israel? What does it look like for Hamas? 

^^This is the problem, there is no such thing as success. There is no end to the operation, there is no meaningful change to come. 

This is incorrect.

Israel stated success is eliminating Hamas. As far as afterwards, I would assume a Gaza with the NA in control just like Palestine. There will definitely be a large rebuild. There was a large rebuild in German and Japan as well. 

Success for Hamas is the elimination of Israel. They’ve been pretty open about it. 
 

[Anastasis 23480]

46 minutes ago, immamac said:

We have the best war machine and it particularly loves blood of people who aren't ours. 

Well that’s a fucking bullseye. 
 

if we were serious about pressing a pause or a ceasefire maybe we would slow the roll on the nearly daily  arms deliveries and force the issue. But we aren’t. Decency and we the people or some shit. 

[immamac 42877]

8 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

This is incorrect.

Israel stated success is eliminating Hamas. As far as afterwards, I would assume a Gaza with the NA in control just like Palestine. There will definitely be a large rebuild. There was a large rebuild in German and Japan as well. 

Success for Hamas is the elimination of Israel. They’ve been pretty open about it. 
 

That's an impossible criteria. It's not a tangible or measurable thing. 

27 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I didn't say anything about "giving a fuck." I only point out the notion of "special relationship" that is commonly used to describe our chummy diplomacy towards the. Special relationship suggests an emotional link and history that sway diplomatic decisions. I don't think you would deny this representation of the relationship the US has with England and Israel. I'll make clear that I don't give a fuck about any of these countries myself. I increasingly dislike my country, but the interests of the US are foremost in my mind regarding these considerations.

Saying we need Israel because of the anti-American sentiment in the area is perhaps misplacing the cart and horse.

Anti-American sentiment arose because of our support, rightly or wrongly, for Israel when they were beset by the countries all around them objecting to their injection into the area. I can't argue with the American sentiment of not wanting to see Israel and the Israelis destroyed for being in a place that a bunch of bumblers from other countries opened up for them.

I'd say installing the Shah and his bloody and cruel Savak may have been the start of real antipathy towards the US. The Iranians seizure of the US embassy and spilling hatred of what we'd done to their country may have been a watershed moment.

From that point on, we have a a military presence in the area that rankles the shit out of everybody. Carrier groups in the Persian Gulf leading to the placing of an army in Saudi to drive back Saddam from Kuwait (I wondered about the country of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson spilling blood to re-instate a despot.)

That military presence and our increasing use of it has fueled anti-American feeling in the area. We've fought in Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, and Syria with ground forces. Oh, and Afghanistan where the initial invastion I supported but not the ongoing mission once the special forces were pulled away for W's fiasco in Iraq.

We've bombed a lot of people including having a force in Syria. I'm sure the Kurds love us for our routine betrayals of them.

Our policies are generally stupid and brutal with non-European countries. Sometimes the fear of that stupidity and brutality has likely worked in our favor. The application of same has rarely worked in our long term interests.

Another long fucking post from me. Thanks for the response to my post. If if nobody reads the long posts, it does me some good to write them out for further examination.

I think we are saying the same thing. The problem is that our policy of brutality doesn't care about anything but our primary objective which you stated. 

Americans in general have a hard time reconciling how different our military and economic complex is outside vs inside. Everyone is used to having their fee fees placated and they don't realize the clean kicks they have or the sweet phone they use is used by juicing laborers to death or in brutal conditions somewhere else. 

[RomaVicta 29949]

6 minutes ago, immamac said:

That's an impossible criteria. It's not a tangible or measurable thing. 

I think we are saying the same thing. The problem is that our policy of brutality doesn't care about anything but our primary objective which you stated. 

Americans in general have a hard time reconciling how different our military and economic complex is outside vs inside. Everyone is used to having their fee fees placated and they don't realize the clean kicks they have or the sweet phone they use is used by juicing laborers to death or in brutal conditions somewhere else. 

[Hagbard Celine 10897]

15 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Hamas could surrender and there would be a permanent cease fire.

Israel could declare Oslo "is", build the corridors from Gaza to the West Bank, pull back to the '67 lines, and literally "create" the Palestinian state, the infrastructure, the economy, and govern it, police it, and enforce peace.   It will cost a couple thousand Israeli lives over the course of 10 years and it will end the insanity.

12 hours ago, statsman said:

Are Palestinians in Gaza and the WB citizens of Israel? I thought Israel did not recognize them as citizens, nor did the Gazans and WB residents consider themselves Israelis?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_passport

[Chopper 17241]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Chill your own fucking self, Mr. Armchair War Expert.

 

I have no idea what rodent crawled up your ass just before you went on a lecture trying to tell me how you're the actual expert. You should go back to yellow highlighting aggy posts, you have the yellow highlighter thing nailed.

[956 Worldwide 34737]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

That's an impossible criteria. It's not a tangible or measurable thing. 

I think we are saying the same thing. The problem is that our policy of brutality doesn't care about anything but our primary objective which you stated. 

Americans in general have a hard time reconciling how different our military and economic complex is outside vs inside. Everyone is used to having their fee fees placated and they don't realize the clean kicks they have or the sweet phone they use is used by juicing laborers to death or in brutal conditions somewhere else. 

You keep repeating this line but it isn’t true.  Hamas is the governing party and apparatus in Gaza. It is possible to destroy them just like it was possible to destroy the Nazi party and make it impossible for them to return to power, and it was possible to destroy Iraq’s Baathist party and  governing apparatus.  There’s a measurable end result and a level of violence that can be applied to these problems.

[RomaVicta 29949]

20 minutes ago, Chopper said:

I have no idea what rodent crawled up your ass just before you went on a lecture trying to tell me how you're the actual expert. You should go back to yellow highlighting aggy posts, you have the yellow highlighter thing nailed.

I see you took the criticism hard. I think my closing paragraph likely was more pointed than it needed to be. I stand by the sentiment, though.

I don't think I do try to tell you I'm the actual expert. I'm not one. Seems nobody is. I just laid it out as I see it. Your language did soft peddle reality.

Glad you enjoy my Aggie posts. 

Written without rancor.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I'm glad Biden is arguing for restraint, but it's not enough for me. I'd put the whole relationship between our countries on the line because we won't support unbridled attacks on Gaza. I've written and still believe that we should provide only humanitarian aid.

Sadly, it'll never happen for a number of reasons.  Unconditional support of Israel might as well be a constitutional amendment at this point.

[Chopper 17241]

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I see you took the criticism hard. I think my closing paragraph likely was more pointed than it needed to be. I stand by the sentiment, though.

I don't think I do try to tell you I'm the actual expert. I'm not one. Seems nobody is. I just laid it out as I see it. Your language did soft peddle reality.

Glad you enjoy my Aggie posts. 

Written without rancor.

I am no armchair expert. Not self-proclaimed, not desired, nor otherwise. I stated what I believe to be the case. The missiles (from Israel) were to dislodge an enemy/attacker from their tunnels and basements where they hid below the people whom they claim to represent. Civilians were given 3 weeks-ish to evacuate beforehand. After enacting an extremely brutal attack of beheading infants, gang raping women to death, and slaughtering concert-goers at a kibbutz, the attackers thought they could just lay low back home. They perhaps thought their actions would gain them sympathy with their fellow Arabs. Even Hezbollah with its thousands of missiles pointed at Israel said "nope, you assholes went too far." Surely you can see the idiocy and irrationality of carrying out an act of war and then hiding en masse among the civilian population you claim to be representing? Apparently many US citizens can't, so that's where we are...the extreme left in the US is unable to be as rational as Hezbollah.

[Chopper 17241]

7 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Sadly, it'll never happen for a number of reasons.  Unconditional support of Israel might as well be a constitutional amendment at this point.

Yeah our motto should be "fuck democracy." Oh well maybe we're headed that way anyway so your side could eventually win in as little as 2 years. Congrats.

[956 Worldwide 34737]

This op-ed in The Guardian is very clear eyed and scathing about Netanyahu. And I agree.  I will also say that there appears to be serious momentum and pressure on Netanyahu internally and hopefully this will spell the end of his tenure, one way or another. 
 

It is equally clear-eyed about Hamas and the need to eliminate them as a capable governing authority.  It really is adequate to compare them and their ideology to the Nazis.  Adolf Hitler was quite clear in his ideology that if Germans could not win the war, they did not deserve to exist. They were willing to sacrifice every single German to accomplish their aims and did end up with their country ruined. People need to be clear-eyed about what it means to live next door to a political entity with similar fanatical aim and outlook. 
 

Quote

The ideology of violent jihadism plays a part here, and that too is often overlooked. There are plenty in the west eager to see Hamas simply as a resistance movement, in the noble tradition of national liberation struggles. But this fails to reckon with Hamas’s doctrinal commitment. Violent jihadism is not a rhetorical pose: it is Hamas’s animating creed. It truly believes that when one of its own people dies – even a child killed in an airstrike – they go straight to paradise as a martyr.

Against an enemy that thinks this way, the usual pressures don’t work. If you doubt the devotion, force yourself to listen to the phone call made by one of the Hamas murderers of 7 October to his parents back in Gaza. Hear his pride, his ecstatic joy, as he tells them he has “killed Jews” with his own hands, including a husband and wife and eight others. “Dad, 10 with my own hands!”

Quote

It is not easy to imagine an accommodation with such an adversary, certainly not one of the kind that Benjamin Netanyahu so disastrously maintained for the last 15 years. The Israeli prime minister pursued a policy of containment, described aptly by the historian Yuval Noah Harari as “violent coexistence”, in which Israel believed it could just about live with Hamas in Gaza, with periodic military confrontations. That delusion was shattered on the black sabbath of last month.

Which is why the US, the European Union and other allies have reached the same conclusion as the Israeli government: that Hamas cannot merely be temporarily deterred, that this cannot simply be one more round that follows the all-too-familiar pattern in which a ceasefire is followed by a pause, allowing Hamas to regroup and rearm, ready for the next escalation. Instead, as the EU foreign policy chief, Josep Borrell, told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Thursday, Hamas “must be defeated”.

Note, though, that it’s not just western governments that think this way. The dog that didn’t bark – or has not yet barked – in this story is the governments of those Arab states with ties to Israel, including the Gulf state signatories to the Abraham accords, along with Saudi Arabia, whose imminent “normalisation” deal with Israel Hamas was seemingly determined to derail. Despite all the bloodshed in Gaza, those states have not broken off relations with Israel – suggesting they are not that unhappy at the prospect of Hamas being functionally removed from the equation.

 

[Hagbard Celine 10897]

3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Spoiler

I didn't say anything about "giving a fuck." I only point out the notion of "special relationship" that is commonly used to describe our chummy diplomacy towards the. Special relationship suggests an emotional link and history that sway diplomatic decisions. I don't think you would deny this representation of the relationship the US has with England and Israel. I'll make clear that I don't give a fuck about any of these countries myself. I increasingly dislike my country, but the interests of the US are foremost in my mind regarding these considerations.

Saying we need Israel because of the anti-American sentiment in the area is perhaps misplacing the cart and horse.

Anti-American sentiment arose because of our support, rightly or wrongly, for Israel when they were beset by the countries all around them objecting to their injection into the area. I can't argue with the American sentiment of not wanting to see Israel and the Israelis destroyed for being in a place that a bunch of bumblers from other countries opened up for them.

I'd say installing the Shah and his bloody and cruel Savak may have been the start of real antipathy towards the US. The Iranians seizure of the US embassy and spilling hatred of what we'd done to their country may have been a watershed moment.

From that point on, we have a a military presence in the area that rankles the shit out of everybody. Carrier groups in the Persian Gulf leading to the placing of an army in Saudi to drive back Saddam from Kuwait (I wondered about the country of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson spilling blood to re-instate a despot.)

That military presence and our increasing use of it has fueled anti-American feeling in the area. We've fought in Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, and Syria with ground forces. Oh, and Afghanistan where the initial invastion I supported but not the ongoing mission once the special forces were pulled away for W's fiasco in Iraq.

We've bombed a lot of people including having a force in Syria. I'm sure the Kurds love us for our routine betrayals of them.

Our policies are generally stupid and brutal with non-European countries. Sometimes the fear of that stupidity and brutality has likely worked in our favor. The application of same has rarely worked in our long term interests.

Another long fucking post from me. Thanks for the response to my post. If if nobody reads the long posts, it does me some good to write them out for further examination.

 

almost everything everyone writes in here is true

what is missed by almost everyone is the root cause of the problem: the british and french during and after ww1: the balfour declaration, the skykes-picot letters, and the betrayal of Faisal (see: Lawrence of Arabia) at the treaty of versailles (1919)

lines were drawn on maps and regimes were installed over the next 20 years

on 3 March 1938, Standard Oil drilled their 7th wildcat well 10 miles south of Dharan, and Aramco was born

the Holocaust happens

May 1948: Israel declares itself, British Mandate of Palestine ends, Standard Oil buys 40% of Aramco, US is first to recognize Israel

1950: Saudis agree to 50% profit split forever between Standard Oil and Aramco (1973: Standard Oil changes it's name to Exxon, 1999: ExxonMobil merger)

RoyalDutch Shell and British Petroleum honorable mention for the next 50 years

1953: Mossadegh nationalizes Iranian petro which fucks the Brits hard and dry; 1st coup to overthrow him is botched; Shah parties in Italy; 2nd coup works, Shah plays everyone against everyone for 25 years, builds the 5th largest military in the world, but we end up holding the bag

mix in Cold War domino shit

1958: Hashemite dynasty (Faisal II) in Iraq assassinated in a coup we actually didn't have anything to do with

1962: first US aid to Israel (military loans)

++++

the above is the ingredients

++++

pre-heat with 1967 war, lots of hijackings before and after Munich, stir in Munich reprisals

1971: nixon shock dropping Bretton Woods international Gold Standard for exchange agreed in 1944

1973: March the G-10 and the US dollar are tied to float against each other, Bretton Woods is done

1973: October Yom Kippur war; direct from the wiki: In response to U.S. support of Israel, the Arab members of OPEC, led by King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, decided to reduce oil production by 5% per month on 17 October.  On 19 October, Nixon authorized a major allocation of arms supplies and $2.2 billion in appropriations for Israel.  In response, Saudi Arabia declared an embargo against the United States, later joined by other oil exporters and extended against the Netherlands and other countries, causing the 1973 energy crisis.

++++

the frosting:

Since 1973, the US has given Israel $120 billion in assistance

++++

the above is neither for or against israel or for or against the arab world

++++

the above is an indictment of the west and the soviets/russians - we made this mess

Edited November 18, 2023 by Hagbard Celine
derp

[Hagbard Celine 10897]

oh yeah, i skipped over egypt, jordan, lebanon and syria

[956 Worldwide 34737]

18 hours ago, immamac said:

The US, much like Russia (also not clean, but not really "monsters" here outside of weird shit like bucha) had actual military objectives and a tangible end/measure of success/failure. 

What does success look like for Israel? What does it look like for Hamas? 

^^This is the problem, there is no such thing as success. There is no end to the operation, there is no meaningful change to come. 

You’ve got some really fucking bad takes here and you’re clearly not paying attention.  Russia has done all the things that Israel is accused of doing, but on purpose.

Besides Bucha let’s go down the list:

- Russia destroyed Kharkiv. Between 22 February and 8 March over 1.2 million people were gone from a city that had 2 million people before the war. 
 

- Russia leveled Mariupol, a city of 400,000, and laid siege to it for months. 90 percent of building confirmed destroyed.  Official Ukrainian sources estimate 25,000 dead civilians and recent AP reporting estimates more than that. Russia removed most of the population and replaced it with Russians. Somewhere in there, they bombed a maternity ward on purpose (confirmed and then cried “crisis actors.” And a theatre with the word “children” written on top of it. 
 

- Russia has forcibly removed thousands of Ukrainian children and sent them to reduction and filtration facilities in Russia.  Russia has set up filtration camps for Ukrainian civilians where they hunt sympathizers and torture. 
 

That’s just the beginning. Fuck off with your false equivalency, just because you don’t pay attention doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Russias invasion has been almost nothing BUT clear war crimes from day one.  

[956 Worldwide 34737]

This is drone footage of Mariupol after the siege. Fuck right off with “outside of Bucha they aren’t that bad.”

 
And— it cannot be said enough— no fucking Russians were killed by Ukraine.  They just decided to take it. 

[RomaVicta 29949]

50 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Apparently many US citizens can't, so that's where we are...the extreme left in the US is unable to be as rational as Hezbollah.

This says something about where we are.

[immamac 42877]

I’m just gonna step out on this one because you seem pretty emotionally invested in here and didn’t really read my reply right. It’s not that I think it’s not worth the discussion but I think it needs cool off before you will understand the point I was making. I respect the shit out of your takes and I’m not here trying to antagonize you or falsely equivocate things. We aren’t on opposite sides of these arguments as much as you may think. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Glad you enjoy my Aggie posts.

Haven’t read one word of your arguments in this thread, but here to confirm that your aggy posts are definitely on point.  To the extent that I read txaggy and laugh, then a day later I see that you’ve highlighted and posted the exact same excerpts here.   Sorry to interrupt discussion of something with actual importance. Carry on. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

4 hours ago, immamac said:

That's an impossible criteria. It's not a tangible or measurable thing. 

Why is eliminating Hamas an impossible criteria? Seems pretty easy to measure. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

2 hours ago, Chopper said:

Yeah our motto should be "fuck democracy." Oh well maybe we're headed that way anyway so your side could eventually win in as little as 2 years. Congrats.

Again, I have no clue what you're ranting about. I'm not sure how anything in my post said "fuck democracy".

[Brian Fantana 6689]

Just now, Neonmoon said:

Why is eliminating Hamas an impossible criteria? Seems pretty easy to measure. 

Killing a bunch of them without addressing the environment and conditions that lead to a far-right fundamentalist group like Hamas gaining power is just kicking the can down the road. They'll either return or something worse will replace them.

[Neonmoon 38129]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Killing a bunch of them without addressing the environment and conditions that lead to a far-right fundamentalist group like Hamas gaining power is just kicking the can down the road. They'll either return or something worse will replace them.

That’s possible. Or Israel could help install PNA in Gaza and help fund the rebuild. Remove the blockade by Egypt and Israel. And remove all settlements in West Bank. The UN could even be involved to help. 

But if the 6 time defeated Palestinians want to continue to kill people instead of focusing on building a peaceful state and partnership with their neighbors then they will continue to suffer the consequences. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

Ah yes it's all the Palestinians, got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

[MissingInAction 25130]

These are plastered on every concrete column at Mueller