Israel

[Neonmoon 38,129]

24 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Ah yes it's all the Palestinians, got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

How else shall I describe the people? 

[Brian Fantana 6,680]

23 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

How else shall I describe the people? 

I'm just amused at the contrast in the two statements you made in that post. You basically went from "Hmm maybe Israel should end the apartheid" to "well actually all Palestinians are Hamas".

[Neonmoon 38,129]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm just amused at the contrast in the two statements you made in that post. You basically went from "Hmm maybe Israel should end the apartheid" to "well actually all Palestinians are Hamas".

I said neither of those statements, so that’s kind of weird 

[Brian Fantana 6,680]

13 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I said neither of those statements, so that’s kind of weird 

Ending the apartheid would most likely involve all those things you said. Sure seems like you're conflating all Palestinians with Hamas when you say "well, if the Palestinians are going to keep killing people, they're going to reap the consequences". You could just say Hamas, but you're purposely saying Palestinians which is a conflation, intentional or not.

[Neonmoon 38,129]

Here is the disconnect 

I believe Israel and Egypt should stop the blockade. I believe Israel should remove all settlements from West Bank. I believe all this should be done AFTER Hamas has been removed. I believe there should be a 2 state solution, but that requires Palestinians actually wanting their own country. 

In no way do I believe Israel is responsible for the creation of or subsequent killings by Hamas, the PLO, or Hizballah. Any attempt to suggest that is laughable and pure gaslighting. Palestinians are not victims. They have continually and repeatedly refused offers of peace and chose violence. Their land was not stolen. They started a war and lost it. Like hundreds of other countries throughout history. It happens. Palestinian did not elect the Green  Party in Gaza, they elected Hamas. Is it the current Gazans fault? No, but it was their parents fault. It wasn’t my fault my ancestors were most likely slaves owning pieces of shit, but I understand why affirmative action is necessary. 

No, of course Hamas and previous violent iterations like the PLO do not represent all Palestinians. Just like the Nazis did not represent all Germans. However, they are in control. We can’t ignore the glaring truth that both Nazis and Hamas were created from and supported by their respective peoples at some point. 

[Brian Fantana 6,680]

16 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Here is the disconnect 

I believe Israel and Egypt should stop the blockade. I believe Israel should remove all settlements from West Bank. I believe all this should be done AFTER Hamas has been removed. I believe there should be a 2 state solution, but that requires Palestinians actually wanting their own country. 

In no way do I believe Israel is responsible for the creation of or subsequent killings by Hamas, the PLO, or Hizballah. Any attempt to suggest that is laughable and pure gaslighting. Palestinians are not victims. They have continually and repeatedly refused offers of peace and chose violence. Their land was not stolen. They started a war and lost it. Like hundreds of other countries throughout history. It happens. Palestinian did not elect the Green  Party in Gaza, they elected Hamas. Is it the current Gazans fault? No, but it was their parents fault. It wasn’t my fault my ancestors were most likely slaves owning pieces of shit, but I understand why affirmative action is necessary. 

No, of course Hamas and previous violent iterations like the PLO do not represent all Palestinians. Just like the Nazis did not represent all Germans. However, they are in control. We can’t ignore the glaring truth that both Nazis and Hamas were created from and supported by their respective peoples at some point. 

I understand your position, thank you for clarifying.

[Brian Fantana 6,680]

39 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Here is the disconnect 

I believe Israel and Egypt should stop the blockade. I believe Israel should remove all settlements from West Bank. I believe all this should be done AFTER Hamas has been removed. I believe there should be a 2 state solution, but that requires Palestinians actually wanting their own country. 

In no way do I believe Israel is responsible for the creation of or subsequent killings by Hamas, the PLO, or Hizballah. Any attempt to suggest that is laughable and pure gaslighting. Palestinians are not victims. They have continually and repeatedly refused offers of peace and chose violence. Their land was not stolen. They started a war and lost it. Like hundreds of other countries throughout history. It happens. Palestinian did not elect the Green  Party in Gaza, they elected Hamas. Is it the current Gazans fault? No, but it was their parents fault. It wasn’t my fault my ancestors were most likely slaves owning pieces of shit, but I understand why affirmative action is necessary. 

No, of course Hamas and previous violent iterations like the PLO do not represent all Palestinians. Just like the Nazis did not represent all Germans. However, they are in control. We can’t ignore the glaring truth that both Nazis and Hamas were created from and supported by their respective peoples at some point. 

There are some things we disagree about in there. Their land WAS stolen, and the notion that "they started a war", while technically true if you are referring to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, is embracing a version of history that purposefully ignores the realities of what had been occurring there for decades prior. The notion that "they elected Hamas", while technically true, again ignores the circumstances and realities that lead to a far-right fundamentalist group gaining power and enough support, and is often used to push for genocide as if they were elected by overwhelming majority or something instead of a relatively thin margin by plurality.

If you want to take an absolutist position, then more power to you I guess, but you purposefully ignore a lot of historical context and detail that I suspect you would never ignore when you turn your lens toward Israel.

[Willfully Horn 8,001]

9 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There are some things we disagree about in there. Their land WAS stolen, and the notion that "they started a war", while technically true if you are referring to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, is embracing a version of history that purposefully ignores the realities of what had been occurring there for decades prior. The notion that "they elected Hamas", while technically true, again ignores the circumstances and realities that lead to a far-right fundamentalist group gaining power and enough support, and is often used to push for genocide as if they were elected by overwhelming majority or something instead of a relatively thin margin by plurality.

If you want to take an absolutist position, then more power to you I guess, but you purposefully ignore a lot of historical context and detail that I suspect you would never ignore when you turn your lens toward Israel.

Stolen land was stolen, was stolen, was stolen, was stolen….. 

I don’t get how anyone can draw a timeline and declare either side indigenous. Maybe I missed that explanation.

[956 Worldwide 34,701]

25 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There are some things we disagree about in there. Their land WAS stolen, and the notion that "they started a war", while technically true if you are referring to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, is embracing a version of history that purposefully ignores the realities of what had been occurring there for decades prior. The notion that "they elected Hamas", while technically true, again ignores the circumstances and realities that lead to a far-right fundamentalist group gaining power and enough support, and is often used to push for genocide as if they were elected by overwhelming majority or something instead of a relatively thin margin by plurality.

If you want to take an absolutist position, then more power to you I guess, but you purposefully ignore a lot of historical context and detail that I suspect you would never ignore when you turn your lens toward Israel.

There’s always “context” and “circumstances” that lead to a far-right group gaining power. Imagine how you’d feel if you lost 19 percent of your country and had to tolerate enemy occupation in your industrial heartland!  A stab in the back! 
 

As far as election margins go, Netanyahu received a far lower percentage than Hamas did and no one is racing to contextualize that or pretend like Israelis don’t bear some responsibility for who governs them. 
 

 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

31 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There are some things we disagree about in there. Their land WAS stolen, and the notion that "they started a war", while technically true if you are referring to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, is embracing a version of history that purposefully ignores the realities of what had been occurring there for decades prior. The notion that "they elected Hamas", while technically true, again ignores the circumstances and realities that lead to a far-right fundamentalist group gaining power and enough support, and is often used to push for genocide as if they were elected by overwhelming majority or something instead of a relatively thin margin by plurality.

If you want to take an absolutist position, then more power to you I guess, but you purposefully ignore a lot of historical context and detail that I suspect you would never ignore when you turn your lens toward Israel.

I am not ignoring any context or detail. I just don’t see Palestine as the victim they keep trying to convince everyone they are. Please enlighten me what I am missing with a lens toward Israel?
 

[Brian Fantana 6,680]

4 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I am not ignoring any context or detail. I just don’t see Palestine as the victim they keep trying to convince everyone they are. Please enlighten me what I am missing with a lens toward Israel?
 

I meant hypothetically, if the shoe was on the other foot.

[Brian Fantana 6,680]

10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s always “context” and “circumstances” that lead to a far-right group gaining power. Imagine how you’d feel if you lost 19 percent of your country and had to tolerate enemy occupation in your industrial heartland!  A stab in the back! 
 

As far as election margins go, Netanyahu received a far lower percentage than Hamas did and no one is racing to contextualize that or pretend like Israelis don’t bear some responsibility for who governs them. 
 

 

I don't actually hold Israelis responsible at all for Netanyahu or his government's actions, FWIW.

[956 Worldwide 34,701]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't actually hold Israelis responsible at all for Netanyahu or his government's actions, FWIW.

I don’t get this take at all. That’s what democracy is. I don’t hold Texans or lots of Americans individually accountable for every single act of Trump or Abbott or other creatures. But I absolutely think citizens need to be accountable and not pretend like who they vote for or what sort of rhetoric they allow to flourish is unrelated to their behavior. It’s infantilizing not to. 

[Brian Fantana 6,680]

12 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I don’t get this take at all. That’s what democracy is. I don’t hold Texans or lots of Americans individually accountable for every single act of Trump or Abbott or other creatures. But I absolutely think citizens need to be accountable and not pretend like who they vote for or what sort of rhetoric they allow to flourish is unrelated to their behavior. It’s infantilizing not to. 

Sorry, to clarify I mean their actions since October 7th. Obviously they bear at least some responsibility for such a far right government coming into power in the first place, and vice versa for Gazans.

[elfenix 34,223]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

That’s possible. Or Israel could help install PNA in Gaza and help fund the rebuild. Remove the blockade by Egypt and Israel. And remove all settlements in West Bank. The UN could even be involved to help. 

But if the 6 time defeated Palestinians want to continue to kill people instead of focusing on building a peaceful state and partnership with their neighbors then they will continue to suffer the consequences. 

fyi:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-palestinian-authority-current-form-should-not-run-gaza-2023-11-12/

[Anastasis 23,461]

8 minutes ago, elfenix said:

fyi:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-palestinian-authority-current-form-should-not-run-gaza-2023-11-12/

Bibi. 

[Brisketexan 105,064]

fyi:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-palestinian-authority-current-form-should-not-run-gaza-2023-11-12/

In a related story, Bibi should choke to death on a dick.

[Anastasis 23,461]

If not for all the history, it would make some measure of sense to roll WB and a Gaza strip that could be made contiguous (river to the sea oh noes) under temporary Jordanian protection/administration as a bridge to sovereign independence. But Arab geopolitics gonna Arab geopolitic so that will never fucking happen. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Anastasis

[statsman 5,450]

4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Killing a bunch of them without addressing the environment and conditions that lead to a far-right fundamentalist group like Hamas gaining power is just kicking the can down the road. They'll either return or something worse will replace them.

I think it would help if Iran were kept from using the Palestinians as part of their own game board. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by statsman

[Neonmoon 38,129]

40 minutes ago, elfenix said:

fyi:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-palestinian-authority-current-form-should-not-run-gaza-2023-11-12/

Israel sucks too. 

[bolverk 29,655]

1 hour ago, Willfully Horn said:

Stolen land was stolen, was stolen, was stolen, was stolen….. 

I don’t get how anyone can draw a timeline and declare either side indigenous. Maybe I missed that explanation.

For what it's worth, I was watching one of those ancient history docs a few weeks ago, and they were discussing a recent genetic analysis on Israeli Jews and Palestinians, saying that about 50% of the DNA of both groups can be traced to the original Canaanite population.

The difference is that Israeli Jews tend to have more DNA from European haplogroups filling out the remaining 50%, while Palestinians tend to have more Arab admixture.

In other words, both groups basically have an equal claim to being indigenous since they're derived from the same genetic stock if you're looking at it from that perspective. The big picture is they're basically half-siblings sharing the same dad but different moms (or different dads and the same mom).

[956 Worldwide 34,701]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

For what it's worth, I was watching one of those ancient history docs a few weeks ago, and they were discussing a recent genetic analysis on Israeli Jews and Palestinians, saying that about 50% of the DNA of both groups can be traced to the original Canaanite population.

The difference is that Israeli Jews tend to have more DNA from European haplogroups filling out the remaining 50%, while Palestinians tend to have more Arab admixture.

In other words, both groups basically have an equal claim to being indigenous since they're derived from the same genetic stock if you're looking at it from that perspective. The big picture is they're basically half-siblings sharing the same dad but different moms (or different dads and the same mom).

One thing that I was surprised by at first, then after reflection understood, was the reaction my European friends had to the 23andme craze a few years back (aside from the whole selling genetic data to the CCP thing). 
 

I never did it but found it benign and could see why people would be interested.  My European friends found it horrifying and dystopian and explained that only awful people cared about their genetic mixture.  After some cogitation, I realized that tracked, and that my feelings would have been different in the American South at a certain point in time. 
 

I am concerned about any attempts to use genetics as a data point for who has a right to live where.  

[bolverk 29,655]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I am concerned about any attempts to use genetics as a data point for who has a right to live where.  

Yeah, I tend to agree. But when a nation is created on the basis of having the first claim to a land and run as a religious ethnostate, it opens up Pandora's Box where you kinda want to know something about the people who are being displaced.

I mean, what's the reason for the Israeli government's opposition to allowing Palestinians to return to the villages from where their grandparents were kicked out? Well, they don't belong to the Jewish ethnoreligious group.

[956 Worldwide 34,701]

Also, whenever I hear about settler colonialism and its great and unique evils, I am reminded to go to my bookshelf and pull off my favorite relic of my time in Pakistan, a slight illustrated tome called “A Children’s History of Sindh.” 
 

What’s remarkable about this book is the matter of fact chronicling of successive waves of conquest and exchange, framed as benign to positive, all contributing to the beauty and uniqueness of Sindh culture. The Persians, the Indo-Greeks, the Arabs, the Mughals. All part of the beautiful and complex tapestry of Sindhi culture and religion. 
 

Until you got to the British.  A bunch of bloody minded buggers who fucked hp the beautiful, peaceful harmony that was the Indus River valley, bringing nothing of value, destroying, spreading cruelty and hate. 
 

Now, I imagine that if you were an actual Sindhi living through the Arab conquest and forced Islamization of your home, you’d have found it bloody and terrifying indeed.  But that was a long time ago and Islam was quite effective at conversion indeed.

A good reminder that sometimes it’s just centuries and single-mindedness that separates culture exchange from imperial colonialism. 

[Brian Fantana 6,680]

20 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One thing that I was surprised by at first, then after reflection understood, was the reaction my European friends had to the 23andme craze a few years back (aside from the whole selling genetic data to the CCP thing). 
 

I never did it but found it benign and could see why people would be interested.  My European friends found it horrifying and dystopian and explained that only awful people cared about their genetic mixture.  After some cogitation, I realized that tracked, and that my feelings would have been different in the American South at a certain point in time. 
 

I am concerned about any attempts to use genetics as a data point for who has a right to live where.  

Yeah that is an interesting thing to think about. I've never done it but I considered it just out of curiosity. I wouldn't care one way or another of course, but I can see how some people might find it very weird.

[956 Worldwide 34,701]

23 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yeah, I tend to agree. But when a nation is created on the basis of having the first claim to a land and run as a religious ethnostate, it opens up Pandora's Box where you kinda want to know something about the people who are being displaced.

I mean, what's the reason for the Israeli government's opposition to allowing Palestinians to return to the villages from where their grandparents were kicked out? Well, they don't belong to the Jewish ethnoreligious group.

I get that, I just see it as a short logical leap from “I get to come because I belong” to “you should go back where you came from because you don’t belong.” 

[bolverk 29,655]

32 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I get that, I just see it as a short logical leap from “I get to come because I belong” to “you should go back where you came from because you don’t belong.” 

Of course, it is or can be. Like you, I see the whole DNA thing from both an American and Western European perspective (I did a year-long study abroad program in France, living with French families and going to an all-French school and a separate summer program in Germany).

For your standard issue American of European stock, it's just something that scratches that curiosity itch, especially for those of us (myself included) who're adopted. But, then, we've got our history of octoroon bullshit, so yeah...

And for most Western Europeans, that whole ethnicity and nation-states built around them is one of the major reasons for the whole EU thing. Most of them kind of want to get away from that bloody history (fuck you, Le Pen), not to mention wars of religion. And, well, needless to say, there was that whole Holocaust thing not too far in the past.

This is all just a long way of saying you're preaching to the choir.

[Willfully Horn 8,001]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Also, whenever I hear about settler colonialism and its great and unique evils, I am reminded to go to my bookshelf and pull off my favorite relic of my time in Pakistan, a slight illustrated tome called “A Children’s History of Sindh.” 
 

What’s remarkable about this book is the matter of fact chronicling of successive waves of conquest and exchange, framed as benign to positive, all contributing to the beauty and uniqueness of Sindh culture. The Persians, the Indo-Greeks, the Arabs, the Mughals. All part of the beautiful and complex tapestry of Sindhi culture and religion. 
 

Until you got to the British.  A bunch of bloody minded buggers who fucked hp the beautiful, peaceful harmony that was the Indus River valley, bringing nothing of value, destroying, spreading cruelty and hate. 
 

Now, I imagine that if you were an actual Sindhi living through the Arab conquest and forced Islamization of your home, you’d have found it bloody and terrifying indeed.  But that was a long time ago and Islam was quite effective at conversion indeed.

A good reminder that sometimes it’s just centuries and single-mindedness that separates culture exchange from imperial colonialism. 

Five point five thousand years. Fifty five centuries. 
 

Five is a tumultuous number.

[Welshy 907]

the much larger and more powerful Kingdom of Assyria began a period of expansion, and small states such as Israel and Judah were no match against the Assyrian armies. Eventually, Samaria fell and Israel became a part of the Assyrian provincial administration. By 721 b.c. Israel ceased to exist as an independent nation.

https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/now-at-the-met/features/2013/cyrus-and-the-judean-diaspora#:~:text=the much larger and more,exist as an independent nation.

[elfenix 34,223]

16 minutes ago, Welshy said:

the much larger and more powerful Kingdom of Assyria began a period of expansion, and small states such as Israel and Judah were no match against the Assyrian armies. Eventually, Samaria fell and Israel became a part of the Assyrian provincial administration. By 721 b.c. Israel ceased to exist as an independent nation.

https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/now-at-the-met/features/2013/cyrus-and-the-judean-diaspora#:~:text=the much larger and more,exist as an independent nation.

[Satchel 6,928]

Breaking:

Israel, Hamas reach tentative 5-day ceasefire deal for release of hostages: Report

Hostages would be released in small batches, every 24 hours, in exchange for a pause in the ongoing ground operation of the Israeli army in Gaza, a news report said.
 

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/israel-hamas-ceasefire-release-hostages-report-gaza-us-2464723-2023-11-19

[Satchel 6,928]

That ol’ booger, Biden gets a lot done before he goes to bed at 6p.

[tx 3 putt 76,870]

56 minutes ago, Satchel said:

That ol’ booger, Biden gets a lot done before he goes to bed at 6p.

 

one missile fired, let the Israelis unleash hell

[Dutchrudder 11,133]

I jdon't understand how anyone can support a "2 state solution" to this never ending fued, when we know the newly created Palestinian state would never agree to recognize Israel as a sovereign nation with normalized relations. It's a large part of the reason why every other attempt has failed, and why it won't work this time either. Israel isn't going to "Free Palestine" when they know it would just be creating another Arab nation that wants to destroy it. That new nation would immediately become (or continue to be) a pawn of neighboring Arab states as the primary location for continuing their never ending proxy war on Israel. 

Nothing has changed in the last few decades, no matter how many people die on either side, you can't force Gaza to try a progressive democracy and use diplomacy to settle issues. And I can't really blame Israel for not wanting to create a more formidable enemy out of Gaza or the West Bank by granting them nation status. So I think this military operation will continue until they are satisfied, but it will "end" with most of Gaza occupied by the IDF, and it will become their Iraq-like quagmire. Their troops will be attacked periodically, some will die in IED blasts, and they will continue to use the never ending sporadic attacks as justification for their military presence forever and ever. 

 

[InkaUtexas 25,861]

Don't agree. things were changing. Turkey has always traded with Israel. They were working on a pipeline for the offshore project. Jordan was developing a desalinization project with Israel. Saudi Arabia was talking about normalizing relations. Shit, you have Israelis going to Dubai as both investors and tourists. October 7th changed all of that. 

I spent 7 years living in the Middle East. One team in the company I worked for was involved in some development projects in Israel. Mainly agriculture technology they were using in Africa. To get there they would travel to Turkey and then Tel Aviv. In Turkey their passports would not be stamped upon entry in Israel or Turkey.  Instead there would be a peace of paper stamped and inserted. Why? Because no one with an Israeli stamp could enter the UAE and we all lived there. Me with my Afghan visa? No problem. 

A two state solution could work. But it requires guarantees by both Egypt and Jordan. Israel has pretty good relations with them. Do no confuse Syria with Oman. Yemen with Jordan. 

[Anastasis 23,461]

8 hours ago, Satchel said:

That ol’ booger, Biden gets a lot done before he goes to bed at 6p.

Yeah seems like he’s killing it. SA meanwhile appears to be looking to China to be a peacemaker. What a fn world. 
 

https://english.alarabiya.net/amp/News/middle-east/2023/11/19/Arab-Islamic-ministerial-committee-to-kick-off-Gaza-war-talks-in-China-Saudi-FM-

A ministerial committee tasked by the Arab-Islamic summit to formulate an action plan to stop the war on Gaza will kick off its work from China, Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan announced.

Ministers from Arab and Muslim countries are expected to start their flurry of political activity from China on Monday, Prince Faisal said in a video posted on the ministry’s account of platform X on Saturday.

“The first stop will be in China and will then move to a number of capitals to deliver the clear message that there must be a ceasefire immediately as well as aid and humanitarian needs must be immediately delivered to Gaza,” Prince Faisal said after meeting with European Union foreign policy chief Josep Borrell on the sidelines of a conference in Bahrain.

“We must work to end this crisis and end this war on Gaza as soon as possible,” Prince Faisal said.
 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Anastasis

[linux 1,660]

15 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s always “context” and “circumstances” that lead to a far-right group gaining power. Imagine how you’d feel if you lost 19 percent of your country and had to tolerate enemy occupation in your industrial heartland!  A stab in the back! 
 

As far as election margins go, Netanyahu received a far lower percentage than Hamas did and no one is racing to contextualize that or pretend like Israelis don’t bear some responsibility for who governs them. 
 

 

Netanyahu won last year, Gaza has not had elections since VY

[linux 1,660]

5 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

I jdon't understand how anyone can support a "2 state solution" to this never ending fued, when we know the newly created Palestinian state would never agree to recognize Israel as a sovereign nation with normalized relations. It's a large part of the reason why every other attempt has failed, and why it won't work this time either. Israel isn't going to "Free Palestine" when they know it would just be creating another Arab nation that wants to destroy it. That new nation would immediately become (or continue to be) a pawn of neighboring Arab states as the primary location for continuing their never ending proxy war on Israel. 

Nothing has changed in the last few decades, no matter how many people die on either side, you can't force Gaza to try a progressive democracy and use diplomacy to settle issues. And I can't really blame Israel for not wanting to create a more formidable enemy out of Gaza or the West Bank by granting them nation status. So I think this military operation will continue until they are satisfied, but it will "end" with most of Gaza occupied by the IDF, and it will become their Iraq-like quagmire. Their troops will be attacked periodically, some will die in IED blasts, and they will continue to use the never ending sporadic attacks as justification for their military presence forever and ever. 

 

Because security wise there is absolutely no difference as there is now, Lets pretend for a fucking second that it is just Gaza, that the WB with all the land stealing, Jerusalem, Dome of the Rock, settlers, partitioned into 5 quasi states (the Edhud Barak deal), 3% land loss. Etc lets pretend the real prize for Israel and the only thing it wants to keep no longer exists.

Then we have just Gaza, Israel does not want Gaza, they tried to pawn if of to Egypt, and Egypt said fuck no, you won it fair and square in that sneak attack in 67. Leaving Israel either giving them independence, or continuing apartheid (they control the borders, sea and air, and kill with impunity extrajudicially hence apartheid).

I honestly see no difference as a security threat, I mean they still use their brains to smuggle all the weapons they need. Are they ever going to get an airforce or something?

Hezbollah is in an independent Lebanon that Israel has no problem violating their sovereignty, if anything they have more to lose and are therefore less crazy than Hamas.

Honestly if the WB did not exist Israel would just make any peace deal in Gaza, like literally keep everything, a two state solution would happen yesterday.

[elfenix 34,223]

Netanyahu won last year, Gaza has not had elections since VY

And the knesset has a unique electoral structure that encourages the fragmentation of political parties.

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/25792

[Chopper 17,230]

Hamas loves its people they'd never put a military command center underneath a hospi oops

 

 

[Chopper 17,230]

There's no way they can evacuate 31 preemies. Imposs..

<Notice the Israeli soldiers didn't behead any of the babies unlike the scum they're fighting.>

[956 Worldwide 34,701]

41 minutes ago, Chopper said:

There's no way they can evacuate 31 preemies. Imposs..

<Notice the Israeli soldiers didn't behead any of the babies unlike the scum they're fighting.>

There is footage that purports to show hostages being brought to the hospital on October 7. 
 

 

[956 Worldwide 34,701]

If it is true that hostages were brought in here, it should spark a serious debate about the complicity of hospital administrators and staff (not patients). It is one thing to be bullied in peace time to accept hideouts and logistics rooms. It’s quite another to be complicit in using a medical facility as a hostage stash house, all the while preening about how sacrosanct and inviable it ought to be. 
 

I’m reminded very much of how medicine was hijacked by Europe’s 20th century totalitarians. 

[956 Worldwide 34,701]

 

[sheeeit 129]

On 11/17/2023 at 5:49 PM, InkaUtexas said:

Yep. And with the same logic so could Israel. Neither will of course. 

 

You truly think if Israel "surrendered" that Hamas would stop trying to kill them?  What has Hamas ever done to make anyone think that?  

[sheeeit 129]

On 11/18/2023 at 12:50 PM, Brian Fantana said:

Killing a bunch of them without addressing the environment and conditions that lead to a far-right fundamentalist group like Hamas gaining power is just kicking the can down the road. They'll either return or something worse will replace them.

I have a real problem with this sentiment.  Maybe I am not understanding your point.

The vast majority of people who are condemning Israel for their offensive and seemingly being supportive of Palestinians (as opposed to Hamas) all seem to suggest that Hamas represents a small percentage of Palestinians.  I hear this a lot.  Israel is killing "innocent" non combatives.  I hear most Palestinians just want to live in peace and go to work and raise kids etc.  So, IF that is true (I do not believe it to be) then why or how could another Hamas type group emerge in a post Hamas Gaza?  Israel is going to shred Hamas including both people and weapons.  It will be effectively destroyed.  

So if we assume that post Hamas Gaza gets vast international aid to rebuild their territory and some sort of international police force is present in Gaza during the rebuilding, how would a new Hamas get a foothold there?  The only way would be if there really are a larger percentage of Gazans that are fine with killing Jews and trying to destroy Israel.  

I firmly believe that we are going to find out.  Hamas is going to be wiped out.  Gaza is going to be given an opportunity at true self determination after this conflict is over.  International aid in the billions will flow into Gaza.  If in 10 years, Gaza is living peacefully then they will be left alone by Israel.  If in 10 years another Hamas type emerges to some position of control then Israel is going to decimate the whole population.

[sheeeit 129]

On 11/18/2023 at 10:48 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

This op-ed in The Guardian is very clear eyed and scathing about Netanyahu. And I agree.  I will also say that there appears to be serious momentum and pressure on Netanyahu internally and hopefully this will spell the end of his tenure, one way or another. 
 

It is equally clear-eyed about Hamas and the need to eliminate them as a capable governing authority.  It really is adequate to compare them and their ideology to the Nazis.  Adolf Hitler was quite clear in his ideology that if Germans could not win the war, they did not deserve to exist. They were willing to sacrifice every single German to accomplish their aims and did end up with their country ruined. People need to be clear-eyed about what it means to live next door to a political entity with similar fanatical aim and outlook. 
 

 

Good read.  Just my opinion but I believe that after this conflict is resolved, Bibi will step down.  I hope so.  

[Brisketexan 105,064]

Good read.  Just my opinion but I believe that after this conflict is resolved, Bibi will step down.  I hope so.  

Nope.
Don’t forget a very important fact: Bibi is an actual fucking criminal, and being PM is his plan to stay out of prison. He will not give up power willingly.

[InkaUtexas 25,861]

1 hour ago, sheeeit said:

You truly think if Israel "surrendered" that Hamas would stop trying to kill them?  What has Hamas ever done to make anyone think that?  

Was being sarcastic. 

[Gatorubet 30,185]

On 11/18/2023 at 3:35 PM, Willfully Horn said:

Stolen land was stolen, was stolen, was stolen, was stolen….. 

I don’t get how anyone can draw a timeline and declare either side indigenous. Maybe I missed that explanation.

It’s always fascinating when you have an intersection of religion and geography. As a practical matter, anyone’s Promised Land did not come about from God making it happen, but from your side killing all the people who were there before you - and/or killing enough until you drove the rest of them out.  The Old Testament is pretty clear that the children of Israel committed genocide on the people who were there to get their Promised Land.(God’s command that every living person in Canaan be put to death).  It’s also clear since the crusades that people who are not Jews have been declaring it their land, and killing the people who were living there at any given time, no matter what their religion.

So how much validity to we give a claim that this is my sacred God given land? I’m often reminded of the Lakota Sioux  and the Sacred Black Hills that the white man stole.  In a lot of ways that claim is a whole lot of bullshit. The land used to belong to the Cheyenne, before the Lakota were driven out of the great lakes area and pushed west. The Cheyenne also fucked up by introducing horses to the Lakota, who eventually became so numerous that they drove the Cheyenne out of the Black Hills.  IOW, the sacred Black Hills of the Sioux we’re only the sacred Black Hills from about 1775 on.  

That said, once you claim some places your sacred land, then it is hell to pay if somebody else comes along and drove you outta there the same way you drove out the previous inhabitants.  I have no idea where the hell I’m going with this, but I just had a thought bubble about the factor of the land belonging to someone because their religion said it does.

When the smoke clears, you have the military juice to keep it or you don’t. Whether you attribute your successful military operations that took it in the first place to God or not, well, that is another matter for another day’s discussion.