Israel

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Somehow, I don’t think you’d be on board with telling Arab or Muslim Americans not to make the war in Gaza all about them and then claiming Islamophobia. 

Actually, it would be great if they didn't do that because it's just as unhelpful and stupid. I'd tell Cenk Uygur to shut the fuck up just as quickly as I'd tell Amy Schumer.

I know you're just looking for another gotcha, sorry to disappoint. You're welcome to go back to the DT thread and salivate over how many Palestinians have died so far to salve your ego.

[statsman 5457]

1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

I mean, sure. But do you see Christians killing muslims and screaming "God is Great!!!!WHARRRGABRBBBBBLLL" No. Because their definition of a "good person" in simply different than ours.

The Qur’an depicts the Jews as inveterately evil and bent on destroying the well-being of the Muslims. They are the strongest of all people in enmity toward the Muslims (5:82); they fabricate things and falsely ascribe them to Allah (2:79; 3:75, 3:181); they claim that Allah’s power is limited (5:64); they love to listen to lies (5:41); they disobey Allah and never observe his commands (5:13). They are disputing and quarreling (2:247); hiding the truth and misleading people (3:78); staging rebellion against the prophets and rejecting their guidance (2:55); being hypocritical (2:14, 2:44); giving preference to their own interests over the teachings of Muhammad (2:87); wishing evil for people and trying to mislead them (2:109); feeling pain when others are happy or fortunate (3:120); being arrogant about their being Allah’s beloved people (5:18); devouring people’s wealth by subterfuge (4:161); slandering the true religion and being cursed by Allah (4:46); killing the prophets (2:61); being merciless and heartless (2:74); never keeping their promises or fulfilling their words (2:100); being unrestrained in committing sins (5:79); being cowardly (59:13-14); being miserly (4:53); being transformed into apes and pigs for breaking the Sabbath (2:63-65; 5:59-60; 7:166); and more. They are under Allah’s curse (9:30), and Muslims should wage war against them and subjugate them under Islamic hegemony (9:29).

Dude. 
You don’t know any Muslims, do you? 
 
I recommend you get out more, outside your circle. 
 
 I don’t know about the Koran, but I do know about the Bible. I taught an adult Sunday School class I called “Least Loved Stories From the Bible”, looking at difficult passages, and one was 1 Samuel 16, where that prophet of God basically calls for ethnic cleansing (genocide, really) of the Amalekites. It’s horrific, and I think it horrified the Jewish rabbis of the 7th century BC, who felt compelled to include Ruth (the story of how a Moabite woman- functionally, akin to a modern Palestinian-became the grandmother of Israel’s greatest king) in the canon. 
 
I don’t think your Koranic interpretations are helpful or illuminative. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Hey, he just saw a great opportunity to be islamophobic with some plausible deniability baked in, let him cook, I guess. Some posters here will love it.

[RomaVicta 29907]

6 hours ago, sheeeit said:

This is absolute speculative bullshit. 

Always a powerful argument. Also, a statement which you follow with dreams of dirty bombs being smuggled into Israel. 

My observations and opinions are based on things that are clearly obvious right now.

Israel has overwhelming advantage over entities like Hamas.

Israel is not on the verge or near the verge of being destroyed.

Your last paragraph is emotional drivel speculating about me and others.

I'm not the only "not thinking" about what he writes.

Have a good weekend.

[Jatrain 288]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

Dude. 
You don’t know any Muslims, do you? 
 
I recommend you get out more, outside your circle. 
 
 I don’t know about the Koran, but I do know about the Bible. I taught an adult Sunday School class I called “Least Loved Stories From the Bible”, looking at difficult passages, and one was 1 Samuel 16, where that prophet of God basically calls for ethnic cleansing (genocide, really) of the Amalekites. It’s horrific, and I think it horrified the Jewish rabbis of the 7th century BC, who felt compelled to include Ruth (the story of how a Moabite woman- functionally, akin to a modern Palestinian-became the grandmother of Israel’s greatest king) in the canon. 
 
I don’t think your Koranic interpretations are helpful or illuminative. 

“You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’,"

— Bibi Netanyahu, 10/29/23, using the Bible (Torah) to justify the killing of not only Hamas, but of the entire Palestinian people. 

 

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

The cults comparing made up stories to assign blame is on point 

[Thetexashammer 1062]

5 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Hey, he just saw a great opportunity to be islamophobic with some plausible deniability baked in, let him cook, I guess. Some posters here will love it.

Sam Harris | Home of the Making Sense Podcast

Quote

In recent days, crowds of thousands have gathered throughout the Muslim world—burning European embassies, issuing threats, and even taking hostages—in protest over 12 cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad that were first published in a Danish newspaper last September.  The problem is not merely that the cartoons were mildly derogatory.  The furor primarily erupted over the fact that the Prophet had been depicted at all. Many Muslims consider any physical rendering of Muhammad to be an act of idolatry.  And idolatry is punishable by death. Criticism of Muhammad or his teaching—which was also implicit in the cartoons—is considered blasphemy.  As it turns out, blasphemy is also punishable by death.  So pious Muslims have two reasons to “not accept less than a severing of the heads of those responsible,” as was recently elucidated by a preacher at the Al Omari mosque in Gaza.

The religious hysteria has not been confined to the “extremists” of the Muslim world. Seventeen Arab governments issued a joint statement of protest, calling for the punishment of those responsible. Pakistan’s parliament unanimously condemned the drawings as a “vicious, outrageous and provocative campaign” that has “hurt the faith and feelings of Muslims all over the world.” Turkey’s prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, while still seeking his nation’s entry into the European Union, nevertheless declared that the cartoons were an attack upon the “spiritual values” of Muslims everywhere. The leader of Lebanon’s governing Hezbollah faction observed that the whole episode could have been avoided if only the novelist Salman Rushdie had been properly slaughtered for writing “The Satanic Verses.”

Let us take stock of the moral intuitions now on display in the House of Islam: On Aug. 17, 2005, an Iraqi insurgent helped collect the injured survivors of a car bombing, rushed them to a hospital and then detonated his own bomb, murdering those who were already mortally wounded as well as the doctors and nurses struggling to save their lives.  Where were the cries of outrage from the Muslim world? Religious sociopaths kill innocents by the hundreds in the capitols of Europe, blow up the offices of the U.N. and the Red Cross, purposefully annihilate crowds of children gathered to collect candy from U.S. soldiers on the streets of Baghdad, kidnap journalists, behead them, and the videos of their butchery become the most popular form of pornography in the Muslim world, and no one utters a word of protest because these atrocities have been perpetrated “in defense of Islam.” But draw a picture of the Prophet, and pious mobs convulse with pious rage. One could hardly ask for a better example of religious dogmatism and its pseudo-morality eclipsing basic, human goodness.

It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims.  Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world.

As Sam has said, Islam is the mother of all bad ideas. Their antisemitism and antichristianism is dogmatic, it is in the text.

 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

 

Keep fucking that chicken

[Aqua Buddha 14595]

[hobbes2702 13032]

11 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Sam Harris | Home of the Making Sense Podcast

As Sam has said, Islam is the mother of all bad ideas. Their antisemitism and antichristianism is dogmatic, it is in the text.

 

Go away

[bolverk 29671]

Two stories up right now that ought to make anyone question the tactics used by the IDF in this conflict, where more than 15,000 civilians, including thousands of children, have already been killed.

1. Three Israeli hostages carrying a white flag were shot and killed by the IDF.

On Friday, the three hostages emerged, shirtless, from a building tens of yards away from the Israeli soldiers, bearing a stick with a white cloth, the military said in a preliminary investigation. One of the soldiers, believing they posed a threat, opened fire on the three hostages, killing two of them and wounding the third, the early investigation found.

The third fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was shot and killed, the military statement said.

In a briefing with reporters, an Israeli military official called the incident a violation of the military’s regulations. The hostages may have escaped or been abandoned by their captors, the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity under military protocol.

2.  Yet another journalist was killed. That makes 64 who've been killed so far.

An Al Jazeera cameraman was killed and the network’s Arabic-language Gaza Strip bureau chief was wounded on Friday during an attack in southern Gaza, Al Jazeera said, the latest in a long string of journalist casualties in the war.

The cameraman, Samer Abu Daqqa, and Wael al-Dahdouh, the bureau chief, were covering the aftermath of airstrikes at a U.N. school-turned-shelter in Khan Younis when both were wounded, the network said. Mr. al-Dahdouh told Al Jazeera that he was able to walk out of the area and seek help, but Mr. Abu Daqqa died from his injuries, the network said.

In October, Mr. al-Dahdouh’s wife, son, daughter and infant grandson were killed at the Nuseirat refugee camp in central Gaza, where they had been sheltering.

*****

According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, a nonprofit organization based in New York that defends the rights of journalists around the world, 64 journalists and media workers have been killed in Gaza since the war between Israel and Hamas began on Oct. 7, more than in any other similar period of time since the group started collecting data in 1992.

The C.P.J. defines journalists as “people who cover news or comment on public affairs through print, digital, broadcast media and other means,” and media workers as essential support staff, including translators, drivers and fixers. The group has said it does not include people in its tallies if there is evidence of their “acting on behalf of militant groups or serving in a military capacity at the time of their deaths.”

*****

International watchdogs have said that an Israeli strike on Oct. 13 that killed a videographer for the Reuters news agency and injured six other journalists was a targeted attack carried out by the Israeli military. Earlier this year, a C.P.J. report found that no one had been held accountable for nearly 20 journalists killed by the Israeli military since 2001.

[bolverk 29671]

It sounds like the administration has about had enough of Bibi's bullshit. As of now, 85% of Gaza's 2 million people, suffering from disease and hunger, have been displaced while also being bombed in the south where they were told to go. Meanwhile, the administration is looking into the reports of the IDF's alleged use of white phosphorus. 

Biden Warns Israel It Is ‘Losing Support’ Over War

Mr. Biden delivered the blunt assessment of America’s closest ally in the Middle East during a fund-raiser in Washington, where he described Mr. Netanyahu as the leader of “the most conservative government in Israel’s history,” which doesn’t “want anything remotely approaching a two-state solution” to the country’s long-running dispute with Palestinians.

The president said that Israel had support from Europe and much of the world as well as the United States, but he added that “they’re starting to lose that support by the indiscriminate bombing that takes place.”

The president’s remarks came hours after Mr. Netanyahu pledged to defy weeks of American pressure to put the Palestinian Authority in charge of Gaza once the fighting ends. Mr. Netanyahu ruled out any role there for the authority, which now governs Palestinian society in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

*****

In his remarks at the fund-raiser, Mr. Biden pledged to continue that support for Israel’s effort to protect itself, saying that “we’re not going to do a damn thing other than protect Israel in the process. Not a single thing.”

“Without Israel as a free-standing state, not a Jew in the world is safe,” he added.

But he also described his response to Mr. Netanyahu’s private assertion that the United States had “carpet-bombed” Germany and dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.

“I said, ‘Yeah, that’s why all these institutions were set up after World War II, to see to it that it didn’t happen again,’” Mr. Biden told the donors at the event.

*****

Nearly two months of aerial bombardment by Israel and a continuing ground war have leveled much of Gaza City in the northern part of the tiny enclave, which is home to nearly two million Palestinians. More than 15,000 people, including several thousand children, have been killed in Gaza during the fighting, according to the territory’s health authorities.

The United Nations says that more than 85 percent of the population has been displaced, with some aid organizations reporting rampant disease and widespread hunger.

Mr. Netanyahu says his government is determined to destroy Hamas’s ability to threaten Israel’s population, and has repeatedly warned Palestinians to move south. Some locations in the south of Gaza have also been bombed, drawing criticism from humanitarian organizations.

*****

But on Monday, administration officials said they were looking into reports that Israel’s military had deployed white phosphorus supplied by the United States along the border with Lebanon, in violation of international law.

That allegation, made in reports by Amnesty International and The Washington Post, represented another potential disagreement between the two countries about Israel’s conduct. Israel’s military on Monday said it complies with international law and denied using the weapon illegally.

John Kirby, a spokesman for the U.S. National Security Council, said the United States would be “asking questions” about the incident. White phosphorus is an incendiary, toxic substance used to create light and smoke screens during combat. Its use is not illegal, but deploying it deliberately against civilians or in a civilian setting violates the laws of war.

 

[wildcat09 29352]

21 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

I mean, sure. But do you see Christians killing muslims and screaming "God is Great!!!!WHARRRGABRBBBBBLLL" No. Because their definition of a "good person" in simply different than ours.

The Qur’an depicts the Jews as inveterately evil and bent on destroying the well-being of the Muslims. They are the strongest of all people in enmity toward the Muslims (5:82); they fabricate things and falsely ascribe them to Allah (2:79; 3:75, 3:181); they claim that Allah’s power is limited (5:64); they love to listen to lies (5:41); they disobey Allah and never observe his commands (5:13). They are disputing and quarreling (2:247); hiding the truth and misleading people (3:78); staging rebellion against the prophets and rejecting their guidance (2:55); being hypocritical (2:14, 2:44); giving preference to their own interests over the teachings of Muhammad (2:87); wishing evil for people and trying to mislead them (2:109); feeling pain when others are happy or fortunate (3:120); being arrogant about their being Allah’s beloved people (5:18); devouring people’s wealth by subterfuge (4:161); slandering the true religion and being cursed by Allah (4:46); killing the prophets (2:61); being merciless and heartless (2:74); never keeping their promises or fulfilling their words (2:100); being unrestrained in committing sins (5:79); being cowardly (59:13-14); being miserly (4:53); being transformed into apes and pigs for breaking the Sabbath (2:63-65; 5:59-60; 7:166); and more. They are under Allah’s curse (9:30), and Muslims should wage war against them and subjugate them under Islamic hegemony (9:29).

I would fucking love to know where you copied and pasted this from.

ETA: also, Sam Harris is an extraordinarily stupid man when it comes to discussing religion. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by wildcat09

[David Dennison 18856]

21 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

I mean, sure. But do you see Christians killing muslims and screaming "God is Great!!!!WHARRRGABRBBBBBLLL" No. Because their definition of a "good person" in simply different than ours.

You must not have been a history major.

[Hornius Emeritus 12460]

22 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You must not have been a history major.

Isn't the point that Christianity has (mostly) moved beyond that?

I was at a sherry drinking event with UT's eminent Roger Louis, A.J.P. Taylor, Martin Gilbert etc... in 1984 at U.T. It was only about a month before Taylor's accident.   Taylor made the observation that Islam and modernity are fundamentally opposed and that there are no countries in which Muslims comprised a sizeable minority that were not experiencing strife because, fundamentally, Islam can't accept the practice of other religions. Louis and Gilbert both thought about it and rather agreed, I think.  One of the greatest nights of my life. I was such a young whipperschnapper.

[Anastasis 23469]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

Two stories up right now that ought to make anyone question the tactics used by the IDF in this conflict, where more than 15,000 civilians, including thousands of children, have already been killed.

1. Three Israeli hostages carrying a white flag were shot and killed by the IDF.

On Friday, the three hostages emerged, shirtless, from a building tens of yards away from the Israeli soldiers, bearing a stick with a white cloth, the military said in a preliminary investigation. One of the soldiers, believing they posed a threat, opened fire on the three hostages, killing two of them and wounding the third, the early investigation found.

The third fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was shot and killed, the military statement said.

In a briefing with reporters, an Israeli military official called the incident a violation of the military’s regulations. The hostages may have escaped or been abandoned by their captors, the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity under military protocol.

2.  Yet another journalist was killed. That makes 64 who've been killed so far.

An Al Jazeera cameraman was killed and the network’s Arabic-language Gaza Strip bureau chief was wounded on Friday during an attack in southern Gaza, Al Jazeera said, the latest in a long string of journalist casualties in the war.

The cameraman, Samer Abu Daqqa, and Wael al-Dahdouh, the bureau chief, were covering the aftermath of airstrikes at a U.N. school-turned-shelter in Khan Younis when both were wounded, the network said. Mr. al-Dahdouh told Al Jazeera that he was able to walk out of the area and seek help, but Mr. Abu Daqqa died from his injuries, the network said.

In October, Mr. al-Dahdouh’s wife, son, daughter and infant grandson were killed at the Nuseirat refugee camp in central Gaza, where they had been sheltering.

*****

According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, a nonprofit organization based in New York that defends the rights of journalists around the world, 64 journalists and media workers have been killed in Gaza since the war between Israel and Hamas began on Oct. 7, more than in any other similar period of time since the group started collecting data in 1992.

The C.P.J. defines journalists as “people who cover news or comment on public affairs through print, digital, broadcast media and other means,” and media workers as essential support staff, including translators, drivers and fixers. The group has said it does not include people in its tallies if there is evidence of their “acting on behalf of militant groups or serving in a military capacity at the time of their deaths.”

*****

International watchdogs have said that an Israeli strike on Oct. 13 that killed a videographer for the Reuters news agency and injured six other journalists was a targeted attack carried out by the Israeli military. Earlier this year, a C.P.J. report found that no one had been held accountable for nearly 20 journalists killed by the Israeli military since 2001.

Another, two women sniped inside a monastery in Gaza.

[hobbes2702 13032]

13 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

Isn't the point that Christianity has (mostly) moved beyond that?

I was at a sherry drinking event with UT's eminent Roger Louis, A.J.P. Taylor, Martin Gilbert etc... in 1984 at U.T. It was only about a month before Taylor's accident.   Taylor made the observation that Islam and modernity are fundamentally opposed and that there are no countries in which Muslims comprised a sizeable minority that were not experiencing strife because, fundamentally, Islam can't accept the practice of other religions. Louis and Gilbert both thought about it and rather agreed, I think.  One of the greatest nights of my life. I was such a young whipperschnapper.

Islam and modernity aren’t any more fundamentally opposed than any other religion and modernity. 

Why people pretend that Islam is somehow unique compared to other religions is beyond me. There’s still plenty of hate and persecution from Christianity.

[wildcat09 29352]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

Islam and modernity aren’t any more fundamentally opposed than any other religion and modernity. 

Why people pretend that Islam is somehow unique compared to other religions is beyond me. There’s still plenty of hate and persecution from Christianity.

The politically dominant form of Christianity in this country is virtually indistinguishable in its political goals from the taliban.

[bolverk 29671]

57 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

Isn't the point that Christianity has (mostly) moved beyond that?

I was at a sherry drinking event with UT's eminent Roger Louis, A.J.P. Taylor, Martin Gilbert etc... in 1984 at U.T. It was only about a month before Taylor's accident.   Taylor made the observation that Islam and modernity are fundamentally opposed and that there are no countries in which Muslims comprised a sizeable minority that were not experiencing strife because, fundamentally, Islam can't accept the practice of other religions. Louis and Gilbert both thought about it and rather agreed, I think.  One of the greatest nights of my life. I was such a young whipperschnapper.

Fundamentalism, of any stripe, can't accept the practice of other religions. Pew Survey results from sub-Saharan Africa and SE Asia put the lie to the statement that this is an "Islam" problem when it's one of religious extremism. That's the enemy of tolerance, peace, and democracy, which should be fought everywhere.

 

Senegal, Mali, and Djibouti are overwhelmingly Muslim nations, with the first two being very tolerant. Djibouti is less so, but still a majority. Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, and Tanzania all have significant Muslim minorities and still most of the population believes in religious tolerance to varying degrees. Maybe consider how different political situations in each country might account for different sentiments. 

Now, imagine this question being asked in much of the Deep South or how the answers would be different around our country.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2010/04/15/executive-summary-islam-and-christianity-in-sub-saharan-africa/

 

Southeast Asia has a mix of religions among its countries. Cambodia and Sri Lanka are overwhelmingly Buddhist and are the least tolerant among these countries. Indonesia and Malaysia are majority Muslim, and they see a threat from the fundamentalists, not from other religions.

But, holy cow, look at Singapore being tolerant as fuck.

Many major world religions have a significant presence in Singapore. Among Singaporean adults, 26% identify as Buddhist, 18% as Muslim, 17% as Christian, 8% as Hindu, 6% as a follower of Chinese traditional religions like Taoism or Confucianism, and 4% as some other religion, including Indigenous religions.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/11/20/how-people-in-south-and-southeast-asia-view-religious-diversity-and-pluralism/sr_23-11-20_sea-pluralism_3/

 

Edited to add: Hornius, man, I'm really disappointed, because I thought you'd be above the Islamophobia shit. The pronouncement that Islam is a uniquely problematic one is the exact type of stereotyping that leads to the lack of tolerance you're bemoaning.

And, considering that the conversation you had took place in the mid-1980s with an English historian during the times of the Troubles in Northern Ireland is especially rich, given the conflict between the Protestants and the Catholics.

Edited December 16, 2023 by bolverk

[Hornius Emeritus 12460]

52 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

Edited to add: Hornius, man, I'm really disappointed, because I thought you'd be above the Islamophobia shit.

The pronouncement that Islam is a uniquely problematic one is the exact type of stereotyping that leads to the lack of tolerance you're bemoaning.

 

There is not one Islamophobic aspect on my part to my recitation of what A.J.P. Taylor said. And he was certainly no reactionary.




 

[bolverk 29671]

5 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

There is not one Islamophobic aspect on my part to my recitation of what A.J.P. Taylor said. And he was certainly no reactionary.




 

Then what was the point of you recounting that story in the defense of Texas Hammer's undeniable Islamophobia? Besides, Taylor was clearly wrong.

[BrickHorn 18221]

2 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

Isn't the point that Christianity has (mostly) moved beyond that?

I was at a sherry drinking event with UT's eminent Roger Louis, A.J.P. Taylor, Martin Gilbert etc... in 1984 at U.T. It was only about a month before Taylor's accident.   Taylor made the observation that Islam and modernity are fundamentally opposed and that there are no countries in which Muslims comprised a sizeable minority that were not experiencing strife because, fundamentally, Islam can't accept the practice of other religions. Louis and Gilbert both thought about it and rather agreed, I think.  One of the greatest nights of my life. I was such a young whipperschnapper.

What a complete load of worthless horseshit. Muslims spent centuries carrying the torch of knowledge for mankind while European Christians wallowed in ignorance, superstition, and filth. 

There’s nothing inherent in either religion that would make the followers of one more capable of good or evil compared to the other. 

[hobbes2702 13032]

42 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

There is not one Islamophobic aspect on my part to my recitation of what A.J.P. Taylor said. And he was certainly no reactionary.




 

Then why did you post it?

[Hornius Emeritus 12460]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

Then what was the point of you recounting that story in the defense of Texas Hammer's undeniable Islamophobia? Besides, Taylor was clearly wrong.

I didn't offer anything in defense of Texas Hammer's post, or even reference it.   Have you been drinking?

[bolverk 29671]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:12 PM, Thetexashammer said:

I mean, sure. But do you see Christians killing muslims and screaming "God is Great!!!!WHARRRGABRBBBBBLLL" No. Because their definition of a "good person" in simply different than ours.

 

4 hours ago, David Dennison said:

You must not have been a history major.

 

4 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

Isn't the point that Christianity has (mostly) moved beyond that?

I was at a sherry drinking event with UT's eminent Roger Louis, A.J.P. Taylor, Martin Gilbert etc... in 1984 at U.T. It was only about a month before Taylor's accident.   Taylor made the observation that Islam and modernity are fundamentally opposed and that there are no countries in which Muslims comprised a sizeable minority that were not experiencing strife because, fundamentally, Islam can't accept the practice of other religions. Louis and Gilbert both thought about it and rather agreed, I think.  One of the greatest nights of my life. I was such a young whipperschnapper.

 

No, I haven't been drinking. Look at the sequence above:

1) Texas Hammer says Islamophobic shit about Muslims having a different idea of what makes a person "good." 2) David responds by saying Texas Hammer must not have been a "history major" alluding to the Crusades. 3) You said that Christianity has moved beyond that and then recounted a story about how you heard some smart people agree with each other that Islam is incompatible with modernity and can't get along with any other religions. 

Maybe you missed what David was responding to. Again, I was surprised that you told that story within that context.

[hobbes2702 13032]

56 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

I didn't offer anything in defense of Texas Hammer's post, or even reference it.   Have you been drinking?

Then what was the point of your post?

[Hornius Emeritus 12460]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Then what was the point of your post?

Exactly what it said: to offer that one of the greatest historians of the 20th century felt that 1)  Islam and modernity are fundamentally opposed and that 2) in 1984, there were no countries in which Muslims comprised a sizeable minority were not experiencing strife because, in his view, Islam and modernity of that fundamental incompatibility. 

That's all. It's like saying "Darrell Royall said that three things can happen when you try to pass the ball, and two of them are bad."   That statement doesn't indicate that the person offering up DKR's observation on forward passes has his own opinion. No. He's commenting that one view of forward passes is that of DKR. That's it.

[956 Worldwide 34706]

The local practice of Islam tends to be much more chill in places where it came via traders and merchants as opposed to invading armies as the charts @bolverk shows. In modern times, big problems appear anywhere “charities” and religious schools funded by Gulf money appear. The combination of: 1. Saudi custodianship of the holy sites; 2. official Saudi Wahhabism; and 3. Gulf oil revenues has been extremely toxic for the Islamic world. 

[TwiceHorn 31455]

28 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The local practice of Islam tends to be much more chill in places where it came via traders and merchants as opposed to invading armies as the charts @bolverk shows. In modern times, big problems appear anywhere “charities” and religious schools funded by Gulf money appear. The combination of: 1. Saudi custodianship of the holy sites; 2. official Saudi Wahhabism; and 3. Gulf oil revenues has been extremely toxic for the Islamic world. 

Yep, I sense that the problems of "modern Islam" are modern, just like the problems of Christian fundamentalism.

[Huckleberry 32858]

Jesus @Hornius Emeritus you are a good guy who occasionally wanders in with some of the most terrible posts I've ever seen.

"Oh I'm just relaying what some other guy said."

FFS.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

4 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

What a complete load of worthless horseshit. Muslims spent centuries carrying the torch of knowledge for mankind while European Christians wallowed in ignorance, superstition, and filth. 

There’s nothing inherent in either religion that would make the followers of one more capable of good or evil compared to the other. 

Islam does not accept secular government. And the Koran is not Islamophobic. It is clear, for example, that the penalty for homosexuality is death. women are treated like slaves in Islam. Muslims are taught to hate jews and christians. These ideas are not compatible with democracy.

 

[hobbes2702 13032]

35 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Jesus @Hornius Emeritus you are a good guy who occasionally wanders in with some of the most terrible posts I've ever seen.

"Oh I'm just relaying what some other guy said."

FFS.

Fucking nailed it.

29 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Islam does not accept secular government. And the Koran is not Islamophobic. It is clear, for example, that the penalty for homosexuality is death. women are treated like slaves in Islam. Muslims are taught to hate jews and christians. These ideas are not compatible with democracy.

 

Shut the fuck up and go away. Start a thread and post your bigoted bullshit there

[wildcat09 29352]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:12 PM, Thetexashammer said:

I mean, sure. But do you see Christians killing muslims and screaming "God is Great!!!!WHARRRGABRBBBBBLLL" No. Because their definition of a "good person" in simply different than ours.

The Qur’an depicts the Jews as inveterately evil and bent on destroying the well-being of the Muslims. They are the strongest of all people in enmity toward the Muslims (5:82); they fabricate things and falsely ascribe them to Allah (2:79; 3:75, 3:181); they claim that Allah’s power is limited (5:64); they love to listen to lies (5:41); they disobey Allah and never observe his commands (5:13). They are disputing and quarreling (2:247); hiding the truth and misleading people (3:78); staging rebellion against the prophets and rejecting their guidance (2:55); being hypocritical (2:14, 2:44); giving preference to their own interests over the teachings of Muhammad (2:87); wishing evil for people and trying to mislead them (2:109); feeling pain when others are happy or fortunate (3:120); being arrogant about their being Allah’s beloved people (5:18); devouring people’s wealth by subterfuge (4:161); slandering the true religion and being cursed by Allah (4:46); killing the prophets (2:61); being merciless and heartless (2:74); never keeping their promises or fulfilling their words (2:100); being unrestrained in committing sins (5:79); being cowardly (59:13-14); being miserly (4:53); being transformed into apes and pigs for breaking the Sabbath (2:63-65; 5:59-60; 7:166); and more. They are under Allah’s curse (9:30), and Muslims should wage war against them and subjugate them under Islamic hegemony (9:29).

Still waiting for where you copied and pasted this from. Surely your source is not too embarrassing for you to reveal.

[RomaVicta 29907]

Yes, TexasHammer. We should turn to the Bible for guidance on slavery, a woman's place, masturbation, proper sex, homosexuality, and diet.

Sure, the Koran is more warlike. I just doubt the wisdom of adhering to ancient documents written by the supersticious and used to unite and control people. 

 

[BrickHorn 18221]

39 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Yes, TexasHammer. We should turn to the Bible for guidance on slavery, a woman's place, masturbation, proper sex, homosexuality, and diet.

Sure, the Koran is more warlike. I just doubt the wisdom of adhering to ancient documents written by the supersticious and used to unite and control people. 

 

Christians: Never mind all the people we’ve slaughtered and land we’ve stolen in the name of Jesus Christ. At least our holy book that we mostly ignore is PG.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

4 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Still waiting for where you copied and pasted this from. Surely your source is not too embarrassing for you to reveal.

Ooh, ooh, I know this one! *raises hand*

[wildcat09 29352]

46 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Christians: Never mind all the people we’ve slaughtered and land we’ve stolen in the name of Jesus Christ. At least our holy book that we mostly ignore is PG.

Except when it’s not:

 

[BrickHorn 18221]

9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Except when it’s not:

 

Yeah I was talking about the New Testament. The book that features that guy Jesus and his teachings to turn the other cheek, and blessed are the peacemakers, etc. The Old Testament is undeniably bloodthirsty and chauvinistic. And yeah, that’s part of the Christian Bible, too.

[956 Worldwide 34706]

17 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yep, I sense that the problems of "modern Islam" are modern, just like the problems of Christian fundamentalism.

Yep, doctrines of Biblical inerrancy and literalism are creations of and reactions to the modern era; a lot of Islamic fundamentalism and extremism comes from similar places and motivations.

Most discussions of any religion at all get ate up with tropes for the simple reason that nearly all popular and accessible information on the subject is written by polemicists on one side or another. That’s no way to get a good feel for what the hell is going on and how people actually apply it. 
 

You see that right here. BrickHorn’s pop history of what was going on in Western Europe (and the Church’s role) during late antiquity to the late Middle Ages is a narrative created by 18th and 19th century modern anti-clerical, anti-Cathic polemicists who are completely discredited by anyone doing real scholarship. It’s the equivalent of Sam Harris’ deep takes on Islam. Not to mention the erasure of a thousand years of Greek speaking Christian Romans who kept reading and copying Aristotle and doing science— and their interactions, tensions, and fights with their eastern and western neighbors. 

TL;DR these narratives are pointless because they are polemics directed at  Modern ideological opponents and not actually designed to understand the things. It’s a world view based on the 18th and 19th century equivalent of a Reddit post.

[Captainant 27659]

22 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Islam does not accept secular government. And the Koran is not Islamophobic. It is clear, for example, that the penalty for homosexuality is death. women are treated like slaves in Islam. Muslims are taught to hate jews and christians. These ideas are not compatible with democracy.

You do know that we are currently, in the name of the Lord your God, forcing women to carry dead fetuses to sepsis and cause the mother permanent damage right? And those same christofascists are marching through the streets with torches chanting how the "Jews will not replace" them? And the chosen leader of the modern evangelical movement, Donald J Trump, is just deadass stealing lines from Hitler?

[Nivek 16923]

There hasn’t been enough blood or carnage yet.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

You guys need to be more careful. Excluding CaptainAnt, the rest of you are edgeing towards rational discussion. That kind of thing is haram around here.

[InkaUtexas 25915]

5 hours ago, Nivek said:

There hasn’t been enough blood or carnage yet.

Yet. if those fucktards win.

[jw4381 3072]

Came to see y'all's take on this, but it doesn't seem to be reported here yet.

3 Israeli hostages had escaped and had a white flag with SOS or some such thing. They were yelling they were escaped hostages in Hebrew, but were gunned down by IDF.

Cluster. Their families are apoplectic.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/16/1219826061/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-palestinians

 

[wildcat09 29352]

Yeah, it's obviously pretty horrible. TPM has a newsletter (paywalled) noting the similarities to the IDF murdering another Israeli who had stopped a Hamas terrorist attack last month:

Quote

You’ve likely heard about the incident on Friday in which Israeli soldiers shot and killed three Israeli hostages who had either escaped from their captors or been abandoned by them during fighting in the Shejaiya neighborhood of Gaza City. The three were two Israeli Jews and one Israeli Bedouin, each of whom had been captured on October 7th. At the most basic level this is a version of “friendly fire” in which soldiers inadvertently kill fellow soldiers from their own army during wartime. In this case, it’s hostages not fellow soldiers. But the nature of the case is comparable.

The incident has produced a firestorm within Israel, both for the inherently tragic nature of the hostages’ deaths but also because of the particular details of how they died. Their deaths have added renewed intensity to arguments and protests about how the government is balancing the imperatives of destroying Hamas and bringing the country’s hostages home safely. Recent weeks have seen various protests in Israel, often led by or featuring families of hostages, demanding the government focus more on making a deal with Hamas to return all the hostages. The controversy has been fueled in part by Prime Minister Netanyahu’s almost total refusal to visit and meet with residents of communities attacked on October 7th or the families of the hostages.

I want to provide some more detail about how this happened and combine that with the story of another shooting that took place in Jerusalem on November 30th, that of Yuval Castleman.

Let me briefly explain the circumstances of Castleman’s death.

On November 30th, Castleman, a lawyer and former police officer on his way to work, came upon a terrorist attack unfolding at a Jerusalem bus stop. Two gunman had already killed three civilians on their morning commute. (Hamas later took credit for the attack.) Castleman got out of his car with his gun, charged toward the scene and shot and killed the two attackers, essentially ending the attack. As this was happening, two soldiers arrived. An additional man, later identified as off-duty reservist Aviad Frija, also approached Castleman. The three mistook Castleman for one of the terrorists.

Up to this point we have the makings of tragic confusion. Castleman realized that the soldiers thought he was one of the attackers and proceeded to toss away his gun. He opened his shirt (to show he had no additional weapons or a suicide vest) and put his hands in the air while shouting in Hebrew “don’t shoot” and that he was an Israeli. At some point in these fraught moments he threw his wallet with his ID toward the soldiers to identify himself. The off-duty reservist, Frija, shot Castleman multiple times and left him bleeding on the ground.

Castleman died hours later in the hospital.

While the true circumstances of the incident were still unclear, Frija was briefly embraced as a hero for killing the suspected terrorist and cheered by right-wing politicians. He noted proudly in interviews that he was part of the “hilltop youth,” groups of radical teens and young men in the West Bank who act as squatters on land for new illegal outposts and as vigilantes attacking Palestinians and their property.

Castleman’s final moments have a multi-layered complexity as fascinating as his death is tragic that bundles together multiple stories in one chaotic flurry. At one level, it’s friendly fire and mistaken identity. Frija thought he was killing a Hamas terrorist who had already shot and/or killed several Israeli civilians. But IDF rules of engagement make it crystal clear he shouldn’t have shot Castleman even if he was a terrorist. Castleman threw down his gun, opened his jacket to show he had no suicide vest or other weapons; he got on his knees. Castleman’s family rightly called the shooting an “execution.”

In a story reminiscent of police shootings in the United States, Frija originally claimed that Castleman had made suspicious movements that put him in fear for his life. But subsequently released surveillance video of the incident put the lie to these claims. (Frija is currently under house arrest while being investigated for reckless homicide.)

Though Castleman’s death is not directly related, his shooting comes in the midst of an effort on the part of an extremist government minister in charge of the Israeli police, Itamar Ben Gvir, to flood the country with guns for civilians. (Though armed soldiers are a common sight in Israel, firearms in civilian hands have historically been tightly regulated.) Ben Gvir has also called for loosening open fire regulations.

In the aftermath of Castleman’s death, former IDF chief of staff and one-time Netanyahu ally Moshe Ya’alon said that Ben Gvir’s “populist” calls to loosen open-fire regulations had contributed to the climate that made Castleman’s death possible. Ya’alon pointed to a similar incident in 2016. It was quite similar to Castleman’s except for the fact that the injured and unarmed man on the ground really was a terrorist. IDF soldier Elor Azaria shot him. He was later tried and convicted for manslaughter. But he became a hero on the Israeli right for his actions.

Let’s return to the killing of the three Israeli hostages in Gaza City.

It’s important to understand that this takes place in the chaos of urban warfare. Hamas fighters’ only chance to engage Israeli soldiers on winning terms is through subterfuge and ambushes. The IDF has reported that Hamas fighters have used recordings of babies and people crying for help in Hebrew to lure in soldiers. But even in this context the details of the killings are at best troubling.

While the incident is still being investigated, preliminary reports indicate that the three men, shirtless, appeared waving a white flag. An Israeli soldier in a nearby building opened fire and shouted “terrorists!” This initial volley killed two of the hostages. The third, apparently injured, retreated into a building from which he could be heard crying for help in Hebrew. At this point the battalion commander left the building and called on his soldiers to stop shooting. Moments later the third hostage again came out of the building and another soldier opened fire, killing him.

None of us who haven’t been in that kind of situation can likely imagine the level of terror experienced by soldiers charged with clearing out terrorist fighters, knowing those fighters are laying in wait to catch them unawares or lure them into ambushes. But that’s precisely what military training and clear rules of engagement are meant to handle. In this case, it certainly appears to have failed, though we should wait for the results of the full investigation before rendering any final judgments.

These are two different incidents in very different circumstances. We should be cautious about drawing too strong conclusions since each incident turns on individual factors, some of which we may not yet know. But both suggest that clear military rules of engagement are frequently disregarded and that Palestinians, whether surrendering terrorists or innocents, are killed contrary to prohibitions against opening fire on unarmed or surrendering people. We’re hearing about these incidents precisely because the victims were Israelis.

One clear fact of history and military life is that occupations degrade militaries, both morally and operationally. There’s no question that this has happened with the IDF, after half a century of occupation. The ongoing settlement process has both entrenched the occupation while also breeding a community of violent extremists who have themselves entered the IDF in growing numbers and changed it. Notably, the far-right minister I mentioned above, Itamar Ben Gvir, was rejected by the IDF, despite the fact that there is universal conscription, because of his far-right-activism during his youth. He first became notorious as a teenager in November 1995 when he stole the emblem from then-Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin’s official car, bragging, “just like we got to this emblem, we can get to Rabin.” Weeks later Rabin was murdered by fellow extremist Yigal Amir. Ben Gvir has subsequently been convicted of various offenses, like incitement to racism, supporting a terrorist organization, vandalism. The list is almost endless. When activists tried to sue to prevent him from becoming a minister earlier this year he insisted he’d mellowed.

Frija meanwhile was inducted into a special unit created only a few years ago designated specifically for members of the “hilltop youth.” The IDF is considering disbanding the unit. Unsurprisingly it has become notorious for some of the worst IDF abuses in the West Bank.

As I said, occupation degrades militaries, morally, operationally. It also degrades societies. The world changed so much on October 7th, certainly in Israel, that it’s easy to forget the country had been awash in massive civilian protests for going on a year over the government’s attempted judicial coup. The leaders of those protests worked hard to keep the protests focused on the threat the government posed toward Israeli democracy rather than other issues like the occupation since that is profoundly divisive and would shatter the coalition that sustained the protests. But anyone with eyes open could see that the occupation and the settler extremists it spawned can’t be separated from the threats to democracy within Israel. One sustains the other; one requires the other.

It's hard not to draw some similarities between our forever wars and their encirclement of Gaza and their expansions into the West Bank.  There's just no way to have a fascist government and a non-fascist military. The fascism will infect and degrade the military's professionalism and readiness, and they have in Israel. On a related note, approximately 20% of Israeli soldiers who've died in this war were killed by friendly fire or other accidents.  As Marshall notes above, even the most well-intentioned soldiers are dealing with an unbelievably stressful situation, and I can certainly understand how scared they must be. But even the well-intentioned ones are fucking up, a lot. And they've got plenty of their own Eddie Gallaghers too:

Quote

Pope Francis condemned an Israeli sniper’s killing of two women who were taking shelter at a Catholic church in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, describing it as terrorism as he gave his weekend blessing.

“Some would say ‘It is war. It is terrorism,’” he said. “Yes, it is war. It is terrorism.”

The Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem said that the women, a mother and daughter, had been walking to the Sister’s Convent at the Holy Family Parish when shots rang out. “One was killed as she tried to carry the other to safety,” the ecclesiastical office said.

Seven other people were shot and wounded in the attack at the compound, where many of Gaza’s dwindling Christian population have taken shelter since Israel declared a state of war on Hamas in October.

“No warning was given, no notification was provided,” the patriarchate’s statement continued. “They were shot in cold blood inside the premises of the parish, where there are no belligerents.”

The pope identified the women as Nahida Khalil Anton and her daughter Samar Kamal Anton.

“Unarmed civilians are the objects of bombings and shootings,” he said. “And this happened even inside the Holy Family parish complex, where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick or disabled, nuns.”

The Angelus prayer on Sunday was not the first time that Francis has explicitly connected Israel’s actions to terror since its bombardment campaign began. In a Nov. 22 speech at St. Peter’s Square, he stated that the conflict had “gone beyond war. This is terrorism.”

The pope also noted in his Sunday address that the IDF had also targeted the Convent of the Sisters of Mother Theresa, a part of the compound that houses 54 disabled people. The attack, which also occurred on Saturday, destroyed the convent’s generator and fuel resources, with the patriarchate saying the building had been rendered “uninhabitable.”

The Israel Defense Forces initially refuted the claim of an attack on the parish, telling The Times of Israel that, though church officials had contacted the military about the parish about nearby explosions on Saturday, “no reports of a hit on the church, nor civilians being injured or killed, were raised.” It added that the Israeli military “does not target civilians, no matter their religion.”

Hours later, however, an IDF spokesperson confirmed to Fox News that an “incident” at the church had indeed taken place. “When reviewing incidents that may have taken place in the vicinity of churches in Gaza, it was found that an incident took place during yesterday afternoon (Saturday) in another area in Gaza, near the Latin Church in the Shejayia area,” the spokesperson said.

“An initial review suggests that IDF troops, who were operating against Hamas terrorists in the area, operated against a threat that they identified in the area of the church,” they continued. “The IDF is conducting a thorough review of the incident.”

The Holy See, the government of Vatican City, republished the Jerusalem patriarchate’s statement in a news release issued through Vatican News. It added: “Israel has justified the attack, claiming the presence of a missile launcher in the parish.”

The killings in the parish took place just days after the IDF admitted it had accidentally killed three Israeli hostages, having mistaken them as a threat. The military said over the weekend that the hostages had been unarmed and waving a white flag. The IDF has said the incident is under investigation.

Whatever professionalism the IDF used to have, they resemble nothing more than American police today.

[Anastasis 23469]

On 12/17/2023 at 8:44 PM, Nivek said:

There hasn’t been enough blood or carnage yet.

Don’t worry, the “rules based international order” is about to really kick in. We got shipping lanes to protect. Which we clearly value more than the lives of Palestinian babies and children. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Anastasis

[AnTiM 1666]

I will be waiting to see if anyone has an idea about whether the time and money spent on building all the tunnels could have been better used to help the people who really needed it.  Not to mention who paid for it and apparently got it done without attracting much attention.

[Jatrain 288]

1 hour ago, AnTiM said:

I will be waiting to see if anyone has an idea about whether the time and money spent on building all the tunnels could have been better used to help the people who really needed it.  Not to mention who paid for it and apparently got it done without attracting much attention.

Well, according to Ehud Barak at least some of the tunnels were built by Israel so you might start by asking your questions there.  

[YGIFS 19450]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Don’t worry, the “rules based international order” is about to really kick in. We got shipping lanes to protect. Which we clearly value more than the lives of Palestinian babies and children. 

From the River to the Sea, we shall ship holiday gifts to thee in Galilee.  

Dammit, Amazon had something for this.  Wait, is that a river too?  

Completely anecdotal-but in the past few days I have seen an overwhelming uptick in pro-Palestine banners/bills/posters/etc. on UT campus and surrounding environs.  Which is weird to me because 90% of the students aren't on campus right now.  I can't help but wonder if somebody is astro-turfing it to make it look like young people/faculty/leadership on top-tiered college campuses are feeling one way or the other about the Gaza conflict for media purposes.  But it's even stranger than they wouldn't have just googled "When does UT-Austin finish final exams?"  Seriously, drive around campus this week, it's fucking bizarre.  There are more leaflets than there are people.  

[David Dennison 18856]

5 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Don’t worry, the “rules based international order” is about to really kick in. We got shipping lanes to protect. Which we clearly value more than the lives of Palestinian babies and children.