Israel

[Neonmoon 38129]

24 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's amazing how anything international just fucking splinters people's brains so badly. The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 

Fucking American exceptionalism is the real mind virus. The leftists who fall for it just invert it's standard mode, so they think America is the only bad actor in the world. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

It's amazing how anything international just fucking splinters people's brains so badly. The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 

Fucking American exceptionalism is the real mind virus. The leftists who fall for it just invert it's standard mode, so they think America is the only bad actor in the world. 

We somehow got to a place where we have a bipartisan Houthi caucus; the GOP members clearly don’t understand the law or constitution and just want to shit on everything Biden does and from the left it’s basically just about reflexively supporting anyone who fights their own country. Which, incidentally, is why they can find common ground with GOP nutbars like Greene and Gaetz who also don’t really linr America. Really bizarre to see. 

[Dbeasy 15047]

I have a question for the posters in this thread. I noticed that NBC News every single day runs an extended segment on the evening news covering an Israeli tragedy human interest story related to the war. There is a story every single day. And it’s always extended segment. And it never is focused on Palestinians.  And just to light the match, the President of NBC News is Jewish. Is this something to be concerned about, or is it appropriate/fair? I realize there are hostages that never should be forgotten, so maybe that’s justification for it. 

[AnTiM 1666]

My only response is that anyone whose mantra is 'Death To America" can expect that I would would kill them with not a single regret.

[Jatrain 288]

42 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I have a question for the posters in this thread. I noticed that NBC News every single day runs an extended segment on the evening news covering an Israeli tragedy human interest story related to the war. There is a story every single day. And it’s always extended segment. And it never is focused on Palestinians.  And just to light the match, the President of NBC News is Jewish. Is this something to be concerned about, or is it appropriate/fair? I realize there are hostages that never should be forgotten, so maybe that’s justification for it. 

I don’t think that you can connect the fact that the pres of NBC is Jewish with the running of these segments.  
 

But I think that imagining what the outcry would be if they were highlighting innocent Palestinians victims (say any of the thousands of children that have been killed) tells you all that you need to know.  

[Anastasis 23469]

10 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 

This is some shitty legal reasoning, at least based on the relevant legal frameworks. I am not sure it is worthing debating, cause in reality what you are arguing is not a legal basis, and we both know that the legal basis is irrelevant. I don't think that the WPR covers this action, but the reality is that it doesn't matter. Congress has effectively abdicated their responsibility wrt basically any and all military actions, so it is what it is, and it is not going to change. More importantly in terms of the longer run implications are the optics and American credibility. Not sure that they play in our favor, but let's see what happens and how history judges it. Our track record in the region is great. 

[Biff Tannen 45678]

3 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

I have a question for the posters in this thread. I noticed that NBC News every single day runs an extended segment on the evening news covering an Israeli tragedy human interest story related to the war. There is a story every single day. And it’s always extended segment. And it never is focused on Palestinians.  And just to light the match, the President of NBC News is Jewish. Is this something to be concerned about, or is it appropriate/fair? I realize there are hostages that never should be forgotten, so maybe that’s justification for it. 

Dalrymple?

[Neonmoon 38129]

3 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

I have a question for the posters in this thread. I noticed that NBC News every single day runs an extended segment on the evening news covering an Israeli tragedy human interest story related to the war. There is a story every single day. And it’s always extended segment. And it never is focused on Palestinians.  And just to light the match, the President of NBC News is Jewish. Is this something to be concerned about, or is it appropriate/fair? I realize there are hostages that never should be forgotten, so maybe that’s justification for it. 

It’s not fair because it’s only one side, but interviewing people affected by an incident is standard OP. Is it something to be concerned about? Ha, I wish that cracked that top 20 issues with today’s “news” providers 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

The optics of the U.S. Navy not keeping the SLOC open is far worse for our credibility among allies, partners, and potential adversaries than the hit we take among people who hate us already and will never change that stance.  Maritime security is worth more than Middle East public opinion. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Yeah I agree, we should continue actively destroying the middle east. They hate us cuz they ain't us! America! Fuck yeah!

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Ok, I just scrolled up. I don't remember posting any of that. That'll teach me to get drunk once or twice a year.

[Anastasis 23469]

 

 

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah I agree, we should continue actively destroying the middle east. They hate us cuz they ain't us! America! Fuck yeah!

Are you against protecting international shipping from terrorists? 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

Oh. How surprising we have these takes. Almost like this was never about Palestine at all. 
 

 

 

[Brisketexan 105100]

It's amazing how anything international just fucking splinters people's brains so badly. The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 
Fucking American exceptionalism is the real mind virus. The leftists who fall for it just invert it's standard mode, so they think America is the only bad actor in the world. 

I mean…this. The navy is literally doing the exact thing that navies were created for. Against a legit, unarguably bad actor (trying to blow up civilian shipping is bad, and wrong, mmkay?).
Your last para is perfect. As stupid as blanket “American Exceptionalism” is, it’s in a passionate, kinky relationship with “Everything America Does is Evil-ism” - they share a perverse bond of stupidity.
What’s happening with the Houthis has nothing to do with Gaza, save and except as an excuse/pretext. All that it really is, is another example of Iran again sticking its dick in the global mashed potatoes to foment chaos. That’s it.

[elfenix 34235]

[Brian Fantana 6685]

17 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Are you against protecting international shipping from terrorists? 

Of course not. That comment is more directed at the "Middle Easterners hate us and that will never change" comment, as if we aren't directly responsible for most of the hate we receive from that part of the world.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

27 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Oh. How surprising we have these takes. Almost like this was never about Palestine at all. 
 

 

 

FWIW I agree that online leftists are wilding out like complete morons about this in general. I also agree that they are just using Gaza as an excuse and don't really give a shit about it.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

33 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Are you against protecting international shipping from terrorists? 

By the way, is this going to be your new "Do you condemn Hamas?" ?

If so, sorry you don't get your gotcha, I guess.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

FWIW I agree that online leftists are wilding out like complete morons about this in general. I also agree that they are just using Gaza as an excuse and don't really give a shit about it.

I should clarify when I say "they", I mean the Houthis.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

5 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah I agree, we should continue actively destroying the middle east. They hate us cuz they ain't us! America! Fuck yeah!

Well, that was not my argument. My argument is that the opinion of the “Arab or Middle East street” matters rather less than keeping global shipping going. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

Anyway, this whole Houthi shit tracks so well with Russian justifications for their shit. “We have to shoot ballistic missiles at civilian vessels because we are mad at America and Israel”’ is up there with “you let Estonia into NATO ergo we must destroy Ukraine.” 
 

It’s fine to write journal articles analyzing this but eventually trying to untangle the mix of an hostile’s stew of grievance and excuses is a less relevant question than what ordnance to drop on them.  Unfortunately for the Houthis they are a bit behind the Russians in ICBM and associated technology so they get Tomahawks. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Well, that was not my argument. My argument is that the opinion of the “Arab or Middle East street” matters rather less than keeping global shipping going. 

I was mainly just meme'ing, I understand your overall point.

[RomaVicta 29907]

It's pretty damning of our use of force in the MidEast that, in attacking the Houthis, we can say with confidence, "Hey! We're doing the right thing this time!"

Maintaining right of passage and killing pirates is exactly what a navy is for. If our hands weren't so bloody from midadventures, such action might be applauded by much of the area.

[InkaUtexas 25913]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

It's pretty damning of our use of force in the MidEast that, in attacking the Houthis, we can say with confidence, "Hey! We're doing the right thing this time!"

Maintaining right of passage and killing pirates is exactly what a navy is for. If our hands weren't so bloody from midadventures, such action might be applauded by much of the area.

I would agree, but not seeing major regional protests except from Iran. A bit from Turkey, but we all know the president there is an ass.

[RomaVicta 29907]

Just about nobody benefits from interfering with trade. As you surely know, lack of protests isn't the same thing as applause or anything much positive. It will take generations to fix our relationship in the MidEast. We'll probably get off the hook when the Climate Disaster starts fucking things up.

[DDD Dad 14336]

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean…this. The navy is literally doing the exact thing that navies were created for. Against a legit, unarguably bad actor (trying to blow up civilian shipping is bad, and wrong, mmkay?).
Your last para is perfect. As stupid as blanket “American Exceptionalism” is, it’s in a passionate, kinky relationship with “Everything America Does is Evil-ism” - they share a perverse bond of stupidity.
What’s happening with the Houthis has nothing to do with Gaza, save and except as an excuse/pretext. All that it really is, is another example of Iran again sticking its dick in the global mashed potatoes to foment chaos. That’s it.

The extreme right and left both suck. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

6 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

By the way, is this going to be your new "Do you condemn Hamas?" ?

If so, sorry you don't get your gotcha, I guess.

What are you talking about? 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

16 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

What are you talking about? 

Just seemed like you were going for a gotcha there.

[nbmishoid 949]

On 1/11/2024 at 1:59 PM, Neonmoon said:

South Africa officially has a “neutral” stance on Russia’s genocide in Ukraine. They are clowns 

Since the US wouldn’t (couldn’t) do it, someone had to 

[Brisketexan 105100]

Just in case there remained any doubt as to whether Bibi was a piece of dick:

Quote

The U.S. has called on Israel to scale back its offensive and said that the establishment of a Palestinian state should be part of the “day after.”

But in a nationally broadcast news conference, Netanyahu vowed to press ahead with the offensive until Israel realizes a “decisive victory over Hamas.” He also rejected the idea of Palestinian statehood. He said he had relayed his positions to the Americans.

“In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control all territory west of the Jordan,” Netanyahu told a nationally broadcast news conference. “This collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can you do?”

“The prime minister needs to be capable of saying no to our friends,” he added.

So.  We have two sides, each functionally dominated by its more militant elements.  And each one pledging that there side will be the one dominating the region "from the river to the sea."

There is no end to this.  There never will be.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Just in case there remained any doubt as to whether Bibi was a piece of dick:

So.  We have two sides, each functionally dominated by its more militant elements.  And each one pledging that there side will be the one dominating the region "from the river to the sea."

There is no end to this.  There never will be.

Bibi is such a piece of ass and it really rubs me the wrong way that he is so willing to publicly rub our nose in his mess. Trying to imagine the howls if Zelenskyy acted this way. I’d honestly be fine if we just went neutral at this point, although that would paradoxically make things even worse for non-Hamas civilians. 

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

As I've stated throughout this thread, I am naturally inclined to support Israel but HOLY FUCK does Bibi make that difficult.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

42 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Bibi is such a piece of ass and it really rubs me the wrong way that he is so willing to publicly rub our nose in his mess. Trying to imagine the howls if Zelenskyy acted this way. I’d honestly be fine if we just went neutral at this point, although that would paradoxically make things even worse for non-Hamas civilians. 

He only feels emboldened to do so because we enable him to with full throated public support. He has had no respect for us, ever.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

I also kinda want to point out the hypocrisy in his speech and what a lot of people on the side of Israel here love to use against Palestinians: The "from the river to the sea" phrase.

I would find it funny if it wasn't so tragic, but Netanyahu is essentially saying exactly that from his pulpit. The difference, of course, being that when Israelis say it, it's "not genocidal".

[Brisketexan 105100]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I also kinda want to point out the hypocrisy in his speech and what a lot of people on the side of Israel here love to use against Palestinians: The "from the river to the sea" phrase.

I would find it funny if it wasn't so tragic, but Netanyahu is essentially saying exactly that from his pulpit. The difference, of course, being that when Israelis say it, it's "not genocidal".

I mean.....I literally made a post above to call that out.  So, way to ignore shit to reach a conclusion that you want.  Bibi calling for that outcome is exactly the fucking problem, it's the other side of the same fucking problem coin from the pro-Palestinian crowd.  Yes, ANYONE taking that position is a piece of dick.  ANYONE.

 

Also, cracks are starting to show in Israel's war cabinet.  Bibi's popularity is plummeting.  Dissent is pointing out that Israel is engaging in horrific tactics, and for what?  Hamas remains a fighting force.  Hostages aren't being freed.  And importantly, Bibi's team is getting lots of criticism for there being no "end game," no planned outcome.  What does a victory look like, what is your actual goal -- not a vague "eliminate Hamas" statement, but what does the region look like when all is said and done.  Layer on the fact that the Saudis are openly on board with recognizing and supporting Israel if the solution involves a Palestinian state, and it's becoming quite apparent that if you actually support Israel and want it to have the best prospects for a relatively peaceful and secure existence going forward, a path of "don't fucking follow Bibi's plan" is pretty much a necessity.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean.....I literally made a post above to call that out.  So, way to ignore shit to reach a conclusion that you want.  Bibi calling for that outcome is exactly the fucking problem, it's the other side of the same fucking problem coin from the pro-Palestinian crowd.  Yes, ANYONE taking that position is a piece of dick.  ANYONE.

 

Also, cracks are starting to show in Israel's war cabinet.  Bibi's popularity is plummeting.  Dissent is pointing out that Israel is engaging in horrific tactics, and for what?  Hamas remains a fighting force.  Hostages aren't being freed.  And importantly, Bibi's team is getting lots of criticism for there being no "end game," no planned outcome.  What does a victory look like, what is your actual goal -- not a vague "eliminate Hamas" statement, but what does the region look like when all is said and done.  Layer on the fact that the Saudis are openly on board with recognizing and supporting Israel if the solution involves a Palestinian state, and it's becoming quite apparent that if you actually support Israel and want it to have the best prospects for a relatively peaceful and secure existence going forward, a path of "don't fucking follow Bibi's plan" is pretty much a necessity.

My bad dude I honestly didn't see it.

e: I saw your post but apparently didn't read past the quote lol

e2: Also I agree, anyone with that attitude is fucked up

Edited January 19 by Brian Fantana

[956 Worldwide 34705]

It’s far more accurate to say that Bibi feels like he must demonstrate his independence from Washington than that he is emboldened to do so.  Bibi is a populist who answers first to his constituency; it is a common error to overstate American influence either by support or the threat of withdrawing it. 

[Boss Hogg 808]

There will be no ceasefire. How can Israel realistically do that when these are still the stated goals? Former Hamas leader says that they’re more emboldened after October 7. Also notes students all over the west going with the preferred chant. 
 

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

Hamas rejecting two state solution? NO WAY 

Palestinians need to kills these cunts 

[Brisketexan 105100]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:15 AM, Neonmoon said:

Hamas rejecting two state solution? NO WAY 

Palestinians need to kills these cunts 

Point of Order -- so has the Netanyahu government.  Loudly and pointedly, just this past week.

This is a great example of two groups each being led by their worst elements to achieve the worst, bloodiest possible outcome.

[wildcat09 29352]

The problem is that the leadership of both Hamas and Israel belong in the Hague. 

[bolverk 29671]

There's a piece that came out this morning describing the indiscriminate mass detention of Palestinians during this conflict that's tantamount to kidnapping. The ICRC is investigating cases of thousands of vanished persons (half of whom are suspected of being held by the Israelis) but has only been given proof of life in a handful of cases. The UN and human rights groups are saying their mass detention and treatment could constitute violations of international law, including the torture of civilians.

I certainly won't hesitate to say that Hamas's treatment of hostages is worse, but the Israelis are supposed to be the good guys here: Western ally, "only democracy in the Middle East", etc.

Free link to the article for those interested so y'all can see photographs and click on all the links embedded within.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-palestinian-detainees.html?unlocked_article_code=1.P00.9q44.RPeBwbVazKtI&smid=url-share

 

[Aqua Buddha 14593]

They just want peace, better schools, and infrastructure:

 

[bolverk 29671]

18 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

They just want peace, better schools, and infrastructure:

 

 

And around and around they go. A couple of days ago, Bibi's far-right government rejected a permanent ceasefire by Hamas.

https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/hostage-talks-continue-israel-rejects-hamas-demand-full-idf-withdrawal-rcna134975

[Aqua Buddha 14593]

8 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

And around and around they go. A couple of days ago, Bibi's far-right government rejected a permanent ceasefire by Hamas.

https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/hostage-talks-continue-israel-rejects-hamas-demand-full-idf-withdrawal-rcna134975

Why should the Israeli's agree to this?  One reason they likely don't want to release the hostages is they've killed or impregnated some while they've been hostages and they don't want that known. 

Hamas is demanding the permanent halt of fighting, a complete withdrawal of Israel forces from Gaza and the release of a large number of Palestinian prisoners, including some who carried out the Oct. 7 attack, according to Israeli officials.

[bolverk 29671]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Why should the Israeli's agree to this?  One reason they likely don't want to release the hostages is they've killed or impregnated some while they've been hostages and they don't want that known. 

Hamas is demanding the permanent halt of fighting, a complete withdrawal of Israel forces from Gaza and the release of a large number of Palestinian prisoners, including some who carried out the Oct. 7 attack, according to Israeli officials.

Look, man, I'm not defending Hamas, but did you ignore the article I linked showing that thousands of Palestinian civilians are currently prisoners in violation of international law, and many are being tortured?

The ONLY points I've been points throughout this entire fucking thread are:

1. Israel's hands are also not clean.
2. The Palestinians have an inalienable right to have their own fully sovereign country, and the current government of Israel, led by Benjamin Netanyahu, has always been opposed to it and continues to flatly refuse to even consider it.
3. The occupation of the West Bank and the continued increase in the number of settlements (i.e., colonies) both a) is against international law and b) further inflames the Palestinians.
4. So long as that state of affairs continues, there is no hope of there ever being peace.
5. Hamas fucking sucks, and far-right Israelis fucking suck. 

I don't see why you and others have a penchant for defending Israel's government in everything they do when its actions run counter to everything we, as Americans, are supposed to believe: self-determination; life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness; and all that jazz.

[RomaVicta 29907]

On 1/18/2024 at 4:43 PM, 956 Worldwide said:

Bibi is such a piece of ass and it really rubs me the wrong way that he is so willing to publicly rub our nose in his mess. Trying to imagine the howls if Zelenskyy acted this way. I’d honestly be fine if we just went neutral at this point, although that would paradoxically make things even worse for non-Hamas civilians. 

I admire the way you re-examine your position. Compliments.

Neutrality is within the policy options that I would approve of. I would insist on humanitarian aid for Gaza which would be protected by the US and maybe NATO from interference from anyone.  I might even fill the skies with American/NATO planes when convoys or airlifts are conducted.

Again, I truly admire the working of your mind. 

[RomaVicta 29907]

On 1/19/2024 at 11:38 AM, Brisketexan said:

What does a victory look like, what is your actual goal -- not a vague "eliminate Hamas" statement, but what does the region look like when all is said and done. 

Exactly what we should ask of such vague notions as "the war on terror." 

Again, I go to Woody Allen in Love and Death (sadly not nearly as good as I recall it) when he asked of a sergeant saying how Russia must win.

"What do we win?"

[956 Worldwide 34705]

@Aqua Buddha and @bolverk, instead of framing the Hamas offer as a “should,” it’s more useful to frame it as “realistic or not realistic.” And you have to admit that the Hamas offer is not realistic:

- Release every Palestinian including those that did October 7

- Accept our authority in Gaza

- Leave now

- In return you get the hostages that we took when we started this whole thing.

It is not realistic for Hamas to announce, right as they are getting their shit pushed in, “we are ready to accept your surrender anytime, Israel.”  It’s not a serious offer and was never meant to be.

We are able to instinctively understand this if we look at it as we look at Putin’s “peace offers” for Ukraine. By contrast the Israeli time-bound and limited proposal is at least a realistic starting point.