Israel

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Well, one side did some ethnic cleansing.  The other side is just trying to root out those evil people.

I'm not sure you know what ethnic cleansing is.

[Bullneck 19084]

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

You are a propagandist and definitely one of the primary culprits in pushing twitter hot take atrocity porn here and in the DT, so I understand why you are triggered when I pull the curtains back. Maybe your next move should be to try and label me as the “other” and an antisemite.  

I could plaster this thread with information on all the dead babies and children in Gaza and then label you as an “other” hoping to push some bullshit narrative.  But I don’t because that is disingenuous commentary and I’m not a propagandist. 

Negged for an extremely disingenuous post.

21 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not sure you know what ethnic cleansing is.

I don't.  What is it?

8 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I CONDEMN HAMAS AND THE OCT. 7TH ATTACKS, UNEQUIVICOLLY.

So, what now?  Do nothing?  Ask Hamas nicely for the hostages back?  Pay Hamas some ransom? 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Bullneck

[Anastasis 23469]

Pull back the foreign policy hood from many posters here and there is a little lindsey graham and/or nikki haley underneath it flailing about. 

 

In other news from the "saying the obvious" file, SA files charges of genocide at ICJ.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67844551

From the "who could have guessed the response" file, Israel says the charges are antisemitic blood libel. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 hours ago, Bullneck said:

So, what now?  Do nothing?  Ask Hamas nicely for the hostages back?  Pay Hamas some ransom?

I don't understand what your goal here is. Do you think anyone in this thread supports Hamas/doesn't want them gone?

[Anastasis 23469]

7 hours ago, Nivek said:

It is not as cut and dry as people present on here.  Some of the settlements were on land that Jewish communities occupied but were driven off of in the early 1900s. I believe some of them were empty, but there were initially 4 main communities that this applies to. 

From one source I read, the majority do so for economic reasons (cheaper to live there) however up to 1/3 of the settlers are right wing extremists. 

The next issue is who governs that land?  Who polices it when there are crimes against the settlers or crimes committed by them?  Does Israel have the authority to remove the settlers?   Do they have the authority to enforce laws and whose laws?  

I have brought some of this up much earlier in the thread (or the DT thread) but emotions were too high.  

Would appreciate links to some of these claims, to be informed.  I don't know what surveys show of the motivations of settlers, whether they are economic or fundamentalist extremist in nature. Not sure that it is really substantive to the bottom line, but it is an interesting data point. I don't find the questions you lay out to be particularly compelling in terms of correcting the reality of the situation on the ground. The occupation is illegal, brutal, and dehumanizing. The reality is that many of the settlers are straight up terrorists, backed by the IDF and Israel.

[Anastasis 23469]

2 hours ago, Bullneck said:

Well, one side did some ethnic cleansing.  The other side is just trying to root out those evil people.

 

 

 

 

 

[Anastasis 23469]

7 hours ago, statsman said:

I think it’s hard to argue against the idea that, of those groups, Israel and the U.S. are the most committed to the well being of the Palestinian civilians. 

This is some of the dumbest shit ever posted on this sub, and that is not a inattentive claim that I make lightly. 

[Bullneck 19084]

16 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't understand what your goal here is. Do you think anyone in this thread supports Hamas/doesn't want them gone?

Do you think their attack on Israel was warranted or appropriate?

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Do you think their attack on Israel was warranted or appropriate?

Bro, are you trolling?

Read your own post and what you quoted.

[Bullneck 19084]

  

13 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Bro, are you trolling?

Read your own post and what you quoted.

Apologies.  I miss some stuff from time to time.   BTW, did you answer this or did I miss that too? 

15 hours ago, Bullneck said:

So, what now?  Do nothing?  Ask Hamas nicely for the hostages back?  Pay Hamas some ransom? 

@brian_fantana -^^^ right here, bud.  Waitin' on your solution. 

And please jump on this one as well:

15 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not sure you know what ethnic cleansing is.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Bullneck

[956 Worldwide 34706]

Speaking of disingenuous shit, I see that Anastasis is on here promoting the ridiculous casualty figures that he pulled from anti-Zionist Twitter, which (in line with Anastasis) is mostly obsessed with proving that Israel is worse than Russia.  
 

What does the OHCR actually say about these figures:

 

Russia hasn’t allowed any investigations or reporting from Mariupol, Sieverodontesk, and all the other cities they leveled and continue to occupy. It’s a black fucking box and everyone knows the there’s mountains of corpses but there’s no Hamas run health ministry to report it.

He’s been a total pro-Putin simp for years and yet his bullshit on this thread gets lapped up. 

[Anastasis 23469]

15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Speaking of disingenuous shit, I see that Anastasis is on here promoting the ridiculous casualty figures that he pulled from anti-Zionist Twitter, which (in line with Anastasis) is mostly obsessed with proving that Israel is worse than Russia.  

I hope that everybody here can see through your propaganda artistry at this point. It's always been quite obvious to me. Those figures are capped from CNN and the sources are cited in the figures you fucking clown. And given that they are over a month old, significantly underrepresent the current numbers. Dead babies stacking up faster than can be counted in real time in Gaza. 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html 

 

[956 Worldwide 34706]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I hope that everybody here can see through your propaganda artistry at this point. It's always been quite obvious to me. Those figures are capped from CNN and the sources are cited in the figures you fucking clown. And given that they are over a month old, significantly underrepresent the current numbers. Dead babies stacking up faster than can be counted in real time in Gaza. 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html 

 

I quoted the actual source from OHCR you absolute dipshit. The ones that CNN quotes.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-september-2023#:~:text=From 24 February 2022%2C which,9%2C701 killed and 17%2C748 injured.

 

Quote

OHCHR believes that the actual figures are considerably higher, as the receipt of information from some locations where intense hostilities have been going on has been delayed and many reports are still pending corroboration. This concerns, for example, Mariupol (Donetsk region), Lysychansk, Popasna, and Sievierodonetsk (Luhansk region), where there are allegations of numerous civilian casualties.

 

Ukraine’s deaths are significantly undercounted, so offering up some comparison is just clown-ass behavior.  It’s comparing things that can’t be compared. But to be expected from someone who doesn’t give a shit about kids in Palestine or elsewhere, you care about simping for the Kremlin and obfuscating what they are doing. 

[Bullneck 19084]

I'm sure it was unfathomable misery in Hamburg and Dresden and Tokyo and Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  But we're best friends now. 

I don't say that to be mean or cruel or unfeeling, but Bibi is going to break the Palestinians.  It's 11:58pm and there's no stay of execution coming from the Governor's Mansion.  

******

Here's some interesting reading if you get a moment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entebbe_raid

Edited December 30, 2023 by Bullneck

[Anastasis 23469]

29 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Russia hasn’t allowed any investigations or reporting from Mariupol, Sieverodontesk, and all the other cities they leveled and continue to occupy.

Now tell us about the IDF and investigations and independent reporting in Gaza. The sad thing is that you know exactly what you are doing. You are versed and I assume have workplace experience in assessing propaganda operations and how they are used to justify atrocities. And here you are, tip of the spear in the message board exchange. But please, just keep muttering out "Putin talking points" to yourself in the corner and think that it will resonate with objective readers of this exchange. 

[Anastasis 23469]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Bibi is going to break the Palestinians.

Yea for genocide and ethnic cleansing I guess. "Decency" I think is the operative term.  

[956 Worldwide 34706]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Now tell us about the IDF and investigations and independent reporting in Gaza. The sad thing is that you know exactly what you are doing. You are versed and I assume have workplace experience in assessing propaganda operations and how they are used to justify atrocities. And here you are, tip of the spear in the message board exchange. But please, just keep muttering out "Putin talking points" to yourself in the corner and think that it will resonate with objective readers of this exchange. 

You’re undermining your point, which is that you posted this comparison and now you’re saying the figures can’t be known.  No shit, that’s exactly what I’ve pointed out— it’s a bull shit comparison untethered to facts.  It serves no point, because the things it’s comparing are not accurately counted on either side. 
 

The only important thing to you, like everywhere else, is to show that somehow Russia isn’t really that bad. That’s you MO. You don’t give a shit about kids, you never gave a shit about Arab kids getting bombed by Russia in Syria, or Ukrainian kids, or any kids. You actively obfuscated. You only give a shit about kids when Putin tells you to. 

[Bullneck 19084]

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yea for genocide and ethnic cleansing I guess. "Decency" I think is the operative term.  

Hmmm.  

Hmmm. 

I don't think the European or Pacific theaters were either genocide or ethnic cleansing.  I think they were retaliation for Pearl Harbor and The Blitz and some other stuff.  Do I have that right?  

I've heard tell Pearl Harbor was payback for us cutting off Indonesian oil to Japan, so maybe Roosevelt had unclean hands?  Who knows.  War is Hell, and not all that decent.  Blood of traitors and patriots, old chum (not really -- I think you're Putin troll).

Edited December 30, 2023 by Bullneck

[956 Worldwide 34706]

Although I misspoke, you do kind of care:

- When Russian bombs fall on Syrian kids, you’re mad at Raytheon

- When Israeli bombs fall on Palestinian kids, you’re also mad at Raytheon

- When Hamas gunmen kill Israeli kids, you’re also mad at Raytheon

- When Russian missiles fall on Ukrainian kids, you’re also mad at Raytheon (and Toria Nuland)

It’s almost like you’ve got some pre-generated outrage here. 

[Anastasis 23469]

Oh good. Some full on unhinged shit to dismiss. But you got me on one thing. Yes, as an American I do actually care about the kids that are blown up by American(-supplied) weapons and the fucking obvious and predictable results of American foreign policy. I know that those lives are the easiest to discount in the calculus of your wordview. Tell us all about the modeling and equations you fucking ghoul. 

We are flying planes fulls of bombs into Israel that are being used to effect collective punishment at best, genocide at worst. And this motherfucker thinks that the people that think this shit is fucking sick are in bed with Putin. Because that is the only card he has to play. And propaganda has built a fertile field for it to land.  

[Bullneck 19084]

46 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Oh good. Some full on unhinged shit to dismiss. But you got me on one thing. Yes, as an American I do actually care about the kids that are blown up by American(-supplied) weapons and the fucking obvious and predictable results of American foreign policy. I know that those lives are the easiest to discount in the calculus of your wordview. Tell us all about the modeling and equations you fucking ghoul. 

We are flying planes fulls of bombs into Israel that are being used to effect collective punishment at best, genocide at worst. And this motherfucker thinks that the people that think this shit is fucking sick are in bed with Putin. Because that is the only card he has to play. And propaganda has built a fertile field for it to land.  

So Ana Banana has stumbled upon his own version of the Monte Hall problem:

Door #1

Spoiler

Door #2

Spoiler

 

Door #3:

Quote

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Bullneck

[Anastasis 23469]

Ana Banana? You two are perfect for each other. 

[atomheartbevo 89656]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

I've heard tell Pearl Harbor was payback for us cutting off Indonesian oil to Japan, so maybe Roosevelt had unclean hands?  Who knows.  War is Hell, and not all that decent. 

They attacked us because we embargoed oil exports to Japan and they thought they had only enough oil to last until end of 1942 or early ‘43.

With this stuff, there is always a chain of events that somebody kicks off and where they could have stopped before things got too bad.  Japan had multiple points where they could have backed off and avoided the later consequences..

• Japan invades China.
• Japan invades Vietnam to cut supplies to China.  
• We embargo oil exports to Japan.
• Japan attacks Pearl Harbor
• We eventually drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

 

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Speaking of disingenuous shit, I see that Anastasis is on here promoting the ridiculous casualty figures that he pulled from anti-Zionist Twitter, which (in line with Anastasis) is mostly obsessed with proving that Israel is worse than Russia.  
 

What does the OHCR actually say about these figures:

 

Russia hasn’t allowed any investigations or reporting from Mariupol, Sieverodontesk, and all the other cities they leveled and continue to occupy. It’s a black fucking box and everyone knows the there’s mountains of corpses but there’s no Hamas run health ministry to report it.

He’s been a total pro-Putin simp for years and yet his bullshit on this thread gets lapped up. 

When faced with compelling information that counters a held narrative, one can either reflect and acknowledge the commonalities and obviously disproportionate situations --- or they can nitpick the dataset (but but but an asterisks wasn't carried over!!!) and then label the commenter an "other."

The Palestinian civilian population has a ton in common with the Ukrainian civilian population.  Both have been subjected to a grossly inappropriate level of carnage inflicted on them by the far-right.  One population has been subjected to it for a couple years - the other population subjected to if for a couple decades.  

There are also obvious commonalities between Bibi, the Likud Party, other far-right extremist elements currently in control of Israel when compared to other far-right powers around the world (Hamas, Modi, Orban, Putin, Trump, Erdogan) - mainly the disregard for democracy and use of populism driven by fear-based xenophobic propaganda that dehumanizes the others. 

Sadly, that dehumanization leads to bullshit like the October 7th attack by Hamas, the decades long occupation/blockades of parts of Palestine, the ongoing onslaught of Palestinian civilians, and the ongoing onslaught of Ukrainian civilians.  

[BrickHorn 18221]

15 hours ago, statsman said:

Not at all. 
Let’s talk through it. 
The U.S. wants to see as few Palestinians killed as possible, while supporting Israel’s defense. 
Israel wants to kill as few Palestinians as possible (I believe, and their actions support this belief), while destroying Hamas. 
Iran is willing to spend every Palestinian life in support of its fight against Israel, and the U.S.

Hamas is willing to use Palestinian civilians as human shields as it pursues its fight to kill Jews. 
 
Everyone is appealing to Israel and the U.S. for a ceasefire, and not Hamas and Iran, because everyone sees them as the best bet to stop fighting out of concern for loss of innocent life. Am I wrong?

Oh okay. So you are writing satire, just on accident. 

[RomaVicta 29907]

19 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It is not propaganda to talk about the things Hamas actually did, and filmed. You are confusing propaganda with “facts I don’t like.” 
 

Was it propaganda to publish what happened in Bucha? Or just anti-Russian propaganda. 

So, let's see. Say my brother were to break into a home and visit unspeakable brutality including rape and mutilation on an innocent family living within. Pictures of that would justify killing me and my family in a full military assault? 

Say I didn't even know the guy. The same pictures justify my home being bombed and everybody killed as you try to find the monster?

The pictures are facts, indeed. Propaganda may not be the right word for them being used to inflame public outrage in order to cloud judgment and confuse other facts. 

Fact: Hamas attack beyond horrible. Reading the above about the brutality to women victims provokes sickening outrage which is a valid emotional response. 

Fact: Israel has every right to pursue Hamas and, to a limited extent, err on the side of thoroughness.

Fact: Israel's use of high explosive bombs in thousands of airstrikes prior to the invasion killed thousands and wounded thousands more who had nothing to do with that attack.

Fact: Israel has cut off vital supplies to the people of Palestine resulting in deprivation and agony including the necessity for Palestinian physicians to operate on children with no anesthetic. That is an outrage.

Fact: Israel continues to carry out a bloody conventional ground assault with air support in an urban area leading to what may be tens of thousands of deaths and making the place uninhabitable.

What do I see? A cynical Israeli government using the righteous outrage over the Hamas attack to obliterate the West Bank Gaza. This is similar to the way the W Bush administration kept suggesting that Iraq was somehow involved in 9/11 and had the wherewithal to do even more horrible things.

Anger and fear are the basis of the justification of Israel's actions right now. Those actions are gruesomely and grossly out of proportion. Israel can only maintain this campaign so long as they fuel righteous emotions to justify wicked ends.

Written with neither rancor nor disrespect. I don't see much of anyone posting here as propagandists.

Edited December 30, 2023 by RomaVicta
Geographical incompetence.

[DDD Dad 14336]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

So, let's see. Say my brother were to break into a home and visit unspeakable brutality including rape and mutilation on an innocent family living within. Pictures of that would justify killing me and my family in a full military assault? 

Say I didn't even know the guy. The same pictures justify my home being bombed and everybody killed as you try to find the monster?

The pictures are facts, indeed. Propaganda may not be the right word for them being used to inflame public outrage in order to cloud judgment and confuse other facts. 

Fact: Hamas attack beyond horrible. Reading the above about the brutality to women victims provokes sickening outrage which is a valid emotional response. 

Fact: Israel has every right to pursue Hamas and, to a limited extent, err on the side of thoroughness.

Fact: Israel's use of high explosive bombs in thousands of airstrikes prior to the invasion killed thousands and wounded thousands more who had nothing to do with that attack.

Fact: Israel has cut off vital supplies to the people of Palestine resulting in deprivation and agony including the necessity for Palestinian physicians to operate on children with no anesthetic. That is an outrage.

Fact: Israel continues to carry out a bloody conventional ground assault with air support in an urban area leading to what may be tens of thousands of deaths and making the place uninhabitable.

What do I see? A cynical Israeli government using the righteous outrage over the Hamas attack to obliterate the West Bank. This is similar to the way the W Bush administration kept suggesting that Iraq was somehow involved in 9/11 and had the wherewithal to do even more horrible things.

Anger and fear are the basis of the justification of Israel's actions right now. Those actions are gruesomely and grossly out of proportion. Israel can only maintain this campaign so long as they fuel righteous emotions to justify wicked ends.

Written with neither rancor nor disrespect. I don't see much of anyone posting here as propagandists.

Israel is obliterating the West Bank?  I missed that update. 

[statsman 5457]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

So, let's see. Say my brother were to break into a home and visit unspeakable brutality including rape and mutilation on an innocent family living within. Pictures of that would justify killing me and my family in a full military assault? 

Say I didn't even know the guy. The same pictures justify my home being bombed and everybody killed as you try to find the monster?

The pictures are facts, indeed. Propaganda may not be the right word for them being used to inflame public outrage in order to cloud judgment and confuse other facts. 

Fact: Hamas attack beyond horrible. Reading the above about the brutality to women victims provokes sickening outrage which is a valid emotional response. 

Fact: Israel has every right to pursue Hamas and, to a limited extent, err on the side of thoroughness.

Fact: Israel's use of high explosive bombs in thousands of airstrikes prior to the invasion killed thousands and wounded thousands more who had nothing to do with that attack.

Fact: Israel has cut off vital supplies to the people of Palestine resulting in deprivation and agony including the necessity for Palestinian physicians to operate on children with no anesthetic. That is an outrage.

Fact: Israel continues to carry out a bloody conventional ground assault with air support in an urban area leading to what may be tens of thousands of deaths and making the place uninhabitable.

What do I see? A cynical Israeli government using the righteous outrage over the Hamas attack to obliterate the West Bank. This is similar to the way the W Bush administration kept suggesting that Iraq was somehow involved in 9/11 and had the wherewithal to do even more horrible things.

Anger and fear are the basis of the justification of Israel's actions right now. Those actions are gruesomely and grossly out of proportion. Israel can only maintain this campaign so long as they fuel righteous emotions to justify wicked ends.

Written with neither rancor nor disrespect. I don't see much of anyone posting here as propagandists.

If your brother were to do that, there is an overarching civil authority in place to investigate, prosecute and try him. That is how we avoid clan feuds. 
 
That said, if your brother sheltered with you, and was deemed a continuing threat, the best option for you and your family is to get out or try to turn him in. If the police come in, and your family is hurt, where does the blame lie? The police or your brother? (Note- your analogy is severely flawed. To torture it to make it work here, the police have to be from another state). 

[statsman 5457]

2 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

Oh okay. So you are writing satire, just on accident. 

In 1945, the Japanese Empire was making plans to defend the main islands to the last man, woman and child. That is a matter of record. Okinawa was the trial run. 
 
The U.S. dropped two atomic bombs on civilian population centers. We absolutely killed over a hundred thousand innocent civilians. We did it because we absolutely wanted to end the empire and we didn’t want to have to invade those islands and fight man to man/woman/child. 
 
That display shocked the Japanese leadership to viewing things a new way. They believed they were harder than the Americans, more willing to accept the horrors and losses of war. The bombings showed them they were evaluating the equation with incorrect variables. The U.S. could visit horrors on them from afar, and not share in them. The Japanese leadership was ready to sacrifice their entire populace, and the bombings showed them that could happen and they would still not be able to visit any more harm on their enemy. They realized it was futile. 
 
This is an old debate, it will continue for decades, and never be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. I just want to revisit one facet of it: in the summer of 1945, which government cared more for the Japanese civilian population- the Japanese government or the U.S.’? I would argue that, although the U.S. government was only marginally concerned about Japanese civilians, the Imperial Japanese government was monstrously not concerned, viewing them as chattel in service to their credo of bushido  

Leading back to my original statement- I’d like to hear an argument that Hamas or Iran care more for the Gazan civilians than the U.S. or Israel (remember, Israel has tolerated a decades long barrage of rockets from Gaza). (I threw Fatah in the original statement in hopes of eliciting a real and substantive answer,  because I think an argument could be made there). 

Edited December 30, 2023 by statsman

[RomaVicta 29907]

25 minutes ago, statsman said:

If your brother were to do that, there is an overarching civil authority in place to investigate, prosecute and try him. That is how we avoid clan feuds. 
 
That said, if your brother sheltered with you, and was deemed a continuing threat, the best option for you and your family is to get out or try to turn him in. If the police come in, and your family is hurt, where does the blame lie? The police or your brother? (Note- your analogy is severely flawed. To torture it to make it work here, the police have to be from another state). 

You'll be shocked to hear that I think you're the one reaching. You have to go outside of what I describe in some cases and in others you ignore what I wrote.

One might think you're closely guarding emotional imbalance regarding this subject.

[RomaVicta 29907]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

Israel is obliterating the West Bank?  I missed that update. 

It's been in all the news. Here's one satellite image:

 

Deleted because I'm an idiot. I read Gaza where @DDD Dad wrote West Bank.

Edited December 30, 2023 by RomaVicta

[Anastasis 23469]

36 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

It's been in all the news. Here's one satellite image:

You can find many more on this google page.

Here's one more. Looks kind of obliterated to me. 

Here's one of what appears to have been some sort of business district. Maybe apartments. Hard to tell, isn't it?

No worries. Just Palestinians. Who really gives a shit?

 

You said "West Bank", not "Gaza". DDD read your whole post, knew that it was an honest mistaken reference, but decided that that was the thing that he really wanted to call attention to. 

[RomaVicta 29907]

Well, that's embarrassing.

[RomaVicta 29907]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Leading back to my original statement- I’d like to hear an argument that Hamas or Iran care more for the Gazan civilians than the U.S. or Israel

That is an exercise in absurdity. Are we doing okay as long as we're not acting in the way of Iran or Hamas? Is that the standard?

None of the named entities seem to care much about the Gazan civilians. Look at all the people on this thread finding reasons to justify what's happening to them. 

[Anastasis 23469]

Just now, RomaVicta said:

Well, that's embarrassing.

Really more embarrassing for DDD, but he should be well acclimated to that by now. For those that are actually concerned about what is going on in the West Bank as well, this has been the deadliest year for WB palestinians in nearly 20 years.  

 

[Anastasis 23469]

BTW, here is link to the ICJ filing. Some of the lawyers might find something worth discussing in here, when they are not too busy nitpicking geographical references: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

 

[statsman 5457]

29 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

That is an exercise in absurdity. Are we doing okay as long as we're not acting in the way of Iran or Hamas? Is that the standard?

None of the named entities seem to care much about the Gazan civilians. Look at all the people on this thread finding reasons to justify what's happening to them. 

Thats the point! 
 
This has been a world of states for thousands of years, replacing world of tribes. Hamas’ is the government of Gaza, heavily in Iran’s sphere. I won’t honor the fiction of Hamas as a “legitimate” or elected government; that ship sailed 15 years ago. It is an authoritarian government. 
 
There are lots of authoritarian governments in this world; uniformly it sucks for the governed. 
 
Israel says that the October 7 attack was by Hamas and they declared war on Hamas. They are being coy; there is no functional difference between warring on Hamas and warring on Gaza. Israel does not accept responsibility for Gazan civilians. It does not accept them as citizens.  
 

Things will suck horrifically for Gazan civilians until Hamas is gone. 
 
 

[InkaUtexas 25914]

Take out their leadership and Hamas does not go away. Bomb Gaza and Hamas does not go away.

Show the kind face. Behind every military unit there should be a humanitarian group. Don't build camps, build lives. Don't level blocks, take out terrorists. Do that and few would say a thing.

Dropping a 2000 lb bomb into a residential area just creates more BS.

 

[atomheartbevo 89656]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

None of the named entities seem to care much about the Gazan civilians. Look at all the people on this thread finding reasons to justify what's happening to them. 

37 minutes ago, statsman said:

Israel says that the October 7 attack was by Hamas and they declared war on Hamas. They are being coy; there is no functional difference between warring on Hamas and warring on Gaza. Israel does not accept responsibility for Gazan civilians. It does not accept them as citizens.  

Things will suck horrifically for Gazan civilians until Hamas is gone. 

I think some of us have the attitude of “ride with an outlaw, die with an outlaw”.  Whether that’s fair or not, Hamas came to power over 15 years ago on a platform of armed conflict/resistance to Israel and they’ve never hidden that.  Their identity is literally wrapped up in armed conflict with Israel and they are dragging Palestinians into it, but everybody knew exactly who they were back in 2007/2008 when they won power.

There’s 2 million Palestinians in Gaza, and a claimed 25,000 Hamas members. Whatever many of us may think, Israel most likely wishes the Palestinian people would boot Hamas out of power and expel them from the Gaza Strip without the need for the IDF to be involved  

If in the coming years, Hamas is still in power, a lot of us will have no sympathy for the plight of Palestinians.  It’s no different than the Russian people allowing Putin to remain in power and getting their sons and husbands killed.  Ride with an outlaw, die with an outlaw.

[wildcat09 29352]

Man, what the fuck do you think average Palestinians are supposed to do about Hamas, or average Russians are supposed to do about Putin?

You have spent countless hours talking here about how an attempted revolution by Trumpers could never succeed here, and they’re the most heavily harmed people on the fucking planet. What are moderate Palestinians supposed to do about Hamas?

And your “oh I’m sure Israel would prefer Palestinians overthrow Hamas” line is dumb as hell and has been debunked in this very thread already. Netanyahu and the Likud party have used the Israeli state to support Hamas as the sole fucking Palestinian power for years and weren’t even shy about admitting it.

[statsman 5457]

33 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Take out their leadership and Hamas does not go away. Bomb Gaza and Hamas does not go away.

Show the kind face. Behind every military unit there should be a humanitarian group. Don't build camps, build lives. Don't level blocks, take out terrorists. Do that and few would say a thing.

Dropping a 2000 lb bomb into a residential area just creates more BS.

 

That is a sweet sentiment and I applaud it. Hearts and minds. 
 
Problems:

Hamas militants don’t wear uniforms. They have the tactic of feigning being civilians when it suits them, and breaking out the weapons when it suits them. 
Hamas imbeds military centers and stores in civilian population centers and social service (hospitals) centers. 
Hamas builds tunnels, for militant use, under civilian population centers. 
Hamas uses civilians as human shields. 
Hamas uses suicide bomb vests under civilian clothing. 
 
So, you see the difficulty of fighting Hamas. The arithmetic the Israeli government has to solve- Gazan civilian lives vs. IDF soldier lives. (In WWII, wrt Japan, the U.S. decided 100k innocent Japanese civilians vs. 0 Army Air Corps KIA was an equation Uncle Sam could live with). 
 
Folks are trying to imagine some kind of “third way” where Israel can navigate this mess without significant loss of civilian life. I don’t think it exists. I think, after October 7, Israel sees two options:

1. Say, “OK, Hamas, you got us good! We’ll just rebuild those walls  (maybe a little stronger), let less Gazans work here, inspect shipments more thoroughly and go on with our lives”. 
2. Eradicate Hamas, at any cost to civilian life, and then figure out how to deal with what’s next. 
 
The calls for cease fire (always on Israel, never on Hamas) are calls for option 1. 
 
Problem is, October 7 was so horrific, and Israel is a democracy, and they are galvanized for option 2. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by statsman

[statsman 5457]

14 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

 

And your “oh I’m sure Israel would prefer Palestinians overthrow Hamas” line is dumb as hell and has been debunked in this very thread already. 

I have seen another line in this thread, just as dumb. It goes like, “Why not allow the ‘right of return’? It doesn’t guarantee wiping out or expulsion of Jews in Israel. The nation can be a democracy, and allow multiple factions to co exist”. 
 
(The Palestinians and their supporters have, in fact, never in their entire history established a liberal democracy with protections for minority rights and establishment of the ‘rule of law’)

[atomheartbevo 89656]

9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Man, what the fuck do you think average Palestinians are supposed to do about Hamas,

They can do nothing and see how that works out for them.  As it is, Abbas is 88 and when he kicks the bucket, if they allow Hamas to fully take his position/power, that will speak volumes about where they stand.  

As far as Netanyahu and others dealing with Hamas, if somebody other than Hamas takes power in 2007-2008, then that’s who Netanyahu and Co. would deal with.  Netanyahu is a real piece of shit, but he was always going to deal with whoever has control, including paying them off/bribing them.

9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

or average Russians are supposed to do about Putin?

 

If you are an adult male in Russia, you have two choices.

1. Do something and risk getting sent to Ukraine and coming back as a container full of meat goo.
2. Do nothing and risk getting sent to Ukraine and coming back as a container full of meat goo.

They have elections in a couple of months.  The results are already known of course, but if they wanted to start shit, it would be a good time.

[956 Worldwide 34706]

41 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Man, what the fuck do you think…average Russians are supposed to do about Putin?

 

[bolverk 29671]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Thats the point! 
 
This has been a world of states for thousands of years, replacing world of tribes. Hamas’ is the government of Gaza, heavily in Iran’s sphere. I won’t honor the fiction of Hamas as a “legitimate” or elected government; that ship sailed 15 years ago. It is an authoritarian government. 
 
There are lots of authoritarian governments in this world; uniformly it sucks for the governed. 
 
Israel says that the October 7 attack was by Hamas and they declared war on Hamas. They are being coy; there is no functional difference between warring on Hamas and warring on Gaza. Israel does not accept responsibility for Gazan civilians. It does not accept them as citizens.  
 

Things will suck horrifically for Gazan civilians until Hamas is gone. 
 
 

 

26 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I think some of us have the attitude of “ride with an outlaw, die with an outlaw”.  Whether that’s fair or not, Hamas came to power over 15 years ago on a platform of armed conflict/resistance to Israel and they’ve never hidden that.  Their identity is literally wrapped up in armed conflict with Israel and they are dragging Palestinians into it, but everybody knew exactly who they were back in 2007/2008 when they won power.

There’s 2 million Palestinians in Gaza, and a claimed 25,000 Hamas members. Whatever many of us may think, Israel most likely wishes the Palestinian people would boot Hamas out of power and expel them from the Gaza Strip without the need for the IDF to be involved  

If in the coming years, Hamas is still in power, a lot of us will have no sympathy for the plight of Palestinians.  It’s no different than the Russian people allowing Putin to remain in power and getting their sons and husbands killed.  Ride with an outlaw, die with an outlaw.

 

There is that pesky matter of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, to which Israel is a signatory, that governs the rules of war and delineates what war crimes are. What was done during WW2 only matters in the sense that the Geneva Conventions were signed so that shit wouldn't happen again. 

And, yes, Hamas committed war crimes by indiscriminately murdering civilians on Oct. 7th and continues to do so by using civilians as human shields. Israel is also committing war crimes through indiscriminate bombings and forced displacement of civilians in Gaza, even when they're NOT being used as human shields.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/crimes-against-humanity.shtml

 

While "ethnic cleansing" has not yet been defined as a war crime, the Israeli government's conduct in both Gaza and the West Bank can be easily described as such.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml

 

Fighting a determined enemy without causing civilian casualties in urban areas is hard, but the conduct of a modern, professional army requires them to limit them as much as possible. It's inevitable that collateral damage will occur. But, as has been mentioned up-thread, the willingness by the IDF to throw out almost any notion of "proportionality" is all out of whack.

Meanwhile (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675😞

• 1.9 million Gazans (85% of the population) have been displaced;
• 50% of all housing units have been destroyed;
• 100,000 buildings have been destroyed or damaged;
• and over 20,000 human beings have been killed (not verified but most experts find the estimate credible).

 

Finally, the "safe areas" in the south where civilians were told to relocate to are coming under increasing attack along with aid from the UN and ICRC.

Quote

 

Israeli strikes intensify in southern Gaza.

Israeli forces struck areas of central and southern Gaza on Friday, killing scores of people, according to Palestinian health officials, and sending thousands fleeing, in what an Israeli defense official described as an “essential” stage in its war to eliminate Hamas.

The Israeli military said that it had carried out a series of attacks over the past day in Khan Younis, the biggest city in the south, using airstrikes, sniper fire and tank rounds, and that “dozens of terrorists” had been killed.

Ground troops, the military said, were fighting in an area of southern Gaza known as Khuza’a, near the Israeli border, and Palestinians described homes being reduced to rubble as warplanes bombarded densely populated areas.

Yoav Gallant, Israel’s defense minister, called the intensified strikes an important part of Israel’s mission to destroy Hamas and its weapons caches.

“Our operations are essential to achieving the goals of the war. We see the results and the destruction of enemy forces,” he said.

Hundreds of thousands of people have fled from northern Gaza to the south, often on instructions from the Israeli military. The latest campaign sent residents, some already displaced from other areas, seeking new cover.

At least 18 people were killed and dozens of others injured near the Kuwait Specialty Hospital, in southern Gaza, according to hospital staff members, who said the strike hit a house in Rafah, near the border with Egypt.

The Israeli military confirmed on Friday that it had targeted whom it described as a former commander in the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad in a structure near the hospital.

About 85 percent of Gaza’s roughly 2.3 million people have been displaced, and for those sheltering near the Kuwait hospital, there is hardly anywhere farther south to go. The hospital is less than a mile from Gaza’s border with Egypt, which Egypt is determined to keep closed.

The city’s border crossing with Egypt is also the main entry point for aid into the territory. Israel has continued bombing areas it has told people to move to.

 

 

Quote

 

The U.N. says Israeli forces fired on an aid convoy in central Gaza.

Israeli forces shot at a United Nations convoy of armored vehicles in central Gaza on Thursday evening as it was returning from delivering aid in the northern part of the territory, U.N. officials said.

No one in the convoy was injured, the officials said, but the episode highlighted the severe challenges facing humanitarian efforts to help Palestinians struggling to survive amid Israel’s nearly 12-week bombardment of the enclave.

“Israeli soldiers fired at an aid convoy as it returned from northern Gaza along a route designated by the Israeli Army,” Thomas White, the Gaza director for UNRWA, the U.N. relief agency for Palestinian refugees, wrote on social media. He said that one vehicle in the convoy had been damaged, adding: “Aid workers should never be a target.”

The Israeli military did not immediately comment when asked about the episode.

The convoy, whose vehicles were marked with U.N. insignia, was returning from delivering aid, including flour. It was south of Gaza City when it came under fire, Juliette Touma, spokeswoman for UNRWA, said in an interview. Before setting out to deliver the aid, the convoy had coordinated its plans with the Israeli military and notified it of the routes it would take, she added.

Ms. Touma said that the Israeli military had told the convoy to take a different route, which it did. “They rerouted and then the shooting happened,” she said.

Aid workers and deliveries have come under fire before during Israel’s nearly 12-week military offensive in Gaza.

UNRWA says that 142 of its employees have been killed, among the more than 20,000 Palestinians that the Gazan Health Ministry says have been killed in the Israeli air and ground offensive. Israel began striking Gaza on Oct. 7 after Hamas, the armed group which controls Gaza, carried out an attack in southern Israel that killed some 1,200 people, according to Israeli officials.

Most UNRWA staff members have been forced to flee their homes, and the severe restrictions on aid and fuel entering the territory, as well as road closures ordered by the Israeli military and extensive damage from its bombardment, have vastly limited the agency’s ability to work. The situation has remained dire despite the passage last week of a U.N. Security Council resolution that would allow more aid to reach Gazan civilians and that demanded “safe and unhindered humanitarian access.” The resolution stopped short of calling for a cease-fire.

“It’s very difficult to deliver assistance and humanitarian relief during a war zone when there is active conflict,” Ms. Touma said.

On Nov. 18, a Doctors Without Borders convoy attempting to evacuate people sheltering in a hospital came under fire in Gaza City, killing two people, the group said. It blamed Israel for what it said was a deliberate attack against vehicles emblazoned with the group’s logo.

Two days later, the group’s facilities in Gaza City came under attack when shots were fired while its employees were sheltering inside, the group said. Doctors Without Borders asked the Israeli authorities for a formal explanation and called for an independent investigation. The Israeli military did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

On Nov. 7, a medical convoy of the International Committee of the Red Cross came under fire in Gaza City, lightly wounding a driver and damaging two trucks, the aid group said. It did not say who was to blame for the attack.

UNRWA says that up to 1.9 million people — more than 85 percent of Gaza’s population — have been displaced from their homes, and that nearly 1.4 million are sheltering in facilities operated by the agency.

As it struggles to deliver aid, agency officials say that desperate Gazans facing acute hunger are stopping U.N. aid trucks, taking food off them and devouring it on the spot.

“The very little supplies that continue to be allowed into Gaza have led to very high levels of desperation among the communities,” Ms. Touma said. “So it’s no surprise that people are coming to aid trucks and taking food and in many cases they are eating it then and there.”

 

 

 

 

[InkaUtexas 25914]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

That is a sweet sentiment and I applaud it. Hearts and minds. 
 
Problems:

Hamas militants don’t wear uniforms. They have the tactic of feigning being civilians when it suits them, and breaking out the weapons when it suits them. 
Hamas imbeds military centers and stores in civilian population centers and social service (hospitals) centers. 
Hamas builds tunnels, for militant use, under civilian population centers. 
Hamas uses civilians as human shields. 
Hamas uses suicide bomb vests under civilian clothing. 
 
So, you see the difficulty of fighting Hamas. The arithmetic the Israeli government has to solve- Gazan civilian lives vs. IDF soldier lives. (In WWII, wrt Japan, the U.S. decided 100k innocent Japanese civilians vs. 0 Army Air Corps KIA was an equation Uncle Sam could live with). 
 
Folks are trying to imagine some kind of “third way” where Israel can navigate this mess without significant loss of civilian life. I don’t think it exists. I think, after October 7, Israel sees two options:

1. Say, “OK, Hamas, you got us good! We’ll just rebuild those walls  (maybe a little stronger), let less Gazans work here, inspect shipments more thoroughly and go on with our lives”. 
2. Eradicate Hamas, at any cost to civilian life, and then figure out how to deal with what’s next. 
 
The calls for cease fire (always on Israel, never on Hamas) are calls for option 1. 
 
Problem is, October 7 was so horrific, and Israel is a democracy, and they are galvanized for option 2. 

I am not saying don't do anything. And yes, a ceasefire takes both sides. My point is for every house leveled there is 1 out of 10 who will fight back for the rest of their lives. You cannot eradicate the idea of Hamas. You can kill their leaders and foot soldiers, but there will be more. It is a rough neighborhood.

And I completely understand Hamas' approach. same as the AQ, the Taliban, hell even the Serbs. it is what weak fucks do. And eventually they wear down the democracy and get what they want. In a perfect world the moderate Arabs would go into Gaza and create a protectorate. Won't happen because they do not like Hamas, and in reality, the Palestinians.

[BrazilHorn 6591]

I can only speak for myself in that I have “Middle East Fatigue”. I am in my 50s and for as long as I can remember there has been shit going on with Israel and Palestine. No resolution ever sticks, no accord ever works, noise ramps up every US Presidential Election year etc etc. 

It never fucking stops and I just don’t see where either side really wants a peaceful resolution or maybe in the past 50 fucking years there would be one. 
 

Willing to bet when my grandkids (whenever one comes around) are my age it’ll still be the same shit. 

[Brisketexan 105103]

I can only speak for myself in that I have “Middle East Fatigue”. I am in my 50s and for as long as I can remember there has been shit going on with Israel and Palestine. No resolution ever sticks, no accord ever works, noise ramps up every US Presidential Election year etc etc. 
It never fucking stops and I just don’t see where either side really wants a peaceful resolution or maybe in the past 50 fucking years there would be one. 
 
Willing to bet when my grandkids (whenever one comes around) are my age it’ll still be the same shit. 

There’s a fair amount of this.
Two sides, each of which has a sizable percentage of their population that wants to genocide the other.
You never, ever, ever solve that. Blame whoever you want. Bitch about who started it. Show me all the facts to make us sympathize with one side, then the other. It all comes back to the same result: when more than a handful of members of a society want to exterminate another people, and act on it, bad shit will happen and will continue to do so.
We could pull a Pontius Pilate and wash our hands of the whole affair….and they’d keep killing each other. Forever.
Am I supposed to sympathize with Israel because its civilians were murdered and raped…so in response it slaughters Palestinian civilians?
Am I supposed to sympathize with the Palestinians, who are being bombed by the thousands….when a sizable percentage of them were happy and supportive of Hamas’s murders and rapes of civilians, and they’d like to see more of it?
Nope. Everyone has sown seeds of genocide and death forever. The reaping is horrific, but they keep on sowing.

[bolverk 29671]

Both peoples deserve to live in peace in their own homeland, but the Israeli and Palestinian extremists won't let that happen. And, so, as I said several pages ago, I'm about at the point of wishing a plague on both their houses (if it weren't for all the civilian casualties). I'm just tired of folks trying to justify indiscriminate death and destruction.

[Anastasis 23469]

1 hour ago, BrazilHorn said:

I can only speak for myself in that I have “Middle East Fatigue”. I am in my 50s and for as long as I can remember there has been shit going on with Israel and Palestine. No resolution ever sticks, no accord ever works, noise ramps up every US Presidential Election year etc etc. 

It never fucking stops and I just don’t see where either side really wants a peaceful resolution or maybe in the past 50 fucking years there would be one. 
 

Willing to bet when my grandkids (whenever one comes around) are my age it’ll still be the same shit. 

At what point should we re-evaluate and like really consider pulling the plug on dumping more and more and more arms into the region? I think we crossed that threshold decades ago, but the beat just keeps on and on.