Israel

[Aqua Buddha 14819]

Just checking in to see if Hamas has surrendered and release all hostages since they want the war to end and all....?

[Brian Fantana 6877]

3 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Just checking in to see if Hamas has surrendered and release all hostages since they want the war to end and all....?

Who's making this claim?

[Aqua Buddha 14819]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Who's making this claim?

Good point.  They don't really want the war to end.  Carry on.

[956 Worldwide 35618]

17 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Good point.  They don't really want the war to end.  Carry on.

 

 And don’t forget, this is ALL and ONLY about Palestine! 

[wildcat09 29619]

I'm not going to lie, that shit sucks but I chuckled at "Israel U A Bitch!"

[Brian Fantana 6877]

18 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Good point.  They don't really want the war to end.  Carry on.

I mean you waltzed into the thread like the Trumpanzee dipshits used to come into the Trump threads and post "You guys got him yet?" so I was just curious as to who you were trying to get real good with that.

[Brian Fantana 6877]

43 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

 And don’t forget, this is ALL and ONLY about Palestine! 

It is disgusting to squeeze antisemitic hateful bullshit alongside, like, a real problem (tens of thousands of civilians dead). I hate that shit so much.

I understand that you're posting this only to not so subtly call everyone that criticizes Israel's actions antisemitic (for the 100th time in this thread), but the point still stands. It's not ok.

[Brisketexan 107074]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I understand that you're posting this only to not so subtly call everyone that criticizes Israel's actions antisemitic (for the 100th time in this thread), but the point still stands. It's not ok.

I appreciate your "it's not ok" sentiment. And I agree with you -- not everyone who criticizes Israel's actions is antisemitic or seeks to exterminate the Israeli state and/or the jewish people.

But maybe we can have a mature discussion about a pretty big problem.  There's a lot of daylight between "nobody who supports the Palestinians is genocidal against jews" and "all supporters of the Palestinians are antisemitic and want all jews to die."  Arguing either extreme is missing the point, that point being "what is the reality?"  And the reality is that a disturbingly large number of "Palestinian supporters" ARE antisemitic and call for the eliminiation of Israel and jews worldwide, or something frighteningly close to that.

If you are a member of a group of, say, 1,000 people, and 5 of them are antisemites, that's just an unfortunate function of the fact that a certain percentage of all people are shitheads.  But if you're a member of a group of 1,000 people and 200 of them are antisemites.....there's a big fucking problem.

The fact that it is very difficult to see and hear pro-Palestinian messages without ALSO seeing and hearing antisemitic messages is a big fucking problem.   The intractable problems of both "sides" are why this issue will never, ever, ever, ever come anywhere close to being "solved."  We'll just see them wearing increasingly blacker hats.

Israel: good argument that jews have a right to exist, and even have a right to a "safe state" where they will always have refuge from global antisemitism which regularly rears its ugly head.  BUT....in its zeal to "protect itself," Israel goes over the top in an orgy of violence, and even in times of peace, violently abuses and subjugates Palestinians in the occupied territories - a huge blow to any moral high ground Israel and the jewish people have.

Palestinians: a desperate and impoverished people who have been living largely as refugees for decades, many having lost ancestral homes.  They seek a future where they can live with security, peace, and a chance at prosperity.  BUT...a problematically large percentage of them support the extermination of jews, the complete end of Israel, and cheer on atrocities like the October 7th attacks - a huge blow to any moral high ground the Palestinian people and cause may have.

You have no problem with (correctly) calling out the fact that Israel and its supporters have a real problem - it's not some isolated, unfortunate thing that only a few people believe/do - with violence and oppression against Palestinians, overly destructive military responses, and the like.  But you bristle like hell when there's even a hint of someone suggesting that the Palestinian "side" has a similar problem (it's genocidal shitheels are not aberrations, but rather are a sizable element of the cause).  Open BOTH eyes.  See the full picture, in stereo.  At which point you will realize that it is truly hopeless, and the future is only more death and horrific suffering, for as long as humanity exists.

[Don Johnson 4852]

 

['stache 22152]

22 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Just checking in to see if Hamas has surrendered and release all hostages since they want the war to end and all....?

Pretty disingenuous in my opinion to deny the existence of Palestine as a country and Hamas as a government, then get upset when they don't act like a government. It's because they aren't, they are terrorists, and should be treated as terrorists, not representatives of 2 million people. And just as a reminder, collective punishment is defined as a war crime.

Edited December 13, 2023 by 'stache

[Brian Fantana 6877]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But maybe we can have a mature discussion about a pretty big problem.  There's a lot of daylight between "nobody who supports the Palestinians is genocidal against jews" and "all supporters of the Palestinians are antisemitic and want all jews to die."  Arguing either extreme is missing the point, that point being "what is the reality?"  And the reality is that a disturbingly large number of "Palestinian supporters" ARE antisemitic and call for the eliminiation of Israel and jews worldwide, or something frighteningly close to that.

If you are a member of a group of, say, 1,000 people, and 5 of them are antisemites, that's just an unfortunate function of the fact that a certain percentage of all people are shitheads.  But if you're a member of a group of 1,000 people and 200 of them are antisemites.....there's a big fucking problem.

Yes, clearly it is a problem. The issue I have is, it's not like whatever percentage of Gazans have anti-Jewish sentiment baked into their fucking DNA. It's a learned sentiment that is passed down generation to generation, and it's only fed into by the actions of Israel and Hamas and their respective propaganda. I won't go as far as to say it's not their fault, because of course they bear some level of responsibility, but the deck is pretty stacked against them.

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The fact that it is very difficult to see and hear pro-Palestinian messages without ALSO seeing and hearing antisemitic messages is a big fucking problem.   The intractable problems of both "sides" are why this issue will never, ever, ever, ever come anywhere close to being "solved."  We'll just see them wearing increasingly blacker hats.

Yeah, I mean, it's also not surprising. It sucks, but it was inevitable that hateful, anti-Jewish rhetoric would find its way into pro-Palestinian messaging. Some of it is purposeful, and some is just plain ignorance, but none of it is ok.

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Israel: good argument that jews have a right to exist, and even have a right to a "safe state" where they will always have refuge from global antisemitism which regularly rears its ugly head.  BUT....in its zeal to "protect itself," Israel goes over the top in an orgy of violence, and even in times of peace, violently abuses and subjugates Palestinians in the occupied territories - a huge blow to any moral high ground Israel and the jewish people have.

Palestinians: a desperate and impoverished people who have been living largely as refugees for decades, many having lost ancestral homes.  They seek a future where they can live with security, peace, and a chance at prosperity.  BUT...a problematically large percentage of them support the extermination of jews, the complete end of Israel, and cheer on atrocities like the October 7th attacks - a huge blow to any moral high ground the Palestinian people and cause may have.

All of this is true, of course. I would expand upon it by saying that a desire to wipe out your oppressors is a rational point of view. Obviously, from the outside, X% of Palestinians hoping for the end of Israel and for Jews to be wiped out is an awful thing to see, but it's also understandable when you look at it from a standpoint of a desperate people wanting to be out from under the boot.

This isn't just true for the Palestinians, by the way. They're sold a lie that Jewish people are all evil, despotic freaks and that is why they're being oppressed, and Israelis (and Americans, very importantly) are sold a lie that Palestinians are all bloodthirsty orcs looking to pillage their country and kill them all. That's the only reason Netanyahu & Co. (along with firm backing from the American war machine) can get away with what they're doing.

Of course, the true problem is that some Israelis ARE evil, despotic freaks (meaning the right wing psychos in charge of the government and military), and some Gazans ARE bloodthirsty orcs that just want to kill Jews to punish them for whatever (Hamas), and those fucking people are IN CHARGE OF BOTH SIDES.

28 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You have no problem with (correctly) calling out the fact that Israel and its supporters have a real problem - it's not some isolated, unfortunate thing that only a few people believe/do - with violence and oppression against Palestinians, overly destructive military responses, and the like.  But you bristle like hell when there's even a hint of someone suggesting that the Palestinian "side" has a similar problem (it's genocidal shitheels are not aberrations, but rather are a sizable element of the cause).  Open BOTH eyes.  See the full picture, in stereo.  At which point you will realize that it is truly hopeless, and the future is only more death and horrific suffering, for as long as humanity exists.

I mean, this is just straight up bullshit. I fully acknowledge and am fully aware of the problems on both sides. My problem is when people use the problems on the Palestinian side to justify the actions of Israel, and refuse to turn that same lens on the problems on the Israeli side. If we can't acknowledge that a lot of these problems stem from decades upon decades of ethnic cleansing, then what the fuck are we doing?

[Aqua Buddha 14819]

15 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Pretty disingenuous in my opinion to deny the existence of Palestine as a country and Hamas as a government, then get upset when they don't act like a government. It's because they aren't, they are terrorists, and should be treated as terrorists, not representatives of 2 million people. And just as a reminder, collective punishment is defined as a war crime.

The Palestinians say they want a country (narrator "They don't") and now they're being treated like one.

[Brisketexan 107074]

16 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I fully acknowledge and am fully aware of the problems on both sides. My problem is when people use the problems on the Palestinian side to justify the actions of Israel, and refuse to turn that same lens on the problems on the Israeli side. If we can't acknowledge that a lot of these problems stem from decades upon decades of ethnic cleansing, then what the fuck are we doing?

You say that you are fully aware of the problems on both sides.  Then you lay the responsibility functionally SOLELY at the feet of Israel (I presume that's the side you're accusing of ethnic cleansing).  You came THIS close to getting it....but you just couldn't help running to the "Israel's bad, it's Israel's fault" corner of comfort when it gets down to nut-cutting time.  And THAT tendency - the tendency to, when it comes down to it, award Israel the black hat - is one of the very things that fuels Israel's stance of "why should we give a fuck what other people/countries think they're all against us anyway?"

In other words, everyone keeps providing more than enough fuel to the extremes of both sides to keep on keeping on.  And yes, "everyone" includes you.

['stache 22152]

11 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

The Palestinians say they want a country (narrator "They don't") and now they're being treated like one.

Not sure what the parenthetical is meant to convey other than justifying the extermination of 2 million people, but the fact is they had a country, until the western powers told them they didn't. That tends to cause hostility towards those who they are told are superior to them and have the right to occupy their former territory.

[956 Worldwide 35618]

18 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Not sure what the parenthetical is meant to convey other than justifying the extermination of 2 million people, but the fact is they had a country, until the western powers told them they didn't. That tends to cause hostility towards those who they are told are superior to them and have the right to occupy their former territory.

I mean, this is factually untrue. There has never, ever, ever been a country or nation called Palestine with self-rule in the Levant. The name itself is a creation of the Roman Empire and for centuries before World War I they were ruled by Turks and their figureheads. There’s been a lot of whitewashing, but the actual residents of “Palestine” pretty much hatred the Ottomans and kept starting campaigns against them. 
 

Let’s at least get the history right. The closest the Palestinians have ever been to having a nation called “Palestine” with self-rule and determination was during the derailed peace talks with Israel. 

[Brian Fantana 6877]

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You say that you are fully aware of the problems on both sides.  Then you lay the responsibility functionally SOLELY at the feet of Israel (I presume that's the side you're accusing of ethnic cleansing).  You came THIS close to getting it....but you just couldn't help running to the "Israel's bad, it's Israel's fault" corner of comfort when it gets down to nut-cutting time.  And THAT tendency - the tendency to, when it comes down to it, award Israel the black hat - is one of the very things that fuels Israel's stance of "why should we give a fuck what other people/countries think they're all against us anyway?"

In other words, everyone keeps providing more than enough fuel to the extremes of both sides to keep on keeping on.  And yes, "everyone" includes you.

I am not laying the responsibility solely at the feet of Israel. As I have said many times, the power imbalance simply favors them by many orders of magnitude, and there can be no possible peace unless they take certain steps. These are simply facts that cannot be ignored when having these discussions. That is not the same thing as placing all responsibility on them. Obviously there is also plenty of responsibility on the part of Hamas and the percentage of Gazans that support them. Those people have to change, too.

['stache 22152]

4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I mean, this is factually untrue. There has never, ever, ever been a country or nation called Palestine with self-rule in the Levant. The name itself is a creation of the Roman Empire and for centuries before World War I they were ruled by Turks and their figureheads. There’s been a lot of whitewashing, but the actual residents of “Palestine” pretty much hatred the Ottomans and kept starting campaigns against them. 
 

Let’s at least get the history right. The closest the Palestinians have ever been to having a nation called “Palestine” with self-rule and determination was during the derailed peace talks with Israel. 

Yes, I know, I was simplifying for purposes of a message board post, but there was a measure of self-determination among the various groups during part of the Ottoman Empire, including who we call Palestinians today. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure you're last statement is pretty heavily whitewashed. Israel has never negotiated in good faith to provide Palestinians with legitimate self-rule or self-determination. It's been discussed ad nauseum and you've made clear your position on justification for Israel's actions currently and since it's creation and I have to get back to work, so I'll bow out again.  

[hobbes2702 13520]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

The fact that it is very difficult to see and hear pro-Palestinian messages without ALSO seeing and hearing antisemitic messages is a big fucking problem

It’s not difficult to see and hear pro Palestine messages without antisemitism. It’s hard in this thread because certain posters are doing their best to conflate the two.

Thats not saying there isn’t a problem, there is and it needs to be shouted down. But saying it’s hard to find pro Palestine/non antisemitism is just not true.

[hobbes2702 13520]

55 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

The Palestinians say they want a country (narrator "They don't") and now they're being treated like one.

You can fuck right off. Absolutely worthless contributions that only seek to breed hate.

[956 Worldwide 35618]

15 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Yes, I know, I was simplifying for purposes of a message board post, but there was a measure of self-determination among the various groups during part of the Ottoman Empire, including who we call Palestinians today. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure you're last statement is pretty heavily whitewashed. Israel has never negotiated in good faith to provide Palestinians with legitimate self-rule or self-determination. It's been discussed ad nauseum and you've made clear your position on justification for Israel's actions currently and since it's creation and I have to get back to work, so I'll bow out again.  

A “measure of self-determination” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, especially considering that Arabs by all accounts hated living under Ottoman rule. 
 

One might also point out that there was more than a measure of self-determination in 2006 with elections that brought Hamas to power. 

[bolverk 30400]

For those of us who are more pro-Palestinian in terms of a two-state solution but are totally not on board with any of the anti-Semitic shit, this is a good Op-Ed. 

'Good Jew' vs. 'Bad Jew': Why pro-Palestine Protests Have a Problem

[Brisketexan 107074]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

It’s not difficult to see and hear pro Palestine messages without antisemitism. It’s hard in this thread because certain posters are doing their best to conflate the two.

Thats not saying there isn’t a problem, there is and it needs to be shouted down. But saying it’s hard to find pro Palestine/non antisemitism is just not true.

I wish you were right.  But you are not.  See the link bolverk posted:

41 minutes ago, bolverk said:

For those of us who are more pro-Palestinian in terms of a two-state solution but are totally not on board with any of the anti-Semitic shit, this is a good Op-Ed. 

'Good Jew' vs. 'Bad Jew': Why pro-Palestine Protests Have a Problem

Antisemitism and what amount to calls for complete erasure of the jewish state and attacks on jews worldwide are actually very, very easy to find in the "pro-Palestinian" cause.  These voices, slogans, signs, etc., are not being plucked out of obscurity.  They are found quite close to the mainstream of Palestinian sentiment.

And again, Israel has its own problem in that regard, and it's quite plain: their CURRENT GOVERNMENT is right wing genocidal fucksticks.  We don't have any problem pointing out what a huge and crippling issue that is if we are wanting a peaceful resolution granting the maximum dignity and safety to all involved.  I just find the intellectually dishonest dismissiveness of the deep and wide strain of antisemitism and zero-compromise calls for the destruction of Israel and jews running through the pro-Palestinian movement really problematic.

I WANT the pro-Palestinian cause to get traction.  I WANT a solution that grants peace and dignity to Palestinians.  We can't get there until 1) the Palestinian cause does not deeply entwine itself with genocidal anti-semitism, and 2) Israel does not take a maximalist anti-Palestinian approach that eats up all land that could possibly be a Palestinian state as part of a future resolution, and doesn't treat Palestinian civilians as disposable vermin whose lives have no value.  BOTH of those things need to happen.  And item 1) remains a blind spot for way too many.

[bolverk 30400]

32 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I wish you were right.  But you are not.  See the link bolverk posted:

Antisemitism and what amount to calls for complete erasure of the jewish state and attacks on jews worldwide are actually very, very easy to find in the "pro-Palestinian" cause.  These voices, slogans, signs, etc., are not being plucked out of obscurity.  They are found quite close to the mainstream of Palestinian sentiment.

And again, Israel has its own problem in that regard, and it's quite plain: their CURRENT GOVERNMENT is right wing genocidal fucksticks.  We don't have any problem pointing out what a huge and crippling issue that is if we are wanting a peaceful resolution granting the maximum dignity and safety to all involved.  I just find the intellectually dishonest dismissiveness of the deep and wide strain of antisemitism and zero-compromise calls for the destruction of Israel and jews running through the pro-Palestinian movement really problematic.

I WANT the pro-Palestinian cause to get traction.  I WANT a solution that grants peace and dignity to Palestinians.  We can't get there until 1) the Palestinian cause does not deeply entwine itself with genocidal anti-semitism, and 2) Israel does not take a maximalist anti-Palestinian approach that eats up all land that could possibly be a Palestinian state as part of a future resolution, and doesn't treat Palestinian civilians as disposable vermin whose lives have no value.  BOTH of those things need to happen.  And item 1) remains a blind spot for way too many.

I 100% agree with you but feel like you didn't read (or carefully read) the Op-Ed. Otherwise, I feel like you would've responded differently.

The author explains how anti-Zionism can quickly turn into anti-Semitism. He says he'd normally support the ongoing protests because he opposes the Israeli government's policies in the occupied territories, but many of the protesters are taking it way too far by saying that's not enough. He must also be opposed to Israel in its entirety, which he cannot do.

There's more to the Op-Ed, but I'm not going to summarize the whole thing because I wouldn't be able to do it justice. I found it a worthwhile read and agreed with most of what he wrote. For whatever reason, it struck a chord and felt like a fresh perspective.

Edited December 13, 2023 by bolverk

[Brisketexan 107074]

3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I 100% agree with you but feel like you didn't read (or carefully read) the Op-Ed. Otherwise, I feel like you would've responded differently.

The author explains how anti-Zionism can quickly turn into anti-Semitism. He says he'd normally support the ongoing protests because he opposes the Israeli government's policies in the occupied territories, but many of the protesters are taking it way too far by saying that's not enough. He must also be opposed to Israel in its entirety, which he cannot do.

There's more to the Op-Ed, but I'm not going to summarize the whole thing because I wouldn't be able to do it justice. I found it a worthwhile read and agreed with most of what he wrote. For whatever reason, it struck a chord and felt like a fresh perspective.

I actually did read the whole thing.  He had a really good explanation and take on "zionism" as a broad concept, I thought.  But he ended up at the point that I'm sure seeing from the pro-Palestinian side: a sizable percentage (sizable enough to drive a significant portion of the conversation) is no-compromise, Israel is bad and must be ended and all jews are the enemy.  Voices of moderation get drowned out by the voices of extremism, both because each such voice is pretty loud, and because there are many more such voices than there should be.  As I said in one of my earlier posts, if the genocidal voices were 1 or even 5 in 100, then they would hardly be heard.  When they are 20 in 100, or more....they dominate the conversation.

[Anastasis 23724]

What is the N per 100 of extremist, racist, and/or genocidal voices in the Israeli government at the moment? 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23724]

What is that N among the West Bank settlers that are backed by the IDF?

[956 Worldwide 35618]

28 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I 100% agree with you but feel like you didn't read (or carefully read) the Op-Ed. Otherwise, I feel like you would've responded differently.

The author explains how anti-Zionism can quickly turn into anti-Semitism. He says he'd normally support the ongoing protests because he opposes the Israeli government's policies in the occupied territories, but many of the protesters are taking it way too far by saying that's not enough. He must also be opposed to Israel in its entirety, which he cannot do.

There's more to the Op-Ed, but I'm not going to summarize the whole thing because I wouldn't be able to do it justice. I found it a worthwhile read and agreed with most of what he wrote. For whatever reason, it struck a chord and felt like a fresh perspective.

For me the core of the op-ed is here:

Quote

Let's face it. For Jews around the world, Zionism, or the love of the homeland, can mean all-out support for Israel and its colonial hold over the West Bank and East Jerusalem and its ongoing blockade of Gaza, or it can mean helping fellow impoverished Jews in need of help in poor neighborhoods of Israel. It can mean supporting the IDF at all costs, or it can mean protesting the IDF for their crimes as a way to correct the injustices of the Jewish state.

Zionism, in essence, is the bond Jews have with Israel, whatever that might mean. It is an identity intricately linked to religion. For many Jews worldwide, it is also a family connection. Even among those who declare themselves anti-Zionists, such as among some ultra-Orthodox Jews, there is a sense of latent Zionism, even if it is never expressed as such.

 

All of this might be uncomfortable for many people in the pro-Palestine camp, who try to neatly divide Jews into "good Jews," or the righteous few, against the "bad Jews," who are "genocide supporters." There is no longer a middle ground, with the term Zionist being used to show an equivalence to the term "Nazi," the culmination of all evils.

Thus, in their fervor, many within the pro-Palestine camp refuse to use the word Israel, but rather "Zionist" state; and they do not use the term "Israelis," but rather "Zionist colonizers," or "Zionist settlers." For them, it did not matter that the Israelis attacked on October 7th were not settlers in the West Bank; all Israelis are fair game.

“Zionist,” even here on this forum is mostly meaningless and is used to conflate people who believe that Israel has a right to exist as a state in with people who support West Bank settlers and the full control of Jerusalem with no rights or space for Palestinians at all. Anyone who believes Israel gets to exist is a Zionist and then must be opposed. You are not allowed to point out how calling for the elimination of the world’s only Jewish state, and no other state in the world, is at least implicitly if not explicitly anti-Semitic. 
 

Same deal with “from the River to the Sea,” or “Globalize the Intifada.” Almost all will concede that these slogans are used with genocidal intent but then many will place the onus on Jews to parse through context to determine when it’s genocidal or not.  Instead of just distancing themselves from it. 
 

 

[Brisketexan 107074]

Just now, Anastasis said:

What is the N per 100 of extremist, racist, and/or genocidal voices in the Israeli government at the moment? 

Way too fucking high - just Likud and the most extremist parties make up like 1/3 of the Knesset.  The Israeli government is as shitty as it's been in a long, long time.  The fucking Minister of National Security is an openly genocidal piece of shit, in particular.

Perhaps you missed my consistent and pointed criticism about the current Israeli position above.  That position is one of the two key reasons why peace is impossible.  My only point in response to the soft-sellers above is that the other key reason why peace is impossible is that genocidal antisemitism has an outsize seat at the Palestinian side of the table.  When you have two sides where each is carrying a deep and wide strain of genocidal hatred for the other.....peace is never, ever, ever going to be in the offing.*

* Unless and until one side finally overwhelms the other and completes the genocide.  And even that "victory," no matter who gains it, would be deceptive, as it would not actually secure any lasting peace and security.  Thus, my complete and total pessimism.  Even if the WORST thing happened....it still wouldn't gain anyone anything.

[Anastasis 23724]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

When you have two sides where each is carrying a deep and wide strain of genocidal hatred for the other.....peace is never, ever, ever going to be in the offing.

And especially when we send one of the two sides a constant stream of C130s full of bombs to drop on the other side, and stand alone in the security council vetoing calls for a ceasefire. We cannot control the Israelis, we cannot control the Palestinians. What we can control is our actions as facilitators of the occupation. That whole rules-based international order thing that I hear so much about, seems like it might be relevant.  

[956 Worldwide 35618]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Way too fucking high - just Likud and the most extremist parties make up like 1/3 of the Knesset.  The Israeli government is as shitty as it's been in a long, long time.  The fucking Minister of National Security is an openly genocidal piece of shit, in particular.

Perhaps you missed my consistent and pointed criticism about the current Israeli position above.  That position is one of the two key reasons why peace is impossible.  My only point in response to the soft-sellers above is that the other key reason why peace is impossible is that genocidal antisemitism has an outsize seat at the Palestinian side of the table.  When you have two sides where each is carrying a deep and wide strain of genocidal hatred for the other.....peace is never, ever, ever going to be in the offing.*

* Unless and until one side finally overwhelms the other and completes the genocide.  And even that "victory," no matter who gains it, would be deceptive, as it would not actually secure any lasting peace and security.  Thus, my complete and total pessimism.  Even if the WORST thing happened....it still wouldn't gain anyone anything.

Why even engage?

Quote

Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation. From a logicaland argumentative point of view it is considered a variant of the tu-quoque pattern (Latin 'you too', term for a counter-accusation), which is a subtype of the ad-hominem argument.[

 

[Brisketexan 107074]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

What we can control is our actions as facilitators of the occupation.

Your verbiage is telling.

Are the multiple states arming and funding Hamas going to stop THEIR actions?  Nope?  Cool.  Cool.

Not that I don't think that we shouldn't use our hefty leverage to rein in Israel's current "response," which is using the concept of a legitimate response to a brutal attack as cover for genocidal retribution.  But again.....the demanded course of action always comes down to "fuck Israel."  Which continues to make my point.  

[Brisketexan 107074]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Why even engage?

 

I actually engage because I genuinely do see that a huge part of this intractable problem is the horrifically genocidal and brutal approach taken by current Israeli leadership, and the not-insignificant populist strain within Israel that agrees with them.  There can be no peace while a sizable percentage of Palestinians want to wipe Israel and jews off the earth.  LIKEWISE, there can be no peace while Israeli leadership and a sizable percentage of Israelis want to kill or otherwise remove every Palestinian from the levant.

Both those things are true, and it's important to acknowledge that both are true.

[Anastasis 23724]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Your verbiage is telling.

Are the multiple states arming and funding Hamas going to stop THEIR actions?  Nope?  Cool.  Cool. 

We also can't control Iran, the state of which is a fucking shitshow of ours and the British own making. Sounds kinda familiar right.

The most telling thing in my verbiage is the truth. We are arming, facilitating, and running cover for an apartheid state that is carrying out a brutal and illegal occupation. That's not on Israel, that is not on Palestine, that is not on Iran, or anyone else. That is on us. "We the people", right. 
 

[Brisketexan 107074]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

We also can't control Iran, the state of which is a fucking shitshow of ours and the British own making. Sounds kinda familiar right.

The most telling thing in my verbiage is the truth. We are arming, facilitating, and running cover for an apartheid state that is carrying out a brutal and illegal occupation. That's not on Israel, that is not on Palestine, that is not on Iran, or anyone else. That is on us. "We the people", right. 
 

 

You couldn't have made my point any better even if you tried.

"ISRAEL BAD!"  From the river to the sea indeed.

[Anastasis 23724]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"ISRAEL BAD!"  From the river to the sea indeed.

Basic bullshit. I was told that there was a rules-based international order. If only some of the proponents of that position weren't so self-deluding.  

[Anastasis 23724]

White phosphorus?  Wonder where they got that from. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Anastasis

[DDD Dad 14675]

49 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Basic bullshit. I was told that there was a rules-based international order. If only some of the proponents of that position weren't so self-deluding.  

Apartheid State is the new "FISA court" dog whistle for Ana.

[Brian Fantana 6877]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

 

You couldn't have made my point any better even if you tried.

"ISRAEL BAD!"  From the river to the sea indeed.

I mean...that is literally what is happening. We are strongly and publicly endorsing, with words, money, and weapons of war, everything Israel does, including actual war crimes. Did I miss something? Is this somehow in dispute?

[Brian Fantana 6877]

Not to mention the Western media machine that gives them full-throated cover and virtuality no pushback whatsoever, for any reason?

[Anastasis 23724]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I mean...that is literally what is happening.

Well, you see, it's a lot easier to just pound out "ISRAEL BAD!, rIvEr To tHe SeA" than it is to engage in some critical self-reflection on American foreign policy and how it measures up with the promotion of American ideals. We undermine ourselves and wonder why people don't take us seriously.  

[Brian Fantana 6877]

To be clear, I'm not necessarily against providing aid to Israel, especially support for the many families affected by the massacre on Oct. 7th, but we can do these things (provide moral and financial/military support) while still urging them to act with more restraint and without publicly supporting ethnic cleansing, but we make it a point to do the latter, at least, as much as possible it seems.

We make it a point not to punish GOP lawmakers that call for the extermination of all Palestinians in Gaza. We make sure that the Western media machine keeps its crosshairs firmly on Gazans and never on the broken leadership of Israel. It's a neverending cycle of collective punishment that we endorse with our full chests.

[Brisketexan 107074]

20 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

To be clear, I'm not necessarily against providing aid to Israel, especially support for the many families affected by the massacre on Oct. 7th, but we can do these things (provide moral and financial/military support) while still urging them to act with more restraint and without publicly supporting ethnic cleansing, but we make it a point to do the latter, at least, as much as possible it seems.

We make it a point not to punish GOP lawmakers that call for the extermination of all Palestinians in Gaza. We make sure that the Western media machine keeps its crosshairs firmly on Gazans and never on the broken leadership of Israel. It's a neverending cycle of collective punishment that we endorse with our full chests.

Would it surprise you to find out that I agree with everything in this post?  I hope it doesn't surprise you.  We can and should support Israel as you said....but we ALSO should use the great leverage we have to exert meaningful pressure on Israel to act with restraint and to cut out the fucking ethnic cleansing bullshit.  Our national dialogue -- global dialogue, actually -- on this topic is hopelessly broken.  In the US, the only politically permissible stance is "I support and stand with Israel," with little room for nuance or accountability.  Which attracts an opposing viewpoint which draws heavily from the worst global oppositional rhetoric and thinking (rife with antisemitism and calls for extermination of jews and the state of Israel).  The US (and the rest of humanity) is never going to make any progress so long as those are the dominant strains in the conversation.

And, by the way, I hold out no hope that even changing paths would help.  If the US successfully exerted pressure to get Israel to back the fuck off militarily in Gaza, and to quit with the absolute asshattery ongoing in the West Bank (e.g., outright ethnic cleansing by settlers and state-affiliated actors).....do you think it would make the genocidal elements on the Palestinian side back down?  Fuck no.  And we already know that the Palestinians being relatively subdued doesn't do shit to make the genocidal elements of Israeli society and government behave any better.  So, fuck it.  All that any of us is doing here is yelling about principles that don't mean a single motherfucking thing.  The only certainty is a lot more blood.  If we quit supplying Israel with arms and Iran quits supplying Hamas and Hezbollah with arms....it won't make a shit.  They'll kill each other by the thousands with sticks and swords.  There is no hope for the levant.  So fuck it all.

[956 Worldwide 35618]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Your verbiage is telling.

Are the multiple states arming and funding Hamas going to stop THEIR actions?  Nope?  Cool.  Cool.

Not that I don't think that we shouldn't use our hefty leverage to rein in Israel's current "response," which is using the concept of a legitimate response to a brutal attack as cover for genocidal retribution.  But again.....the demanded course of action always comes down to "fuck Israel."  Which continues to make my point.  

You can only engage if *cough* “both sides” are willing to engage in self-examination and “what about” is the most solid tell that this will not happen. 

I’m likely the most rabid “Zionist” in this thread and I’ve said multiple times that:

1. Netanyahu sucks.

2. West Bank settlement has to be rolled back and violators held responsible 

3. Palestinians need a state 

And yet that’s not enough because the truth is there is no appetite to compromise on U.S. based advocates for the Palestinian side; this isn’t about Palestine it’s just a proxy argument for our farthest left and right and contrarians to self-flagellate and reassure themselves that America is always the bad guy; anything that doesn’t fall into line of the oppressed vs. oppressor narrative simply gets subsumed in shouting. 
 

Just look a few posts up.  We’re banging on about the failure of the U.S. to do anything. A few weeks ago we literally strongarmed Israel into a de facto ceasefire.  A ceasefire that was broken BY HAMAS when they refused to just let a few more women hostages go and decided to pop off a few more rockets. That’s all they had to do. Stop raping a bit, let some women go home. 
 

Literally the lowest bar, this cease-fire would be in place right now if the government of Gaza would let go of the women they are raping. And yet, it’s all our fault. 
 

Just make the argument— “Hamas gets to rape, Hamas gets to murder, Hamas gets to steal aid, Hamas gets to control international aid. And Israel should let them. Because Palestinians are oppressed.” 

Edited December 13, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[Anastasis 23724]

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There is no hope for the levant.

But maybe it will all get better if we just keep supplying and flying bombs into the region. /GeneralDynamics

Edited December 13, 2023 by Anastasis

[Brisketexan 107074]

Just now, Anastasis said:

But maybe it will all get better if we just keep supplying and flying bombs into the region. 

It will get better for the side that you want to win.  Resulting in the extermination of the Israeli state, and the slaughter of jews.  So, there's that upside.

[Anastasis 23724]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It will get better for the side that you want to win.  Resulting in the extermination of the Israeli state, and the slaughter of jews.  So, there's that upside.

You can take the brisket out of the GOP, but you can't take that good old fashioned jingo neo-con out of the brisket. 

[Brisketexan 107074]

Just now, Anastasis said:

You can take the brisket out of the GOP, but you can't take that good old fashioned jingo neo-con out of the brisket. 

Yeah.  Silly me.  Thinking that there's a significant movement and impetus among Palestinians and their sympathizers to exterminate the jewish state and the jewish people.  Don't know where I got that idea.  It must have been from "Dick Cheney Monthly," and not.....every fucking piece of written history about the region from the past 75 years.  That must be it.

[Brian Fantana 6877]

49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Would it surprise you to find out that I agree with everything in this post?  I hope it doesn't surprise you. 

Nah. We good.

You have to understand I have a fair amount of extended family in the region, on both sides, and it's hell on my psyche so if I lash out at you on this topic, it's not personal.

[Anastasis 23724]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.  Silly me.  Thinking that there's a significant movement and impetus among Israelis and their sympathizers to illegally occupy, subjugate, terrorize, and dehumanize the palestinian people.  Don't know where I got that idea.  It must have been from "Dick Cheney Monthly," and not.....every fucking piece of written history about the region from the past 75 years.  That must be it.

 

FIFY. We can do this all fucking day. We both know that this is a deep and fundamentally broken geopolitical situation. You are just happy to keep on with the status quo sending C130s full of bombs paid for by American taxpayers to one side so that side can do the slow and just-acceptable-enough-to-you genocide thing to the other. This is the decency of the rules based international order and the Pax Americana afterall at stake. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Anastasis

[Brisketexan 107074]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

FIFY. We can do this all fucking day. We both know that this is a deep and fundamentally broken geopolitical situation. You are just happy to keep on with the status quo sending C130s full of bombs paid for by American taxpayers to one side so that side can do the slow and just-acceptable-enough-to-you genocide thing to the other. This is the decency of the rules based international order and the Pax Americana afterall at stake. 

And you're just happy to push for measures that will please Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, and the usual crew you somehow always tend to side with.  Invariably.  Every.  Single.  Fucking.  Time.  With zero deviation from the course.  Yeah.  We can indeed do this all fucking day.