Israel

[InkaUtexas 25911]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

I admire the way you re-examine your position. Compliments.

Neutrality is within the policy options that I would approve of. I would insist on humanitarian aid for Gaza which would be protected by the US and maybe NATO from interference from anyone.  I might even fill the skies with American/NATO planes when convoys or airlifts are conducted.

Again, I truly admire the working of your mind. 

Agree there needs to be a guaranteeing force, but not the US or NATO. It will be UN, maybe led by Pakistan who has a lot of experience (good and bad) with Peacekeeping operations. Air really does not fit in, just look at what Israel has been doing. Bombing night and day and still had to send in troops. Any air needed should come from Egypt or the Saudis.

This is convoy operations, and the convoy better have a mandate to not only show its teeth, but bite when warranted. This has been an issue with UN missions in the past.

US and NATO support as a reaction force on the ground at most, providing the logistics support. The second piece would not need to be DOD. It would probably fall to State and they have contracts in place just for this.

Also, US troops would be targets and bring back the concept we are colonizing, etc.

No matter what the solution is, someone is going to be pissed in a region full of weapons and acolytes.

[RomaVicta 29905]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

Agree there needs to be a guaranteeing force, but not the US or NATO. It will be UN, maybe led by Pakistan who has a lot of experience (good and bad) with Peacekeeping operations. Air really does not fit in, just look at what Israel has been doing. Bombing night and day and still had to send in troops. Any air needed should come from Egypt or the Saudis.

This is convoy operations, and the convoy better have a mandate to not only show its teeth, but bite when warranted. This has been an issue with UN missions in the past.

US and NATO support as a reaction force on the ground at most, providing the logistics support. The second piece would not need to be DOD. It would probably fall to State and they have contracts in place just for this.

Also, US troops would be targets and bring back the concept we are colonizing, etc.

No matter what the solution is, someone is going to be pissed in a region full of weapons and acolytes.

Whatever works. Your plan looks fine to me.

[sheeeit 129]

On 1/18/2024 at 2:47 PM, Brisketexan said:

Just in case there remained any doubt as to whether Bibi was a piece of dick:

So.  We have two sides, each functionally dominated by its more militant elements.  And each one pledging that there side will be the one dominating the region "from the river to the sea."

There is no end to this.  There never will be.

There is a lot of truth in this.  I do think that the Biden admin is being a little flaky in this deal. BB may well be a complete piece of shit, but he told the US what he was going to do when they started this offensive and we supported him right up until the point that we seem to not be supporting him. I think the whole concept of a measured response is simply absurd. This is war for the Israelis. Either one weapon delivered to Israel is too many or there really should be no limit. Our government under any administration is so busy trying to appease every loud voice that we wind up pissing everyone off.
 

as to a two state solution, it obviously sounds logical and the only sane thing to do from our perspective as Americans. From Israel’s perspective, they literally just tried it with Gaza, and it resulted in tens of thousands of missiles being shot into Israel, thousands of dead Israelis and tens of thousands of dead Palestinians. It was an absolute disaster by all accounts.  I can certainly understand why Israel does not want to try that again.
 

As to BB,s popularity, I think those opinion polls are not very accurate. I don’t think anyone likes to see mass killing, but deep down I think the majority of Israel’s are OK with this war going on until Hamas is effectively neutered. The absolute horrificness of the Hamas attacks just steeled Israel to the point that they are not going to stop this time. I hope for everyone’s sake that it can be done quickly and then BB rides off into the sunset.

 

[Jatrain 288]

3 hours ago, sheeeit said:

There is a lot of truth in this.  I do think that the Biden admin is being a little flaky in this deal. BB may well be a complete piece of shit, but he told the US what he was going to do when they started this offensive and we supported him right up until the point that we seem to not be supporting him. I think the whole concept of a measured response is simply absurd. This is war for the Israelis. Either one weapon delivered to Israel is too many or there really should be no limit. Our government under any administration is so busy trying to appease every loud voice that we wind up pissing everyone off.
 

as to a two state solution, it obviously sounds logical and the only sane thing to do from our perspective as Americans. From Israel’s perspective, they literally just tried it with Gaza, and it resulted in tens of thousands of missiles being shot into Israel, thousands of dead Israelis and tens of thousands of dead Palestinians. It was an absolute disaster by all accounts.  I can certainly understand why Israel does not want to try that again.
 

As to BB,s popularity, I think those opinion polls are not very accurate. I don’t think anyone likes to see mass killing, but deep down I think the majority of Israel’s are OK with this war going on until Hamas is effectively neutered. The absolute horrificness of the Hamas attacks just steeled Israel to the point that they are not going to stop this time. I hope for everyone’s sake that it can be done quickly and then BB rides off into the sunset.

 

It’s ingenuous to say that Israel literally tried a two state solution with Gaza.  Nothing about Gaza over the last twenty years even remotely approximates a functioning state - not when Israel controls its borders, food, water, electricity, etc, doesn’t allow it to engage in commerce with the rest of the world, controls the movement of its people into and out of it, etc.  

[Smax 3800]

3 minutes ago, Jatrain said:

It’s ingenuous to say that Israel literally tried a two state solution with Gaza.  Nothing about Gaza over the last twenty years even remotely approximates a functioning state - not when Israel controls its borders, food, water, electricity, etc, doesn’t allow it to engage in commerce with the rest of the world, controls the movement of its people into and out of it, etc.  

 

 

I may be wrong but I read that no one from the Palestinian side has stepped up and offered to take control of the borders, food, water, electricity, etc, As far as I know, hamas has never offered to do any of this and they received 100's of  millions of dollars a year in funding from Arab nations. They buy weapons and build tunnels instead

[mchookem 16327]

*disingenuous 

[InkaUtexas 25911]

1 hour ago, Smax said:

 

 

I may be wrong but I read that no one from the Palestinian side has stepped up and offered to take control of the borders, food, water, electricity, etc, As far as I know, hamas has never offered to do any of this and they received 100's of  millions of dollars a year in funding from Arab nations. They buy weapons and build tunnels instead

Billions if you include the UN and other donors.

[Jatrain 288]

1 hour ago, mchookem said:

*disingenuous 

Thanks, I’m an idiot. 

[Jatrain 288]

3 hours ago, Smax said:

 

 

I may be wrong but I read that no one from the Palestinian side has stepped up and offered to take control of the borders, food, water, electricity, etc, As far as I know, hamas has never offered to do any of this and they received 100's of  millions of dollars a year in funding from Arab nations. They buy weapons and build tunnels instead

Water allocation in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza was negotiated in the Oslo 2 accords.  However:

1.)  According to the World Bank, despite being allocated 4 times as much water from the Mountain Aquifer (the primary water source for the West Bank), the Israeli’s have extracted over 80% more than their negotiated allotment.  Palestinian use has fallen year over year as they’ve been only able to sink less than half of their allowed well capacity.  Israel forbids Palestinians to sink wells in the West Bank (but allows settlers to do so).  West Bank Palestinians are denied any water from the Jordan River, the Sea of Galilee and other local rivers as Israeli diverts it before it reaches the West Bank. In total, 80-85% of the usable water in the West Bank is reserved for settlers and Israeli farming or diverted into Israel. (Cites available upon request)
 

2.) Gaza’s only groundwater source is the Coastal Aquifer.  However, Israeli has install a series of wells along the border and captures much of this water before it flows into Gaza.  They then turn around and sell this water to Gaza.  The water that makes it to Gaza is highly contaminated and polluted and is barely drinkable.  Israeli forbids Palestinians from transporting water from the West Bank to Gaza.  

3.)  There are a number of desalination plants but the Israeli blockade makes procurement of chemicals and spare parts difficult. Of course who knows how many of those are still standing?  They’re might have been Hamas somewhere nearby. 
 

4.) The Palestinian’s do attempt to control water policy within its borders.  The have water policy boards at both the National and municipal levels, however, it’s hard to implement water policy when your main sources of water are outside of your control and limited by another country.  (See 1 and 2).  

Edited January 24 by Jatrain

[sheeeit 129]

19 hours ago, Jatrain said:

It’s ingenuous to say that Israel literally tried a two state solution with Gaza.  Nothing about Gaza over the last twenty years even remotely approximates a functioning state - not when Israel controls its borders, food, water, electricity, etc, doesn’t allow it to engage in commerce with the rest of the world, controls the movement of its people into and out of it, etc.  

there is context here that is very important.  I actually think you bringing that up is the one being disingenuous.
 

I may not have my dates exactly right but Israel vacated Gaza and turned it over to the Palestinians in 2005.  Initially, there were no restrictions on trade. Within the first six months of taking control, over 1000 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza.  1000. Even then the Israelis did not restrict trade. Additionally, there were several suicide bomb terrorist attacks, as well as a tunnel attack on Israel from Gaza. It wasn’t until Hamas became the elected leader of Gaza that Israel really started to take control.

And, the thing that nobody really seems to talk about that much, Egypt also imposed the same kinds of restrictions on the flow of goods into Gaza.  
 

 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

28 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

there is context here that is very important.  I actually think you bringing that up is the one being disingenuous.
 

I may not have my dates exactly right but Israel vacated Gaza and turned it over to the Palestinians in 2005.  Initially, there were no restrictions on trade. Within the first six months of taking control, over 1000 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza.  1000. Even then the Israelis did not restrict trade. Additionally, there were several suicide bomb terrorist attacks, as well as a tunnel attack on Israel from Gaza. It wasn’t until Hamas became the elected leader of Gaza that Israel really started to take control.

And, the thing that nobody really seems to talk about that much, Egypt also imposed the same kinds of restrictions on the flow of goods into Gaza.  
 

 

You have literally no fucking clue what you're talking about, or you're just flat out lying. Frankly, it doesn't matter considering this has been the case since you created your account. The next topic you engage with in good faith in the CR will be the first. Fuck off.

[DDD Dad 14334]

[Jatrain 288]

6 hours ago, sheeeit said:

there is context here that is very important.  I actually think you bringing that up is the one being disingenuous.
 

I may not have my dates exactly right but Israel vacated Gaza and turned it over to the Palestinians in 2005.  Initially, there were no restrictions on trade. Within the first six months of taking control, over 1000 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza.  1000. Even then the Israelis did not restrict trade. Additionally, there were several suicide bomb terrorist attacks, as well as a tunnel attack on Israel from Gaza. It wasn’t until Hamas became the elected leader of Gaza that Israel really started to take control.

And, the thing that nobody really seems to talk about that much, Egypt also imposed the same kinds of restrictions on the flow of goods into Gaza.  
 

 

“Israel claims it no longer occupies the Gaza Strip, maintaining that it is neither a State nor a territory occupied or controlled by Israel, but rather it has 'sui generis' status. Pursuant to the Disengagement Plan, Israel dismantled all military institutions and settlements in Gaza and there is no longer a permanent Israeli military or civilian presence in the territory. However, the Plan also provided that Israel will guard and monitor the external land perimeter of the Gaza Strip, will continue to maintain exclusive authority in Gaza air space, and will continue to exercise security activity in the sea off the coast of the Gaza Strip as well as maintaining an Israeli military presence on the Egyptian-Gaza border, and reserving the right to reenter Gaza at will. Israel continues to control six of Gaza's seven land crossings, its maritime borders and airspace and the movement of goods and persons in and out of the territory. Egypt controls one of Gaza's land crossings. Gaza is also dependent on Israel for water, electricity, telecommunications and other utilities, currency, issuing IDs, and permits to enter and leave the territory. Israel also has sole control of the Palestinian Population Registry through which the Israeli Army regulates who is classified as a Palestinian and who is a Gazan or West Banker. Since 2000 aside from a limited number of exceptions Israel has refused to add people to the Palestinian Population Registry. It is this direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza that has led the United Nations, the UN General Assembly, the UN Fact Finding Mission to Gaza, International human rights organisations, US Government websites, the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office and a significant number of legal commentators, to reject the argument that Gaza is no longer occupied”.

- Sanger, Andrew (2011). "The Contemporary Law of Blockade and the Gaza Freedom Flotilla". In M.N. Schmitt; Louise Arimatsu; Tim McCormack (eds.). Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law - 2010. Vol. 13. Springer Science & Business Media. p. 429

 

[chainsaw 9865]

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa

Quote

Donoghue outlined the provisional measures and how each judge voted. The court voted 15 votes to two on the order that Israel must take all measures in its power to stop anything in relation to genocide in Gaza. By 16 votes to 1, the court voted that Israel needs to take all measures within its powers to prevent and punish those involved with inciting genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

Also by a vote of 16 to 1, the court said that Israel must take "immediate and effective" measures to ensure the provision of urgently needed humanitarian aid and basic services.

The court also ordered Israel to take effective measures to prevent destruction and ensure preservation of any evidence related to the charge of genocide. The court gave Israel 30 days to report back on measures taken.

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf

[Hornius Emeritus 12457]

 

 

 

 

[nbmishoid 949]

Welll, I’m an old but am with the gen z’s on this one.  Oppressor and oppressed, etc.  But I understand and accept Biden’s forced hand.  He can’t be tough on Israel in the election cycle.

[HornOnTheBayou 8921]

WTF Pelosi?!?

Quote

Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., on Sunday said she hopes to ask the FBI to investigate protesters calling for a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war and suggested that some of the antiwar demonstrations are linked to Russia.

During an interview on CNN’s “State of the Union,” the former House speaker shared her belief that some of the protesters are “connected” to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

“For them to call for a cease-fire is Mr. Putin’s message, Mr. Putin’s message. Make no mistake. This is directly connected to what he would like to see. Same thing with Ukraine. It’s about Putin’s message,” Pelosi said.

This pisses me off. It's possible to have some serious moral qualms about the slaughter of innocent Palestinians without being on Putin's payroll.

[Anastasis 23469]

24 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

WTF Pelosi?!?

This pisses me off. It's possible to have some serious moral qualms about the slaughter of innocent Palestinians without being on Putin's payroll.

[Gidnik 3268]

Turns out the U.N. is as anti-Semitic as some have claimed. 
https://www.state.gov/statement-on-unrwa-allegations/

Quote

The United States is extremely troubled by the allegations that twelve UNRWA employees may have been involved in the October 7 Hamas terrorist attack on Israel.  The Department of State has temporarily paused additional funding for UNRWA while we review these allegations and the steps the United Nations is taking to address them.

Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken spoke with United Nations Secretary General Antonio Guterres on January 25 to emphasize the necessity of a thorough and swift investigation of this matter.  We welcome the decision to conduct such an investigation and Secretary General Guterres’ pledge to take decisive action to respond, should the allegations prove accurate.  We also welcome the UN’s announcement of a “comprehensive and independent” review of UNRWA.  There must be complete accountability for anyone who participated in the heinous attacks of October 7.

UNRWA plays a critical role in providing lifesaving assistance to Palestinians, including essential food, medicine, shelter, and other vital humanitarian support.  Their work has saved lives, and it is important that UNRWA address these allegations and take any appropriate corrective measures, including reviewing its existing policies and procedures.

The United States has reached out to the Government of Israel to seek more information about these allegations, and we have briefed Members of Congress.  We will remain in close contact with the United Nations and Government of Israel regarding this matter.

 

[Gidnik 3268]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/27/middleeast/unrwa-israel-hamas-october-7-allegations-intl/index.html
 

Quote

What are the allegations?

Details remain scant. Neither Israel nor UNRWA have specified the nature of the alleged involvement of UNRWA employees in the events of October 7.

An Israeli official told CNN on Friday that Israel shared information about 12 staffers allegedly involved in the October 7 attacks both with UNRWA and the US.

The head of Israel’s Military Intelligence Directorate, Maj. Gen. Aharon Haliva, met with senior US officials on Friday and gave them “specific names and which organizations they are affiliated with, whether Hamas or PIJ (Palestinian Islamic Jihad) or others, and what exactly they did on October 7,” the Israeli official said.

“We showed them that we had solid intelligence from difference sources.”

An Israeli official familiar with how the intelligence was gathered said it was taken from Hamas computers and documents confiscated during operations in Gaza, and from interrogations of detainees and alleged terrorists.

Israeli officials say some of the attackers who were killed or detained on October 7 had UNRWA IDs on them. CNN was not shown the IDs or other intelligence.

UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini has said he received “information about the alleged involvement of several employees.” To protect the agency’s ability to deliver humanitarian assistance in Gaza, he decided “to immediately terminate the contracts of these staff members and launch an investigation in order to establish the truth,” a statement said.

Any UNRWA employee who was involved in acts of terror “will be held accountable, including through criminal prosecution,” he added.

In a statement Sunday, UN Secretary-General António Guterres said nine of the 12 UNRWA staff members at the center of the allegations had been fired. One other was dead and the identities of two others were still “being clarified.”

“Any UN employee involved in acts of terror will be held accountable, including through criminal prosecution,” Guterres said, adding that an independent review is forthcoming.

In addition to the staffers’ alleged October 7 involvement, the Israel Defense Forces on Saturday alleged in a statement to CNN that UNRWA facilities were used for “terrorist purposes.”

Asked about that claim, the agency told CNN, “We don’t have more information on this at this stage. The Office of Internal Oversight Services (the internal oversight body of the UN) will look into all these allegations as part of the investigation the Commissioner General of UNRWA has requested them to undertake.”

In a statement Saturday, Hamas criticized the decision to end the employees’ contracts, and accused Israel of trying to undermine UNRWA and other organizations providing humanitarian relief in Gaza.

 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

10 hours ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

WTF Pelosi?!?

This pisses me off. It's possible to have some serious moral qualms about the slaughter of innocent Palestinians without being on Putin's payroll.

Not if you ask half the posters in this thread or 80% of the posters in the DT thread.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

4 hours ago, Gidnik said:

Turns out the U.N. is as anti-Semitic as some have claimed.

The UN sucks, but try to use your brain instead of blindly accepting statements from the opposition.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

I should also note, that cutting off support to what I believe is the largest single source of humanitarian aid for 2+ million Gazans over the alleged actions of a dozen people out of an organization that employs like 30,000 people is an act of pure cruelty.

[bolverk 29667]

30 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I should also note, that cutting off support to what I believe is the largest single source of humanitarian aid for 2+ million Gazans over the alleged actions of a dozen people out of an organization that employs like 30,000 people is an act of pure cruelty.

I wouldn't get twisted over Gidnik. He makes drive-by posts in here every once in a blue moon but he never engages. 

[Boss Hogg 808]

Finally caught up with my cousin that has lived in Tel Aviv for several years. Married to a Russian Jew that holds both passports so we had a wide ranging discussion. 

 

They were in Berlin on October 7th and I think have only been back to Tel Aviv for a few days since then. Have been back in Texas the last couple months. 

 

He's obviously very pro-Israel so take these comments with a grain of salt. He says even the left leaning Israelis have been hardened by the attacks and are fully committed to the defense. Many of the more “tolerant” Israelis lived in the South, close to Gaza. Almost as a sign of their openness. To then have them be the ones terrorized was not lost on people.

 

In the next month or so, he thinks they have to address the situation with Hezbollah. Says it is underreported in the states how many rockets are being fired still from Lebanon into northern Israel. The amount of Israelis displaced from the north and living in hotels or abroad and waiting to come home is substantial which makes it even more pressing to deal with Hezbollah, in his opinion. Then there's the concern of what happens with Iran when that occurs. Potential for escalation? He only sees conflict intensifying. 

 

Sorry to tell this board that he does think Biden’s state is fueling a lot of this unrest. Throughout Europe and Middle East his mental state is much more openly discussed. In the Middle East/Islamic world especially there is much more respect for the strongman archetype in leaders. It's clear that is not what is seen globally in POTUS. 

 

Might put the Russia stuff in the other thread. 

[sheeeit 129]

On 1/24/2024 at 9:58 PM, Jatrain said:

“Israel claims it no longer occupies the Gaza Strip, maintaining that it is neither a State nor a territory occupied or controlled by Israel, but rather it has 'sui generis' status. Pursuant to the Disengagement Plan, Israel dismantled all military institutions and settlements in Gaza and there is no longer a permanent Israeli military or civilian presence in the territory. However, the Plan also provided that Israel will guard and monitor the external land perimeter of the Gaza Strip, will continue to maintain exclusive authority in Gaza air space, and will continue to exercise security activity in the sea off the coast of the Gaza Strip as well as maintaining an Israeli military presence on the Egyptian-Gaza border, and reserving the right to reenter Gaza at will. Israel continues to control six of Gaza's seven land crossings, its maritime borders and airspace and the movement of goods and persons in and out of the territory. Egypt controls one of Gaza's land crossings. Gaza is also dependent on Israel for water, electricity, telecommunications and other utilities, currency, issuing IDs, and permits to enter and leave the territory. Israel also has sole control of the Palestinian Population Registry through which the Israeli Army regulates who is classified as a Palestinian and who is a Gazan or West Banker. Since 2000 aside from a limited number of exceptions Israel has refused to add people to the Palestinian Population Registry. It is this direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza that has led the United Nations, the UN General Assembly, the UN Fact Finding Mission to Gaza, International human rights organisations, US Government websites, the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office and a significant number of legal commentators, to reject the argument that Gaza is no longer occupied”.

- Sanger, Andrew (2011). "The Contemporary Law of Blockade and the Gaza Freedom Flotilla". In M.N. Schmitt; Louise Arimatsu; Tim McCormack (eds.). Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law - 2010. Vol. 13. Springer Science & Business Media. p. 429

 

Nothing in this post negates what I said.  The unarguable fact is that in the Fall of 2005 residents of Gaza had virtually no limitations on importing/exporting goods and services that were not weapons.  Food, clothing, other goods etc were inspected by Israel, as any country would do coming off of the hostilities, but there were no embargos.  But instead of building up their new territory they justed started launching rockets/missiles into Israel.  Literally within months of the Israeli pullout.  

Also, note to all peoples everywhere, if you rely on a country for your water, electric, technology, fuel etc, you probably should not fire rockets at them.

[statsman 5457]

Yeah, it’s more than 12 in UNRWA. Those are just the employees that actively participated in the massacre. 
 
Israel says there are 190 radicalized employees and 1,200 members of Hamas (technically a political party, although, also a terrorist group). Roughly half of UNRWA have close family in Hamas. 
 
The UN needs to start all over on this, in my opinion. Hamas is not serving Gazans, therefore, UNRWA is not serving Gazans. 

Edited January 29 by statsman

[956 Worldwide 34705]

UNRWA is a self-licking ice cream cone at the top that simply serves to perpetuate UNRWA as an institution. It’s been 70+ years that this temporary response agency has existed. The international staff are out of a job if the Palestine-Israel issue is resolved or even gets better. 

In the middle it is simply co-opted by whomever is the political authority in the territories, as a major source of funding, material, and patronage that is almost wholly staffed by Palestinians it is naive in the extreme to maintain that Hamas was not incredibly institutionally influential. 
 

Israel shared specific information about 13 people they could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt actually raped and killed.  That doesn’t go into the level of cooption needed to use facilities and structures to hide.  It’s far more than 12 people.

Saying we can’t stop giving to it because it’s so critical is begging the question. Hamas has co-opted all institutions in Gaza and holds them hostage.  There’s no reason aid has to go through UNRWA and it’s not unreasonable to send it another way if UNRWA can’t get its house in order. 
 

Also, it’s amazing how the governments that are the targets of protests are the same ones that literally have been keeping this shit show of an agency afloat.  
 

 

 

[Brisketexan 105096]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

UNRWA is a self-licking ice cream cone at the top that simply serves to perpetuate UNRWA as an institution. It’s been 70+ years that this temporary response agency has existed. The international staff are out of a job if the Palestine-Israel issue is resolved or even gets better. 

In the middle it is simply co-opted by whomever is the political authority in the territories, as a major source of funding, material, and patronage that is almost wholly staffed by Palestinians it is naive in the extreme to maintain that Hamas was not incredibly institutionally influential. 
 

Israel shared specific information about 13 people they could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt actually raped and killed.  That doesn’t go into the level of cooption needed to use facilities and structures to hide.  It’s far more than 12 people.

Saying we can’t stop giving to it because it’s so critical is begging the question. Hamas has co-opted all institutions in Gaza and holds them hostage.  There’s no reason aid has to go through UNRWA and it’s not unreasonable to send it another way if UNRWA can’t get its house in order. 
 

Also, it’s amazing how the governments that are the targets of protests are the same ones that literally have been keeping this shit show of an agency afloat.  
 

 

 

You know what I see there?  This: "**Belgium (including Government of Flanders)"  

I've been telling you guys for YEARS - BELGIUM IS NOT A REAL COUNTRY.  IT'S JUST A COLLECTION OF LYING FLEMISH AND WALLOON BASTARDS.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Finland isn't real

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

Yeah, it’s more than 12 in UNRWA. Those are just the employees that actively participated in the massacre. 
 
Israel says there are 190 radicalized employees and 1,200 members of Hamas (technically a political party, although, also a terrorist group). Roughly half of UNRWA have close family in Hamas. 
 
The UN needs to start all over on this, in my opinion. Hamas is not serving Gazans, therefore, UNRWA is not serving Gazans. 

I'm gonna need to see some evidence that maybe isn't directly from Israel, considering they're not exactly an unbiased or even reliable source on information re: Gaza/WB. I'm almost positive we will never see a shred of evidence for this, Western media will report it as fact nonetheless, and then everyone will move on, as is what usually happens.

Nothing 956 said was really wrong or out of line, but the goal here probably isn't to shift aid through another vector, but to end it entirely. But you know, it's totally *not* a genocide.

[InkaUtexas 25911]

A major flaw in the UN system is what he stated. From Haiti to Bosnia to Gaza. If the mission ends, so do the high paying expat jobs. They rely on local employees to do the actual jobs and rarely leave their secure compounds to verify. Their security personnel give little fucks about verification. So your best way in is if a cousin who works there recommends and is the vetting element. The UN sounds great on paper. When you see them operate, like a lot of organizations, you just pour another scotch and say fuck it.

 The aid they need is sitting in warehouses in Egypt or if support, Djibouti or Dubai. They don't get a check and then go out and buy the aid they need. Supply chains for some of this stuff takes time. In Gaza they run the schools. So you think they would know what is in the curriculum and it is pretty openly agreed that it was anti-Israel, pro-Hamas material.

I advocated early that there should be a humanitarian corridor run by the Red Crescent from Egypt into Gaza. Food, water, medicine. Reconstruction comes later. If someone in Gaza needs cement and rebar right not they are probably doing ok concerning the basics.

I am surprised it is only 12. If you are Hamas, the UN is the first group you want to get people into.

 

 

 

[InkaUtexas 25911]

Not a good look at all. I mean if they are locked up in a hospital, block their phones? Let them sit there and eat the crap food? Nah, lets dress up and go kill these three inside.

JENIN, West Bank (AP) — Israeli forces disguised as civilian women and medical workers stormed a hospital Tuesday in the occupied West Bank, killing three Palestinian militants in a dramatic raid that underscored how deadly violence has spilled into the territory from the war in Gaza.

The Palestinian Health Ministry said Israeli forces opened fire inside the wards of the Ibn Sina Hospital in the town of Jenin. The ministry condemned the raid and called on the international community to pressure Israel’s military to halt such operations in hospitals. A hospital spokesperson said there was no exchange of fire, indicating that it was a targeted killing.

The military said the militants were using the hospital as a hideout, without providing evidence. It alleged that one of those targeted in the raid had transferred weapons and ammunition to others for a planned attack, purportedly inspired by the Hamas assault on southern Israel on Oct. 7 that triggered the war in Gaza.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-30-2024-b1ba33c7c0c5c62f85932a20c2a0bc92

 

[statsman 5457]

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Not a good look at all. I mean if they are locked up in a hospital, block their phones? Let them sit there and eat the crap food? Nah, lets dress up and go kill these three inside.

JENIN, West Bank (AP) — Israeli forces disguised as civilian women and medical workers stormed a hospital Tuesday in the occupied West Bank, killing three Palestinian militants in a dramatic raid that underscored how deadly violence has spilled into the territory from the war in Gaza.

The Palestinian Health Ministry said Israeli forces opened fire inside the wards of the Ibn Sina Hospital in the town of Jenin. The ministry condemned the raid and called on the international community to pressure Israel’s military to halt such operations in hospitals. A hospital spokesperson said there was no exchange of fire, indicating that it was a targeted killing.

The military said the militants were using the hospital as a hideout, without providing evidence. It alleged that one of those targeted in the raid had transferred weapons and ammunition to others for a planned attack, purportedly inspired by the Hamas assault on southern Israel on Oct. 7 that triggered the war in Gaza.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-30-2024-b1ba33c7c0c5c62f85932a20c2a0bc92

 

Maybe. But not as bad a look as running into a preschool or a nursery and capping/burning/decapitating the toddlers. 

[InkaUtexas 25911]

11 minutes ago, statsman said:

Maybe. But not as bad a look as running into a preschool or a nursery and capping/burning/decapitating the toddlers. 

Have never defended Hamas. They are a terrorist organization and deserve to be fucked up. Just saying, this ain't a good look. On the DT thread it was stated this might be off videos.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

32 minutes ago, statsman said:

Maybe. But not as bad a look as running into a preschool or a nursery and capping/burning/decapitating the toddlers. 

Buddy, what you really don't want to do is get into an atrocity-off/discussion about who has more blood on their hands on this topic if you're for some reason still staunchly on the side of Israel.

[RDCanecutter 26411]

19 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Finland isn't real

That's up to the Portuguese to decide. Finland is in the half of the planet that Portugal controls. Treaty of Tordesillas out front shoulda told you.

[hobbes2702 13032]

5 hours ago, statsman said:

Maybe. But not as bad a look as running into a preschool or a nursery and capping/burning/decapitating the toddlers. 

Completely worthless input.

[InkaUtexas 25911]

5 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

That's up to the Portuguese to decide. Finland is in the half of the planet that Portugal controls. Treaty of Tordesillas out front shoulda told you.

Fenwick says suck my ass.

[Skipper 6133]

20 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Have never defended Hamas. They are a terrorist organization and deserve to be fucked up. Just saying, this ain't a good look. On the DT thread it was stated this might be off videos.

Why does it matter where terrorists are killed?  If they are hiding out in a "hospital" and only Hamas and Palestine Jihad assholes were killed (i.e., not a bunch of hospitalized civilians) - it sounds like a pretty good operation from where I sit.  Not a 'bad look'.   

[bolverk 29667]

Free link to a really wonderful essay on the West Bank by Roger Cohen. Long read.

“Fear makes us brutal to each other,” he said. “We are the victims of the victims who suffered the Holocaust.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/31/magazine/west-bank-palestinians-settlers.html?unlocked_article_code=1.R00.zuxj.GZOELza4RvMR&bgrp=t&smid=url-share

[956 Worldwide 34705]

The hospital raid is an interesting case that in most interpretations I can see, look not so great for Israel. 
 

First— we have to figure out what rules apply.  Should the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC) apply? Maybe so. U.S. GWOT interpretation is that terrorists may be targeted as combatants in any location, not just in theatre.  So even if there is no war in the West Bank, these individuals are at war with Israel and may be targeted. But this poses some issues with the raid, as I will get into.

But maybe LOAC doesn’t apply, and this is a law enforcement operation. After all, Israel’s Shin Bet and not the military appears to have done this, and there is no war in the West Bank. In that case, International Human Rights Law applies (IHRL). More problems. 
 

If LOAC applies then Israel committed perfidy by dressing up as a protected class (medical workers). If IRHL applies, then this was an illegal targeted assassination. Either way— it’s clear to me at least that the raid is a problem. It might not have been if the argument is LOAC and they rolled in without the doctor disguises. 

[Boss Hogg 808]

13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The hospital raid is an interesting case that in most interpretations I can see, look not so great for Israel. 
 

First— we have to figure out what rules apply.  Should the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC) apply? Maybe so. U.S. GWOT interpretation is that terrorists may be targeted as combatants in any location, not just in theatre.  So even if there is no war in the West Bank, these individuals are at war with Israel and may be targeted. But this poses some issues with the raid, as I will get into.

But maybe LOAC doesn’t apply, and this is a law enforcement operation. After all, Israel’s Shin Bet and not the military appears to have done this, and there is no war in the West Bank. In that case, International Human Rights Law applies (IHRL). More problems. 
 

If LOAC applies then Israel committed perfidy by dressing up as a protected class (medical workers). If IRHL applies, then this was an illegal targeted assassination. Either way— it’s clear to me at least that the raid is a problem. It might not have been if the argument is LOAC and they rolled in without the doctor disguises. 

Something, something, dont quote laws to men with swords. 

As conflicts get more advanced around the world in the near future, these rules and legal agreements will have less and less relevance. I don't have a problem with it. 

[statsman 5457]

On 1/30/2024 at 12:16 PM, Brian Fantana said:

Buddy, what you really don't want to do is get into an atrocity-off/discussion about who has more blood on their hands on this topic if you're for some reason still staunchly on the side of Israel.

Yes, even though 1,200 Israelis were massacred on Oct. 7, I can’t doubt that more Palestinian civilians have been killed by IDF. (I can doubt the numbers provided by Hamas, without doubting that more Palestinians are killed). That is a human tragedy, not a statistic. 
 
I blame Hamas. They shelter, intentionally, among civilians. They launch missiles from Gazan public health centers. They use the civilian populace as shields. If they could wrap their militants with Palestinian babies, instead of body armor, they would. 
 
Using such tactics, they present their opponents with choices:

1. Attack, and be internationally vilified (by anti-Zionist, of course; never anti-Semites) as baby-killers

2. Adopt tactics that rely heavily on boots on the ground, so as to minimize collateral damage to innocents. This puts the troops at greater risk (and Hamas and Fatah have shown that they treat captured IDF like the Comanche treated Rangers)

3. Just back off and go back to status quo. Trade a few thousand prisoners for the few dozen hostages returned alive, and accept the BS story of what happened to the dead ones (they were, in actuality, tortured and killed)

Israel, this time, picked option 1. I blame Hamas. 

Golda Meir said, “We can forgive them for killing our children. We can never forgive them for making us kill theirs”. 

They’re asking for a cease fire for humanitarian reasons. Know what would be better? If Hamas were gone. Then, everyone- Gazans and Israelis- would be better off. If Israel had gone in, not ceased fire, and taken Hamas out, everyone could be working towards a future right now. 
 
The best way to make life better for Gazans is to wipe out Hamas (and frankly, although not a death penalty proponent, I won’t shed any tears nor bow my head for any Hamas militants that participated in Oct 7, when they are put down, whether now or decades in the future). 
 
I know a lot of folks think it’s clever to accuse Israelis of genocide. They’re Jews, see, and the Nazis slaughtered six million of them (and it would have been more if they could have), so accusing them of genocide has a whiff of irony to some people (anti-Zionists, not anti-Semites, of course). It reeks of bullshit to me. There is one side in this war that has stated the intent to exterminate the other side, and a side that has the ability to exterminate the other side, and they’re not the same side. 

Edited January 31 by statsman

[Anastasis 23469]

12 minutes ago, statsman said:

There is one side in this war that has stated the intent to exterminate the other side...

 

 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

22 minutes ago, statsman said:

Yes, even though 1,200 Israelis were massacred on Oct. 7, I can’t doubt that more Palestinian civilians have been killed by IDF. (I can doubt the numbers provided by Hamas, without doubting that more Palestinians are killed). That is a human tragedy, not a statistic. 
 
I blame Hamas. They shelter, intentionally, among civilians. They launch missiles from Gazan public health centers. They use the civilian populace as shields. If they could wrap their militants with Palestinian babies, instead of body armor, they would. 
 
Using such tactics, they present their opponents with choices:

1. Attack, and be internationally vilified (by anti-Zionist, of course; never anti-Semites) as baby-killers

2. Adopt tactics that rely heavily on boots on the ground, so as to minimize collateral damage to innocents. This puts the troops at greater risk (and Hamas and Fatah have shown that they treat captured IDF like the Comanche treated Rangers)

3. Just back off and go back to status quo. Trade a few thousand prisoners for the few dozen hostages returned alive, and accept the BS story of what happened to the dead ones (they were, in actuality, tortured and killed)

Israel, this time, picked option 1. I blame Hamas. 

Golda Meir said, “We can forgive them for killing our children. We can never forgive them for making us kill theirs”. 

They’re asking for a cease fire for humanitarian reasons. Know what would be better? If Hamas were gone. Then, everyone- Gazans and Israelis- would be better off. If Israel had gone in, not ceased fire, and taken Hamas out, everyone could be working towards a future right now. 
 
The best way to make life better for Gazans is to wipe out Hamas (and frankly, although not a death penalty proponent, I won’t shed any tears nor bow my head for any Hamas militants that participated in Oct 7, when they are put down, whether now or decades in the future). 
 
I know a lot of folks think it’s clever to accuse Israelis of genocide. They’re Jews, see, and the Nazis slaughtered six million of them (and it would have been more if they could have), so accusing them of genocide has a whiff of irony to some people (anti-Zionists, not anti-Semites, of course). It reeks of bullshit to me. There is one side in this war that has stated the intent to exterminate the other side, and a side that has the ability to exterminate the other side, and they’re not the same side. 

I don't know what makes you think I'm gonna read or respond to any of that considering how many times you have demonstrated yourself to be a completely unserious and willfully uninformed person with regard to this conflict. Like I said to sheeit, the first time you engage this topic or any other on this board will be the first.

Literally just the small snip Ana quoted demonstrates your lack of willingness to learn about this conflict, and your complete lack of seriousness.

Again, like I said to sheeit, fuck off.

[Brisketexan 105096]

26 minutes ago, statsman said:

There is one side in this war that has stated the intent to exterminate the other side, and a side that has the ability to exterminate the other side, and they’re not the same side. 

Yeah....f you for making me agree with Ana on that point, but not only is there plenty of counter "from the river to the sea" rhetoric coming from the Israeli far right, that faction has functional control of the Israeli government and policy right now.  Like, people in positions of power have plainly spoken about taking the opportunity to wipe all non-jews out of the Levant.

It's a real problem when one side has to deal with a group that is genocidal and has an outsized voice in the policies and actions of their side.  It's a REAL BIG problem when both sides have that problem.  Each party here is being driven in large part by their worst factions.  That's, ummm.....really bad.

[wildcat09 29349]

Shocking that the Russian troll has no issue with ignoring laws governing the conduct of war.

[statsman 5457]

Fine. So, we can agree? We can drop all the (more in sorrow than anger) “genocide” rhetoric, and call this what it is- a war between Israel and Hamas (and Fatah better be taking fucking notes)? And in that war, I’m rooting for a total loss by Hamas, the sooner the better. 

[statsman 5457]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Shocking that the Russian troll has no issue with ignoring laws governing the conduct of war.

Is that supposed to be me?

The things I post on Ukraine here, on Daily Texan, I also post on ON3. The same things.  Over there, I am considered a Ukrainian stooge.