Israel

[Anastasis 23481]

4 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Yes, I know a war crime when I see one.  That doesn't stop war crimes.

Neither does continuing to ship them bombs. 

[bolverk 29717]

44 minutes ago, statsman said:

Hamas gets a lot of funding (and most of its ordnance) from Iran. 

I'm not going to argue or deny that the Palestinians have been used as pawns, but I guess you don't recall the article I posted a couple of weeks ago about how Israeli intelligence, itself, says Hamas has been getting a whole shitload of its bomb-making material from the tons of unexploded ordinance that the IDF has fired on them to enforce the blockade on Gaza.

A refresher:

Spoiler

Where Is Hamas Getting Its Weapons? Increasingly, From Israel.
The very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza are now being used against them.

Israeli military and intelligence officials have concluded that a significant number of weapons used by Hamas in the Oct. 7 attacks and in the war in Gaza came from an unlikely source: the Israeli military itself.

For years, analysts have pointed to underground smuggling routes to explain how Hamas stayed so heavily armed despite an Israeli military blockade of the Gaza Strip. But recent intelligence has shown the extent to which Hamas has been able to build many of its rockets and anti-tank weaponry out of the thousands of munitions that failed to detonate when Israel lobbed them into Gaza, according to weapons experts and Israeli and Western intelligence officials. Hamas is also arming its fighters with weapons stolen from Israeli military bases.

Intelligence gathered during months of fighting revealed that, just as the Israeli authorities misjudged Hamas’s intentions before Oct. 7, they also underestimated its ability to obtain arms.

What is clear now is that the very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza over the past 17 years are now being used against them. Israeli and American military explosives have enabled Hamas to shower Israel with rockets and, for the first time, invade Israeli towns from Gaza.

“Unexploded ordnance is a main source of explosives for Hamas,” said Michael Cardash, the former deputy head of the Israeli National Police Bomb Disposal Division and an Israeli police consultant. “They are cutting open bombs from Israel, artillery bombs from Israel, and a lot of them are being used, of course, and repurposed for their explosives and rockets.”

Weapons experts say that roughly 10 percent of munitions typically fail to detonate, but in Israel’s case, the figure could be higher. Israel’s arsenal includes Vietnam-era missiles, long discontinued by the United States and other military powers. The failure rate on some of those missiles could be as high as 15 percent, said one Israeli intelligence officer who, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

By either count, years of sporadic bombing and the recent bombardment of Gaza have littered the area with thousands of tons of unexploded ordnance just waiting to be reused. One 750-pound bomb that fails to detonate can become hundreds of missiles or rockets.

Hamas did not respond to messages seeking comment. The Israeli military said in a statement that it was committed to dismantling Hamas but did not answer specific questions about the group’s weapons.

Israeli officials knew before the October attacks that Hamas could salvage some Israeli-made weapons, but the scope has startled weapons experts and diplomats alike.

Israeli authorities also knew that their armories were vulnerable to theft. A military report from early last year noted that thousands of bullets and hundreds of guns and grenades had been stolen from poorly guarded bases.

From there, the report said, some made their way to the West Bank, and others to Gaza by way of Sinai. But the report focused on military security. The consequences were treated almost as an afterthought: “We are fueling our enemies with our own weapons,” read one line of the report, which was viewed by The New York Times.

The consequences became apparent on Oct. 7. Hours after Hamas breached the border, four Israeli soldiers discovered the body of a Hamas gunman who was killed outside the Re’im military base. Hebrew writing was visible on a grenade on his belt, said one of the soldiers, who recognized it as a bulletproof Israeli grenade, a recent model. Other Hamas fighters overran the base, and Israeli military officials say some weapons were looted and returned to Gaza.

A few miles away, members of an Israeli forensic team collected one of the 5,000 rockets fired by Hamas that day. Examining the rocket, they discovered that its military-grade explosives had most likely come from an unexploded Israeli missile fired into Gaza during a previous war, according to an Israeli intelligence officer.

The Oct. 7 attacks showcased the patchwork arsenal that Hamas had stitched together. It included Iranian-made attack drones and North Korean-made rocket launchers, the types of weapons that Hamas is known to smuggle into Gaza through tunnels. Iran remains a major source of Hamas’s money and weapons.

But other weapons, like anti-tank explosives, RPG warheads, thermobaric grenades and improvised devices, were repurposed Israeli arms, according to Hamas videos and remnants uncovered by Israel.

Rockets and missiles require huge quantities of explosive material, which officials say is the most difficult item to smuggle into Gaza.

Yet Hamas fired so many rockets and missiles on Oct. 7 that Israel’s Iron Dome air-defense system could not keep up. Rockets struck towns, cities and military bases, giving cover to the militants who stormed into Israel. One rocket hit a military base believed to house part of Israel’s nuclear missile program.

Hamas once relied on material like fertilizer and powdered sugar — which, pound for pound, are not as powerful as military-grade explosives — to build rockets. But since 2007, Israel has enforced a strict blockade, restricting the import of goods, including electronics and computer equipment, that could be used to make weapons.

That blockade and a crackdown on smuggling tunnels leading into and out of Gaza forced Hamas to get creative.

Its manufacturing abilities are now sophisticated enough to saw into the warheads of bombs weighing up to 2,000 pounds, to harvest the explosives and to repurpose them.

“They have a military industry in Gaza. Some of it is above ground, some of it is below ground, and they are able to manufacture a lot of what they need,” said Eyal Hulata, who served as Israel’s national security adviser and head of its National Security Council before stepping down early last year.

One Western military official said that most of the explosives that Hamas is using in its war with Israel appear to have been manufactured using unexploded Israeli-launched munitions. One example, the official said, was an explosive booby trap that killed 10 Israeli soldiers in December.

The military wing of Hamas, the Qassam Brigades, has flaunted its manufacturing abilities for years. After a war in 2014 with Israel, it established engineering teams to collect unexploded munitions like howitzer rounds and American-made MK-84 bombs.

These teams work with the police’s explosive ordnance-disposal units, allowing people to safely return to their homes. They also help Hamas gear up for the next war.

“Our strategy aimed to repurpose these pieces, turning this crisis into an opportunity,” a Qassam Brigades commander told Al Jazeera in 2020.

Qassam’s media arm has released videos in recent years showing exactly what they were doing: sawing into warheads, scooping out explosive material — usually a powder — and melting it down to reuse.

In 2019, Qassam commandos discovered hundreds of munitions on two World War I-era British military vessels that had sunk off the coast of Gaza a century earlier. The discovery, Qassam boasted, allowed it to make hundreds of new rockets.

Early in the current war, a Qassam video showed militants assembling Yassin 105 rockets in a sunless manufacturing facility.

“The most essential way for Hamas to obtain weaponry is through domestic manufacture,” said Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Middle East policy analyst who grew up in Gaza. “It’s just a tweak of chemistry and you can make pretty much whatever you want.”

Israel restricts the mass importation of construction materials that can be used to build rockets and other weapons. But each new round of fighting leaves behind neighborhoods of rubble from which militants can pluck pipes, concrete and other valuable material, Mr. Alkhatib said.

Hamas cannot manufacture everything. Some things are easier to buy from the black market and smuggle into Gaza. Sinai, the largely uninhabited desert region between Israel, Egypt and the Gaza Strip, remains a hub for arms smuggling. Weapons from conflicts in Libya, Eritrea and Afghanistan have been discovered in Sinai, according to Israeli intelligence assessments.

According to two Israeli intelligence officials, at least a dozen small tunnels were still running between Gaza and Egypt before Oct. 7. A spokesman for the Egyptian government said its military had done its part to shut down tunnels on its side of the border. “Many of the weapons currently inside the Gaza Strip are the result of smuggling from within Israel,” the spokesman said in an email.

But the besieged streets of Gaza itself are increasingly a source of weapons.

Israel estimates that it has conducted at least 22,000 strikes on Gaza since Oct. 7. Each often involves multiple rounds, meaning tens of thousands of munitions have likely been dropped or fired — and thousands failed to detonate.

“Artillery, hand grenades, other munitions — tens of thousands of unexploded ordnance will be left after this war,” said Charles Birch, the head of the U.N. Mine Action Service in Gaza. These “are like a free gift to Hamas.”

This gets to my main criticism in all of this, which is that the draconian actions of Israeli far-right policies, led by Netanyahu for the last 30 years, have been wholly counterproductive to peace. Yes, Hamas is to blame on the other side of that, but they wouldn't have the military or political power that they do have if it weren't for the shit that the Israeli government has been doing since the West Bank and Gaza Strip were first illegally occupied.

 

Now, since we're comparing WW2 Germany to the Gaza Strip, we can do a pretty simple calculation here.

It's estimated approximately 400,000 German civilians were killed in WW2. This is from a pre-war population of about 69,000,000. That's 0.6% of the population.

It's estimated approximately 20,000 Palestinian civilians, not including 9,000 Hamas fighters, have been killed in this war. This is from a pre-war population of about 2,000,000. That's ALREADY 1.0% of the population.

 

Edited February 13 by bolverk

['stache 21852]

3 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Is this aimed at me?  

Yes, I know a war crime when I see one.  That doesn't stop war crimes.

Pages and pages ago someone said 10/7 was like a Comanche raid.  It was things like Comanche raids that gave rise to sayings like, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."  Were white settlers right or wrong for taking people's land?  We would have to say that's wrong, correct?

Again, I'm just observing what I'm seeing.  I don't have a dog in the fight.  Don't direct your anger or helplessness my way.  

I disagree with your comment that Bibi's strategy is "to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it."

I don't think deterrence has anything to do with his actions. He knows he's not killing Hamas but civilians, and he knows that nothing he's doing is going to dissuade Hamas from being terrorists in the future. My proposition is that he knows damn well he's creating new terrorists with every bomb and that justifies his attempts to either exterminate or remove all Palestinians, or at a minimum, to keep them oppressed under the guise of "security."

[RomaVicta 30001]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

It will.  It doesn't even require complex thinking.

Just ask yourself "if I was a Palestinian resident of Gaza, after the events of the past months, what would I want to do regarding Israel?"  If your answer isn't "lash out to cause as much pain as possible wherever possible against anyone remotely associated with or supporting Israel," you are lying.  Bibi's plan might as well be titled "How to Create Generations of Terrorists to replace the few Terrorists that You Just Killed, and Then Some."

It's the same type of error we make when we assume a show of American force will cow any opponent. We'll bomb 'em like crazy and pelt them with missiles. They'll be scared shitless.

No. They're as brave as we are. They will become angry at whomever killed their sons, brothers, friends, daughters, or countrymen. They will want revenge and to fight.

One thing Israel doesn't have to sweat out compared to Japan and Germany, no big alliance of America and Europe is going to lift a finger.

I can't even read about this shit anymore.

[bolverk 29717]

7 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Is this aimed at me?  

Yes, I know a war crime when I see one.  That doesn't stop war crimes.

Pages and pages ago someone said 10/7 was like a Comanche raid.  It was things like Comanche raids that gave rise to sayings like, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."  Were white settlers right or wrong for taking people's land?  We would have to say that's wrong, correct?

Again, I'm just observing what I'm seeing.  I don't have a dog in the fight.  Don't direct your anger or helplessness my way.  

The displacement and subjugation of America's indigenous population began way before the Comanches, and they weren't the only tribe targeted. The same can easily be said of the Palestinians and their Hamas "tribe".

[bolverk 29717]

The war has brought unprecedented destruction to the Gaza Strip, with more than 28,000 people killed, more than 70% of them women and minors, according to local health officials. Vast swaths of the territory have been flattened by Israel’s offensive, around 80% of the population has been displaced and a humanitarian catastrophe has pushed more than a quarter of the population toward starvation.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-13-2024-1a0509346f4725ed40d1422808fed076

[GopherRock 1765]

11 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I disagree with your comment that Bibi's strategy is "to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it."

I don't think deterrence has anything to do with his actions. He knows he's not killing Hamas but civilians, and he knows that nothing he's doing is going to dissuade Hamas from being terrorists in the future. My proposition is that he knows damn well he's creating new terrorists with every bomb and that justifies his attempts to either exterminate or remove all Palestinians, or at a minimum, to keep them oppressed under the guise of "security."

Bibi's end result has nothing to do with the safety of Israel, and everything to do with staying out of prison. Everything they're doing must be viewed through that lens.

[Brisketexan 105290]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

Talk to Bibi then.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  Just pointing out what has happened and what will happen.

That, and we killed anyone who thought fighting was a good idea.

Again, entirely false.  A metric shitton of German and Japanese combat veterans survived the war and simply rejoined civil society after the war.  That's a key difference between fighting an organized nation state vs. a terrorist movement.  German soldiers received orders, from their superiors, to lay down their arms.  They pretty much all did so.  Even the same for the Japanese, in spite of the stories of Japanese holdouts (which did exist).  So, NO, we did not defeat the Nazis or Imperial Japanese by "killing anyone who thought fighting was a good idea."  We did....the exact opposite -- we achieved a solution that put an end to the killing (surrender).

Bibi is trying to keep forever war, because then he stay in forever office, stay out of forever prison, and eventually achieve his lifelong goal, forever extermination of the Palestinian people.  There's not a single way in which Bibi is not a shitty human being, and he's fast-tracking his induction into the "shittiest murderiest world leaders" hall of fame.  The irony of Israel becoming the monster it claims to stand as a bulwark against is not lost on anyone who is actually paying attention.

[BrickHorn 18283]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

Pages and pages ago someone said 10/7 was like a Comanche raid.  It was things like Comanche raids that gave rise to sayings like, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."  Were white settlers right or wrong for taking people's land?  We would have to say that's wrong, correct?

I posted that. And you really missed the point.

And yes, Europeans were fucking wrong to steal the natives’ land. Is that even a question?

[Brian Fantana 6690]

Some incredible posting from Bullneck today. Really A+

[Anastasis 23481]

This thread is getting close to ludicrous speed. 

[BrickHorn 18283]

4 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

But at least for the time being, it’s war, not genocide.

There are different kinds of war and not all combatants are on equal moral footing. Just saying “War is hell, shit happens” doesn’t address the issue. It’s a thought-terminating cliche at best.

[956 Worldwide 34748]

It’s hard to see a military objective for going into Raffah and what they want to accomplish. It’s just pushing civilians around. 
 

WWII doesn’t hold here because of the lack of a plan for the day after. Germany and Japan were occupied.  The occupying forces provided security and order and began returning civilians to their homes and began ferreting out the Nazis that needed to go from the people who were going to rebuild. If you don’t like that analogy, then IFOR and SFOR in Bosnia provided a similar framework with the High Rep. 

The issue is that Israel has no credibility or ability or desire to do this. But it’s what’s needed, Gaza does actually need to be occupied for a time, there needs to be a de-Hamasification, and new structures implemented.  This is where Israel fucked up with not supporting a state and then giving this job to partners with credibility. 

[statsman 5477]

41 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s hard to see a military objective for going into Raffah and what they want to accomplish. It’s just pushing civilians around. 
 

WWII doesn’t hold here because of the lack of a plan for the day after. Germany and Japan were occupied.  The occupying forces provided security and order and began returning civilians to their homes and began ferreting out the Nazis that needed to go from the people who were going to rebuild. If you don’t like that analogy, then IFOR and SFOR in Bosnia provided a similar framework with the High Rep. 

The issue is that Israel has no credibility or ability or desire to do this. But it’s what’s needed, Gaza does actually need to be occupied for a time, there needs to be a de-Hamasification, and new structures implemented.  This is where Israel fucked up with not supporting a state and then giving this job to partners with credibility. 

But, … Raffah is where Hamas was holding hostages. 
 
Thats how Hamas operates. For all the talk about the need for surgical strikes, Hamas looks for the population centers and sets base there. Because, Hamas really wants the Israelis to have to kill a bunch of civilians in order to get to them. 
 
As for a day after idea- who does have the credibility to manage Gaza? 

[AnTiM 1669]

7 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

For fuck’s sake. It’s not a thousand year old problem. 

Some of y'all need to stop watching Fox News and The 700 Club and start reading some history books. 

Sorry, maybe you can tell me exactly how long people of different religions have been murdering one another.  That was the point I wanted to make.

[Brisketexan 105290]

14 minutes ago, statsman said:

Because, Hamas really wants the Israelis to have to kill a bunch of civilians in order to get to them. 

So.....I'm just gonna offer the tiniest bit of strategic advice.  It works for chess.  Legal disputes.  Wars.  All the things.

When it is crystal clear that your opponent WANTS you to do "X".....you probably need to do all you can to find a way to do something other than "X."  If we're playing chess, I take your bishop, and you grin when I do so, that probably was not a move that is in my long-term interest.  

That's not exactly next-level strategic advice.  It's pretty elementary, actually.  But Bibi ignores it.  Because Bibi gives a shit about all the wrong things -- none of those things being Israel's long-term best interests.

[DDD Dad 14347]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

This thread is getting close to ludicrous speed. 

Weren’t you just complaining that no one was posting in it?

[Anastasis 23481]

17 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Weren’t you just complaining that no one was posting in it?

Care to register an opinion wrt the ethnic cleansing exercise we are enabling?

[956 Worldwide 34748]

53 minutes ago, statsman said:

But, … Raffah is where Hamas was holding hostages. 
 
Thats how Hamas operates. For all the talk about the need for surgical strikes, Hamas looks for the population centers and sets base there. Because, Hamas really wants the Israelis to have to kill a bunch of civilians in order to get to them. 
 
As for a day after idea- who does have the credibility to manage Gaza? 

This is one of the big problems with Israel refusing to move to a real two-state.  They should have done so. Ideally, trading recognition of a Palestinian state for other Arab nations taking on the birthing pains under the guise of a multinational force and administration. 
 

The smart play would have been to unilaterally announce its existence, pull out settlers, and hand over WB and Gaza to a provisional Fatah government and tell Jordan, Saudi, Egypt, etc. that they get to take care of security and stabilization. 

[Anastasis 23481]

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The smart play would have been to unilaterally announce its existence, pull out settlers, and hand over WB and Gaza to a provisional Fatah government and tell Jordan, Saudi, Egypt, etc. that they get to take care of security and stabilization. 

The smart play, but Israeli leadership is not interested in any reality that does not end with expansion of Israeli holdings at the expense of the occupied people. The objective is to slice and dice the WB up into non-contiguous pieces of land. You shut down free passage, you stifle economic activity, you dehumanize the population, and you just keep moving the walls outwards. The play is the eventual assimilation of Judea and Samaria into the nation of Israel. But you can only run that play when you have a willing partner on the security council that will block any international attempts to intervene, will runs PR interference, and drop you a few billion here and there when you need to replenish the stockpiles. 

Edited February 14 by Anastasis

[DDD Dad 14347]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Care to register an opinion wrt the ethnic cleansing exercise we are enabling?

It’s horrible. 

[Anastasis 23481]

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

It’s horrible. 

Anything we should do about it? Are you comfortable with continuing to fund and supply the exercise? Do you think that we are complicit in the collective punishment/ethnic cleansing/genocide (pick whichever one you are comfortable with)? Have you any thoughts on the ICJ proceedings? Any thoughts on what it means under international law to enable genocide?

Anything at all substantive?

[bolverk 29717]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

But, … Raffah is where Hamas was holding hostages. 
 
Thats how Hamas operates. For all the talk about the need for surgical strikes, Hamas looks for the population centers and sets base there. Because, Hamas really wants the Israelis to have to kill a bunch of civilians in order to get to them. 
 
As for a day after idea- who does have the credibility to manage Gaza? 

 

As just a logistics matter, it's kind of hard not to be close to a population center in Gaza with 2 million people packed into 141 square miles (14,000 people per square mile). By comparison, the City of Austin proper, not including Travis County, is about 1 million in a 326-square-mile area (3,000 per square mile).

Yes, I know it's much more complicated than that, but so is your argument.

And, just to be really clear, I do not in any way support Hamas or their actions, including murder, rape, terrorism, hostage-taking, etc. I'm simply pointing out the fault on that one point.

[Anastasis 23481]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

As just a logistics matter, it's kind of hard not to be close to a population center in Gaza with 2 million people packed into 141 square miles (14,000 people per square mile). By comparison, the City of Austin proper, not including Travis County, is about 1 million in a 326-square-mile area (3,000 per square mile).

Yes, I know it's much more complicated than that, but so is your argument.

And, just to be really clear, I do not in any way support Hamas or their actions, including murder, rape, terrorism, hostage-taking, etc. I'm simply pointing out the fault on that one point.

The geographic context that you have provided previously (dont remember if it was this one or the DT version) is very useful and helps people to understand the lay of the land, and contextualize the carving up of the WB. This is something that people familiar with central Texas can relate to. 

[RDCanecutter 26466]

5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Bibi is trying to keep forever war, because then he stay in forever office, stay out of forever prison, and eventually achieve his lifelong goal, forever extermination of the Palestinian people.

Am I going to hell for hearing a calypso beat behind this?

[statsman 5477]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

So.....I'm just gonna offer the tiniest bit of strategic advice.  It works for chess.  Legal disputes.  Wars.  All the things.

When it is crystal clear that your opponent WANTS you to do "X".....you probably need to do all you can to find a way to do something other than "X."  If we're playing chess, I take your bishop, and you grin when I do so, that probably was not a move that is in my long-term interest.  

That's not exactly next-level strategic advice.  It's pretty elementary, actually.  But Bibi ignores it.  Because Bibi gives a shit about all the wrong things -- none of those things being Israel's long-term best interests.

This is what Israel did for a number of years, as the rockets kept coming in from the south and north; they built an “Iron Dome”, rather than return bombings to the sites they launched from, in civilian centers. How much empathy from the rest of the world did it get them?

What ideas do you have for defeating Hamas, “surgically”? I have one- Qatar could have been so horrified that they turned Hamas leadership over to Israel, to deal with (or better, popped a cap into Hamas’ leaders’ heads themselves). But, they didn’t. Because they are fine with Hamas. The brutal reality is- Israel is surrounded by neighbors that do not believe it has a right to exist as a nation. Furthermore, many of those nations have populations that don’t believe Jews have a right to exist- it’s in their spoken and written statements, and even louder in their actions. Israel, and Jews worldwide, understand that very clearly now. (They have past experience with it). 
 
Everybody wants to relieve the humanitarian disaster by having Israel cease operations. How about if Hamas ceases, and surrenders? Or, its leadership? Why doesn’t anyone ask for that? Oh, because they won’t? That they intend to continue the fight, to repeat October 7 at the first opportunity? 
 
A few people have posted that they know Israelis, and it’s not just Netanyahu wanting to press this war, that the nation has a different attitude about it now. Maybe the peace is going to have to come from Hamas- whether it’s willing or not. 

Edited February 14 by statsman

[DDD Dad 14347]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Anything we should do about it? Are you comfortable with continuing to fund and supply the exercise? Do you think that we are complicit in the collective punishment/ethnic cleansing/genocide (pick whichever one you are comfortable with)? Have you any thoughts on the ICJ proceedings? Any thoughts on what it means under international law to enable genocide?

Anything at all substantive?

I don’t have any answers. I hate everything about the situation. I’m extremely torn as a person of Jewish heritage that is shamed by the actions of the current Israeli government.

Whatever opinions I have won’t change anything either. So there’s no point in me engaging with you on this. 

[bolverk 29717]

1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

Am I going to hell for hearing a calypso beat behind this?

Bibi whispers promises and lies, while children ask, "Why do we cry?"
Injustice thrives on endless war, and hate is what they're fighting for
For power, for land, no peace, no healing hand

Bibi wants no prison, but Bibi wants the power, it is the reason
Bibi has a lifelong goal, but he has to sell his soul
But there will be no extermination, the people want a nation

Sun shines over troubled land, where hate fights for Promised Land
Walls of hate begin to crumble, voices rise, refusing rumble
Lay down the arms, the pain, the fear, build a future, loud and clear

Every voice, a rising song, calling out for right and wrong
We'll break the chains of hate and fear, build a world where all hold dear
Not borders drawn in blood and sand, but freedom across the land

(partially assisted by AI)

Edited February 14 by bolverk

[bolverk 29717]

6 minutes ago, statsman said:

This is what Israel did for a number of years, as the rockets kept coming in from the south and north; they built an “Iron Dome”, rather than return bombings to the sites they launched from, in civilian centers. How much empathy from the rest of the world did it get them?

Do you have me on ignore or something? Did you not see the article I reposted this afternoon citing Israeli intelligence that a main source, if not *the* main source, of Hamas' ordinance comes from unexploded IDF bombs in Gaza? 

Quote

What ideas do you have for defeating Hamas, “surgically”? I have one- Qatar could have been so horrified that they turned Hamas leadership over to Israel, to deal with (or better, popped a cap into Hamas’ leaders’ heads themselves). But, they didn’t. Because they are fine with Hamas. The brutal reality is- Israel is surrounded by neighbors that do not believe it has a right to exist as a nation. Furthermore, many of those nations have populations that don’t believe Jews have a right to exist- it’s in their spoken and written statements, and even louder in their actions. Israel, and Jews worldwide, understand that very clearly now. (They have past experience with it). 

 Jordan & Egypt already recognize Israel, as does the UAE. Saudi was getting ready to but Hamas and their backers fucked that up for the time being. The Palestinian Authority also recognizes Israel, but for some reason, Bibi's government refuses to recognize the right of a Palestinian State to exist. Israel is not in the same precarious state that you pretend it is.

Now, imagine if the Israeli government had realized they couldn't force millions of people to live in a ghetto forever when they should've allowed Palestinians their own land 25 years ago. Do you honestly believe Hamas would exist today? 

Fuck. I'm 52 years old, and Israel has illegally occupied those lands and subjugated those people for longer than I've been alive. 

 

Quote

 

Everybody wants to relieve the humanitarian disaster by having Israel cease operations. How about if Hamas ceases, and surrenders? Or, its leadership? Why doesn’t anyone ask for that? Oh, because they won’t? That they intend to continue the fight, to repeat October 7 at the first opportunity? 

 

As others have pointed out multiple times. You can't wipe out an idea militarily, and one would think you'd realize you also can't wipe out ideological or religious-based terrorism militarily either. Haven't you learned anything from Afghanistan and Iraq? Counter-terrorism strategies include much more than just indiscriminate bombing and bulldozing houses, which we all know will only breed more contempt. It requires a target police action along with aleviating the conditions in which those ideas thrive.

 

Quote

 

A few people have posted that they know Israelis, and it’s not just Netanyahu wanting to press this war, that the nation has a different attitude about it now. Maybe the peace is going to have to come from Hamas- whether it’s willing or not. 

 

I'll confess I don't know any Israelis personally, and I don't doubt that the rage most feel burns hot. But from what I've seen, they are not united in support of the conduct of this war or how they've handled the hostage situation.

 

[Anastasis 23481]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

I don’t have any answers. I hate everything about the situation. I’m extremely torn as a person of Jewish heritage that is shamed by the actions of the current Israeli government.

I know that we butt up over and over again, but I can appreciate this. I honestly can't imagine how hard that is. I get accused of having split loyalties, but have none. I can only imagine how hard these kinda of things are to weigh in on for those that actually do. 

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

Whatever opinions I have won’t change anything either. So there’s no point in me engaging with you on this. 

None of our opinions change anything. The posters on this board are insignificant to history. In this little small section of the world, an internet bulletin board (but the largest political forum in the great state of Texas!)., our posts are worth and accomplish nothing. Doesn't mean you can't chime in with a perspective on our country enabling ethnic cleansing. 

[bolverk 29717]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

None of our opinions change anything. The posters on this board are insignificant to history. In this little small section of the world, an internet bulletin board (but the largest political forum in the great state of Texas!)., our posts are worth and accomplish nothing. Doesn't mean you can't chime in with a perspective on our country enabling ethnic cleansing. 

In the big picture, I agree with you. However, in this community, opinions on various topics have been moderated or have been flipped due to the debates we've engaged in. Yes, it's a small, trivial percentage of the overall electorate, but nonetheless, it's likely more productive than random doorknocking.

[Anastasis 23481]

11 minutes ago, bolverk said:

In the big picture, I agree with you. However, in this community, opinions on various topics have been moderated or have been flipped due to the debates we've engaged in. Yes, it's a small, trivial percentage of the overall electorate, but nonetheless, it's likely more productive than random doorknocking.

Don't disagree. I've certainly changed and moderated some positions over the decades worth of exchanges. Of course the quality of the discourse has fallen off a cliff over that same timeframe, at least from my perspective. But that is a complex topic and I am trying to keep it [serious].

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

Have any of you ever had a “conscientious objector” at work?  I have an employee who married a Palestinian lady. She was a kid when the first war took place, and was forced to relocate to Egypt.  As a result she didn’t get her vaccinations, for whatever reasons because refugees.  Got TB or something and lost a lung as an adult.  Now she is dying from cancer, and he’s like nah, fuck those guys. I’m not doing anything to help them do more of that.  I’m at a loss as to what to do other than hey, I understand, I’d feel the same way.  But here’s your job.   If you want to quit, I understand.  

[PRONG HORN 3155]

4 hours ago, bolverk said:

I'll confess I don't know any Israelis personally, and I don't doubt that the rage most feel burns hot. 

 

The rage of the 30s and 40s burns hot but they still didn't learn some things they could have.  When you get your ass kicked hard you usually learn a thing or two.  You learn that kicking someone's ass is not the way, but for some reason they still feel so entitled.  The Japanese got their asses handed to them in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  The aftermath completely changed the mindset of an entire country.  They don't want to fight anyone anymore. 

Imagine if a bunch of Native Americans did here what happened a few months ago in Israel.  Violence is never the answer, but I would have a pretty good appreciation of the reasons why.  

[BrickHorn 18283]

11 hours ago, AnTiM said:

Sorry, maybe you can tell me exactly how long people of different religions have been murdering one another.  That was the point I wanted to make.

Like “war is hell,” ”these two religions have always hated each other” is a thought-terminating cliche. It’s useless, both for understanding the reasons for a given conflict and for identifying solutions. 

[Bullneck 19205]

3 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

The rage of the 30s and 40s burns hot but they still didn't learn some things they could have.  When you get your ass kicked hard you usually learn a thing or two.  You learn that kicking someone's ass is not the way, but for some reason they still feel so entitled.  The Japanese got their asses handed to them in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  The aftermath completely changed the mindset of an entire country.  They don't want to fight anyone anymore. 

Imagine if a bunch of Native Americans did here what happened a few months ago in Israel.  Violence is never the answer, but I would have a pretty good appreciation of the reasons why.  

I posted pretty much the same thing a couple of pages back.  It seems to have flown over everyone's head.

[BrickHorn 18283]

23 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

I posted pretty much the same thing a couple of pages back.  It seems to have flown over everyone's head.

No, we understood it. We just don’t agree that collective punishment is justifiable.

Edited February 14 by BrickHorn

[Bullneck 19205]

5 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

No, we understood it. We just don’t agree that collective punishment is justifiable.

That’s something we can agree on. 
 

 

[Brian Fantana 6690]

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children

Op ed so approach it with an appropriate level of skepticism

[washparkhorn 9939]

It looks like Egypt is preparing for the inevitable exodus of Palestinians from Gaza. I think it is highly unlikely that Gazans will ever be allowed to return to Gaza if they cross the border into Egypt and out of harm’s way. Israel has given Hamas an ultimatum of releasing all hostages by Ramadan—or else. The “else” is likely to occur regardless of whether the hostages are released. 

The collective punishment of those in Gaza for the heinous acts of Hamas will reverberate through the region for decades. American interests will not be immune from the rage generated by the Israeli government’s campaign against Gazans.  It’s the dismal tide. 

[InkaUtexas 26081]

US proposes UN Security Council oppose Rafah assault, back temporary Gaza ceasefire

UNITED NATIONS, Feb 19 (Reuters) - The United States has proposed an alternative draft United Nations Security Council resolution calling for a temporary ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war and opposing a major Israeli ground offensive in Rafah in southern Gaza, according to the text seen by Reuters on Monday.

Washington has been averse to the word ceasefire in any U.N. action on the Israel-Hamas war, but the U.S. draft text echoes language that President Joe Biden said he used last week in conversations with Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-proposes-un-resolution-supporting-temporary-ceasefire-gaza-2024-02-19/

9 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

It looks like Egypt is preparing for the inevitable exodus of Palestinians from Gaza. I think it is highly unlikely that Gazans will ever be allowed to return to Gaza if they cross the border into Egypt and out of harm’s way. Israel has given Hamas an ultimatum of releasing all hostages by Ramadan—or else. The “else” is likely to occur regardless of whether the hostages are released. 

The collective punishment of those in Gaza for the heinous acts of Hamas will reverberate through the region for decades. American interests will not be immune from the rage generated by the Israeli government’s campaign against Gazans.  It’s the dismal tide. 

Yes they are. A big ass camp in the Sinai. Another exodus from the Holy Land.

[Macanudo 13010]

Can anyone give me a Cliff's Note primer on why we vetoed Algeria's ceasefire resolution at the UN.   I'm too lazy to look up the reasoning.  

[bolverk 29717]

4 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Can anyone give me a Cliff's Note primer on why we vetoed Algeria's ceasefire resolution at the UN.   I'm too lazy to look up the reasoning.  

 

The stated rationale:

Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, said that the resolution would jeopardize Washington’s continuing negotiation efforts with Qatar and Egypt to broker a deal that would release hostages from Gaza in exchange for a temporary humanitarian cease-fire. Those negotiations have stumbled, with neither Israel nor Hamas reaching a consensus on the terms for a deal.

“Any action the council takes right now should help not hinder these sensitive and ongoing negotiations,” Ms. Thomas-Greenfield said. “Demanding an immediate unconditional cease-fire without an agreement requiring Hamas to release the hostages will not bring endurable peace.”

Aid agencies were scathing in their criticism of the U.S. position. Avril Benoit, the executive director of Doctors Without Borders in the United States, called the repeated blocking of cease-fire resolutions by the United States “unconscionable.”

“The United States at the U.N. Security Council is effectively sabotaging all efforts to bring assistance,” she said at a panel on Tuesday with other leaders of aid organizations. “The statements are one thing, the actions are another. We see that a cease-fire is the only way to ensure the safe delivery of assistance to the people who need it most.”

Israeli and U.S. officials have argued that an immediate cease-fire would allow Hamas to regroup and fortify in Gaza, and reduce the pressure for making a deal to release hostages held in the territory.

[bolverk 29717]

Scientists’ worst-case model for Gaza over the next 6 months: 85,000 deaths from war and disease.

An escalation of the war in Gaza could lead to the deaths of 85,000 Palestinians from injuries and disease over the next six months, in the worst of three scenarios that prominent epidemiologists have modeled in an effort to understand the potential future death toll of the conflict.

These fatalities would be in addition to the more than 29,000 deaths in Gaza that local authorities have attributed to the conflict since it began in October. The estimate represents “excess deaths,” above what would have been expected had there been no war.

In a second scenario, assuming no change in the current level of fighting or humanitarian access, there could be an additional 58,260 deaths in the enclave over the next six months, according to the researchers, from Johns Hopkins University and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

That figure could climb to 66,720 if there were outbreaks of infectious disease such as cholera, their analysis found.

Even in the best of the three possibilities that the research team described — an immediate and sustained cease-fire with no outbreak of infectious disease — another 6,500 Gazans could die over the next six months as a direct result of the war, the analysis found.

The population of the Gaza Strip before the war was roughly 2.2 million.

“This is not a political message or advocacy,” said Dr. Francesco Checchi, professor of epidemiology and international health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

“We simply wanted to put it at the front of people’s minds and on the desks of decision makers,” he added, “so that it can be said afterward that when these decisions were taken, there was some available evidence on how this would play out in terms of lives.”

Dr. Checchi and his colleagues estimated the projected excess deaths from health data that was available for Gaza before the war began and from that collected through more than four months of fighting.

Their study considers deaths from traumatic injuries, infectious diseases, maternal and neonatal causes, and noncommunicable diseases for which people can no longer receive medication or treatment, such as dialysis.

Dr. Checchi said the analysis made it possible to quantify the potential impact of a cease-fire in lives. “The decisions that are going to be taken over the next few days and weeks matter hugely in terms of the evolution of the death toll in Gaza,” he said.

The projected 6,500 deaths even with a cease-fire is predicated on the assumption there will not be epidemics of infectious disease. With an outbreak of cholera, measles, polio or meningitis, that figure would be 11,580, said Dr. Paul Spiegel, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and an author of the research, which has not been peer-reviewed.

“The point there is even with a cease-fire, we’re not out of the woods whatsoever,” he said. “There’s still a significant number of deaths, and that needs to be prepared for.”

While it is obvious that a military escalation would bring additional casualties, he added, policymakers should be cognizant of the range in the number of deaths that these scenarios indicate.

“We hope to bring some reality to it,” Dr. Spiegel said. “This is 85,000 additional deaths in a population where 1.2 percent of that population has already been killed.”

[Anastasis 23481]

Witness the decency on display. 

 

[chainsaw 9873]

17 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Can anyone give me a Cliff's Note primer on why we vetoed Algeria's ceasefire resolution at the UN.   I'm too lazy to look up the reasoning.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13523]

Houston Democrats groups in Houston being harassed by anti-semites because they have many Jewish members. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/antisemitism-houston-meyerland-democrats-fletcher-18680543.php

Quote

Once all were escorted out, they began pounding at the entrance doors. 

For 30 minutes, they pounded and screamed. I thought the glass panels would break. 

Roughly 100 people, coming for a regular meeting in free assembly, felt trapped inside by these individuals pounding the doors of the entrance. We had police with us, but it was harrowing.

from one of the people thrown out:

 

 

[nbmishoid 962]

6 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Witness the decency on display. 

 

Agreed.   Shameful.  Each additional day.

[RomaVicta 30001]

On 2/17/2024 at 12:10 AM, Brian Fantana said:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children

Op ed so approach it with an appropriate level of skepticism

The headline on that was what I was thinking of when I opened the thread.

Quote

Opinion: I’m an American doctor who went to Gaza. What I saw wasn’t war — it was annihilation

Anybody calling what Israel is doing to Gaza a "war" needs to rethink things. It's a war in the same way an all out US invasion of Costa Rica would be a "war."

Maybe you can call it an anti-terrorist campaign. Maybe add punitive raid to the description.

War suggests struggle between symmetrical opponents. War suggests that either side might win. Using that word to describe what Israel is about gives that nation some moral coverage that is inapt.

Maybe it would be a war if the political entity that is Gaza had fielded a citizen army to carry out the crimes of Oct. 7. Maybe it would be a war if Israel was meeting significant resistance to their airstrikes, armored thrusts, and well equipped army. 

News entities calling this a "war" do the same damage they do when they won't call other things what they are: Climate Disaster instead of Climate Change. Lies instead of misstatements of fact. Would-be dictator instead of GOP nominee.

Israel is not conducting a war. I agree with the American doctor quoted above. 

 

Support it. Don't support it. Just call it what it is. 

Edited February 22 by RomaVicta

[Brian Fantana 6690]

Calling it what it is just gets you called anti-Semitic.