Israel

[Brian Fantana 6689]

1 hour ago, Jatrain said:

Are you suggesting that the IDF (and other Israeli security forces) don’t subject Palestinian women to sexual violence, including rape?

Or are you saying that the rapes performed by Hamas is worse than the rapes performed by Israel?

He's not only saying that, but straight up saying that Palestinian civilian lives are worth less than Israeli lives. His entire view on this issue is drenched in IDF propaganda. You're never going to convince him that Palestinians are humans. They're animals to him, period.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

Like, he's not going to outright say it, but to him, Palestinians are uniformly no better than the Nazis.

There are plenty of people like him in this thread, many/most of whom will not say what they truly believe. There have been so many posts in here absolutely laced with Western/Israeli media propaganda and a hideous amount of Islamophobia, and half the time they probably don't even realize what they're doing and how genocidal their rhetoric is. It's made me lose all respect for some posters in this thread, and definitely all hope for not only the extended family I have in the region, but the world in general.

We're all bloodthirsty pieces of shit and it'd be great if an asteroid wiped us all out so we can't further pollute the universe.

[statsman 5471]

Palestinians are not Nazis, nor are they “like” Nazis. Hamas sure as hell is like Nazis. 
 
I would compare the Palestinians to the non-Nazi party citizens of Germany. They wanted Germany to win (patriotism, nationalism, social pressure, whatever), were not really given any choice in things (authoritarian government), and suffered for their government’s decisions. I’ve said before, on WWII threads, that Nazi Germany was hell- the first eight years, the Germans were the demons. The last couple, they were the damned. 
 
Palestinians, under Hamas rule, never got the period where they had the upper hand, never were the demons. They just get the part where they are the damned. 

[Bullneck 19113]

 

 

[Aqua Buddha 14598]

12 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

 

 

Not anti-Semitic at all, right?  It's just about Israeli government policies or something.

[Jatrain 288]

20 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Not anti-Semitic at all, right?  It's just about Israeli government policies or something.

I don’t understand these posts.  No one denies there is antisemitism in this world, some perpetuated by Palestinians and their supporters.  Just like there is anti-palestian-ism (not sure what is the best world, Islamophobia feels to broad and Palestinians are a Semitic people), some perpetuated by Israeli’s and their supporters.  
 

That there is antisemitism or anti-Palestinian-ism doesn’t excuse the horrific actions taken by both sides. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

20 minutes ago, Jatrain said:

I don’t understand these posts.  No one denies there is antisemitism in this world, some perpetuated by Palestinians and their supporters.  Just like there is anti-palestian-ism (not sure what is the best world, Islamophobia feels to broad and Palestinians are a Semitic people), some perpetuated by Israeli’s and their supporters.  
 

That there is antisemitism or anti-Palestinian-ism doesn’t excuse the horrific actions taken by both sides. 

I will try to provide some clarification (at least in regards to this thread)

No one supports Hamas. Most people don't support Israel's actions in Gaza, or even the West Bank. It is has been expressed throughout this thread. 

Nothing justifies the death of innocent civilians. 

There is one slight disagreement between parties in this thread, and generally, between anyone that falls on either side of the war. There is a tendency for Palestinians supporters to promote a false equivalency. I'm not saying I don't understand it. Innocent Palestinians are being killed in this war. It is horrible. I wish it wasn't happening. I say false equivalency because Hamas intentionally raped women to death. They intentionally decapitated children. They proudly did horrific things to innocent civilians. They filmed it, and proudly spread these videos. While Israel bombs killing women and children is also terrible. In my opinion, it is in no way equal to Hamas' actions. 

Now, I've read the articles that state Israel knew it was killing civilians with their bombs. While incredibly sad, militaries bombing targets that may or may not have collateral damage is not new. That doesn't make it equivalent. They asked Palestinians to leave the area before they started their campaign. They set up corridors for them to leave the area after they started their campaign. They don't want to kill civilians. If they could wave a magic wand and not kill any civilians and only Hamas targets, they would. Hamas wants to kill civilians. That is the difference. And yes, it's a big difference. 

 

 

 

 

[Bullneck 19113]

14 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I will try to provide some clarification (at least in regards to this thread)

No one supports Hamas. Most people don't support Israel's actions in Gaza, or even the West Bank. It is has been expressed throughout this thread. 

Nothing justifies the death of innocent civilians. 

There is one slight disagreement between parties in this thread, and generally, between anyone that falls on either side of the war. There is a tendency for Palestinians supporters to promote a false equivalency. I'm not saying I don't understand it. Innocent Palestinians are being killed in this war. It is horrible. I wish it wasn't happening. I say false equivalency because Hamas intentionally raped women to death. They intentionally decapitated children. They proudly did horrific things to innocent civilians. They filmed it, and proudly spread these videos. While Israel bombs killing women and children is also terrible. In my opinion, it is in no way equal to Hamas' actions. 

Now, I've read the articles that state Israel knew it was killing civilians with their bombs. While incredibly sad, militaries bombing targets that may or may not have collateral damage is not new. That doesn't make it equivalent. They asked Palestinians to leave the area before they started their campaign. They set up corridors for them to leave the area after they started their campaign. They don't want to kill civilians. If they could wave a magic wand and not kill any civilians and only Hamas targets, they would. Hamas wants to kill civilians. That is the difference. And yes, it's a big difference. 

Probably the best post I've read in this thread in a long time, maybe ever.

 

[Jatrain 288]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I will try to provide some clarification (at least in regards to this thread)

No one supports Hamas. Most people don't support Israel's actions in Gaza, or even the West Bank. It is has been expressed throughout this thread. 

Nothing justifies the death of innocent civilians. 

There is one slight disagreement between parties in this thread, and generally, between anyone that falls on either side of the war. There is a tendency for Palestinians supporters to promote a false equivalency. I'm not saying I don't understand it. Innocent Palestinians are being killed in this war. It is horrible. I wish it wasn't happening. I say false equivalency because Hamas intentionally raped women to death. They intentionally decapitated children. They proudly did horrific things to innocent civilians. They filmed it, and proudly spread these videos. While Israel bombs killing women and children is also terrible. In my opinion, it is in no way equal to Hamas' actions. 

Now, I've read the articles that state Israel knew it was killing civilians with their bombs. While incredibly sad, militaries bombing targets that may or may not have collateral damage is not new. That doesn't make it equivalent. They asked Palestinians to leave the area before they started their campaign. They set up corridors for them to leave the area after they started their campaign. They don't want to kill civilians. If they could wave a magic wand and not kill any civilians and only Hamas targets, they would. Hamas wants to kill civilians. That is the difference. And yes, it's a big difference. 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate this post, but will quibble with one part of it.  If we are to solely focus on Hamas’s actions on October 7th (and up to now) and Israel’s reaction to that, as you have in your post, then yes I would agree that there would be a false equivalence.  

But that focus fails to take into what has happened in the decades of occupation before 10/7.  IDF soldiers (and other Israeli security forces) have employed sexual violence, including rape, against Palestinian women (cites provided by request). According to the UN, an average of almost 1 child per week is killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank.  An additional 700 are arrested and detained, without trial. UNICEF details practices that are classified as “cruel, inhuman, or degrading” according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Convention Against Torture, both ratified by Israel and the PA.  

I don’t think it’s a false equivalence to say that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Hamas is bad and that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Israeli forces is bad as well.  I don’t think one is “less bad” than another.  

That being said, I don’t think that Hamas and Israeli are equal, despite their actions having some equivalence.  Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a liberal democracy with the benefits (American $ and weapons) and responsibilities (to both their citizens and to their Palestinian subjects) that come along with being a member of world community.  Israel should be held to a higher standard than Hamas.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Jatrain

[Neonmoon 38129]

1 hour ago, Jatrain said:

I appreciate this post, but will quibble with one part of it.  If we are to solely focus on Hamas’s actions on October 7th (and up to now) and Israel’s reaction to that, as you have in your post, then yes I would agree that there would be a false equivalence.  

But that focus fails to take into what has happened in the decades of occupation before 10/7.  IDF soldiers (and other Israeli security forces) have employed sexual violence, including rape, against Palestinian women (cites provided by request). According to the UN, an average of almost 1 child per week is killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank.  An additional 700 are arrested and detained, without trial. UNICEF details practices that are classified as “cruel, inhuman, or degrading” according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Convention Against Torture, both ratified by Israel and the PA.  

I don’t think it’s a false equivalence to say that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Hamas is bad and that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Israeli forces is bad as well.  I don’t think one is “less bad” than another.  

That being said, I don’t think that Hamas and Israeli are equal, despite their actions having some equivalence.  Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a liberal democracy with the benefits (American $ and weapons) and responsibilities (to both their citizens and to their Palestinian subjects) that come along with being a member of world community.  Israel should be held to a higher standard than Hamas.

You are still creating a false equivalency 

Any IDF soldier that has employed sexual violence against Palestinian women was not an intentional policy of Israel. There are pieces of shit everywhere. Many join the armed forces. US soldiers have committed similar acts of atrocity in Vietnam and most likely every war. That wasn't an intentional act by the United States. That was a piece of shit being a piece of shit. The solider, if reported, would be charged and convicted of a crime. The US and Israel do not celebrate rape. The Hamas soldier is not being charged with a crime, they are being celebrated by Hamas, and in some instances in these videos, by other Palestinians in the videos. 

It is not the same thing.

Yes. One is less bad than the other. 

I agree, Israel should be held to a higher standard. Why do you think they are being peer pressured by the United States into cease-fires for hostages exchanges? Sending humanitarian aid? Israel's run by far right pieces of shit too. This is the world holding them to a higher standard. 

Palestinian protestors are not calling for the end of Hamas. They are not protesting Hamas at Mosques. They are not calling for new elections in Gaza. Gazans are not helping Israel find and locate these terrorists. 

I think all people that want to live in peace and live in a free world should be held to a higher standard, and that includes Palestinians. 

 

 

 

 

[956 Worldwide 34715]

6 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I will try to provide some clarification (at least in regards to this thread)

No one supports Hamas. Most people don't support Israel's actions in Gaza, or even the West Bank. It is has been expressed throughout this thread. 

Nothing justifies the death of innocent civilians. 

There is one slight disagreement between parties in this thread, and generally, between anyone that falls on either side of the war. There is a tendency for Palestinians supporters to promote a false equivalency. I'm not saying I don't understand it. Innocent Palestinians are being killed in this war. It is horrible. I wish it wasn't happening. I say false equivalency because Hamas intentionally raped women to death. They intentionally decapitated children. They proudly did horrific things to innocent civilians. They filmed it, and proudly spread these videos. While Israel bombs killing women and children is also terrible. In my opinion, it is in no way equal to Hamas' actions. 

Now, I've read the articles that state Israel knew it was killing civilians with their bombs. While incredibly sad, militaries bombing targets that may or may not have collateral damage is not new. That doesn't make it equivalent. They asked Palestinians to leave the area before they started their campaign. They set up corridors for them to leave the area after they started their campaign. They don't want to kill civilians. If they could wave a magic wand and not kill any civilians and only Hamas targets, they would. Hamas wants to kill civilians. That is the difference. And yes, it's a big difference. 

 

 

 

 

This is exactly it. Making any kind of equivalence to Hamas and Israel or the IDF is offensive and horribly informed. And we all understand the implication. If Hamas (a fanatical, totalitarian, terrorist organization) has no right to exist, then neither does Israel when you make those equivalencies. And moreover the voice that are the loudest in saying “Hamas =/= Palestine” are often the first to say “Hamas and Israel are equivalent.” 

[Bullneck 19113]

2 hours ago, Jatrain said:

I appreciate this post, but will quibble with one part of it.  If we are to solely focus on Hamas’s actions on October 7th (and up to now) and Israel’s reaction to that, as you have in your post, then yes I would agree that there would be a false equivalence.  

But that focus fails to take into what has happened in the decades of occupation before 10/7.  IDF soldiers (and other Israeli security forces) have employed sexual violence, including rape, against Palestinian women (cites provided by request). According to the UN, an average of almost 1 child per week is killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank.  An additional 700 are arrested and detained, without trial. UNICEF details practices that are classified as “cruel, inhuman, or degrading” according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Convention Against Torture, both ratified by Israel and the PA.  

I don’t think it’s a false equivalence to say that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Hamas is bad and that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Israeli forces is bad as well.  I don’t think one is “less bad” than another.  

That being said, I don’t think that Hamas and Israeli are equal, despite their actions having some equivalence.  Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a liberal democracy with the benefits (American $ and weapons) and responsibilities (to both their citizens and to their Palestinian subjects) that come along with being a member of world community.  Israel should be held to a higher standard than Hamas.

I've never mentioned this before, but I am the head of Hamas.

Earlier this year I was thinking about rewriting our constitution and taking out that whole "Israel shouldn't exist" thingy.  I also thought about reaching to the world and letting them know we've changed our ways.  No more rocket firing or tunnels and all that.  All we are saying is give peace a chance.  How bad can the Israelis be, if you're earnest?  I was ready to try.  I was thinking about doing things that helped my people as a whole, so no more skimming money and hiding it in Qatar.  Maybe even have a real election and do some of that democracy stuff.

Then I woke up on the day of the OU game and said, fuck it.  "Let's get out there and kills some people!" just like that Jack Palance movie ('member that one?).  Things were great for about a day or so afterward.  Was I wrong?

[Biff Tannen 45691]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I have only paid attention to this "new" war for a few days after October 7th. 

I was under the impression that the entire concept of the protests we are seeing in the US (and around the world?) is more of a backlash against the government and existence of the Israeli state since, well, its existence.  I find it a little odd that Gen Z (or whomever) is just now latching onto this notion, but I didn't understand it to be an attempt at equivocating Hamas and Israel.

It seems to me that a whole bunch of people decided that the way Israel came into existence wasn't fair to the Palestinians and that is the root cause of the protests.

Am I wrong?

[GW Hayduke 1953]

Since people are comparing Hamas to the Israeli military, what are the numbers of civilian casualties caused by each one? 

[956 Worldwide 34715]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

  I find it a little odd that Gen Z (or whomever) is just now latching onto this notion, but I didn't understand it to be an attempt at equivocating Hamas and Israel.

It seems to me that a whole bunch of people decided that the way Israel came into existence wasn't fair to the Palestinians and that is the root cause of the protests.

Am I wrong?

The existence of no country is “fair.” Not a single fucking one. It’s only a function of time and attention that their existence comes to be accepted. Show me a country and I’ll show you an atrocity that happened at a key moment in its creation. 

And if the only one you give a shit about enough to protest is the existence of the world’s only Jewish country, then suck it up buttercup and accept how people will view that choice. 

[Biff Tannen 45691]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The existence of no country is “fair.” Not a single fucking one. It’s only a function of time and attention that their existence comes to be accepted. Show me a country and I’ll show you an atrocity that happened at a key moment in its creation. 

And if the only one you give a shit about enough to protest is the existence of the world’s only Jewish country, then suck it up buttercup and accept how people will view that choice. 

Fair enough.  I am happy to discuss other countries as well (hello Native Americans), but I think part of the distinction that confuses people, including myself, is the inclusion of the Jewish faith as a race. I have always found that bizarre, as no other modern religion that I’m aware of gets included this way. 
 

Look, it’s clear there are huge opinions on this whole thing. I try and look at it from a rational perspective as best I can, as I have no real dog in this fight, apart from general human empathy and also being a good student of history.  Trying to learn and trying to find out what paths we can take to deescalation and maybe peace. 

So far, I find it unlikely there is a solution. 
 

 

[Anastasis 23474]

I don't think that anybody here has really argued that the IDF and Hamas militants are perfectly equivalent. They are clearly very different types of terrorist organizations. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23474]

On 12/1/2023 at 6:56 PM, Willfully Horn said:

While I don’t doubt that, I still am unsure of how reliable dci-p is. They are a branch of a terrorist government, after all.

Relevant to the recent exchange.

 

 

Also longer clip worth a listen over your cup of coffee.

 

 

[statsman 5471]

14 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

Since people are comparing Hamas to the Israeli military, what are the numbers of civilian casualties caused by each one? 

All of the civilian casualties (Israeli and Gazan) are caused by Hamas. Hamas is responsible for all of them, every one. 

[Willfully Horn 8019]

8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Relevant to the recent exchange.

 

 

Also longer clip worth a listen over your cup of coffee.

 

 

What conclusions did you come to, about Paul, the dci, the reported prison rape of a teenage boy, and the IDF confiscating dci’s computers and then labeling the org a terrorist group?

Because I still don’t know who to believe. And I am skeptical of right wing actors, including Bibi. However, I have a lot of faith in  your average bubbeh.

[wildcat09 29355]

8 hours ago, statsman said:

All of the civilian casualties (Israeli and Gazan) are caused by Hamas. Hamas is responsible for all of them, every one. 

This is the type of thing people who are about to commit genocide often say about their targets and if you really believe it you’d be giving Israel moral permission to slaughter millions of people.

[statsman 5471]

If Israel really wanted to commit genocide, it would have been accomplished. Israel doesn’t want to commit genocide. It wants to eradicate Hamas, who has a strategy of hiding among the civilians it claims to represent and govern, and restricting the ability of civilians to relocate. 
 
This is ugly, and unfair to innocent civilians. Unfair is not unjust. Unjust would be not allowing Israel to go after the Hamas forces that attacked their people so cruelly and wantonly. 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

It is someone else’s fault I am committing genocide. Also, I’m not committing genocide because I could have killed more. 

[956 Worldwide 34715]

18 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Fair enough.  I am happy to discuss other countries as well (hello Native Americans), but I think part of the distinction that confuses people, including myself, is the inclusion of the Jewish faith as a race. I have always found that bizarre, as no other modern religion that I’m aware of gets included this way. 
 

Look, it’s clear there are huge opinions on this whole thing. I try and look at it from a rational perspective as best I can, as I have no real dog in this fight, apart from general human empathy and also being a good student of history.  Trying to learn and trying to find out what paths we can take to deescalation and maybe peace. 

So far, I find it unlikely there is a solution. 
 

 

Jews aren’t a race for sure, as a survey of Jews in Israel and outside will reveal. The impetus to treat them as a race in our sense came from the (literal) Nazis who sought scientific and genetic justification for supposed Jewish inferiority and so I’d be cautious of referring to them as a race in the modern sense. 
 

I think it’s accurate to refer to a Jewish culture or nation or “people” with religious customs being a significant cultural marker but not necessary, there are secular and even atheist Jews. It is unique but then again the Jewish experience is unique as a people maintaining an identity formed in the Bronze Age and maintained and further shaped during a forced diaspora of millennia. 

[statsman 5471]

3 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

It is someone else’s fault I am committing genocide. Also, I’m not committing genocide because I could have killed more. 

Israel is not committing genocide. Israel knows what genocide is. Israel has been viciously attacked and is defending itself against similar future attacks (that have been promised). 
 
Hamas is the group that has expressed a desire for genocide and taken such actions. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

It certainly knows what ethnic cleansing is, at the very least.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

If Israel really wanted to commit genocide, it would have been accomplished. Israel doesn’t want to commit genocide. It wants to eradicate Hamas, who has a strategy of hiding among the civilians it claims to represent and govern, and restricting the ability of civilians to relocate. 
 
This is ugly, and unfair to innocent civilians. Unfair is not unjust. Unjust would be not allowing Israel to go after the Hamas forces that attacked their people so cruelly and wantonly. 

This is a dangerous, and frankly pretty naive, assumption to make. I think it would be entirely fair to say that at least some Israelis (chiefly, the ones that control the government and military, which seems important) would certainly like to commit genocide. There is plenty of evidence to make this assumption based on their past rhetoric and violent action that has taken place at their behest and/or approval.

It's dangerous to assume that it hasn't happened simply out of the goodness of Bibi & Co's collective hearts. They're "not" committing genocide (I put this in quotes because, frankly, there is still a great deal of debate around this, considering) because there is no possible way they could get away with outright genocide. I mean, other than just doing it and using the Western media apparatus to gaslight the world into believing they aren't, which certainly seems like a plausible outcome.

Now, would it be fair to say that a significant portion of the Israeli population would want to commit genocide? No, of course not, that would be insane. I don't believe they want that any more than I do.

 

[chainsaw 9869]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/abandoned-babies-found-decomposing-gaza-hospital-evacuated-rcna127533

Quote

Filmed about two weeks after the hospital was evacuated, the footage appears to show at least three of the five dead infants, with their bodies putrefying, in close proximity to catheters and ventilators.

One baby is seen decomposing while lying alone, appearing to still be connected to an oximeter with a green oxygen tank nearby, as insects appear to crawl on its chest. A bedsheet is used as a soft pillow, and an empty bottle and a medical glove box are shown closer to the bed’s edge.

Quote

Two independent forensic pathologists reviewed the raw footage. They said the advanced stages of decomposition of the dead infants is consistent with the roughly two weeks from the time the infants would have been abandoned to the date the video was shot.

Most moral army, right?

[Anastasis 23474]

Our politicians clown themselves. LOL at the 92 "present" votes. 

 

 

 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

Quote

anti-Zionism is antisemitism

We are such cucks

[Anastasis 23474]

The amount of gaslighting the basic concepts involved is amazing.

[Boss Hogg 808]

On 12/4/2023 at 4:17 PM, Biff Tannen said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I have only paid attention to this "new" war for a few days after October 7th. 

I was under the impression that the entire concept of the protests we are seeing in the US (and around the world?) is more of a backlash against the government and existence of the Israeli state since, well, its existence.  I find it a little odd that Gen Z (or whomever) is just now latching onto this notion, but I didn't understand it to be an attempt at equivocating Hamas and Israel.

It seems to me that a whole bunch of people decided that the way Israel came into existence wasn't fair to the Palestinians and that is the root cause of the protests.

Am I wrong?

Young people are fucking stupid, and loud. And taught by idiots like this.  

 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

21 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Young people are fucking stupid, and loud. And taught by idiots like this.  

 

Yes I'm sure that famous QAnon and Nazi-derived Great Replacement theory subscriber dipshit gigabitch Elise Stefanik is definitely asking good faith questions here, and I'm sure this video is in no way cut in such a fashion to make the responders look as bad as possible.

[Anastasis 23474]

Not related to this particular topic at all, but Bill Ackman is a degenerate and needs to be shot into the fucking sun. 

[Brisketexan 105153]

Yes I'm sure that famous QAnon and Nazi-derived Great Replacement theory subscriber dipshit gigabitch Elise Stefanik is definitely asking good faith questions here, and I'm sure this video is in no way cut in such a fashion to make the responders look as bad as possible.

Yet these same people breathlessly support and will vote for a man who has promised to crush those he calls “vermin” (defined as all who oppose him). In other words, EXACTLY THE FUCKING FASCIST GENOCIDE PLAYBOOK. Fuck EVER listening to a lecture from ANY of these assholes about genocide or exterminating your enemies. It’s the fucking foundational platform of their entire belief system. Fuck that shit.
Elise Stefanie can eat fucking shit, as can anyone who ever cites her as a moral authority on ANY point.

[statsman 5471]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

This is a dangerous, and frankly pretty naive, assumption to make. I think it would be entirely fair to say that at least some Israelis (chiefly, the ones that control the government and military, which seems important) would certainly like to commit genocide. There is plenty of evidence to make this assumption based on their past rhetoric and violent action that has taken place at their behest and/or approval.

It's dangerous to assume that it hasn't happened simply out of the goodness of Bibi & Co's collective hearts. They're "not" committing genocide (I put this in quotes because, frankly, there is still a great deal of debate around this, considering) because there is no possible way they could get away with outright genocide. I mean, other than just doing it and using the Western media apparatus to gaslight the world into believing they aren't, which certainly seems like a plausible outcome.

Now, would it be fair to say that a significant portion of the Israeli population would want to commit genocide? No, of course not, that would be insane. I don't believe they want that any more than I do.

 

You realize, that for the last dozen years, tens of thousands of lethal rockets and missiles have been fired blindly into Israeli civilian population centers, as a regular occurrence? More regular than the rain? That Israel has just assumed that it has to build and maintain an incredibly advanced air defense system, just to avoid going into Gaza and forcibly moving everyone out?

[956 Worldwide 34715]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet these same people breathlessly support and will vote for a man who has promised to crush those he calls “vermin” (defined as all who oppose him). In other words, EXACTLY THE FUCKING FASCIST GENOCIDE PLAYBOOK. Fuck EVER listening to a lecture from ANY of these assholes about genocide or exterminating your enemies. It’s the fucking foundational platform of their entire belief system. Fuck that shit.
Elise Stefanie can eat fucking shit, as can anyone who ever cites her as a moral authority on ANY point.

 

Spoiler

The tragedy occurred just a few moments ago during a debate about politics occurring among your coworkers. Out of nowhere, the most loathsome person you’ve ever met in your whole life chimed into the argument with a completely valid and irrefutable point. Every attempt to formulate a rebuttal to just the most insufferable asshole on the planet failed miserably because, for the first time ever, that piece of shit’s logic was entirely unassailable.

This is the kind of horrific event you always assume only happens to other people, but never to you.

It’s amazing how life can change in an instant. One moment, everything’s normal, and the next you’re unable to find a single flaw in the intricate and logically sound reasoning of this fucking self-important, endlessly irritating prick. Up until now, everything that’s comes out of that guy’s mouth is pure dogshit, so now that he’s strung together an eloquent and convincing opinion, you’ve been completely blindsided.

In some ways, that’s the worst part of it: You were so used to this unbearable cretin saying nothing but garbage that you had no way to mentally prepare yourself for the day he made an amazing and insightful comment.

While this gut-wrenching calamity has passed, the shock and the sorrow it left in its wake may never truly fade. All you can do now is try to pick up the pieces, move on, and pray that this pompous moron never makes another great point ever again.

 

 

[956 Worldwide 34715]

You seem wound a little tight, @Brian Fantana, if a click hole article affirming that Elise Stefanik is a total piece of garbage who stumbled into being right about calls for genocide has you this upset. You OK out there? 

[Biff Tannen 45691]

3 hours ago, Boss Hogg said:

Young people are fucking stupid, and loud. And taught by idiots like this.  

 

I found this line from that screed fairly interesting:

Quote

If a CEO of one of our companies gave a similar answer, he or she would be toast within the hour. 

 

[Brisketexan 105153]

 

I mean….unless his name was “Elon,” and then we’d praise his amplification of people who literally say “Hitler is my idol” as super duper free speech to be admired. Right, Elise?

[wildcat09 29355]

12 hours ago, Boss Hogg said:

Young people are fucking stupid, and loud. And taught by idiots like this.  

 

The free speech crowd suddenly doesn’t like free speech so much. I wonder what changed.

['stache 21817]

12 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You seem wound a little tight, @Brian Fantana, if a click hole article affirming that Elise Stefanik is a total piece of garbage who stumbled into being right about calls for genocide has you this upset. You OK out there? 

It's a bullshit question and you know it. "Did you enjoy beating your wife last night, yes or no?"

The question is meant to equate all support for Palestinians with calling for genocide of the Jews. Nobody is doing that in this context.

[statsman 5471]

It is a bullshit question. It isn’t advancing the discussion; it’s just trying to highlight that the progressives have an anti-Semitic faction, to score cheap political points. 
 
Which is not something the progressives have had a problem with for 90 years. We know that progressive Woodrow Wilson only hated African-Americans more than Jews; we know that for all the right wing talk, the main difference between Nazi philosophy and 1930s progressives is the willingness to go authoritarian (and, again…Wilson jailed socialist Eugene Debs for speaking against him). 

Edited December 6, 2023 by statsman

[wildcat09 29355]

There is absolutely a problem with anti-Semitism on the left, but it's not remotely similar to right-wing anti-Semitism.  Anti-Semitic leftists are unknown college students, not congressional representatives and senators and other influential political activists with actual influence and often real power.  Anti-Semitism doesn't fundamentally undergird modern progressive ideology the same way it does modern conservative ideology.  The biggest danger leftist anti-Semitism poses to Jews is its ability to push people from the left to the right, because it can help the right gain more political power. The biggest danger right anti-Semitism poses to Jews is another Holocaust.

[hobbes2702 13045]

14 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You seem wound a little tight, @Brian Fantana, if a click hole article affirming that Elise Stefanik is a total piece of garbage who stumbled into being right about calls for genocide has you this upset. You OK out there? 

What was she right about?

['stache 21817]

I don't even think it's anti-Semitism from the "leftists," its anti-Israel. Some of the youths may be too naive to really explain it in that manner or even truly think through the difference between religious Jews and the Israeli government. Show me "leftist" students doing the "Jews will Not Replace Us" chants, I doubt its out there. The rallies and "protests" I've seen usually are about waiving the Palestinian flag and are on the side of Palestinian liberation or self-governance. Show me "leftist" students with swastikas and arm bands, I've only ever seen that from the tiki torch khaki incels, i.e., right wing nuts (which constitute a majority of the party currently). 

[wildcat09 29355]

Just now, 'stache said:

I don't even think it's anti-Semitism from the "leftists," its anti-Israel. Some of the youths may be too naive to really explain it in that manner or even truly think through the difference between religious Jews and the Israeli government. Show me "leftist" students doing the "Jews will Not Replace Us" chants, I doubt its out there. The rallies and "protests" I've seen usually are about waiving the Palestinian flag and are on the side of Palestinian liberation or self-governance. Show me "leftist" students with swastikas and arm bands, I've only ever seen that from the tiki torch khaki incels, i.e., right wing nuts (which constitute a majority of the party currently). 

When you express your "anti-Israel" view by harassing and vandalizing Jewish delis, etc., that's being anti-Semitic.  There has been some of that, though I certainly don't think it's most of the people protesting Israel.  But conflating Jews with the State of Israel is absolutely anti-Semitic and easy for leftists to lapse into.

Of course, it doesn't fucking help when the House is passing resolutions saying anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism and so much of American culture generally pushes that idea.  I mentioned in this thread when the war started, but it's really kind of shocking how much more frank discussion there is in Israeli media right now than in American media. They're the ones that were just brutally attacked and they're the ones in the midst of a war, so one would think they'd be the ones more under the wartime fervor, and many certainly are. But there's plenty of opposition to how Israel is conducting the war and to the expansion of Jewish settlements in Israeli media, while expressing those views here has and would cost many Americans (including many Jews) their jobs.

What really sucks is that I think this climate is likely going to push many people who currently identify as leftists to the far right, because there's no accepted "legitimate" way right now to express those views. 

[Nivek 16943]

The left contains a lot of stupidity and ignorance. It hasnt ever pushed me to become an anti-democratic fascist (republican).

We generally do a better job of marginalizing the nuts. The right is now the party of nut jobs.

['stache 21817]

Fair point on the deli harassment, I chalk that up more to naïveté from dumb students than anti-Semetism. Way different ballpark from the tiki torch crowd.

[956 Worldwide 34715]

54 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

What was she right about?

It’s an easy call to say “calling for a genocide of Jews or any other people is a violation of our code of conduct for students.”